CAP Talk

I know, opinions don't count for much but here's my take on the proposals put forward in the March NB agenda. Please feel free to add your opinions and thoughts on this thread and not litter other threads with unrelated uniform discussions. OK, here we go...

Eaker mini medal: About time they got off their duff and give proper recognition to former cadinks who completed all achievements in the cadet program but did not make it all the way to the Spaatz. The mini-medal may only be worn by senior members on mess dress, but that doesn't preclude giving it as a presentation item along with the certificate.

NCGC mini medal: OK, let's keep the color guard geeks happy... ;D No problem with that.

Gray female shoulder marks: Apparently someone forgot about that... how many times I've seen female senior members have to tuck in or heavily modify gray shoulder marks, with less than stellar results? At least that will fix that problem.

Silver commissioning braid on the CSU service dress: Just looks plain gaudy. Either remove it altogether or choose another complementary color. The AF may not like us having dark blue braid, further making our CSU even closer to AF-style. If another color is chosen, make it either black (but slightly wider than the current 1/2") or ultramarine blue. Red, while it hearkens back to old-school CAP heritage, just does NOT look good on the dark blue color.

Silver chinstrap on the bus driver hat: No biggie if we go back to leather. Our cap device is distinctive enough that it shouldn't have any confusion with the AF cap device. Besides, the silver chinstrap tends to be fragile.

Lightweight blue jacket embroidery: Nix on that. I wouldn't mind a CAP emblem instead of the Hap Arnold 'tangram', thus making it probably acceptable for corporate uniform use. Did you notice the special jackets worn by the Presidential Airlift Group on the recent Air Force one TV special? They're nothing more than the AF blue lightweight jacket with name and presidential seal embroidered on it. (Yeah, there's one draped on the CinC's AF1 chair but that's usually worn only on the airplane.)

CAP Astronaut Designator: Congrats on Col Boe being the first current CAP member to fly in space. He already gets the shooting star on the AF pilot wings and the gold shooting star lapel pin for civilian clothes. But to create a new designator CAP-wide? Very poorly thought out. I can see a one-of-a-kind presentation badge being presented to Col Boe and other future CAP astronauts, but not a general wear aeronautical rating or badge.

Commander's Badge Wear: No problem with that, even if it means ditching the Command Service Ribbon. (It looks almost identical to the Community Service Ribbon.) If they should want to add a 'toilet seat' to the star of the 'group guru' badge to denote wing or higher command service later on, I don't have a problem. IIRC the NB/NEC badge is only worn during the term of office - please correct me if I'm wrong. Also clarify wear of the CC badge on flight suit name tags to sitting commanders only.

Flight suit grade devices: I'd rather see the plastic grade insignia go the way of the dodo, but if a reliable supplier has been found, keep it around a little longer. If you wanna wear cloth grade on the bag, wear corporate blue. I already do. And it's not purple, it's dark blue.

Sweaters and cardigans with corporate service uniform: Still needs some work so as not to enrage Ma Blue.

Military badges and ribbons on CSU/grays: Nix on badges, ribbons OK by me if the services don't have a cow over it.

Wear of CAP mini-medals on CSU: Yes. As it currently stands, the CSU with black bow tie, ribbons and no nametag is nothing more than semiformal. There is no CSU equivalent to mess dress other than appropriate civilian attire. If mini medals are approved, the bottom row of medals should not be worn below the lower seam of the welt pocket.

Optional patches on BDU left shoulder: We need a uniform wear standard - either all wings wear wing patches or all do not. This is just a 'legalization' of the wear of the ranger school patch on the left shoulder. No big deal for me.

Blue parka for CSU: Agree on avoiding blue as the color, as it might be confused with Ma Blue, though the actual issue N2B parka is sage green (do they make it in other colors?)

Changing over to dark blue tapes on BDU: Dark blue looks better on BBDU. I'd wait until the BDU/ABU issue is reslolved before picking a tape color for those uniforms.

The priority should not be all these uniform proposals, but rather we need to update 39-1 with what CAP has today.  Its clear from these proposals that many in our leadship cannot keep track of 39-1 as written and of all the ICLs.

IMHO, the only 2 real issues, grey slides for females and plastic encased rank on flight suits, have been resolved by Vanguard.

Agree with Flying Terp

There has been entirely too much time being taken to approve all these uniform items to make us stand out from everybody just to maintain our "corporate culture"

How about spending a little more time with other agencies and getting our MOU's up to date with the States EM agencies, getting the 20+yr old Specialty Tracks up to date, making sure EVERY Wing is up on its FITS G1000 training and holding that programs feet to the fire.

It is time for the CAP leadership to stop worrying about every little bling, uniform, and new awards to be presented to the membership.....

Conserve our membership resources in this time of layooffs and corporate handouts and get to the real work.

Those "volunteers" at the NEB and NHQ- CAP could really spend a little more time on the important stuff..

AND by the way  get rid of those SILLY plastic encased insignia.... the REAL MILITARY got rid of 'em a LONG time ago. 

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2009, 01:51:58 PM
Silver commissioning braid on the CSU service dress: Just looks plain gaudy. Either remove it altogether or choose another complementary color. The AF may not like us having dark blue braid, further making our CSU even closer to AF-style. If another color is chosen, make it either black (but slightly wider than the current 1/2") or ultramarine blue. Red, while it hearkens back to old-school CAP heritage, just does NOT look good on the dark blue color.

Silver chinstrap on the bus driver hat: No biggie if we go back to leather. Our cap device is distinctive enough that it shouldn't have any confusion with the AF cap device. Besides, the silver chinstrap tends to be fragile.

Sweaters and cardigans with corporate service uniform: Still needs some work so as not to enrage Ma Blue.

Military badges and ribbons on CSU/grays: Nix on badges, ribbons OK by me if the services don't have a cow over it.

Wear of CAP mini-medals on CSU: Yes. As it currently stands, the CSU with black bow tie, ribbons and no nametag is nothing more than semiformal. There is no CSU equivalent to mess dress other than appropriate civilian attire. If mini medals are approved, the bottom row of medals should not be worn below the lower seam of the welt pocket.

Blue parka for CSU: Agree on avoiding blue as the color, as it might be confused with Ma Blue, though the actual issue N2B parka is sage green (do they make it in other colors?)

Dropping the CSU/TPU from the next batch of ICL revisions solves all of these issues.  ;)  Non-concur on military badges and ribbons on the TPU.  Keep it CAP only like the aviator shirt... Then you have no issue with it not being authorized by [insert service uniform regulation].  Seriously, just call it a mistake and move on.

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2009, 01:51:58 PMLightweight blue jacket embroidery: Nix on that. I wouldn't mind a CAP emblem instead of the Hap Arnold 'tangram', thus making it probably acceptable for corporate uniform use. Did you notice the special jackets worn by the Presidential Airlift Group on the recent Air Force one TV special? They're nothing more than the AF blue lightweight jacket with name and presidential seal embroidered on it. (Yeah, there's one draped on the CinC's AF1 chair but that's usually worn only on the airplane.)

As one who was wearing this jacket as both the AF style lightweight-blue jacket and the Coast Guard Auxiliary windbreaker, don't care for the embroidery.

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2009, 01:51:58 PMCAP Astronaut Designator: Congrats on Col Boe being the first current CAP member to fly in space. He already gets the shooting star on the AF pilot wings and the gold shooting star lapel pin for civilian clothes. But to create a new designator CAP-wide? Very poorly thought out. I can see a one-of-a-kind presentation badge being presented to Col Boe and other future CAP astronauts, but not a general wear aeronautical rating or badge.

I don't really think this is needed... either wear the military badge on the AF-style uniform, or wear the lapel pin on the blazer.

