Flying commercial in CAP uniform

[DrJbdm]

  Forgive me if this topic has already been discussed, I couldn't locate a previous topic for it in the search function.

  What is the general consensus on members traveling in uniform. For the sake of argument, let's assume we're talking about only the Air Force uniform or the CSU. (CSU with blue slides if prior to Sept 10) who are travelling by commercial airlines and are going to out of state CAP events, such as RSC, IG College or other major CAP functions?

   Is it proper and is it within policy to travel in military style uniforms when travelling via commercial airlines to a CAP event?

   Does it make a difference if the event you are traveling to is being held on an active duty Air Force base, such as is the case with RSC, NSC or the IG college?

   Does anyone here routinely fly commercial in CAP military style uniform?

[JoeTomasone]

CAPM 39-1 does not permit routine wear on commercial aircraft - in general, the uniform is to be worn only to, from, and during CAP activities; so unless you (will) have no time to change before or after your travel, then there is no need to wear the uniform on a commercial flight.

That being said, there is obviously no specified uniform.

I have worn my uniform on a flight once - I left a CAP activity and had to go straight to the airport to board a flight for my job and had no time to change.    Then again, I've also had to go from an activity to the airport when I did have time to change, and I did change.

I suggest a read of the beginning of CAPM 39-1, especially Table 1-1.

[High Speed Low Drag]

Hmmmm - WIWAC, and flying commercial to CAP activities, I was always ordered to fly in uniform.

My daughter is going to HGA this year and was told by a  Honor Guard Staff LTC (senior) to wear uniform when flying commerical.  So who's right?

[mynetdude]

Hmmmm - WIWAC, and flying commercial to CAP activities, I was always ordered to fly in uniform.

My daughter is going to HGA this year and was told by a  Honor Guard Staff LTC (senior) to wear uniform when flying commerical.  So who's right?

I was considering flying to an out of state activity, but I would be traveling the day before and the day after, so therefore wearing the uniform would be non-compliant with the regulations. In fact I will be driving instead the day before the activity and I still will not wear the uniform the only way I will wear the uniform prior to departing to the activity is if I know for sure I will arrive AT the activity upon arrival not to just my hotel and go the next day.

[Fuzzy]

A lot of special acts require cadets fly in uniform, Service Dress.

Why not? Besides its uncomfortable. Might recruit someone.

[mynetdude]

A lot of special acts require cadets fly in uniform, Service Dress.

Why not? Besides its uncomfortable. Might recruit someone.

Why? NESA specifically asks that you do not wear uniform when traveling to NESA via commercial means.

[JoeTomasone]

Like many things, it depends on how you interpret the regs:


Table 1-1 says "do not wear": 

more than 1 hour following the close of the activity except for travel
time to and from such activities, for which the uniform is specified
(seminars, conferences, NEC, or NB meetings).

So, there's a few issues here:


1. Travel time TO the activity is not restricted and there is no time "before" the activity when it's permissible to wear the uniform.   I am, however, pretty sure that if you fly in to a conference the day before it starts that you are not expected to wear the uniform - but I think that you could make a valid argument that it's permited by this part of 39-1.   

2. You can only wear the uniform up to one hour AFTER the activity, except for travel time - which I interpret to mean that if you begin your travel within one hour after the activity and it takes you more than one hour to arrive, you are permitted to wear the uniform until you arrive.   However, I also interpret this to mean that if you are departing more than one hour after the activity concludes that you should change.   I therefore also apply this to travel to and arrival as well -- if I will be jumping right in to the activity, I will wear the uniform enroute.  If I will get there the day before or much earlier in the day, then I won't.   The only exception is if the activity is on a military installation (which is covered in another part of that table) where uniform wear is permitted (IAW local installation policies). 

3. "for which the uniform is specified
(seminars, conferences, NEC, or NB meetings)":  There's no telling what the intention was behind this.   Does the whole previous portion only apply if the uniform is specified?   Does it only apply if you are going to a seminar, conference, NEC, or NB meeting (and therefore if you are going to an encampment, say, it is invalid)?   

[mynetdude]

Like many things, it depends on how you interpret the regs:


Table 1-1 says "do not wear": 

more than 1 hour following the close of the activity except for travel
time to and from such activities, for which the uniform is specified
(seminars, conferences, NEC, or NB meetings).

So, there's a few issues here:


1. Travel time TO the activity is not restricted and there is no time "before" the activity when it's permissible to wear the uniform.   I am, however, pretty sure that if you fly in to a conference the day before it starts that you are not expected to wear the uniform - but I think that you could make a valid argument that it's permited by this part of 39-1.   

2. You can only wear the uniform up to one hour AFTER the activity, except for travel time - which I interpret to mean that if you begin your travel within one hour after the activity and it takes you more than one hour to arrive, you are permitted to wear the uniform until you arrive.   However, I also interpret this to mean that if you are departing more than one hour after the activity concludes that you should change.   I therefore also apply this to travel to and arrival as well -- if I will be jumping right in to the activity, I will wear the uniform enroute.  If I will get there the day before or much earlier in the day, then I won't.   The only exception is if the activity is on a military installation (which is covered in another part of that table) where uniform wear is permitted (IAW local installation policies). 

