The AF may have too many awards also

[RiverAux]

From the "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree" mailbag, comes this Air Force Times story about discontent among some in the AF about having too many ribbons and awards:

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/03/air-force-airmen-bemoan-feel-good-ribbons-030711w/

Obviously, this is something that we have talked about in a CAP context. 

If you could eliminate just one CAP ribbon, what would it be and why?

[NCRblues]

"The National Defense Service Medal is what Bugg, the JAG, calls "rock-solid proof that I was in the military and breathing on or after September 11, 2001."

I spit Dr. Pepper all over my screen....

I never did understand that ribbon...i wear it, but...not sure why...

[Hawk200]

What if I wanted to consolidate a few into a single one on the senior side? Is that concept on the table?

Although I've got a few ideas for the Air Force, but that's a different thread for a different site for another time.

[coudano]

I've seen E3 A1C walk out of lackland and get on the bus to tech school wearing 5.
Expert Marksman, AFTR, Honor Grad, GWOT-S, NDS

And ive seen them, by the time they left tech school, having added MOVSM and HSM

So they show up cherry at their first base with 7 (!)
That's pretty ridiculous, you've got to admit.



Catch a deployment pretty quick and shower on a few more.
ehh...

end of the day, those ribbons (well not all of them) equals points in the promotion calculations.
reducing/eliminating them makes the other elements in WAPS count more...



If I were going to drop a CAP ribbon, it would probably be the Achievement Award.
It's just a candy award, and doesn't really do much of anything that the commander's commendation didn't already do.

[SarDragon]

So they show up cherry at their first base with 7 (!)
That's pretty ridiculous, you've got to admit.

Well, I spent 20 yrs on AD, and left with [let me count - 1, 1, 3, ..., 7], yup, 7. That includes 2 IO cruises.

If I were going to drop a CAP ribbon, it would probably be the Achievement Award.
It's just a candy award, and doesn't really do much of anything that the commander's commendation didn't already do.

I disagree. It's something that can be given out at a lower level, and avoids the black hole syndrome some wings have.

YMMV.

[lordmonar]

I read that same article two weeks ago.

It is a non-issue.  Just more of Air Force Times' muck raking.

Is it rediculous?  Sure can be.  But you know your history you will see where they come from.

Too many ribbons....stop having wars.
Too many ribbons....tell the VFW to stop forcing congress to force the services to award useless medals. (the NDSM was pushed on the services by the VFW and AL).
Too many ribbons....tell the Army to stop dictating how the AF can award them (the GWOT service Medal was created so that AF guys get credit for doing their service outside the "AOR").
Too many ribbons....then we go like the Army does and put some of our ribbons on our sleeves and add more danglies to our unifoms (Longevity and overseas ribbons are worn as hash marks on the army uniforms, marksman ribbon is a bloody target on the army uniform).

Ribbons......are there for a reason.  They help motivate people (to an extent), they tell a story of your career, and they help recognise top performers.
Some one out of tech school with 7 ribbons.......that means he was in the top of his BMT class, is better than average shot with the M-16/M-4, got stuck at Keesler after a major hurricane and spent long hours helping the community putting self back together and then got off his butt in his over abundant spare time and went out into the community and help out his city, state and nation.

So....this exeptional Airman who is clearly above and beyond all the rest (everyone else only has three ribbons) has a ribbon rack that tells a story.

I will say that the navy and marines never fell for a lot of this "let's give everyone a ribbon" thing.......but they too have ribbon.....and for the most part they give them out for the same reason....NDSM, GWOT-S, MOSVM.

So where is the problem?  A bunch of old timers who have a ton of medals complaining that they don't care about the "give aways"? 

Anyone remember when they did away with the Good Conduct Medal?

The same people were up in arms about that.

The USAF can't win for loosing.

[SARDOC]

I would get rid of the Red Service Ribbon.

[coudano]

I disagree. It's something that can be given out at a lower level, and avoids the black hole syndrome some wings have.

YMMV.

it 'avoids' it by giving a lower calibur award
lower calibur award sort of inherrently equals less prestigious
and easier to get
thus, candy.

IOW, where I feel a commendation is merited, an achievement award simply won't do.
performances that don't measure up to a commander's commendation, imho, deserve a pat on the back.
and maybe i'll buy you a beer (if you are of age) offline, sometime.

personally rather than avoiding a stupid process at wing+, i'd rather they fixed the awards and decs process (namely putting it entirely in e-services with electronic approval)
nothing submitted ever gets "lost" it always sits out there in queue
then make it a CI inspection item to clear the electronic awards queue (no item may sit in queue longer than, say, 90 days)
this would *fix* the black hole at wing, and no longer cause a need for it to be avoided.