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2009, 01:51:58 PMCommander's Badge Wear: No problem with that, even if it means ditching the Command Service Ribbon. (It looks almost identical to the Community Service Ribbon.) If they should want to add a 'toilet seat' to the star of the 'group guru' badge to denote wing or higher command service later on, I don't have a problem. IIRC the NB/NEC badge is only worn during the term of office - please correct me if I'm wrong. Also clarify wear of the CC badge on flight suit name tags to sitting commanders only.

Ditch the Group Commanders badge.  Mirror USAF policy  for wear of the one badge... i.e. Col and below.  Getting rid of the Command Service Ribbon solves the Community Service Ribbon issue, even if I thought that was lame.

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2009, 01:51:58 PMFlight suit grade devices: I'd rather see the plastic grade insignia go the way of the dodo, but if a reliable supplier has been found, keep it around a little longer. If you wanna wear cloth grade on the bag, wear corporate blue. I already do. And it's not purple, it's dark blue.

Stubbornness means a missed opportunity IMO... They had the dark blue flight suit grade already ready.  Could have been either or like the blue bags.

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2009, 01:51:58 PMOptional patches on BDU left shoulder: We need a uniform wear standard - either all wings wear wing patches or all do not. This is just a 'legalization' of the wear of the ranger school patch on the left shoulder. No big deal for me.

Changing over to dark blue tapes on BDU: Dark blue looks better on BBDU. I'd wait until the BDU/ABU issue is reslolved before picking a tape color for those uniforms.

Never did like that commanders turned around and made an "optional" patch mandatory, so I say get rid of the [darn] things.  This propposal is unclear as to it's actual purpose... be it ranger bling, or other unauthorized patches coming out of "local" actvities... but non-concur anyway.

And on the BDU tapes, and the patches... stop screwing with the BDU and let it die an honorable death... Wait for ABUs.

MIKE, have you been to a Wing Conference lately?  Many times the CSUs greatly outnumber the USAF Style.

Getting rid of the CSU based on purely the purid "political" reasons of an already bygone era would constitute the wasting of likely tens of thousdands of volunteer dollars.  I do not own the uniform, however, it is something many CAP Officers have made an investment on.

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 31, 2009, 05:17:11 PM
MIKE, have you been to a Wing Conference lately?  Many times the CSUs greatly outnumber the USAF Style.

Not in our Wing.  I could count the number of CSUs on one hand with fingers to spare.  YMMV.

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 31, 2009, 05:17:11 PM
MIKE, have you been to a Wing Conference lately?  Many times the CSUs greatly outnumber the USAF Style.

Getting rid of the CSU based on purely the purid "political" reasons of an already bygone era would constitute the wasting of likely tens of thousdands of volunteer dollars.  I do not own the uniform, however, it is something many CAP Officers have made an investment on.

CAP should buy the uniforms back, then send HWSRN the bill!

I do agree though, the damage has been done, and dropping the uniform would be a tremendous waste of volunteer dollars. However, I would certainly like to see the emphasis placed on it dropped. When I joined CAP nearly everyone who met the weight and grooming standards wore USAF-style. THose who didn't wore the white and greys and the blazer, and they didn't gripe about it.

BTW, haven't the ICLs authorizing the CSU expired yet? >:D

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2009, 01:51:58 PMEaker mini medal: About time they got off their duff and give proper recognition to former cadinks who completed all achievements in the cadet program but did not make it all the way to the Spaatz. The mini-medal may only be worn by senior members on mess dress, but that doesn't preclude giving it as a presentation item along with the certificate.

Why not? Not everyone gets the Spaatz. I've known plenty of folks that just missed it, so I don't see any problems. Presentation idea sounds good too.

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2009, 01:51:58 PMGray female shoulder marks: Apparently someone forgot about that... how many times I've seen female senior members have to tuck in or heavily modify gray shoulder marks, with less than stellar results? At least that will fix that problem

Agreed. A lot of our insignia are "one size fits or it doesn't" items. We would have more professional appearance by having a few things made in appropriate sizes.

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2009, 01:51:58 PM[Silver commissioning braid on the CSU service dress: Just looks plain gaudy. Either remove it altogether or choose another complementary color. The AF may not like us having dark blue braid, further making our CSU even closer to AF-style. If another color is chosen, make it either black (but slightly wider than the current 1/2") or ultramarine blue. Red, while it hearkens back to old-school CAP heritage, just does NOT look good on the dark blue color.

Agreed on "gaudy". No problem with blue braid, the Air Force has indicated that they don't care. Black wouldn't bother me, either.

But "slightly wider"? Disagree. No reason to create or hunt down a source for something that's out of the traditional sizes. Go with what is available.

Also agree on a red braid issue. I don't think anyone would even seriously try it.

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2009, 01:51:58 PM[Silver chinstrap on the bus driver hat: No biggie if we go back to leather. Our cap device is distinctive enough that it shouldn't have any confusion with the AF cap device. Besides, the silver chinstrap tends to be fragile.

Highly agree.

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2009, 01:51:58 PMLightweight blue jacket embroidery: Nix on that. I wouldn't mind a CAP emblem instead of the Hap Arnold 'tangram', thus making it probably acceptable for corporate uniform use.

I wouldn't mind, would probably do the same, but I would follow the AF and make it strictly optional. Then again, the same embroidery on jackets and the trenchcoat might make it distinctive enough to wear with corporates.

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2009, 01:51:58 PM[Did you notice the special jackets worn by the Presidential Airlift Group on the recent Air Force one TV special? They're nothing more than the AF blue lightweight jacket with name and presidential seal embroidered on it. (Yeah, there's one draped on the CinC's AF1 chair but that's usually worn only on the airplane.)

Actually, incorrect. I've seen those jackets close up, and there is as much difference between those jackets and the standard lightweight jacket as there is between Air Force general officer lightweight jackets and the standard ones. We don't have a need for it, so it's really a non-issue. Personally, I think our Generals ought to be able to wear the Air Force General Officer windbreakers, but's it not really a need, just a fancy.

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2009, 01:51:58 PMCAP Astronaut Designator: Congrats on Col Boe being the first current CAP member to fly in space. He already gets the shooting star on the AF pilot wings and the gold shooting star lapel pin for civilian clothes. But to create a new designator CAP-wide? Very poorly thought out. I can see a one-of-a-kind presentation badge being presented to Col Boe and other future CAP astronauts, but not a general wear aeronautical rating or badge.

Agreed. No reason to create an insignia for one person. And he has the option of wearing his AF wings on CAP blue uniforms. A set of wings just for him is unnecessary.

The Air Force says the following of the astronaut qualifier (AFI 11-402, Table 2-7, Note 7): "When an AF member qualifies for the Astronaut qualifier, the Astronaut Qualifier symbol may be worn (superimposed) on the rated badge they are eligible to wear. This is not a separate USAF rating."

Allowing that designator on CAP wings, I wouldn't have any heartburn with. But it could create an image that CAP personnel could become astronauts. Probably best that he just stick with his AF wings that he's allowed the designator on.

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2009, 01:51:58 PMCommander's Badge Wear: No problem with that, even if it means ditching the Command Service Ribbon. (It looks almost identical to the Community Service Ribbon.) If they should want to add a 'toilet seat' to the star of the 'group guru' badge to denote wing or higher command service later on, I don't have a problem. IIRC the NB/NEC badge is only worn during the term of office - please correct me if I'm wrong. Also clarify wear of the CC badge on flight suit name tags to sitting commanders only.

I wouldn't have any problem with mirroring Air force wear, and allowing folks to "re-use" the badge in the same manner. Why make them take off a badge and replace it with a ribbon?

I don't care for the practice of different badges for different levels. Doesn't seem to be necesasary to me. One badge, move it below the pocket when you move on.

Agreed on no CC badge on a flightsuit nametag unless sitting commander. Would avoid confusion. Mirroring AF wear on blues would indicate who a current commander is. Per the ABU message, command insignia is not authorized on the ABU. Puzzling, though, a First Sergeant could wear an insignia (stripes) to indicate his status, but a commander can't? Curious as to the reasoning, but if that's how they want it...

