Dropping Brown Shirts?

[DC]

I was just browsing through some pictures from the FLWG Summer Encampment. I couldn't help but cringe upon seeing photos like this:

Undershirts: Brown or black. Either V-neck, U-neck, crew neck or athletic style
without pockets. Black or brown turtlenecks, dickeys, or thermal
undershirts without pockets may also be worn. EXCEPTION:
members may wear white thermal undershirts even if exposed at neck.
Unit commanders may prescribe color, unit designation, and cloth or
silk screen emblem, to be worn on left side of chest not to exceed 5
inches in diameter.

Since 39-1 is typically vague on the subject and the military no longer uses the 'Army Brown' color that was generally assumed to be the standard, why not just drop the brown t-shirt option? It would solve the issue depicted above AND finally put an end to the 'black shirts for staff/encampment graduates/<insert special group here> only' silliness that some units engage in.

Plain black t-shirts are also far easier to find and generally cheaper than colored shirts.

EDIT: I just noticed in the quote: V-necks with BDUs? WTF. That would look ridiculous.

[Thunder]

I'd like to see where it says any color shirt is acceptable BDU uniform attire. My understanding is that the BDU jacket stays on, period. You can roll up the sleeves according to specs, but no dressing down.

[davidsinn]

I'd like to see where it says any color shirt is acceptable BDU uniform attire. My understanding is that the BDU jacket stays on, period. You can roll up the sleeves according to specs, but no dressing down.

You must live up north somewhere. It get's hot here. Like pushing 100 this week with nasty humidity. I can only imagine what the southerners have to deal with. You will remove your BDU top if you do anything more than stand in one place for five minutes. Plus there is the simple fact that the tshirt is visible at the collar.

[FlyTiger77]

There is a school of thought that you are better with the BDU blouse on regardless of the temperature. In most places, the Army now subscribes to that school of thought.

[DC]

I'd like to see where it says any color shirt is acceptable BDU uniform attire. My understanding is that the BDU jacket stays on, period. You can roll up the sleeves according to specs, but no dressing down.

You must live up north somewhere. It get's hot here. Like pushing 100 this week with nasty humidity. I can only imagine what the southerners have to deal with. You will remove your BDU top if you do anything more than stand in one place for five minutes. Plus there is the simple fact that the tshirt is visible at the collar.

The high for the week was 105 with 97% humidity. That's miserable no matter how much you are or are not wearing.

Not real relevant to my OP though...

[MSG Mac]

I believe that the FLWG Encampment mandated black T-shirts for staff and brown for attendess.   

[NIN]

Not only that, but some of those old brown shirts discolor in the absolute worst way. I've seen brown shirts that were nowhere near brown after 2-3 washings.

[Hawk200]

I believe that the FLWG Encampment mandated black T-shirts for staff and brown for attendess.

I've seen that thought come back from a lot of encampments, and it's stupid. It's especially stupid when people keep saying, "It's in the regulations!" So far, no one has been able to show it to me. When they can't, I tell them that not being able to back something up is perpetuating a lie. I seriously dislike rule manufacturers.

[DakRadz]

GAWG did much the same thing. What did this accomplish?

Not a whole lot, since we also had specific "Flight Caps" with colors AND embroidered flight letter: A-FLT, B-FLT, etc.

Also, it meant myself and every other cadet in my unit (and many in the Wing) had to spend more money on brown shirts, which Wal-Mart does not carry... We did get a good deal, but guess how many black shirts we had? Yeah, plenty.

[Thunder]

From CAPM39-1 (and I just noticed OP edited and inserted this as well)

Cotton and nylon twill or rip-stop cotton; single-breasted with four
bellow pockets with flaps; straight-cut bottom sleeve tabs, and side body
panels with or without take-up tabs. Long sleeve camouflage pattern
(woodland green) may be rolled up; if rolled up, sleeve material must
match shirt and will touch or come within 1 inch of forearms when arm
is bent at a 90-degree angle; may be removed in the immediate work
area. When removed, T-shirt (other than athletic or sleeveless style)
will be worn. Military creases are prohibited.

(Undershirts) Brown or black. Either V-neck, U-neck, crew neck or athletic style
without pockets. Black or brown turtlenecks, dickeys, or thermal
undershirts without pockets may also be worn. EXCEPTION:
members may wear white thermal undershirts even if exposed at neck.
Unit commanders may prescribe color, unit designation, and cloth or
silk screen emblem, to be worn on left side of chest not to exceed 5
inches in diameter

[Patterson]

Perhaps moving to the color now authorized by the Air Force for the ABU's, along with Black T-Shirts would work??  Also add the boots. 

[Eclipse]

One color for all - pick it and move one.  Allowing for options solves nothing from a uniformity standpoint, because you will always
have a spectrum of materials and shades.  If uniformity is not a concern, then specifying a color at all, for the t-shirt, is a waste of time.

The prescription should be changed to black for all operational uniforms.  Nothing looks worse than a white t-shirt under the BBDU's, especially if it has been a while since the shirt was really "white".  Even if we went to ABU's black would look fine.

You can get black shirts anywhere and everywhere they sell clothes, and you would be hard-pressed to find a anyone who doesn't own at least one black t-shirt, especially cadet-age kids.

With that said, if you say "black", you'll have formations with 12 shades of black.

[Seabee219]

When I was in the Seabees, we used brown t-shirts, but they had to be in good shape and the same shade of brown. Not sure if they did away with that color yet, as I am not up with the times of military attire.

[MIKE]

When I was in the Seabees, we used brown t-shirts, but they had to be in good shape and the same shade of brown. Not sure if they did away with that color yet, as I am not up with the times of military attire.

AG Shade 436 undershirts may not be going away just yet for you purists:

The prescription should be changed to black for all operational uniforms.  Nothing looks worse than a white t-shirt under the BBDU's, especially if it has been a while since the shirt was really "white".  Even if we went to ABU's black would look fine.

I think matching blue looks better than black with the CAP Field Uniform, but I wear ODUs... not BBDUs. 

[Ned]

As a staff officer, my job is to support commanders in the reasonable exercise of their discretion.

If an activity commander decides that a particular color t-shirt (permitted by 39-1) is supportive of her/his training goals, then I will support that decision.

In my view it is poor form to publicly sharpshoot specific commanders for the proper exercise of her/his discretion.  You or I might have made a different decision, but that's just Monday Morning quarterbacking.

If you have a chance to speak with the officer privately, by all means exchange views and constructive criticisms.  That's how we all learn.  But it just doesn't seem helpful or respectful to do so in a public forum such as this, particularly if it is unlikely that the commander in question will see it.

YMMV.

And of course there is certainly nothing wrong with a generic discussion of what color t-shirts should be worn with BDUs (BBDUs, ABUs, whatever).  Heck, that/s what we do about 82% of the time here on CT.  But that is different from stating that a specific commander's policy is "stupid" just because we disagree with it.

Ned Lee

[Hawk200]

But that is different from stating that a specific commander's policy is "stupid" just because we disagree with it.