And people's awards and decs (along with supporting documentation) would be in their e-services profile.

**I'd also consider adding a national "awards and decs" committee, to sort of fill the role of AFPC
this would "ensure" that all awards met a common baseline in terms of citation/award appropriateness
the committee might have 1 person from each region on it serving 1 year terms;
and a person may not 'vote' on awards being submitted for members in their own region.
their job would be to universally take a first pass at an award submittal and come back with
1.  This nomination meets criteria for the award and is properly formatted
2.  This nomination does not meet criteria for the award / or is not properly formatted (specify one or both)
And opportunity to add a Comment:  maybe this citation would be better suited to a different award X,Y,Z

If 1, forward it to command queue for approval/rejection.
If 2, bounce it back to the nominator, for fixing and possible resubmission

Any rejection (by committee or command chain) must be dated, and noted with a specific reason for rejection that goes on record.

[RiverAux]

What if I wanted to consolidate a few into a single one on the senior side? Is that concept on the table?

Approved for discussion 

[lordmonar]

The pat on the back is called an acheivment award.

I don't see a problem with that.

I mean if we are talking about elminating awards.....why not the Level membership, training, Loring, Garber and Wilson awards?  I man a Capt must have his taining ribbon right?

What about the Curry through Spaatz?  A C/Lt Col has his Eaker right?
Encampment
CAC
Red Service.

Heck why give out any?

Save a life.....I mean jump into a rushing river sort of save a life.......just a pat on the back should be good enough?

Ribbons as motivation?  We we should not be motivated to do things for something as petty as a piece of cloth right?

No.

We give ribbons to recognise outstanding performance.  A C/Amn does great work as a C/Amn he does not need an MSM or a Commanders Comm.....but he deserves something.  That way we reward good behavior and that behavior will continue.

We fail to reward or reward unevenly (as the system stands now) and then we dull a great tool.

It is intresting to see we attack a lot of ribbons as unnecessary.....but what about other things....like wings.  Why give wings to pilots?  I mean it's just their job right?
Why give out master rating shields for CP, ES, AES, et al?  Isn't that what they get "paid" for? 

While I do agree that CAP allows too much junk on the uniforms (pick two wings/sheld and call it a day for Christ's sake).....but I don't think we should not give out awards.

[Hawk200]

What if I wanted to consolidate a few into a single one on the senior side? Is that concept on the table?

Approved for discussion 

I see your approval, and here goes.

Ditch all the Level ribbons for seniors, except for the Gil Robb Wilson, go with single ribbon with attachments. Four consolidated into one. The Gil Robb Wilson is pretty unique, not everyone gets it, the distinction would make it worth keeping.

[lordmonar]

What if I wanted to consolidate a few into a single one on the senior side? Is that concept on the table?

Approved for discussion 

And the cadet side as well.

Change the Level 1-4 ribbons into one CAP Senior PD ribbon with oak leaf clusters.
Change the Cadet Curry through Eaker to just one Ribbon with Oak Leaf Clusters (just four one for each phase).
Change the recruiting ribbon to just one for both seniors and cadets.
Change the SAR, CD and HLS ribbons to just one Aerial Achievement Medal (add a Ground Team and Mission Base Achievment Ribbons to recognise their contribution to the mission).
Eliminate the Crossfield Ribbon all together.
Elimnate the NCC and NCDC ribbons (allow them to wear the NCSA ribbon instead and award the winners at each eschelon an appropriate award, acheivement at wing, commander's comm at region and a nat commander comm at national).
Elimnate the non CAP ribbons (VFW, AFSA, AFA and change them to a Cadet of the year award/cord).
Eliminat the silver and bronze medal of valor and just change it to a single medal (CAP Cross?)

We do give out a lot of ribbons....and we could clean them up a little.  But we should not be looking at eliminating too many.  We need to standardise and train our people on what the standards are for each award and use them consitantly and often.

You do good work....you should be recognised.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

As a cadet I did hate having a ribbon for each and every grade I achieved, I think something along the lines of one ribbon per milestone for cadets, until the Mitchell, and one ribbon for every other milestone for seniors should suffice. The commendations, though are a good thing. They do help to ensure that those who should be recognized are.