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2009, 01:51:58 PMWear of CAP mini-medals on CSU: Yes. As it currently stands, the CSU with black bow tie, ribbons and no nametag is nothing more than semiformal. There is no CSU equivalent to mess dress other than appropriate civilian attire.

Medals, yes. Mini medals, no. I just don't think minis look right on a coat like that. The nearest jacket pattern is the Army Blue. Full size would look far better. But, we don't have those for all medals (then again, we have a mini medal for almost every ribbon we have. It can be too much. I think we ought to reduce the number of medals to actuals, both to reduce the abundance and give some of the higher ones meaning, but that's another topic altogether.)

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2009, 01:51:58 PMOptional patches on BDU left shoulder: We need a uniform wear standard - either all wings wear wing patches or all do not. This is just a 'legalization' of the wear of the ranger school patch on the left shoulder. No big deal for me.

Don't really see the point of shoulder patches anymore. Exept for enlisted rank, the AF puts everything on the front of the uniform, not the sides. Not sure I'd care to see the ES patch on ABU's. I still think the idea of a General ES badge has merit. Would reduce the amount of real estate on the uniform. Would be cheaper too.

Never saw the point of an Army oriented flag either. I've very rarely seen an airman in an Air Force uniform wearing a right handed flag. I know the Army oriented stuff is widely available, but it's still an Army practice. Stick the flag on the left side, you can use flightsuit flags for the purpose.

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2009, 01:51:58 PMBlue parka for CSU: Agree on avoiding blue as the color, as it might be confused with Ma Blue, though the actual issue N2B parka is sage green (do they make it in other colors?)

Blue parka? Hadn't seen that. And yes, you can get get both N2Bs, and N3Bs in numerous other colors.

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2009, 01:51:58 PMChanging over to dark blue tapes on BDU: Dark blue looks better on BBDU. I'd wait until the BDU/ABU issue is reslolved before picking a tape color for those uniforms.

Agreed. Would match AF stripes better, officer rank is available that matches as well. Probably best to leave the BDU alone, it's eventually going away.

BTW, anyone know where I can get a copy of the newest NB agenda? Haven't seen it yet.

Quote from: A.Member on January 31, 2009, 05:19:42 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 31, 2009, 05:17:11 PM
MIKE, have you been to a Wing Conference lately?  Many times the CSUs greatly outnumber the USAF Style.

Not in our Wing.  I could count the number of CSUs on one hand with fingers to spare.  YMMV.

Which wing is that?

I am saddened to see that none of the grooming adjustments for the CSU made it through.  There was talk of having CAP grooming standards apply to ALL corporate uniforms including the CSU. This is minor however and I will shave if it is required.

I am in favor of the all grey epaulets for all uniforms and discontinuing the of the white/grey all together and allowing khakis with the polo shirts.


As a veteran who cannot wear the AF style uniform(which is directly relates to my service connected disability), the no ribbon rule actually BURNS MY 4TH POINT OF CONTACT! If the argument is we need to consider the other services.... then do NOT ALLOW THEM ON ANY UNIFORMS INCLUDING THE AF STYLE.  All or nothing, let's be fair.  Oh but those who wear the AF style say "But I earned them" here's a news flash........SO DID I!!!! what makes your service any more relative and worthy of recognition than mine?

I am in favor of the mini medals on the CSU for formal wear

Quote from: cap235629 on January 31, 2009, 06:43:54 PM
I am saddened to see that none of the grooming adjustments for the CSU made it through.  There was talk of having CAP grooming standards apply to ALL corporate uniforms including the CSU. This is minor however and I will shave if it is required.

What "grooming adjustments".  Everything but weight applies to the CSU, which is the point of the CSU.  Doing that to the whites would defeat their purpose.

As to the ribbons, the prohibition of military ribbons on the corporate distinctive uniforms has been in place since they brought the distinctive uniforms into the catalog. 

Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 06:56:52 PM

Quote from: cap235629 on January 31, 2009, 06:43:54 PM
I am saddened to see that none of the grooming adjustments for the CSU made it through.  There was talk of having CAP grooming standards apply to ALL corporate uniforms including the CSU. This is minor however and I will shave if it is required.

What "grooming adjustments".  Everything but weight applies to the CSU, which is the point of the CSU.  Doing that to the whites would defeat their purpose.

As to the ribbons, the prohibition of military ribbons on the corporate distinctive uniforms has been in place since they brought the distinctive uniforms into the catalog. 

If you change the grooming on the white/blues you can ditch the white/grays and possibly the blazer which is a good thing IMHO. The grays just don't look professional to me.

There was talk during the last round of uniform committee posts that neatly trimmed beards in keeping with the National Public Health Service would be allowed, again no big deal, but momma likes the goatee and remember happy wife, happy life.    ;D

The ribbons issue has been a point of contention for me since I rejoined CAP after a 10 year break (the ensuing years is when the corporate uniforms came into being with regard to the white/grey, BBDU etc.)  When the CSU was introduced I had high hopes of keeping Ma Blue happy but also seeing parity across the board.  It hasn't happened.  Kinda makes me feel like some folks think they are more CAP than others.

I can understand and advocate having 1 and only 1 alternative to each of the AF style uniforms, but everything else should be the same, INCLUDING what can be worn on the uniform

When they introduced the blue slacks aviator shirt uniform it seemed like CAP was trying to move in the right direction. I bought the uniform before NB decided to exclude folks like myself who have a goatee. Same deal for me with the Wife. She likes the goatee. She was horrified the one time she saw me without it. Anymore when I go to CDRs Call or any other CAP event the only uniform I wear is the BBDU. I wonder what the reactions must have been to the ambitious uniform changes proposed last year. Has anyone heard?

QuoteOh but those who wear the AF style say "But I earned them" here's a news flash........SO DID I!!!! what makes your service any more relative and worthy of recognition than mine?

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Quote from: cap235629 on January 31, 2009, 07:11:30 PMThe ribbons issue has been a point of contention for me since I rejoined CAP after a 10 year break (the ensuing years is when the corporate uniforms came into being with regard to the white/grey, BBDU etc.)  When the CSU was introduced I had high hopes of keeping Ma Blue happy but also seeing parity across the board.  It hasn't happened.  Kinda makes me feel like some folks think they are more CAP than others.

I can understand and advocate having 1 and only 1 alternative to each of the AF style uniforms, but everything else should be the same, INCLUDING what can be worn on the uniform

Are you willing to tell the Air Force to allow their decs on civilian clothing? Because as far as the Air Force is concerned, the CSU and the blazer combos are civilian clothing. Their decorations, their insignia, their rules.

It seems like you believe that CAP is the one that disallows the wear of those items. They're not.  The blues are a variant of the Air Force uniform, no matter how much CAP says it's Air Force styled. Per 39-1, it has to be an Air Force approved item to wear. That's why decs are permitted.

I empathize with your having a disability that doesn't allow you to wear blues, I really do. But make sure you understand who the controlling party is on those rules. To be blunt, it's rather selfish to say "since I can't wear them, no one else should be able to either".  No one has taken  away what you earned. Put them in a shadow box, stick it in your office, people will see them.

As to sameness, I would agree. I may have missed an ICL or three, but only a few badges on one uniform, more on others, worn differently on various ones. Impractical, and not well thought out. I would be simpler to say: "XXXX Badge is worn one half inch above nametag on dress uniforms" rather than "XXXX Badge will be worn here on the blues, here on the CSU, here on the blazer." That seems a little loony to me.

Addressing beards and the CSU, I don't see why it was restricted anyway. A neatly trimmed beard or goatee would look fine with it. It may look like a military uniform, but's it not one. Why should beards be restricted? I would put some limits on hair length though. A three foot ponytail wouldn't look right with any uniform, be the wearer male or female.