If that was in reference to my post, I didn't write of commanders putting forth a directive. My problem is when people decide to make a standardized uniform item distinctive by attempting to tell others they can't wear it. That's wrong.

Every single person that I have challenged on the "black tshirts are only for staff" can't back it up. I've asked the wing commander about it, he doesn't know what they're talking about. Neither do the group COs. No one in the chain validates it. It's not in the uniform manual, it's not in any supplements, even the encampment documentation doesn't have it. The supposed rule can't be shown in regulations by those claiming it exists. I've actually looked for it, it's not there.

If you claim something is in regulations when it is not, it's lying. If "somebody told you", then it shouldn't really be a problem for them to show you. As the expression goes: "Trust, but verify."

As far as black T-shirts go, you can pick them up at Walmart. There is no practical reason to restrict a readily available and CAP wide authorized uniform item to just "staff". It doesn't serve any valid purpose.

If people have to have their distinctiveness at encampment, I can think of other ways.

[Ned]

If that was in reference to my post, I didn't write of commanders putting forth a directive. My problem is when people decide to make a standardized uniform item distinctive by attempting to tell others they can't wear it. That's wrong.

But I suspect we would agree that - since the "black shirts for staff" thing is not in the 39-1, and therefore can only be implemented by a commander - commanders can and routinely do set UOD standards.  Why do you think commanders are not entitled to specify t-shirt colors from amongst the available choices in the 39-1?

Every single person that I have challenged on the "black tshirts are only for staff" can't back it up. I've asked the wing commander about it, he doesn't know what they're talking about. Neither do the group COs. No one in the chain validates it. It's not in the uniform manual, it's not in any supplements, even the encampment documentation doesn't have it. The supposed rule can't be shown in regulations by those claiming it exists. I've actually looked for it, it's not there.

If you claim something is in regulations when it is not, it's lying. If "somebody told you", then it shouldn't really be a problem for them to show you. As the expression goes: "Trust, but verify."

Again, what is wrong with an encampment commander specifying "black t-shirts for staff" if  she decides is that it would be helpful in meeting her encampment objectives?

As far as black T-shirts go, you can pick them up at Walmart. There is no practical reason to restrict a readily available and CAP wide authorized uniform item to just "staff". It doesn't serve any valid purpose.

Strong personal opinion noted. 

But let me suggest a couple of potentially valid purposes.

1.  It has certainly been my experience (30+ encampments as everything from basic cadet to encampment commander in a large wing) that most cadets have brown t-shirts for their BDUs.  Obviously local practices/preferences may differ in different wings, but if most cadets already have brown t-shirts, why would I want to make them buy black ones, even if they are readily available at Wallmart?  Isn't having uniformity at formations and during training a "valid purpose?" 

2.  Judging by the photograph posted above, at least some encampments in warmer wings may involve brief periods of time when the cadets have removed their BDU blouses for ORM/heat injury reduction reasons.  Differential color shirts may serve the purpose of readily identifying staff in such circumstances, even at a considerable distance.  Sure, other distinctions might be used, but it is at least a reasonable (and as you pointed out) inexpensive method.

3.  To the extent that some cadet officers and NCOs prefer a black t-shirt, such t-shirts would serve as a small recruiting incentive for cadet staff.  Maybe it shouldn't be so, but ultimately a commander may decide that it is helpful in that regard.

4.  Perhaps the wing already has a stock of non-black t-shirts left over from previous years.  (I've seen wing supply areas with dozens of left-over DDR-logo shirts used at encampments, waiting to be used the following year.)

I'm sure there are others, but the point is that commanders need to be supported in the reasonable exercise of their discretion, even if you might personally disagree.

If we hang around long enough, most of us wind up in CAP command postitions at some point in our careers.  That has a way of generating sympathy and understanding for all of your own past and future commanders.

If people have to have their distinctiveness at encampment, I can think of other ways.

Sure, and each generates their own thread full of criticism here on CT.  You probably remember the threads on shoulder cords with BDUs, multiple colored baseball hats, various staff badges and identifyers worn on the uniform, etc.

The whole point is that reasonable minds can differ on this stuff.  Our duty is to support our volunteer unit and activity commanders who give so much of their time and treasure to support our program.  They deserve our respect as well.

Ned Lee

[FlyTiger77]

Our duty is to support our volunteer unit and activity commanders who give so much of their time and treasure to support our program.  They deserve our respect as well.

Ned Lee

Well stated.

If it is not illegal, unethical or immoral, commanders deserve the support of subordinates. At some point, the big CAP wheel will turn and those subordinates may become commanders and will appreciate the followership of their units.

v/r

[Eclipse]

No one would argue that, but please let me know which ones should get our support and which ones have to live with the members who cause issues because "so and so said it was correct" (almost always erring on the side that supports their argument).

National consistency would end those conversations.

Forgive me if I don't have too much sympathy for unit or activity commanders who make up their own rules, don't make it clear that their
little "special" is for that unit or activity only, and then are called out for the shenanigans.

Encampments and national activities are supposed to define the member experience as close to the book as possible, if for no other reason than some of those members may never again (or before) be subject to outside scrutiny.

All this "special" does little but create arguments - whether its MyFace call-outs or unit arguments.

[Hawk200]

If that was in reference to my post, I didn't write of commanders putting forth a directive. My problem is when people decide to make a standardized uniform item distinctive by attempting to tell others they can't wear it. That's wrong.

But I suspect we would agree that - since the "black shirts for staff" thing is not in the 39-1, and therefore can only be implemented by a commander - commanders can and routinely do set UOD standards.  Why do you think commanders are not entitled to specify t-shirt colors from amongst the available choices in the 39-1?

You're going off on a tangent here, and attempting to include something not relevant. No commander has put forth the directive that black T-shirts are only for staff. That's the simple fact. Whether or not a commander can do it is not relevant to the discussion. The point is that they haven't done it.

Every single person that I have challenged on the "black tshirts are only for staff" can't back it up. I've asked the wing commander about it, he doesn't know what they're talking about. Neither do the group COs. No one in the chain validates it. It's not in the uniform manual, it's not in any supplements, even the encampment documentation doesn't have it. The supposed rule can't be shown in regulations by those claiming it exists. I've actually looked for it, it's not there.

If you claim something is in regulations when it is not, it's lying. If "somebody told you", then it shouldn't really be a problem for them to show you. As the expression goes: "Trust, but verify."

Again, what is wrong with an encampment commander specifying "black t-shirts for staff" if  she decides is that it would be helpful in meeting her encampment objectives?

Back to the original point, the encampment commander hasn't done so. Second, no one has been able to provide me with reasonable explanation as to how it would meet any encampment objectives anyway. Encampment objectives are spelled out in 52-16, and there is nothing in there about restricting black t-shirts to staff.

As far as black T-shirts go, you can pick them up at Walmart. There is no practical reason to restrict a readily available and CAP wide authorized uniform item to just "staff". It doesn't serve any valid purpose.

Strong personal opinion noted.

Legitimate facts noted. Labeling them as opinion doesn't alter them.

But let me suggest a couple of potentially valid purposes.