So far as how the Army goes, I was extremely proud of having a wreath around a target with a couple of danglies on it. I was extremely proud of my service stripes and my combat stripes, and I am still proud of my ARCOMs, ICM and ACM with stars, NATO, Good Conduct, and my Over Seas (2) ribbons, so I still wear them. I am the most proud of my CIB and AASLT wings, my CIB will never leave my chest so long as I am able to wear the Blues, and even then, I have a CIB and AASLT wings tattooed on me.

So far as CAP goes, I am very proud of my lifesaving, Yeager, and Mitchell, so I wear them as well. I am also very proud of my GT badge, so I wear it right under my CIB. I wear everything that I am allowed to wear. Why? because it is my resume. It shows where I have been and what I have done. More importantly than showing others where I have been, it always reminds me of what I have done, and where I have been and the things that I have seen. I wear them proudly for myself. I guess that you could say I have a huge ego because of the way I view my ribbons and awards, but hey, that is just the way it is.

Yes, I wish I could still wear my expert marksmanship badge, and my AASLT wings, and my combat stripes, but, oh well, I will just leave them framed, I also wish I could still wear my combat service badge on the right side of my chest, I also wish I could wear my old unit crest, Mostly I want my Infantry Cord, Crossed Rifles, and I'll take my French Fourragere. I have that sort of stuff tattooed on me, so I will never forget any of it. It is more than just a resume for others to look at, it is something for you, the recipient, to be proud of as well.

[RiverAux]

I think keeping the Red Service ribbon would be okay, but only if they upped the time it took to earn it from 2 to 10 years. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I think keeping the Red Service ribbon would be okay, but only if they upped the time it took to earn it from 2 to 10 years.

Maybe instead of ten years, make it more like our good conduct medal. Make it three or four years with no negative actions.

[Major Carrales]

I think keeping the Red Service ribbon would be okay, but only if they upped the time it took to earn it from 2 to 10 years.

Maybe instead of ten years, make it more like our good conduct medal. Make it three or four years with no negative actions.

Sorry, friend, but that is ridiculous.  The Red Service ribbon goes all the way back to our Civil Defense days where there was also Blue and Green Service, it should remain a longevity award.  Initially it was issued for "hours" of service during wartime.

Considering that negative actions of a nature mentioned are dealt with a CAPF 2b,  what would the good conduct medal concept serve? 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Considering that negative actions of a nature mentioned are dealt with a CAPF 2b,  what would the good conduct medal concept serve?

So no matter what the infraction you issue a 2B? For cadets it would also include meeting the minimum number of achievements for the term of service.

For both senior members and cadets it is also attending meetings and other activities frequently. And consistently training in their specialty fields.

[RiverAux]

I think keeping the Red Service ribbon would be okay, but only if they upped the time it took to earn it from 2 to 10 years.

Maybe instead of ten years, make it more like our good conduct medal. Make it three or four years with no negative actions.

Well, you can almost consider the Red Service ribbon a good conduct medal since it is awarded to those "in good standing".  This isn't defined in the regulation, but I suppose if you wanted to be a hard case you could deny it to someone that has had some sort of negative action on their record.  Don't know if that would hold up after review though. 

[Major Carrales]

Considering that negative actions of a nature mentioned are dealt with a CAPF 2b,  what would the good conduct medal concept serve?

So no matter what the infraction you issue a 2B? For cadets it would also include meeting the minimum number of achievements for the term of service.

For both senior members and cadets it is also attending meetings and other activities frequently. And consistently training in their specialty fields.

Serious issues involving violations of the Core Values require this.   Other punishments involve a drop in grade.  CAP is not like the US Army where the Uniform Code of Military Justice doles out judicial and non-judicial punishments.

Keeping track of such things would be a nightmare unless it was an automatic feature of e-services that reported it from e-services. 

Again, identifying was an "active" member is would be critical.  Some people have to take sabbaticals for life...the idea of a "good conduct medal" for CAP does not jive with how it works. 

BTW, all CAP members are expected to be in good standing at all times.

[Eclipse]

For cadets it would also include meeting the minimum number of achievements for the term of service.

When the program is adhered to properly a cadet's reward for proper attendance and activity is being allowed to remain a member and progression.

For both senior members and cadets it is also attending meetings and other activities frequently. And consistently training in their specialty fields.

Seriously.  In what esteem is the CGCM held?

We don't reward people for meeting the barest expectations of membership.  Active members get plenty of bling.  With this attitude we might as well
send ribbons in the mail with renewal cards.

Edit: Fixed...Meant Good Conduct Medal.