The DoD ribbon issue is why I recommended to my wing commander that NHQ ask each service (USA, USAF, USMC, USN, USCG) for express permission to wear thier respective ribbons on the CAP corporate uniforms. If they say no, so be it, but at least then there will be no question about it.

Now, I know someone will raise the possibility that one or more services may prohibit wear of their ribbons and/or badges on ANY CAP uniform, so we shouldn't bring our current policies to their attention. That's a BS excuse. If a service decides they do not want us wearing their decorations, that is their right. After all, they're their decorations.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 31, 2009, 07:48:07 PM
Addressing beards and the CSU, I don't see why it was restricted anyway. A neatly trimmed beard or goatee would look fine with it. It may look like a military uniform, but's it not one. Why should beards be restricted? I would put some limits on hair length though. A three foot ponytail wouldn't look right with any uniform, be the wearer male or female.

Its a military-style uniform, and the intention was to allow for a military-look and cut for members who are in grooming except for weight. 

The issue with hair and beards is the subjective nature of what people would think is "too long".  Give then a 1-inch beard and those with two-inchs of hair will complain, and call the guys with a ruler checking uniform stasi.

Its fine the way it is, wear the whites or hit the barber, we're lucky we have a corporate option at all.

Quote from: arajca on January 31, 2009, 08:43:35 PM
The DoD ribbon issue is why I recommended to my wing commander that NHQ ask each service (USA, USAF, USMC, USN, USCG) for express permission to wear thier respective ribbons on the CAP corporate uniforms. If they say no, so be it, but at least then there will be no question about it.

I agree. Asking is completely free. Personally, I don't have a problem with mil decs worn on Corporate uniforms, and I think it would be a good thing. But we need the permission, and shouldn't be asking forgiveness.

Quote from: arajca on January 31, 2009, 08:43:35 PMNow, I know someone will raise the possibility that one or more services may prohibit wear of their ribbons and/or badges on ANY CAP uniform, so we shouldn't bring our current policies to their attention. That's a BS excuse. If a service decides they do not want us wearing their decorations, that is their right. After all, they're their decorations.

I agree. If they don't want it, fine. By asking, we're making them tell us "No", instead of just assuming it.

How do we know that this wasn't done decades ago? 

Why do we need military decorations on a CAP uniform at all?  Police and Fire departments issue ribbons but you don't see their military service ribbons on those uniforms.

What purpose does it serve to artificially grow the ribbon rack?  You see it all the time, shiny-new CAP butter bars with a 2-inch stack, sometimes without anything CAP in there.

Your ribbons tell your story to people who know what they are.  At a glance I can pretty much tell where you've been and what you've done.  Not so with something from some other service.  Yes, it tells me you served, somewhere, sometime, somehow. However in most cases that service doesn't have a whole lot of "right now" relevance in CAP.

"I earned them, I should be able to wear them!"

You didn't earn them in CAP, and the have no relevance here...

I'm not advocating they be removed, only asking why they are there to start with.

Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 08:52:51 PMIts a military-style uniform, and the intention was to allow for a military-look and cut for members who are in grooming except for weight. 

I agree, it is a military style uniform. Doesn't change the fact that it isn't one.

Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 08:52:51 PMThe issue with hair and beards is the subjective nature of what people would think is "too long".  Give then a 1-inch beard and those with two-inchs of hair will complain, and call the guys with a ruler checking uniform stasi.

True. But there is precedent for such uniforms, the Public Health Service. They allow beards, and even have a similar double breasted coat design. I'd say follow theirs instead of just an arbitrary rule. 

According to their directives: "Facial Hair. If a beard and/or mustache is worn, it shall be neatly trimmed and groomed at all times, so as to avoid a ragged appearance. A beard may be either full or partial; however, patches or spots of facial hair are not considered a beard and are not authorized. The bulk of a beard (the distance that the mass of the facial hair protrudes from the skin) shall not exceed one-half inch, and the length of individual facial hair shall not exceed one inch.

As for the "stasi", the same can be easily said of hair length regulations. The thing is that there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Following a given precedent on beards is probably a smarter way to go. Make people aware when they join that there are standards to be adhered to. Period. No ignoring regs because you didn't read the fine print.

Quote from: RiverAux on January 31, 2009, 09:06:10 PM
How do we know that this wasn't done decades ago? 

We don't. So we ask now.

Before I check on something else, does anyone have a link to the upcoming National Board agenda? Would kinda like to read it.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 31, 2009, 09:45:10 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 08:52:51 PMIts a military-style uniform, and the intention was to allow for a military-look and cut for members who are in grooming except for weight. 

I agree, it is a military style uniform. Doesn't change the fact that it isn't one.

Actually, nothing CAP members wear is a military uniform.  Service dress, flight suits, BDU's, are all military styled uniforms.

QuoteWhy do we need military decorations on a CAP uniform at all?  Police and Fire departments issue ribbons but you don't see their military service ribbons on those uniforms.

What purpose does it serve to artificially grow the ribbon rack?  You see it all the time, shiny-new CAP butter bars with a 2-inch stack, sometimes without anything CAP in there.

It makes sense in the light of the CAP practice of giving special appointment promotions to prior military personnel (much as I dislike that practice).  Because we have chosen to recognize military experience in this way, it also makes sense to wear military ribbons that have been rightfully earned -- after all we are an auxiliary of a military service.  By the way the same arguement can be used to say that those in one service shouldn't wear ribbons earned in another. 

Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 10:10:01 PM
Actually, nothing CAP members wear is a military uniform.  Service dress, flight suits, BDU's, are all military styled uniforms.

Once again, incorrect. Per CAPM 39-1: "Uniform items that do not meet Air Force specifications are not authorized for wear. Each uniform item must have this label sewn or stamped on permanently: "USAF CERTIFICATE NO _______. A sample of this item has been inspected and meets or exceeds the quality prescribed by AF Specification _____."

You can call both a rose and horse crap by other names, and it doesn't change what they are. Same thing with our flightsuits, BDU's, etc. They are military standard items worn with CAP insignia. If you aren't wearing something that has been approved by the Air Force, you're wrong.

And, calling it all "styled" leads to some bad thought processes: "It doesn't matter if I wear it right, it's only an Air Force style uniform!" or "The Air Force can't tell us what to do with it, it's not theirs, it's only styled like theirs!" (this reasoning seems to be common, even if it's not put into words.) The Air Force allows us to wear it with our own distinctive insignia. It's a variant of what they wear, they're not "similar" clothes, not "kinda like" Air Force garments, they are AF uniforms with our insignia. It's not CAP's uniform, it's the Air Force's uniform.

So, once again: Anyone got something for the 2009 NB agenda?

See this thread fror a linky to the agenda: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7118.0

Quote from: RiverAux on January 31, 2009, 09:06:10 PM
How do we know that this wasn't done decades ago? 

USAF's opinions change over time.  At first we asked and USAF said no to the BDU Gortex...but later they changed their mind.

Once apon a time a CAP NAT/CC promoted himself to Maj Gen....the USAF had a problem about that...but two (three?) commander's later they did not have a problem with it.

USAF AFI's don't allow you to wear ribbons on civilain clothing.  That was the standard answer back in the day with the aviatior shirt.  The AFI still exists but maybe now the USAF may not have a problem with it.

but AR 670-1 does allow it for veterans with wartime service

Quote from: cap235629 on January 31, 2009, 11:48:33 PM
but AR 670-1 does allow it for veterans with wartime service

Thats why we need to ask each service.  it's up to them to say: Yes, No, or With these conditions.

Quote from: lordmonar on January 31, 2009, 11:45:21 PM

Quote from: RiverAux on January 31, 2009, 09:06:10 PM
How do we know that this wasn't done decades ago? 

USAF's opinions change over time.  At first we asked and USAF said no to the BDU Gortex...but later they changed their mind.