1.  It has certainly been my experience (30+ encampments as everything from basic cadet to encampment commander in a large wing) that most cadets have brown t-shirts for their BDUs.  Obviously local practices/preferences may differ in different wings, but if most cadets already have brown t-shirts, why would I want to make them buy black ones, even if they are readily available at Wallmart?  Isn't having uniformity at formations and during training a "valid purpose?"

A tangent, but I will address it. I'm not talking about requiring all cadets to have them. What I'm advocating is that they wear whatever they have that is within publication. 39-1 says brown or black. Telling someone that they can't wear a black one because you want to be unique is dishonest, especially when claiming that it's regulation.

Uniformity is established by the manual. Having the same UOD is one thing, but it can be nitpicked to the point of utter idiocy. There is no reason why one person can't wear a different color shirt that's allowed by publication. Your argument could be easy utilized to disallow the wear of badges by some persons. After all, a few people wearing badges out of a couple dozen wouldn't be "uniform."

2.  Judging by the photograph posted above, at least some encampments in warmer wings may involve brief periods of time when the cadets have removed their BDU blouses for ORM/heat injury reduction reasons.  Differential color shirts may serve the purpose of readily identifying staff in such circumstances, even at a considerable distance.  Sure, other distinctions might be used, but it is at least a reasonable (and as you pointed out) inexpensive method.

The inexpensive method I pointed out was that black t-shirts are readily available and authorized for all CAP personnel. Requiring someone to obtain something other than what they have is not inexpensive.

3.  To the extent that some cadet officers and NCOs prefer a black t-shirt, such t-shirts would serve as a small recruiting incentive for cadet staff.  Maybe it shouldn't be so, but ultimately a commander may decide that it is helpful in that regard.

As a recruting incentive? Telling someone they can wear something that is already permitted for them is not a recruiting incentive. It's unethical.

4.  Perhaps the wing already has a stock of non-black t-shirts left over from previous years.  (I've seen wing supply areas with dozens of left-over DDR-logo shirts used at encampments, waiting to be used the following year.)

So what happens when cadets attend encampment in a wing where that's not the case? If someone told you, "You can't wear that shirt, but we don't have any to give you, so you're going to have to go buy it", what would you do?

I'm sure there are others, but the point is that commanders need to be supported in the reasonable exercise of their discretion, even if you might personally disagree.

I don't disagree with a commander excercising the command ability granted to them by publication. I would disagree with a commander attempting to modify publication for personal reasons.

If we hang around long enough, most of us wind up in CAP command postitions at some point in our careers.  That has a way of generating sympathy and understanding for all of your own past and future commanders.

I've been in command position before. I followed our published directives. I didn't make things up so some people could be "kewl."

If people have to have their distinctiveness at encampment, I can think of other ways.

Sure, and each generates their own thread full of criticism here on CT.  You probably remember the threads on shoulder cords with BDUs, multiple colored baseball hats, various staff badges and identifyers worn on the uniform, etc.

Not all suggestions were criticized. Some were good.

The whole point is that reasonable minds can differ on this stuff.  Our duty is to support our volunteer unit and activity commanders who give so much of their time and treasure to support our program.  They deserve our respect as well.

Yes, they do, when they conduct the program properly. A large majority do so, so it's not usually a problem. When they don't, they should be removed. The members of a unit should not have to suffer moral or ethical quandaries caused by a commander doing things for personal benefit.

Overall, a commader has to direct uniform changes. Walking around saying "it's in the regulations" when it is not is a lie.

Now, will you show me how disobeying an order that doesn't exist constitutes not supporting a commander?

[Thunder]

No one cares about the pink, grey, and white shirts in the picture? At least its not black!

[Short Field]

So what happens when cadets attend encampment in a wing where that's not the case? If someone told you, "You can't wear that shirt, but we don't have any to give you, so you're going to have to go buy it", what would you do?

This is probably the only real argument here.   Some cadets have more money than I do but the majority are on tight budgets (read "working class parents").  Banning the wear of approved uniform items (black underwear) and forcing them to wear a different color uniform item just increases the cost.  If the cost is not an issue, then just furnish them...

[Eclipse]

An interesting nuance to this is that while commanders and activity PICs can prohibit anything they want, they can't require anything
which isn't issued.

[JC004]

If that was in reference to my post, I didn't write of commanders putting forth a directive. My problem is when people decide to make a standardized uniform item distinctive by attempting to tell others they can't wear it. That's wrong.

But I suspect we would agree that - since the "black shirts for staff" thing is not in the 39-1, and therefore can only be implemented by a commander - commanders can and routinely do set UOD standards.  Why do you think commanders are not entitled to specify t-shirt colors from amongst the available choices in the 39-1?
...

"available choices"?!  Have you ever visited PAWG ENC?   

[whatevah]

Back to the original point, the encampment commander hasn't done so. Second, no one has been able to provide me with reasonable explanation as to how it would meet any encampment objectives anyway. Encampment objectives are spelled out in 52-16, and there is nothing in there about restricting black t-shirts to staff.

They may not have officially put in print "no black shirts", but it does state in the packing list to bring 7 brown t-shirts, and "Do not attend encampment without the necessary uniforms".  Well, assuming you're in SC Wing.

[Hawk200]

They may not have officially put in print "no black shirts", but it does state in the packing list to bring 7 brown t-shirts, and "Do not attend encampment without the necessary uniforms".  Well, assuming you're in SC Wing.

The basic uniform is spelled out in the manual. An encampment can't really change that.

Some activites try to act as if they're autonomous, and that is a very dangerous habit. I don't care what the activity it is, any changes/alterations/deviations/supplements to publication go through the commander.

[PHall]

In CAWG we standardized on Black t-shirts for all Wing cadet activities.
And the near universal availability of black t-shirts was one of the reasons we did that.

[RiverAux]

I wouldn't have thought that the brown t-shirts could have been messed up, but I suppose I was wrong. 

[PHall]

I wouldn't have thought that the brown t-shirts could have been messed up, but I suppose I was wrong.

You don't want to know how many shades of brown there are when you go to buy shirts.

[SarDragon]

I wouldn't have thought that the brown t-shirts could have been messed up, but I suppose I was wrong.

You don't want to know how many shades of brown there are when you go to buy shirts.

Not to mention the number of shades you have after an equal number of washings. I got some new ones one time and when purchased, were all the same shade, and even same lot number. After just one washing, I had as many different shades as shirts.

[a2capt]

The black ones do that, too- most anything will vary in color shade. But I guess there is no mistaking black vs. brown gone tan or purplish due to washing.

[SarDragon]

IMHO, the black fading is less noticeable and weird looking than the brown/tan color changes. I have faded black t-shirts of all different varietiesthat are still distinguishable as black, while many of the ones that started out as brown could easily be called a different color.

[jimmydeanno]

I just got back from a cadet activity this weekend.  Out of the 50 cadets there, approximately 50 cadets there, 25 were wearing the ABU t-shirt.  Only one of the cadets was wearing the correct "brown."