3. "for which the uniform is specified
(seminars, conferences, NEC, or NB meetings)":  There's no telling what the intention was behind this.   Does the whole previous portion only apply if the uniform is specified?   Does it only apply if you are going to a seminar, conference, NEC, or NB meeting (and therefore if you are going to an encampment, say, it is invalid)?   

while on base wear is permitted, isn't it preferred even if the activity is the day after you arrive would they prefer you be in uniform when entering/being on base? Kinda sounds silly, but I don't think off duty personnel who are going off base with their families are going to wander off in uniform much less the rest of their family in uniform too?  I don't see what the harm would be going on base in clean civvies the day before the activity would be (I suppose if you were going to lodge there).

[Brad]

What about this?

CAPM 39-1 Chapter 1 pg 6 table 1-1

Listed under the "wear" column:

may wear service dress uniform or light blue, short or long sleeve
shirt/blouse with tie/tab and the all-weather coat, overcoat, and
raincoat when traveling by commercial means (other than to and
from local CAP activities)

Since it's out of state then it's obviously not local.

So, no surprise, left hand doesn't know the right in 39-1. What else is new?

[heliodoc]

Dr Jbdm

I'll put my .000000002 here since I went thru the 1980's RM back and forth decisions about uniforms on civilian / airline flights

If CAP is ORDERING it.....then that would be easy....like the easy button.  But since you about to get 4-10 pages overnite about uni wear on airlines and what others are going to say

Push the REAL easy button.....wear your civilian clothes and pack away the CAP uniforms.  Either way, once you get to your destination, you are going to have to iron that AF or CSU anyways for tomorrow's activities

Your choice, my man!

[mynetdude]

Dr Jbdm

I'll put my .000000002 here since I went thru the 1980's RM back and forth decisions about uniforms on civilian / airline flights

If CAP is ORDERING it.....then that would be easy....like the easy button.  But since you about to get 4-10 pages overnite about uni wear on airlines and what others are going to say

Push the REAL easy button.....wear your civilian clothes and pack away the CAP uniforms.  Either way, once you get to your destination, you are going to have to iron that AF or CSU anyways for tomorrow's activities

Your choice, my man!

Like I said, if I am going the day before I see no point in wearing the uni. Same day, I would rather wear the uni, you don't realize how much time it takes to disembark and get to your destination and run out of time unless the activity is way later in the day and you arrive super early as he said go the EASY way it isn't required unless CAP is ordering it.

[a2capt]

"I've always heard" ..  that it's encouraged to wear the uniform when flying commercially, when able, as we are an Aviation related organization - however I've also never been able to find it anywhere *except* mentioned in Level One.

Wear of CAP Uniforms

The CAP uniform may be worn when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member. With certain restrictions, uniforms may be worn on commercial or military flights or when visiting military installations. The service or dress uniform is appropriate for social activities on military installations or when attending functions of a military nature when representing CAP.

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Uniforms_77050D80D89C8.pdf


It goes on to mention 39-1 as a reference, but there is nothing about commercial flights in 39-1 that I can find right off.

[DrJbdm]

  Thanks for the info, I think it's interesting the different takes on the subject. In my case I will be attending the National IG college at Kirtland AFB. The day of travel and the day of check in is the same day, in this case Saturday. Everyone attending will be billeting at the VOQ. Does this additional bit of info give this discussion any other food for thought?

   Interesting side note, just received an email the other day from the Wing Commander saying that National will be picking up the costs of billeting...that's a saving of $273!! cost of the IG college is an easy $50. Not bad, now I will have to fly in since I do not have the luxury of having any extra time off for traveling with the Wing IG in the CAP van. That's likely going to cost more then what I am saving but so be it. I'm still not having to spend nearly what I had forecasted for total costs of attending.

   I am considering traveling in Air Force style uniform, only for the ease and perhaps as an interesting recruiting opportunity. I couldn't seem to find anything in the regs that stated that officers should avoid traveling in uniform. If I am not mistaken, I believe I saw our own Major Corrales at an airport traveling in uniform one day, with his ever present service cap tucked under his arm. Unfortunately, I didn't have the time to run up and visit. 

[JoeTomasone]

What about this?

CAPM 39-1 Chapter 1 pg 6 table 1-1

Listed under the "wear" column:

may wear service dress uniform or light blue, short or long sleeve
shirt/blouse with tie/tab and the all-weather coat, overcoat, and
raincoat when traveling by commercial means (other than to and
from local CAP activities)

Since it's out of state then it's obviously not local.

So, no surprise, left hand doesn't know the right in 39-1. What else is new?