Once apon a time a CAP NAT/CC promoted himself to Maj Gen....the USAF had a problem about that...but two (three?) commander's later they did not have a problem with it.

USAF AFI's don't allow you to wear ribbons on civilain clothing.  That was the standard answer back in the day with the aviatior shirt.  The AFI still exists but maybe now the USAF may not have a problem with it.

I was responding to the part of the thread worried about other military services that might not give CAP the authority to wear their ribbons on our AF-style uniforms.  Since we've been doing it for decades, I'd say that if they had a problem with it or had never approved it, we would know about it by now.  As regards CAP corporate uniforms, I suspect that CAP-USAF would probably check into this and include what they find in their recommendation.  It isn't CAP's place to ask the other services directly. 

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 31, 2009, 10:32:15 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 10:10:01 PM
Actually, nothing CAP members wear is a military uniform.  Service dress, flight suits, BDU's, are all military styled uniforms.

Once again, incorrect. Per CAPM 39-1: "Uniform items that do not meet Air Force specifications are not authorized for wear. Each uniform item must have this label sewn or stamped on permanently: "USAF CERTIFICATE NO _______. A sample of this item has been inspected and meets or exceeds the quality prescribed by AF Specification _____."

You can call both a rose and horse crap by other names, and it doesn't change what they are. Same thing with our flightsuits, BDU's, etc. They are military standard items worn with CAP insignia. If you aren't wearing something that has been approved by the Air Force, you're wrong.

Then by your definition, the CSU is a military uniform.

Pants - USAF
Belt - USAF
Flight Cap - USAF
Wheel CAP - USAF
Grade Insignia - USAF
Waist jacket - USA/USN
Tie - USAF
Shoes - usually high-parade gloss, same as USAF.

Only thing not mil-spec is the shirt and service coats, but not everyone has a service coat.

Military-spec parts with CAP insingia = military uniform in your definition.

Quote from: RogueLeader on January 31, 2009, 11:55:30 PM

Quote from: cap235629 on January 31, 2009, 11:48:33 PM
but AR 670-1 does allow it for veterans with wartime service

Thats why we need to ask each service.  it's up to them to say: Yes, No, or With these conditions.

How about we ask the commander of the Congressional Squadron, Col (Senator)Tom Harken if he could introduce a bill that would allow CAP to wear their military ribbons.  That would take care of everything, except those who don't like military awards (I think that it was the CAP/JA who stated that he doesn't think that CAP members should wear anything having to do with combat - I guess he'd take away the air medals from the WW2 subchasers.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 31, 2009, 09:45:10 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 08:52:51 PMThe issue with hair and beards is the subjective nature of what people would think is "too long".  Give then a 1-inch beard and those with two-inchs of hair will complain, and call the guys with a ruler checking uniform stasi.

True. But there is precedent for such uniforms, the Public Health Service. They allow beards, and even have a similar double breasted coat design. I'd say follow theirs instead of just an arbitrary rule. 

According to their directives: "Facial Hair. If a beard and/or mustache is worn, it shall be neatly trimmed and groomed at all times, so as to avoid a ragged appearance. A beard may be either full or partial; however, patches or spots of facial hair are not considered a beard and are not authorized. The bulk of a beard (the distance that the mass of the facial hair protrudes from the skin) shall not exceed one-half inch, and the length of individual facial hair shall not exceed one inch.

This may be getting off topic, but it was because of the inability of younger Navy members (18-25 or so) to comply with a similar USN regulation that was a significant reason for beards to be banned in the Navy. The bolded part was the biggest problem. I foresee this as a problem if beard rules are relaxed in CAP.

FWIW, I maintain my beard today in the same manner I did WIWOAD, and think I maintain a more military overall appearance than many of our heavy members. I still meet military weight standards at 59.929.

My take on the NB uniform proposals.

I am working on a design for the Eaker medal...

I do not feel that we whould wear any RM ribbons or badges on the CSU uniform period!

I am neutral on the Command Badge and its wear after term of Command is gone.

Quote from: SarDragon on February 01, 2009, 06:33:13 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 31, 2009, 09:45:10 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 08:52:51 PMThe issue with hair and beards is the subjective nature of what people would think is "too long".  Give then a 1-inch beard and those with two-inchs of hair will complain, and call the guys with a ruler checking uniform stasi.

True. But there is precedent for such uniforms, the Public Health Service. They allow beards, and even have a similar double breasted coat design. I'd say follow theirs instead of just an arbitrary rule. 

According to their directives: "Facial Hair. If a beard and/or mustache is worn, it shall be neatly trimmed and groomed at all times, so as to avoid a ragged appearance. A beard may be either full or partial; however, patches or spots of facial hair are not considered a beard and are not authorized. The bulk of a beard (the distance that the mass of the facial hair protrudes from the skin) shall not exceed one-half inch, and the length of individual facial hair shall not exceed one inch.

This may be getting off topic, but it was because of the inability of younger Navy members (18-25 or so) to comply with a similar USN regulation that was a significant reason for beards to be banned in the Navy. The bolded part was the biggest problem. I foresee this as a problem if beard rules are relaxed in CAP.

FWIW, I maintain my beard today in the same manner I did WIWOAD, and think I maintain a more military overall appearance than many of our heavy members. I still meet military weight standards at 59.929.

Hypothetically speaking if we were to adopt that rule would goatees fly or not? My lovely wife won't let be wear blues at the moment because she likes my goatee.

Goatees (if well trimmed) are not scraggly patches of facial hair. It would qualify as a beard, though partial under the PHS beard rule.

Goatees were permitted in the Navy, and, IIRC, fit into the PHS rules. They had to meet the bulk and length requirements.

Quote from: SarDragon on February 01, 2009, 08:29:03 PM
Goatees were permitted in the Navy, and, IIRC, fit into the PHS rules. They had to meet the bulk and length requirements.

Sorry folks, PHS no longer allows beards since January 2008. They're trying to align themselves with the armed forces.

Quote from: BGNightfall on January 31, 2009, 07:45:08 PM

QuoteOh but those who wear the AF style say "But I earned them" here's a news flash........SO DID I!!!! what makes your service any more relative and worthy of recognition than mine?

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Quote from: Eclipse on February 01, 2009, 04:02:28 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 31, 2009, 10:32:15 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 10:10:01 PM
Actually, nothing CAP members wear is a military uniform.  Service dress, flight suits, BDU's, are all military styled uniforms.

Once again, incorrect. Per CAPM 39-1: "Uniform items that do not meet Air Force specifications are not authorized for wear. Each uniform item must have this label sewn or stamped on permanently: "USAF CERTIFICATE NO _______. A sample of this item has been inspected and meets or exceeds the quality prescribed by AF Specification _____."

You can call both a rose and horse crap by other names, and it doesn't change what they are. Same thing with our flightsuits, BDU's, etc. They are military standard items worn with CAP insignia. If you aren't wearing something that has been approved by the Air Force, you're wrong.

Then by your definition, the CSU is a military uniform.

Pants - USAF
Belt - USAF
Flight Cap - USAF
Wheel CAP - USAF
Grade Insignia - USAF
Waist jacket - USA/USN
Tie - USAF
Shoes - usually high-parade gloss, same as USAF.

Only thing not mil-spec is the shirt and service coats, but not everyone has a service coat.

Military-spec parts with CAP insingia = military uniform in your definition.

I know you simply want to argue the point, but answer me this: What branch of service wears the CSU in it's entirety with only their insignia to differentiate? I doubt you can show me one. Pieces and parts of military uniforms don't make it a military uniform.

I don't have a definition of a military uniform, the  branches of service do. Second, the certification on Air Force uniform items does not apply to CSU items. Never did, and couldn't. So your reasoning is flawed and twists the facts.

In the interest of not creating a free for all, I'm willing to drop the subject. There are facts, and there are opinions. Opinions vary, facts do not.