From a practicality standpoint, it would be a good thing if our uniform undergarments weren't so rare that you have to special order them.  Places like walmart have brown t-shirts, but they have graffiti on them, and only if it happens to be the in color that season.  Additionally, the shade of brown are going to vary greatly.  Some have a red tinge, some look pink, and some are the intended shade. 

Black is something you can find anywhere. 

Being the auxiliary of the USAF and a private corporation affords us some benefits.  One of those is that we can take advantage of some of the benefits of each side when it makes sense.  This isn't one of those cases to follow our military association.

[Hawk200]

This isn't one of those cases to follow our military association.

This is a perfect case where we can do so. The Air Force allowed black with their BDUs, it's how we got them in the first place.

The tan undershirt deal is something that is getting on my nerves. It's a perfect indicator that someone didn't read the manual, and the person that told them "that's OK" didn't either.

[jimmydeanno]

This isn't one of those cases to follow our military association.

This is a perfect case where we can do so. The Air Force allowed black with their BDUs, it's how we got them in the first place.

The tan undershirt deal is something that is getting on my nerves. It's a perfect indicator that someone didn't read the manual, and the person that told them "that's OK" didn't either.

In that sense, yes.  I was referring to the "Pick a uniquely colored shirt because we can force all our employees to shop at this particular store, which is located at all their employment locations" thought process.  The current trend isn't, "use colors that are readily available" but "create unique colors."  So, in that sense, it doesn't make sense to follow the military model.

[Hawk200]

In that sense, yes.  I was referring to the "Pick a uniquely colored shirt because we can force all our employees to shop at this particular store, which is located at all their employment locations" thought process.  The current trend isn't, "use colors that are readily available" but "create unique colors."  So, in that sense, it doesn't make sense to follow the military model.

Ah, I'm following ya now.

[Earhart1971]

I'd like to see where it says any color shirt is acceptable BDU uniform attire. My understanding is that the BDU jacket stays on, period. You can roll up the sleeves according to specs, but no dressing down.

BDU Jackets on in 100 degree heat? Camp Blanding is a Sand Box, dusty, hot, and they had dozens of heat problems at the Florida Wing Encampment. The Cadets in that formation were probably doing PT anyway.

[FlyTiger77]

BDU Jackets on in 100 degree heat?

Yes.

[HGjunkie]

In the humidity we have in FL, I wouldn't wear my BDUs sleve down all day. ESPECIALLY in the summer.  The moisture sticks to your skin and can make you miserable.

[SarDragon]

Actually, the sleeves help get the sweat off of your skin. Because of sunburn concerns, I rarely roll my sleeves on my BBDUs, and have never had heat issues.

[HGjunkie]

Yeah, but when it comes to people who tend to sweat a lot, like me, there's only so much sweat a pair of BDUs will hold.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Yeah, but when it comes to people who tend to sweat a lot, like me, there's only so much sweat a pair of BDUs will hold.

How much sweat can your tightly rolled sleeves hold?

[SarDragon]

Yeah, but when it comes to people who tend to sweat a lot, like me, there's only so much sweat a pair of BDUs will hold.

It will, however slowly, evaporate, helping to cool you.

[Hawk200]

Yeah, but when it comes to people who tend to sweat a lot, like me, there's only so much sweat a pair of BDUs will hold.

Open up the cuffs. Just because your sleeves are down doesn't mean the cuffs have to tight. It opens up the entire shirt to airflow, makes a big difference. You won't be completely dry, but when you're hot and sweating, you shouldn't be.

[blkhwk]

   Generally, within the military regulations, a commander has some latitude when it comes to certain specific operational details. A commander can add to, but take away from regs.  I see no big problem with designating a certain color for staff undershirts. It serves to highlight those individuals. Specifically to a newer member who may not know who to go to with a problem. This is assuming that for one reason or another that his/her immediate leadership in otherwise unavailable.   

  I've attended large encampments where each flight had it's own color t-shirt. That helps with command and control, as you would know immediately who a cadet "belonged" to.  It also would serve to discourage one flight's cadet from mixing in with another flight if for some reason you were doing training at various "stations" with a different flight at each one.

  As far as the heat goes..... monitoring each member's well-being goes a long way. I believe the saying is "Everyone is a safety officer" You can remove the blouse when at the work site or the immediate area, but formations and movement are done in uniform.  All but the most strenuous activity can be accomplished in full uniform, as long as personnel stay hydrated, and are monitored for signs of impending heat injury. At least in CAP, you can have the option of keeping an A/C equipped vehicle nearby for cool down to stave off an actual heat injury. There are many times in the Army that I would have loved that option.

   But enough of my rambling, I will go away now...

[Eclipse]

I've attended large encampments where each flight had it's own color t-shirt. That helps with command and control, as you would know immediately who a cadet "belonged" to.  It also would serve to discourage one flight's cadet from mixing in with another flight if for some reason you were doing training at various "stations" with a different flight at each one.

Interesting that somehow the military, police departments, fire departments, and similar agencies in situations where life and property are at stake daily can somehow figure out "who owns who" when they are all dressed identically, yet we can't herd 10 "cats" during an encampment without an indicator visible from the air?

And if a unit CC or activity director decides to make his people "different", they need to understand that "difference" ends at his door or activity - don't show up to a mission or rocket launch outside your commander's AOR wearing an orange shirt and not expect to be sent home.

Excuses, rationalizations, and "because" hold no weight when you are in someone else's back yard.

[a2capt]

Interesting that somehow the military, police departments, fire departments, and similar agencies in situations where life and property are at stake daily can somehow figure out "who owns who" when they are all dressed identically, yet we can't herd 10 "cats" during an encampment without an indicator visible from the air?

These agencies folks *know* their chain of command, and for the most part, each others. So that alone makes things go a lot smoother.

[SARTAC Medic]

Really?   You would send a cadet home for not wearing a black or brown t shirt?  what if the cadet's mother accidentally bought them a package of the marine OD shirts?    So the cadet misses out on the activity because mom made a mistake?    As much as we like to believe, sometimes its hard to remember that CAP is largely a youth program now in some areas.   It may be simple to exclude a 30 year old senior member who can be confused by the public as a military member, but for a 13 year old cadet who does not have his own spending money....

[Eclipse]

In a word?  Maybe.

First, we need to separate the 12yro slick sleeve Airman from the defiant 15yro Chief who knows better.

Second, we are not "largely a youth program" - we are a paramilitary organization that has a youth component, and as such we
hold our members to a higher expectation.  The regs on the basic uniform components are clear and have not changed much in ten
years.  Rare is the extra-squadron activity without a clear prescription for uniform and equipment.  You can't play organized sports
without the proper gear and uniform, and will get sent home without it, why should we be different?

Exceptions do not serve our purpose or mission, and create dissension in the ranks among those who follow the rule.
There is a clear difference between field expediency in an emergency and doing whatever you feel and then making up a safety
or similiar excuse after the fact.

Third, there are regulatory realities at play - we can't even require BDU's at all, or anything else except the FCU unless we issue it to the cadets, but that also doesn't allow them to wear whatever they want simply because they have cash-flow issues or won't ask questions.