Not only that, but literally interpreted, you could wear the uniform any time you ride the bus, a taxi, or a plane -- as long as you're not headed to a local CAP activity.   

This is all part and parcel of the massive re-write that 39-1 sorely needs.

[JoeTomasone]

"I've always heard" ..  that it's encouraged to wear the uniform when flying commercially, when able, as we are an Aviation related organization - however I've also never been able to find it anywhere *except* mentioned in Level One.

Wear of CAP Uniforms

The CAP uniform may be worn when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member. With certain restrictions, uniforms may be worn on commercial or military flights or when visiting military installations. The service or dress uniform is appropriate for social activities on military installations or when attending functions of a military nature when representing CAP.

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Uniforms_77050D80D89C8.pdf


It goes on to mention 39-1 as a reference, but there is nothing about commercial flights in 39-1 that I can find right off.

That's the take on that table item in 39-1 that I always thought was a far-fetched interpretation -- so if I am heading out of town on (non-CAP) business, I can just wear the uniform for the plane ride?   That makes no sense.  Moreover - why would I want to?   

And apparently they have changed the L1 materials since I went through it.   

[mynetdude]

"I've always heard" ..  that it's encouraged to wear the uniform when flying commercially, when able, as we are an Aviation related organization - however I've also never been able to find it anywhere *except* mentioned in Level One.

Wear of CAP Uniforms

The CAP uniform may be worn when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member. With certain restrictions, uniforms may be worn on commercial or military flights or when visiting military installations. The service or dress uniform is appropriate for social activities on military installations or when attending functions of a military nature when representing CAP.

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Uniforms_77050D80D89C8.pdf


It goes on to mention 39-1 as a reference, but there is nothing about commercial flights in 39-1 that I can find right off.

That's the take on that table item in 39-1 that I always thought was a far-fetched interpretation -- so if I am heading out of town on (non-CAP) business, I can just wear the uniform for the plane ride?   That makes no sense.  Moreover - why would I want to?   

And apparently they have changed the L1 materials since I went through it.

I have a CAP friend who seriously takes advantage of this rule he will wear uniform on the bus, plane, train whatever even if the event is a day or two later, for example he and I rode together in my truck the last time we went somewhere he was in uniform and I wasn't... why? Because the event wasn't until the next day.

[Rotorhead]

I hope you're joking....

[spaatzmom]

Hmmmm - WIWAC, and flying commercial to CAP activities, I was always ordered to fly in uniform.

My daughter is going to HGA this year and was told by a  Honor Guard Staff LTC (senior) to wear uniform when flying commerical.  So who's right?

In this instance, the HGA staff member is correct.  This is because as soon as the cadet deplanes and goes to baggage claim they are subject to the uniform and decorum inspection.  If your cadet is not in uniform, they will lose points.  If while in uniform they act without decorum and poorly represent CAP, they lose points.  Serious uniform and or behavior infractions, even while at the airport can and have in the past resulted in that cadet being sent home. 

The HGA staff is very serious about the public perception of CAP as a whole.  While at the academy, there are many small events that cadets participate in to include usually at least one funeral, wreath laying, welcoming returning soldiers, etc.  The better point score your cadet has the better the chance to do these events.  Make sure they have got the rifle moves down pat as much as possible prior to attending and the memory work.   

Tell your cadet to not be too stressed out about the rifle moves, they try to pack a lot of training into the two weeks.  Pay attention and enjoy her time there, there is so much to do.

She will return exhausted like from other NCSA's and possibly need some time to process all that she learned.  She will change her perspective of her role in CAP and her life in general in the months after the academy.  Unfortunately, a few cadets do not absorb the lessons taught and become elitist in their attitudes, but this is NOT what taught by the staff or the USAF Honor Guard personnel.

If at all possible, try to attend the graduation ceremony.  I am not sure if there will be a videographer this year but there has been in past years.  It is wondrous to see the progression over the 3 years in their rifle performances.

[vmstan]

"I've always heard" ..  that it's encouraged to wear the uniform when flying commercially, when able, as we are an Aviation related organization - however I've also never been able to find it anywhere *except* mentioned in Level One.

Wear of CAP Uniforms

The CAP uniform may be worn when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member. With certain restrictions, uniforms may be worn on commercial or military flights or when visiting military installations. The service or dress uniform is appropriate for social activities on military installations or when attending functions of a military nature when representing CAP.

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Uniforms_77050D80D89C8.pdf


It goes on to mention 39-1 as a reference, but there is nothing about commercial flights in 39-1 that I can find right off.

This was my understanding as well.

[AirAux]

A question to Brad's post: may wear service dress uniform or light blue, short or long sleeve
shirt/blouse with tie/tab and the all-weather coat, overcoat, and
raincoat when traveling by commercial means (other than to and
from local CAP activities)

So this means that if I travel to local squadron meetings by commercial means (taxi, bus, or local rail) that I can't wear my uniform??  That makes no sense at all.  Can anybody explain that to me??