Overall, when it comes to the issues of facial hair, I've got no problem with them with the CSU. I don't have a problem with badges and decs with the CSU. It allows those who served to continue their wear in a paramilitary organization.

And even though I personally don't care for the CSU, I have to admit in good conscience that it is far more uniform than the blazer combination. You can have numerous different blazers and grey slacks and white shirts, each individual could be in compliance with the manual and still not look exactly like the person next to them wearing the same "uniform". The CSU eliminates this problem.

Quote from: caphistorian on February 01, 2009, 10:34:39 AM
My take on the NB uniform proposals.

I do not feel that we whould wear any RM ribbons or badges on the CSU uniform period!

[changed] I thought better of it.  Sorry if I offended anyone, especially caphistorian.

Quote from: Gunner C on February 02, 2009, 01:59:53 AM

Quote from: caphistorian on February 01, 2009, 10:34:39 AM
My take on the NB uniform proposals.

I do not feel that we whould wear any RM ribbons or badges on the CSU uniform period!

[changed] I thought better of it.  Sorry if I offended anyone, especially caphistorian.

I have been working all day and have not seen any posts to me. I am clueless!

Quote from: caphistorian on February 02, 2009, 03:01:11 AM

Quote from: Gunner C on February 02, 2009, 01:59:53 AM

Quote from: caphistorian on February 01, 2009, 10:34:39 AM
My take on the NB uniform proposals.

I do not feel that we whould wear any RM ribbons or badges on the CSU uniform period!

[changed] I thought better of it.  Sorry if I offended anyone, especially caphistorian.

I have been working all day and have not seen any posts to me. I am clueless!

It wasn't gentlemanly.  My apologies.

Forgive me if this question has already been answered. Does the AF make the final call on eligibility to wear the CSU or the ribbons on it?  It seem like so much of what was debated and proposed for uniform changes is not on the table at all.  Did the AF take the proposals off the table or were they deleted by the "Uniform Team"?

Eaker mini medal: If the Mitchell, Earhart and Spaatz have mess-dress recognition, yeah, why has it taken so long? But that said...

NCGC mini medal: Why does every ribbon need to have a CAP miniature medal? In the Air Force, only medals have miniatures for the mess dress uniform. Many ribbons and awards don't. Of course, that means only three CAP commendations could be worn -- the SMV, BMV and DSM. Maybe it's time to reconsider what are medals and what aren't. (When I'm in my mess dress and Real Air Force officers are addressing me as "General" because of my medal stack, something's wrong.)

Gray female shoulder marks: An idea that, surprisingly, wasn't addressed until now?

Silver commissioning braid on the CSU service dress: Isn't the CSU dead, since ICLs only last 90 days? Unless we're picking and choosing which regulations to follow, anyway....

Silver chinstrap on the bus driver hat: See previous entry.

Lightweight blue jacket embroidery: Unnecessary.

CAP Astronaut Designator: Col. Boe's Air Force astronaut wings are quite enough. A set of CAP wings would only be created with one member in mind, so it doesn't make any sense at all.

Commander's Badge Wear: It's a great idea. It's also a great idea to nix the group commander's badge, since the idea is to recognize those who served as commanders, not at what level they serve. And I dare say bird colonels in CAP don't need them -- 9.5 out of 10 CAP colonels were wing commanders to begin with.

Flight suit grade devices: Ditch the plastic. Cloth, blue background, and get it over with, already.

Sweaters and cardigans with corporate service uniform: Again: Isn't the CSU an illegal uniform by now?

Military badges and ribbons on CSU/grays: Doesn't make sense, but I have no real opinion.

Wear of CAP mini-medals on CSU: Again, the CSU is an illegal uniform until it shows up in the CAPM 39-1, or unless Gen. Courter issues another ICL. This should be a moot point....

Optional patches on BDU left shoulder: Yank the shoulder patches, already! All of them! We treat our Air Force utility uniforms like NASCAR jumpsuits or Boy Scout sashes, and it's sometimes ridiculous.

Changing over to dark blue tapes on BDU: Not a bad idea, as long as there's a phase-in period.

Truth is, there's too many options. If the National Board wants to play with the uniforms, it should have an eye for SIMPLIFYING and consolidating the complicated maze of CAP uniform combinations, not for accommodating everyone who wants their own bling.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 31, 2009, 07:48:07 PM

Quote from: cap235629 on January 31, 2009, 07:11:30 PMThe ribbons issue has been a point of contention for me since I rejoined CAP after a 10 year break (the ensuing years is when the corporate uniforms came into being with regard to the white/grey, BBDU etc.)  When the CSU was introduced I had high hopes of keeping Ma Blue happy but also seeing parity across the board.  It hasn't happened.  Kinda makes me feel like some folks think they are more CAP than others.

I can understand and advocate having 1 and only 1 alternative to each of the AF style uniforms, but everything else should be the same, INCLUDING what can be worn on the uniform

Are you willing to tell the Air Force to allow their decs on civilian clothing? Because as far as the Air Force is concerned, the CSU and the blazer combos are civilian clothing. Their decorations, their insignia, their rules.

It seems like you believe that CAP is the one that disallows the wear of those items. They're not.  The blues are a variant of the Air Force uniform, no matter how much CAP says it's Air Force styled. Per 39-1, it has to be an Air Force approved item to wear. That's why decs are permitted.

I empathize with your having a disability that doesn't allow you to wear blues, I really do. But make sure you understand who the controlling party is on those rules. To be blunt, it's rather selfish to say "since I can't wear them, no one else should be able to either".  No one has taken  away what you earned. Put them in a shadow box, stick it in your office, people will see them.

As to sameness, I would agree. I may have missed an ICL or three, but only a few badges on one uniform, more on others, worn differently on various ones. Impractical, and not well thought out. I would be simpler to say: "XXXX Badge is worn one half inch above nametag on dress uniforms" rather than "XXXX Badge will be worn here on the blues, here on the CSU, here on the blazer." That seems a little loony to me.

Addressing beards and the CSU, I don't see why it was restricted anyway. A neatly trimmed beard or goatee would look fine with it. It may look like a military uniform, but's it not one. Why should beards be restricted? I would put some limits on hair length though. A three foot ponytail wouldn't look right with any uniform, be the wearer male or female.

The American Legion and VFW wear their ribbons on their uniforms, and sometimes even on their hat, and yet, somehow, the Defense of the United States does not come to a screeching halt. 

I say that if I earned them, I wear them.  Just like my gray hair.

Sorry Kach, but CAP is somehow unworthy of wearing military awards and decorations.  Pardon me whilst I wretch.

Gunner

Astronaut Wings?  YES, YES, YES!!!!!!  It isn't about honoring one person. It is about the PR value and the value of the example to the cadets in recognizing CAP members' achievements in aerospace.

Military Badges and Ribbons on the TPU?  YES!  The non-concurrence of the NLO sounds almost like he's ASHAMED to have combat veterans as members of CAP.  I hope he reads this, because I'd like to tell him he is full of fecal excrement.  I would tell him to his face, but CAP Headquarters has been moved to an undisclosed location.

Lose the silver braid?  YES!  However, since I like to tell people that I am a banana-republic dictator and offer waitresses jobs as Interior Minister of the Republic of Parador instead of tipping them, this may have some impact on my finances.

Quote from: sandman on February 01, 2009, 08:45:53 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on February 01, 2009, 08:29:03 PM
Goatees were permitted in the Navy, and, IIRC, fit into the PHS rules. They had to meet the bulk and length requirements.

Sorry folks, PHS no longer allows beards since January 2008. They're trying to align themselves with the armed forces.

Relevance?  The plan was to model the regs on their standards that at the time were the only current facial hair regs in the unifomed services.  Still a good standard in my opinion

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 02, 2009, 03:46:48 AM

Military Badges and Ribbons on the TPU?  YES!  The non-concurrence of the NLO sounds almost like he's ASHAMED to have combat veterans as members of CAP.  I hope he reads this, because I'd like to tell him he is full of fecal excrement.  I would tell him to his face, but CAP Headquarters has been moved to an undisclosed location.