And in all cases, we should never, ever, just "look the other way".  No matter what the issue is, even if it isn't correctable onsite and the decision is to allow them to participate, they need to be privately and professionally corrected, with the understanding that the next time the uniform is worn it needs to be fixed.

[Eclipse]

and you don't post their photos...

[blkhwk]

 I feel I must further explain the different colored shirts. These were for wear as a uniform item at encampment ONLY. Plus, herding cats is sometimes easier than herding cadets....especially new ones....and ESPECIALLY when the encampment site is right across the street from an Army Air Field. It also removes the necessity of asking "who is your flight commander" when you find one acting up.

  Funny you should mention orange....that was my flight's color when I went to encampment as a Cadet back in 1995.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Nowhere in any CAP manual that I can find even states that you can take off your BDU blouse for heat related conditions, nor in any USAF manual. The Army, you cannot take off your blouse for any reason while out doors.

I have been told in INWG "Black flag, Down tops and headgear." I have never done so, if in an urban environment such as damage assessment or UDF operations it detracts from the publick knowing who we are (not just a bunch of rag tags. I have told my cadets if they wish, they can.  None do however.

The BDU uniform was made with another purpose in mind sun and insect protection. In MY opinion you shouldn't be taking off your blouse while working.

With the cadet in mind, the only reason I could think of for wearing the brown t shirt is that it shows sweat better. If a cadet stops sweating (a sign of a heat injury) you will know a lot easier if they are wearing a brown t shirt. Other than that there is no reason to wear brown.

Also I have never seen where an encampment says you have to bring brown and only brown t shirts. If they want CADRE to wear Black t shirts they should supply them. There is no reason to make a cadet buy uniform parts for just one occasion. When INWG holds an encampment they will most of the time give cadets a black t shirt with a logo for the encampment.

If it is in the Reg then there should be no one making anything that says otherwise. Reg is Reg and opinion is opinion. If you have an opinion nothing is wrong with that. Our squadron will supply cadets with brown t shirts, that is what we prefer, we will not make them buy one or the other though. One reason we supply them with brown is for the ability to see sweat when we are training.

If anyone does know where a reg says to take off tops and head gear for black flag conditions, please let me know. I would love to find out.

[HGjunkie]

We're not a paramilitary organization... We're a Federally chartered corporation.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

We are also the USAF Auxiliary. I don't understand your point I guess. Also who said we were para military? This has to do with uniformity and functionality of the uniform.

[jeders]

We're not a paramilitary organization... We're a Federally chartered corporation.

Actually, we are. A paramilitary is a force whose function and organization are similar to those of a professional military force, but which is not regarded as having the same status.

As to manfred's assertion that you can't remove the BDU blouse, this has already been covered in this thread I believe. But in case yuo didn't see it, here ya go.

... [blouse] may be removed in the immediate work area. When removed ... T-shirt will be worn.

So yes, the blouse can be removed. But to add something substantive, no, I don't think we should drop the brown shirt. I think that 39-1 should be clarified in the shade of brown.

As far as a rainbow parade for different flights at encampments, six of one, half a dozen of the other. If it helps the encampment leadership, who don't necessarily have the level of training that instructors for police, fire, and military academies do, then use it. As long as the cadets are explicitly told that it stops as soon as they leave the encampment, I don't really care because it doesn't effect my squadron.

[Eclipse]

Jeders beat me to it on two points above...

[HGjunkie]

We're not a paramilitary organization... We're a Federally chartered corporation.

Actually, we are. A paramilitary is a force whose function and organization are similar to those of a professional military force, but which is not regarded as having the same status.

According to TITLE 36 > Subtitle II > Part B > CHAPTER 403 > § 40301 US code:

(a) Federal Charter.— Civil Air Patrol (in this chapter, the “corporation”) is a federally chartered corporation.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode36/usc_sec_36_00040301----000-.html

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Thank you for the clarification on what the 39-1 says. But that still doesn't really clarify my question (I don't think I explained well enough). While on a SAREX if you are out in the woods or in an urban environment not stationary (ie: searching for a beacon) are you able to take the  blouse and head gear off? I may be asking a dead horse kind of question. It only states in the immediate work area... does that mean while performing tasks such as a layout or does that mean you can travel by foot without your blouse?

We would not be the USAF Auxiliary were we not para military. Besides look at the rank structure and what the grade emblems are.

[jeders]

We're not a paramilitary organization... We're a Federally chartered corporation.

Actually, we are. A paramilitary is a force whose function and organization are similar to those of a professional military force, but which is not regarded as having the same status.

According to TITLE 36 > Subtitle II > Part B > CHAPTER 403 > § 40301 US code:

(a) Federal Charter.— Civil Air Patrol (in this chapter, the "corporation") is a federally chartered corporation.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode36/usc_sec_36_00040301----000-.html

Yes, we are a federally chartered corp., we are also a paramilitary organization. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Thank you for the clarification on what the 39-1 says. But that still doesn't really clarify my question (I don't think I explained well enough). While on a SAREX if you are out in the woods or in an urban environment not stationary (ie: searching for a beacon) are you able to take the  blouse and head gear off? I may be asking a dead horse kind of question. It only states in the immediate work area... does that mean while performing tasks such as a layout or does that mean you can travel by foot without your blouse?

We would not be the USAF Auxiliary were we not para military. Besides look at the rank structure and what the grade emblems are.

It depends on what you're doing. Doing a ramp search (walking) when it's 120 outside and you've completely soaked through your blouse, I probably would say dress down if it keeps you cooler. Doing a search in the field (walking) when there are lots of branches and things that can scratch/hurt you, I would say absolutely not. Sitting around base/camp/impromptu hovel (immediate working area) waiting for a tasking, absolutely get comfortable.

Jeders beat me to it on two points above...

I do believe that's a first.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

QUOTE
It depends on what you're doing. Doing a ramp search (walking) when it's 120 outside and you've completely soaked through your blouse, I probably would say dress down if it keeps you cooler. Doing a search in the field (walking) when there are lots of branches and things that can scratch/hurt you, I would say absolutely not. Sitting around base/camp/impromptu hovel (immediate working area) waiting for a tasking, absolutely get comfortable.
/QUOTE

I agree, I just can't stand when it comes over commo that everyone is to down their tops and perform search ops in the woods or city. It is impractical in the woods and unprofessional in the city.

[Hawk200]

The Army, you cannot take off your blouse for any reason while out doors.

I don't know where you get this idea, I removed my ACU shirt on a regular basis, both on deployment, at regular drills, and have during schools that I attended.

I have been told in INWG "Black flag, Down tops and headgear." I have never done so, if in an urban environment such as damage assessment or UDF operations it detracts from the publick knowing who we are (not just a bunch of rag tags. I have told my cadets if they wish, they can.  None do however.

The envirnment matters. During public operations, no, it shouldn't be removed, but there should be locations set aside where people can remove headgear and shirts to cool down. And yes, those locations should optimally be away from the public eye.

The BDU uniform was made with another purpose in mind sun and insect protection. In MY opinion you shouldn't be taking off your blouse while working.

Sun and insect protection is not always a concern.

Also I have never seen where an encampment says you have to bring brown and only brown t shirts.