I just pray that this opinion isn't shared by the majority, it sure doesn't seem to be very open minded or fair to those who are veterans

Do you suppose that many of the decision makers are concerned about retaining the hard working talent of the veterans who are quitting because of morale problems aggravated by issues which include confused uniform regulations?

Quote from: billford1 on February 02, 2009, 05:45:26 AM
Do you suppose that many of the decision makers are concerned about retaining the hard working talent of the veterans who are quitting because of morale problems aggravated by issues which include confused uniform regulations?

No, simply because there isn't anyone quitting because of the uniforms.

Not when a $17 golf shirt still fills the bill.

Quote from: billford1 on February 02, 2009, 05:45:26 AM
Do you suppose that many of the decision makers are concerned about retaining the hard working talent of the veterans who are quitting because of morale problems aggravated by issues which include confused uniform regulations?

No.

But nice try at derailing the thread.

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on February 02, 2009, 03:27:51 AMTruth is, there's too many options. If the National Board wants to play with the uniforms, it should have an eye for SIMPLIFYING and consolidating the complicated maze of CAP uniform combinations, not for accommodating everyone who wants their own bling.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Quote from: Rotorhead on February 02, 2009, 07:32:05 PM

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on February 02, 2009, 03:27:51 AMTruth is, there's too many options. If the National Board wants to play with the uniforms, it should have an eye for SIMPLIFYING and consolidating the complicated maze of CAP uniform combinations, not for accommodating everyone who wants their own bling.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

+ infinity!

Keep the Command Ribbon, it shows proof that that individual has earned it by being a Unit Commander or higher. Keep the badge but only for those who are currently in Command,
Now if they commanded previously to the current command position, they can wear the highest command ribbon or sticker (that two pronged pin) of their previous command(s) and the badge for their current level.
That's how I would solve that issue.

Quote from: ThorntonOL on February 02, 2009, 09:03:42 PM
Keep the Command Ribbon, it shows proof that that individual has earned it by being a Unit Commander or higher. Keep the badge but only for those who are currently in Command,
Now if they commanded previously to the current command position, they can wear the highest command ribbon or sticker (that two pronged pin) of their previous command(s) and the badge for their current level.
That's how I would solve that issue.

??

The issue....is to try to bring CAP uniform regulations more in line with USAF policies.

Someone mentioned earlier that police officer dont wear their military decorations on their police uniforms?  Id have to say, Yes we do.  Many agencies allow military decorations and badges to be worn on their police uniforms.  LAPD for one.  Also many others.  My department is authorizing it in the near future as well.

What part of our uniform regulations are we trying to get more in line and how?
We are not active duty, we're only civilians.
so what part of the agenda lists the items about getting in line with USAF policy.
(Can't see agenda file.)

Quote from: ThorntonOL on February 02, 2009, 10:28:35 PM
What part of our uniform regulations are we trying to get more in line and how?
We are not active duty, we're only civilians.
so what part of the agenda lists the items about getting in line with USAF policy.
(Can't see agenda file.)

I was talking specifically about the commander's badge for alumni commanders.

We may not be active duty...but we are the USAF Auxiliary.   Our uniforms should be as close to AD uniforms as possible.

As for police uniforms.....
My agency specifically allows them...from our regulations...
Armed Forces Ribbons
Uniform ribbons representing duly authorized decorations or awards for service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or any of its allies when this country was at war, may be worn as prescribed for the particular ribbon in the official regulations governing the awards. Ribbons shall be worn on the left side of the Class A uniform below the badge and above any Department pin.
But...they are normally only worn for special occasions such as funerals, award ceremonies, promotional interviews, Armed Forces Day, Marine Corps birthday, etc.  It's a bit too much to be worn for the everyday uniform wear.

QuoteNo, simply because there isn't anyone quitting because of the uniforms.

Not when a $17 golf shirt still fills the bill.

Where can you get a $17.00 CAP golf shirt at??? PM if OPSEC is an issue.

As to uniforms it has always been a circus. So many people want to be like big boy AF but they apparently don't want us, so why all of the fuss? Lets go strictly corporate, forget the ABU's as we will more than likely have to wear neon pink name tapes on those, forget the blues, and take CAP for what its worth, a volunteer organization.

Another observation to the NB agenda kept refering to AF owned uniform items, hate to tell the AF guys to get their heads out of the clouds but just because its blue dosent mean its theirs, a lot of agecies use blue woolly pullies, blue rank slides and blue jackets.

But these are just my opinions.

Quote from: Gunner C on February 02, 2009, 03:19:29 AM

Quote from: caphistorian on February 02, 2009, 03:01:11 AM

Quote from: Gunner C on February 02, 2009, 01:59:53 AM

Quote from: caphistorian on February 01, 2009, 10:34:39 AM
My take on the NB uniform proposals.

I do not feel that we whould wear any RM ribbons or badges on the CSU uniform period!

[changed] I thought better of it.  Sorry if I offended anyone, especially caphistorian.

I have been working all day and have not seen any posts to me. I am clueless!

It wasn't gentlemanly.  My apologies.

I dont have any problem with people wearing what they have earned. I have always stated that in my past posts. The reason I state this is because we as a group are allready pushing the envelope with the medal grade on the CSU uniform. This is against Title 10 of the US code. I dont think that the Air Force likes this as it is and putting RM stuff on there would only complicate it. I have nothing against anyone wearing what they have rightfully earned.

Better go arrest all the police and fire departments using metal rank insignia on their uniforms.  By the way, the same codes prevent people from the unauthorized wearing of CAP uniforms so I guess we need to go after the federal forces for wearing OUR insignia.

Which section of Title 10 are you refering to? Ch 909 which pertains to CAP has nothing other than the usual hoopla about what we do and suport to CAP. This comes from Title 10 Sub D Pt 3 Ch 909. 
Now Title 10 Sub A Pt 2 Ch 45 "Uniform" Sec 733 "Distinctive Insignia Required" reads
"(a) A person for whom one of the following uniforms is prescribed may wear it, if it includes distinctive insignia prescribed by the Secretary of the military department concerned to distinguish it from the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be:
(1) The uniform prescribed by the university, college, or school for an instructor or member of the organized cadet corps of—
(A) a State university or college, or a public high school, having a regular course of military instruction; or
(B) an educational institution having a regular course of military instruction, and having a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps as instructor in military science and tactics.
(2) The uniform prescribed by a military society composed of persons discharged honorably or under honorable conditions from the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps to be worn by a member of that society when authorized by regulations prescribed by the President.
(b) A uniform prescribed under subsection (a) may not include insignia of grade the same as, or similar to, those prescribed for officers of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.
(c) Under such regulations as the Secretary of the military department concerned may prescribe, any person who is permitted to attend a course of instruction prescribed for members of a reserve officers' training corps, and who is not a member of that corps, may, while attending that course of instruction, wear the uniform of that corps. "

Now I dont proclaim to be a scholar in military law but none of these apply to CAP so we are ok on "big boy" rank.  Ill continue to look elsewhere in T-10 USC  but also in doing a search for Civil Air Patrol I only came up with 16 hits and all came from Ch 909.

Quote from: RiverAux on February 03, 2009, 03:11:56 AM
Better go arrest all the police and fire departments using metal rank insignia on their uniforms.  By the way, the same codes prevent people from the unauthorized wearing of CAP uniforms so I guess we need to go after the federal forces for wearing OUR insignia.

Police and Fire are authorized under State Authority.

Quote from: flyguync on February 03, 2009, 03:18:27 AM
((b) A uniform prescribed under subsection (a) may not include insignia of grade the same as, or similar to, those prescribed for officers of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.