There are encampments that require it. Probably due to lack of update, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was for "cool factor."

If they want CADRE to wear Black t shirts they should supply them. There is no reason to make a cadet buy uniform parts for just one occasion.

Agreed.

One reason we supply them with brown is for the ability to see sweat when we are training.

A reactive policy, and not a good one. People should be checked on a regular basis, it's part of leadership. Waiting til they stop sweating is a bad idea. In the amount of time of time it takes the last of the sweat showing to evaporate, the individual would be in serious trouble, or dead. There are also environments where the sweat may never show, it would evaporate too quickly.

If anyone does know where a reg says to take off tops and head gear for black flag conditions, please let me know. I would love to find out.

Not specified as a uniform issue, it's a safety and operational one. One that mirrors military policies put forth for the safety of the individual.

[Hawk200]

I agree, I just can't stand when it comes over commo that everyone is to down their tops and perform search ops in the woods or city. It is impractical in the woods and unprofessional in the city.

Not practical to always remove tops and headgear. That's where cooldown points are important. When a mission has to get done, but it's seriously hot out, something has to give. A mission can't be accomplished if you're killing or injuring people.

Even dressed down, there are still certain uniform requirements that need to be met. Orange vests are still required, even when dressed down. That's a mistake I see regularly.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I was in the Army for about six years. At least in the Infantry you are not allowed to take your top off while outdoors. Although the Infantry is known for making higher than usual standards.

[Hawk200]

I was in the Army for about six years. At least in the Infantry you are not allowed to take your top off while outdoors. Although the Infantry is known for making higher than usual standards.

I wouldn't call them "higher" just different. As a helicopter mechanic, it's almost a necessity to remove your shirt, there are things you can't work on easily, or at all, with a shirt on. You run the risk of getting caught on things, or breaking them.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I can understand that. There are some very small spaces in a helicopter especially difficult to get to the old refrigerant units. (I think that's what their called)

[lordmonar]

I agree, I just can't stand when it comes over commo that everyone is to down their tops and perform search ops in the woods or city. It is impractical in the woods and unprofessional in the city.

Not practical to always remove tops and headgear. That's where cooldown points are important. When a mission has to get done, but it's seriously hot out, something has to give. A mission can't be accomplished if you're killing or injuring people.

Even dressed down, there are still certain uniform requirements that need to be met. Orange vests are still required, even when dressed down. That's a mistake I see regularly.

I have a problem where someone back at base is making the decisions about field uniform wear.

Out in the field...I don't care about uniformity.....I make call based on the conditions, weather and terrain and let each member make their own choice.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I have a problem where someone back at base is making the decisions about field uniform wear.

Out in the field...I don't care about uniformity.....I make call based on the conditions, weather and terrain and let each member make their own choice.

That really does get me that it always comes from base, especially when they are usually inside with AC. Go ahead and put it out on comms that the heat index is above 110 or something to that effect, but don't tell us we have to down tops.

[Eclipse]

I have never heard a mission base issue an all-hands order about uniforms in any fashion - that is usually the purview of Safety or
the Branch Directors or below, but even then it would be optional to leave your shirt on.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I hear it at almost every SAREX that is handled here above squadron level.

[Hawk200]

I can understand that. There are some very small spaces in a helicopter especially difficult to get to the old refrigerant units. (I think that's what their called)

Oh, no, we'd never put those in difficult spaces. The contents might get warm before we could use them.

There are other tight spaces that are a royal pain to get to, no matter how small the person is. We've had a female that's barely five foot, as petite as you can probably generally find in the military that has trouble getting into some spaces. There are some tough spots. What works for one group may be antithesis for others.

I have never heard a mission base issue an all-hands order about uniforms in any fashion - that is usually the purview of Safety or the Branch Directors or below, but even then it would be optional to leave your shirt on.

I have on occasions.

[lordmonar]

Well if it ever came over my radio....my response would be:

"That's nice, Copy All, Ground Team One, Out".



The instresting things is...1) I don't need anyones permission to allow my guys to take off their tops....it's already in the regs. 2) There is zero need for everyone, everywhere to be the same...they guys on the flight line may need to take them off, but the guys in the woods may need to keep them on.

If the IC/GBD/LSC is controlling their people that much then they need to lean a little about Micromanagement!

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Well if it ever came over my radio....my response would be:

"That's nice, Copy All, Ground Team One, Out".



The instresting things is...1) I don't need anyones permission to allow by guys to take off their tops....it's already in the regs. 2) There is zero need for everyone, everywhere to be the same...they guys on the flight line may need to take them off, but the guys in the woods may need to keep them on.

If the IC/GBD/LSC is controlling their people that much then they need to lean a little about Micromanagement!

Ah micromanagement. A beautiful thing huh?

[SarDragon]

Really?   You would send a cadet home for not wearing a black or brown t shirt? 

Why not?

When I went to encampment the first time, sometime in the two or three weeks prior, we had to take in our encampment gear to a local weekly meeting to get it checked. If units aren't doing that or something similar, they aren't doing their job.

[FlyTiger77]

Really?   You would send a cadet home for not wearing a black or brown t shirt? 

Why not?

When I went to encampment the first time, sometime in the two or three weeks prior, we had to take in our encampment gear to a local weekly meeting to get it checked. If units aren't doing that or something similar, they aren't doing their job.

Agreed. The old NCO adage of "Don't expect what you don't inspect" springs to mind.

[blkhwk]

 Hawk200... what airframes you work on? I'm guessing the Black Hawk....?  I am a 15D and 15T so I've pretty much worked with all of 'em.

[RiverAux]

I don't have a problem with different t-shirts for different flights at an encampment for identification purposes.  Keep in mind that the cadet and senior leaders are only with these people for a week and they are most likely not going to be able to learn the names and flights of every cadet at the encampment at the time.  I suspect that even at "real" boot camp the instructors don't have that down within the first week either.   But, as has been said, these off-reg shirts should be provided for the cadets free of charge. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Most definitely River, anything that is required outside of Regulation should be provided. One way I can see getting around all that issue of who's flight are you in, is to make the shirts regulation. The way to tell what flight their in? Provide the Black or Brown t shirt and put an A, B, or C on the back in large block form. There is no reason that that can't be done if you are already going to have to shell out for every cadet's t shirts. Besides, why detract from uniformity with shirts that are out of regulation? If you are seeing a cadet who is lost, you will probably come up behind them anyways. If you do come up to them there is no reason they can't tell you what flight their in. Every cadet should be able to state their flight.

[Hawk200]

Hawk200... what airframes you work on? I'm guessing the Black Hawk....?  I am a 15D and 15T so I've pretty much worked with all of 'em.

Blackhhawks. I'm a Tango.

I suspect that even at "real" boot camp the instructors don't have that down within the first week either.

They don't, but they don't need special t-shirts to make the determination either. When it comes to an encampment, the people someone needs to worry about is the ones for which they're accountable. Anyone else, challenge them and ask.

Personally, it seems almost cowardly to put out t-shirts so one doesn't have to ask a cadet what flight they're in. If you don't have the guts to do that, then you shouldn't be in a leadership position in the first place.

Regs are there for a reason, the habit of ignoring them at times is trouble. Many activities make up their own uniform variations, but from what I'm seeing those uniform changes aren't being approved by the proper authority (usually the wing commander.)

The Wing CC is the corporate officer in any wing, and doing things without their approval could be considered simple insubrodination. If you have a uniform alteration at an encampment that is approved by the wing commander, you need to have a copy of it in writing that is distributed to all affected by it. "Oh, that's just not practical/that easy/too much trouble/necessary" is wrong. It's an unacceptable excuse for doing your own thing.

[Eclipse]

I suspect that even at "real" boot camp the instructors don't have that down within the first week either.

They don't, but they don't need special t-shirts to make the determination either. When it comes to an encampment, the people someone needs to worry about is the ones for which they're accountable. Anyone else, challenge them and ask.

Personally, it seems almost cowardly to put out t-shirts so one doesn't have to ask a cadet what flight they're in. If you don't have the guts to do that, then you shouldn't be in a leadership position in the first place.

Regs are there for a reason, the habit of ignoring them at times is trouble. Many activities make up their own uniform variations, but from what I'm seeing those uniform changes aren't being approved by the proper authority (usually the wing commander.)

Hawk200, you are totally getting one of the "nice" Christmas cards from me this year.

I hear this all the time - "I need to know which flight those cadets are in...".

1) Why aren't they assembled properly?

2) What sort of disarray is your activity that you have cadets scattered away from their squad leader(s)?

3) If you know where your cadets are, and who your cadets are, you don't need to know where anyone else's are, unless they
fall into your ranks, in which case your count is off.

4) As a flight CC you can't keep track of 10-15 cadets in a controlled environment with a list and a body count?
Not even with the help of a Flt Sgt and a TAC or two?

5) Why aren't they assembled properly?

6) What sort of disarray is your activity that you have cadets scattered away from their squad leader(s)?

50,000 foot identifiers like shirt colors are for situations where people are scattered and quick identification might be a safety issue,
or as in team sports there is controlled chaos and you need to pick out your man from 80 yards away.

Nothing in CAP ever should fall into that category - certainly not encampment or ES.

[blkhwk]

I was in the Army for about six years. At least in the Infantry you are not allowed to take your top off while outdoors. Although the Infantry is known for making higher than usual standards.

  AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA..... sorry.....reflex.... As I have seen it.... the infantry is known for making things harder than they have to be....which is often confused for "higher standards"  Sorry, had to.... 

  I'm not just ragging on 11 series to be an ass, I have a EIB, and Air Assualt wings, to go with my crew wings.  By the way.... how did y'all do those little panels at the bottom of your posts with all the ribbons and stuff? Kinda cool.

[blkhwk]

 In the instances I have seen where there were different colored shirts, they were provided by the activity. (2-4 EA.) As far as inquiring as to the flight a Cadet belongs to, It's not a question of not wanting to, it's a question of not needing to. Then the first question would be "why are you not with your flight?" I do not mean to imply that the cadets would be scattered all over the place, BUT we all know at LEAST two or three that need a leash. (and maybe a muzzle)

As far as keeping track of 15-20 cadets.... all three of my encampments had five flights with 25-40 per flight. There was A-D, with 25-30 EA. Then another flight for "advanced" cadets.  These were mostly there for their 2nd or third time, but over and above the number required to fill staff positions. There were 40 or so of these, and I don't remember the flight's name, but it was not a phoenetic alphabet type name.   Mostly these Cadets were doing the GSAR stuff, or FTX in the field, while the rest were doing "basic training" I remember some real sadistic ELT hiding shenanigans going on then.... like a former sniper backpacking one around, one being placed in one of the GT member's ruck. (That one was beautiful, by the way....  and you all have my permission to use that one too.), and one on a metal canoe out in a lake near some transmission lines. (aaahh, those were the days) But back to keeping track, we have to remember, the leadership is mostly comprised of cadets as well, who are also involved in whatever the training event happens to be. It would be easy for a cadet or two to wander off. Then if you happen to encounter an orange shirt by the barracks, when you know the orange shirts are supposed to be in Moral Leadership, then you ask them why they are there. If everyone is in the same color shirt, you wouldn't know immediately when one is out of place. There are times when due to classroom size, or instructional effectiveness, an encampment's classes have to be broken down by flight.

[RiverAux]

And then there are times when you see a cadet (or cadets) doing something that probably needs some reporting but isn't serious enough for you to break off whatever important tasks you're working on to go have a conversation with them. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

You should not feel as though you shouldn't need to ask, it is all too simple to ask a simple question... "What flight are you in?"

[RiverAux]

Don't see where anyone has said that they were afraid of asking.  Not sure where that came from.   

[blkhwk]

Personally, it seems almost cowardly to put out t-shirts so one doesn't have to ask a cadet what flight they're in. If you don't have the guts to do that, then you shouldn't be in a leadership position in the first place.   

RiverAux....right there....  ^

   Also, it's not just a question of having to ask.... it's just that you can tell at a glance.... "one of these fellers needs to be redirected back to his AO..."
As senior staff, it is unlikely that you would know  who was in what flight, unless maybe you have a cadet that "makes a name for himself" early on.

 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

It's not really that anyone said anything about not wanting to ask. It is just that it really seems that it is implied that it's how some feel. Almost, you should be wearing something so I don't have to ask, I don't want to ask so I am going to try to get around it. I don't see why there is a need to make different uniforms. There is uniformity for a reason. If nothing else it's there to make the cadets feel like everyone is on the same team. Yes, you have flights and they need to make a team of their own, but they should not feel like they are on opposing sides "enemies" of the other flights. We are all USAF Aux. We are all on the same team. Everyone is together.

[blkhwk]

 I agree with that. How I look at it, is not a way of making separate teams within a team. It is merely a tool to be used to help see IMMEDIATELY that someone is not where they belong, or to maybe assist a new Cadet that may be feeling a little lost, a little bewildered find his flight. At least that is how it was used here when it was used.  It was still "One Team, One Fight", but it can be difficult at times to keep 150 or so youngsters where they need to be.

And, it was authorized, on paper even, as a temporary addendum to 39-1. With suspense of COB on the last day. Toward the end, a lot of the Cadets would have the other members of their flight sign one of their T-shirts. Typically this would happen earlier in the day before we did a pass in review to officially end the encampment. I think I still have all three of mine. I feel old....that was 1995 for the first one.....

  So....Red Baron (paraphrasing on the name) you still in?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I can understand the desire (edit desire to need) to be able to see immediately what flight they belong to.

Yes I agree safety over uniformity!

My only issue is non-uniformity just irritates me. I can't get over the idea that there is uniform regulations for a reason. To step away from that just kinda bugs me. Regulation is set, black and white, authorized/ not authorized.

Ok, So long as the uniform is put out well before the activity, and it is explained that the cadet is not to purchase the non-regulation uniform items. It needs stressed In large bold on the packing list, you need this item, but it will be provided. Not in an asterisk that says in fine print on the bottom of the page, orange t shirts will be provided.

[Hawk200]

It is merely a tool to be used to help see IMMEDIATELY that someone is not where they belong, or to maybe assist a new Cadet that may be feeling a little lost, a little bewildered find his flight.

If there's a cadet that's not one of yours, then you pretty much know that they're someplace they don't belong. It shouldn't take a T-shirt to tell you that.

As to a bewildered cadet, that's definitely one that you need to actually speak to. Just yelling at them to go find their flight isn't gonna really help them. Stop them, ask where they're supposed to be and who their flight commander or TAC is, help them find out where to go. Be civil, even polite, and that individual will have a better experience (and develop more respect for you on top of everything). Leadership should be helpful, it works better that way.

We shouldn't be adopting a Barney approach to leadership. Colored t-shirts are doing just that. At an encampment, I seriously doubt that it's going to generate any serious problem by stopping for a minute, and simply asking "Where are you supposed to be?" Leadership isn't gonna be and shouldn't be made an easy thing. We need to teach it the right way from the start, not making it easy on ourselves and in turn making those we're leading think it's supposed to be easy.

As has been pointed out, uniformity exists for a reason. Subdividing members of one team into other little teams with funky colored T-shirts is where we start generating "cliques", "divisions", and other elitist attitudes. Having differences in that manner is where we start getting our people thinking that they should be set apart in other ways. It seems to me that's the seed that turns into the idea that there needs to be a separate patch for every little thing. We're planting that seed. Today, it's a T-shirt; tomorrow it's a patch or badge for the "elite"; the next day is an even worse self adopted item that is no longer "uniform." Where does it end? Why should it even start?

I'm beginning to think maybe we should drop brown T-shirts. They're getting harder to find, and black isn't. It also puts everyone in the same thing. And that's the point of uniformity.

[RiverAux]

Subdividing members of one team into other little teams with funky colored T-shirts is where we start generating "cliques", "divisions", and other elitist attitudes.

Guess we need to stop giving out awards for honor flights then. 

[Hawk200]

Subdividing members of one team into other little teams with funky colored T-shirts is where we start generating "cliques", "divisions", and other elitist attitudes.

Guess we need to stop giving out awards for honor flights then.

That's out of context, and you full well know it. Honor flight is a good thing, elitism is not.

Liberalism doesn't belong here.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

That's out of context, and you full well know it. Honor flight is a good thing, elitism is not.

Liberalism doesn't belong here.

Honoring those who go above and beyond the core values is the way to get all to want to do the same.

Level One: Foundations says something to the effect that the best way to motivate volunteers is to give recognition for a job well done. That is true, it is. Even the in the RM, there is recognition for living and performing above and beyond. Yes, in the RM you are not classified as a "volunteer" but, you did volunteer to sign that contract and serve your nation. Giving recognition motivates those who might otherwise be less motivated.

Living up to the Core Values is a good thing, it is great. But it is also expected. Isn't it great to live above and beyond the standard? Recognizing those who do, is the best way to get those who only wish to do the standard strive for better.

[RiverAux]

Wow, now utilizing different colored shirts not only promotes elitism, but liberalism too. 

[Hawk200]

Wow, now utilizing different colored shirts not only promotes elitism, but liberalism too.

And now you go even further out of context.

[blkhwk]

 The color of the shirt has nothing whatsoever to do with cliques.... I never even said I particularly cared about their use. They are just A tool used to simplify command and control.  Unlike some of us, some people have no REAL WORLD experience in moving groups of people around like sometimes happens at an encampment. Also, these cadets can be as young as 12... while there are some spectacular kids in the program.... they are just that. Yes, you can ask one "what flight are you in". Most will come right out with it. Every now and then, you will have one that will freeze up. Like I said, kids... most are away from home, many for the first time, and may be nervous. Anything you can do to make it a bit easier will ensure that they stay in, and maybe come back as staff. You never know, that cadet that is too nervous at first to be able to respond to a senior member he's never seen before when he is 12, may be a Spaatz Cadet at 16-17.

  Plus, getting that out of the way immediately frees up more time for productive activity.

[Hawk200]

The color of the shirt has nothing whatsoever to do with cliques.... I never even said I particularly cared about their use. They are just A tool used to simplify command and control.  Unlike some of us, some people have no REAL WORLD experience in moving groups of people around like sometimes happens at an encampment. Also, these cadets can be as young as 12... while there are some spectacular kids in the program.... they are just that. Yes, you can ask one "what flight are you in". Most will come right out with it. Every now and then, you will have one that will freeze up. Like I said, kids... most are away from home, many for the first time, and may be nervous. Anything you can do to make it a bit easier will ensure that they stay in, and maybe come back as staff. You never know, that cadet that is too nervous at first to be able to respond to a senior member he's never seen before when he is 12, may be a Spaatz Cadet at 16-17.

Then you have a learning experience on both sides of the equation. Seniors that need to learn how move groups of people and be leaders, and cadets that need to learn how to come out of their shell. Both have to do it someday.

Leadership is not an easy thing. As difficult as it is, it is worth doing well. It's not about screaming and yelling at people. I see too much of this at encampments, then the flight leaders complaining that their cadets don't like them. Leadership is about interacting with your troops, not identifying them by colors or googaws. Learning leadership and establishing rapport is certainly productive activity.

Substituting a T-shirt for leadership qualities is a serious fail.

[blkhwk]

 Like I said, I don't care one way or the other myself. As long as it's not illegal, immoral, or just plain stupid, I just do what is dictated by higher HQ. All the really good screw-ups come from above my pay grade anyway.... who am I to screw with tradition. On the shirts thing, you can take it or leave it as far as I am concerned. I do see where they can be useful, that is the position I was taking throughout this exchange.

   As far as screaming and yelling, As  my soldiers know, I am actually fairly soft spoken. I can lay down some yelling if i have to, most of the time it is unnecessary.  I think the last guy I yelled at for real was overseas. He was a complete knucklehead. He was reduced in rank for a pattern of behavior that had to do with being almost totally technically inept, lazy, had hygiene issues, etc. He came to us an E-4, and when we redeployed, he was an E-1. The reason I yelled at him was he got mad because he had to get off his butt that day, and to show his contempt for the NCO's he tried to kick the disco ball off the top of a blackhawk. (You blackhawk guys are probably groaning about that one....) Needless to say, he got chewed out for a bit. Hell, we took turns. That is the ONE time I have ever had a private actually locked up at Parade Rest while yelling at him.

[vorter]

GAWG did much the same thing. What did this accomplish?

Not a whole lot, since we also had specific "Flight Caps" with colors AND embroidered flight letter: A-FLT, B-FLT, etc.

Also, it meant myself and every other cadet in my unit (and many in the Wing) had to spend more money on brown shirts, which Wal-Mart does not carry... We did get a good deal, but guess how many black shirts we had? Yeah, plenty.

EXACT THING I WAS THINKINGGG!!!!
wow I had to buy 3 brown shirts from the Hock Shop (Yep, no store anywhere had the color) and I had like 10 black ones

BTW Golf  flight owned, dont deny, and are you going to FLWG Winter? im staffing