This is the one I have been referred to when I have asked the same questions. We are the AF Auxiliary and under the "jurisidction".

My mistake, its in Title 18.

QuoteTITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 33 > § 702
§ 702. Uniform of armed forces and Public Health Service

Whoever, in any place within the jurisdiction of the United States or in the Canal Zone, without authority, wears the uniform or a distinctive part thereof or anything similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of any of the armed forces of the United States, Public Health Service or any auxiliary of such, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

In which subsection a reads""(a) A person for whom one of the following uniforms is prescribed may wear it, if it includes distinctive insignia prescribed by the Secretary of the military department concerned to distinguish it from the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be:
(1) The uniform prescribed by the university, college, or school for an instructor or member of the organized cadet corps of—
(A) a State university or college, or a public high school, having a regular course of military instruction; or
(B) an educational institution having a regular course of military instruction, and having a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps as instructor in military science and tactics. "

Lets break Sub a down by lines:

1) The uniform prescribed by the university, college, or school for an instructor or member of the organized cadet corps of— We are not an educational facility


A) a State university or college, or a public high school, having a regular course of military instruction;  Again not applicable to CAP

or

(B) an educational institution having a regular course of military instruction, and having a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps as instructor in military science and tactics. Not CAP - Read ROTC & JROTC if you will.

I think in my opinion that the referrer needs to refer to the reference and read what they are referring to.

Not trying to be a prick but I'm just going by whats in black and white and using the grey stuff between my ears.

Quote from: caphistorian on February 03, 2009, 03:18:47 AM

Quote from: RiverAux on February 03, 2009, 03:11:56 AM
Better go arrest all the police and fire departments using metal rank insignia on their uniforms.  By the way, the same codes prevent people from the unauthorized wearing of CAP uniforms so I guess we need to go after the federal forces for wearing OUR insignia.

Police and Fire are authorized under State Authority.

And gee, we are authorized by the Air Force so what is the problem?  They made the determination that the CSU is different enough from a military uniform that CAP can do what it wants with it.  When earlier versions were too "military" they asked for changes and they were made. 

OK folks ...time to take a chill pill and big deep breath,  now back to the topic of opinion on the NB uniform proposal instead of argueing about authorizations for the uniform bling.

Go to neutral corners.....and play nice nice with the other kids in the sandbox

Now back to your regularly scheduled program. ;D

Where can I find a copy of the agenda?

And can please suggest a better way to search this site? I can never find stuff even using advanced search in google.

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/NB_2009_Feb_Agenda_BD2E1427664DC.pdf

Thanks!

Opinions are as follows:

Uniform Agenda Consent Items
28a. Eaker Miniature Medal - Sure, lets face it not everyone can be a Col.
28b. National Color Guard Competition Miniature Medal - No, We look like some South American dictator as it is with bling running aplenty
28c. Gray Epaulets for Females - Agree
Uniform Agenda Action Items
29a. Silver Braid CAP Corporate Uniform - Do away with so were not confused with Delta pilots, I think red as stated before would be a good alternative
29b. Air Force Lightweight Blue Jacket - No, the Grey slides say it all, cadets grey slides w/ metal rank, maybe
29c. CAP Astronaut Aeronautical Rating Designation and Badge (Wings) - Make up one set and present them to him at summer board, whats the big deal??
29d. Commander's Badge- In a word, no. Let current commanders wear the patch/badge only. If not it will give off the impression to many chiefs not enough indians. when you leave office then wear the ribbon. in review - Current commanders badge/patch, former CC's Ribbon. Either, Or, but not both.
29e. Flight Suit Grade Devices - Please O Merciful one lets go with cloth and NO PURPLE
29f. Sweaters for Use with the Corporate Uniform - Why not they will have the grey slides wont they??
29g. Wear of Military Decorations and Mini Medals on Corporate Uniforms -  And while were at it can we have foreign jump wings, and combat patches & tabs please?? All kidding aside I think this is a great idea, so us who no longer meet the lean and mean standards can still show off what we did when we were young dumb and stuid.
29h. Optional Shoulder Patches on BDU - as stated before we need to clean up the uniform not make it more of a Christmas tree. Can we have tabs and combat patches?? J/K guys
29i. Additional Corporate Uniform Outerwear Items - Beating that horse good tonight. Grey slides... Nuf said or Army gear works as well for all CSU wear...
29j. Change of Embroidery Insignia on AF-Style Uniforms -  Pretty Please. It looks a heck of a lot better on the BBDU than the tapes we have now, and change everything to dark blue while your at it.

So any NB board members on here lets settle the uniform issues and start doing something productive..

Quote from: flyguync on February 03, 2009, 04:29:59 AM
29a. Silver Braid CAP Corporate Uniform - Do away with so were not confused with Delta pilots, I think red as stated before would be a good alternative

Actually, most opinions were against red braid, not for it.

Quote from: flyguync on February 03, 2009, 04:29:59 AM29d. Commander’s Badge- In a word, no. Let current commanders wear the patch/badge only. If not it will give off the impression to many chiefs not enough indians. when you leave office then wear the ribbon. in review - Current commanders badge/patch, former CC's Ribbon. Either, Or, but not both.

The AF commanders badge is worn differently depending on present or former service. Present commanders wear it above the nametag. Former commanders wear it below the nametag. As long as people follow the rules, there wouldn't be any confusion.
AFI 36-2903 states that Command Insignia is mandatory. Since only four badges total are authorized (on service dress, other blue combos seem to be inconsistent), I would make the Commander Badge optional for former commanders.

I would hope that the Powers That Be would be smart enough to eliminate the Command Service ribbon if we wore badges in the same manner as the Air Force. Agreed on one method or the other, but a former commander has no need to wear the Command Badge and a Command Service ribbon. I never bought the ribbon, but if I was allowed to wear the badge as a former commander, I might buy it. If it gets approved, I'll make my decision then.

There seems to be some animosity towards the NCGC mini-medal proposal.  You guys realize that there is a medal for the drill team competition already right?  I say it's about time that they are catching up on things that should have been created a while ago...

I am going to open a pandoras box here! Why dont we just make minis for ALL of the ribbons and get all of this done in one session. I can hear the gears grinding in your head and the keyboards are warming up.

Quote from: caphistorian on February 03, 2009, 01:27:53 PM
I am going to open a pandoras box here! Why dont we just make minis for ALL of the ribbons and get all of this done in one session. I can hear the gears grinding in your head and the keyboards are warming up.

At least we would be consistent.  +1

Quote from: Hawk200 on February 03, 2009, 05:20:35 AM

Quote from: flyguync on February 03, 2009, 04:29:59 AM
29a. Silver Braid CAP Corporate Uniform - Do away with so were not confused with Delta pilots, I think red as stated before would be a good alternative

Actually, most opinions were against red braid, not for it.

Quote from: flyguync on February 03, 2009, 04:29:59 AM29d. Commander's Badge- In a word, no. Let current commanders wear the patch/badge only. If not it will give off the impression to many chiefs not enough indians. when you leave office then wear the ribbon. in review - Current commanders badge/patch, former CC's Ribbon. Either, Or, but not both.

The AF commanders badge is worn differently depending on present or former service. Present commanders wear it above the nametag. Former commanders wear it below the nametag. As long as people follow the rules, there wouldn't be any confusion.
AFI 36-2903 states that Command Insignia is mandatory. Since only four badges total are authorized (on service dress, other blue combos seem to be inconsistent), I would make the Commander Badge optional for former commanders.

I would hope that the Powers That Be would be smart enough to eliminate the Command Service ribbon if we wore badges in the same manner as the Air Force. Agreed on one method or the other, but a former commander has no need to wear the Command Badge and a Command Service ribbon. I never bought the ribbon, but if I was allowed to wear the badge as a former commander, I might buy it. If it gets approved, I'll make my decision then.

As for the braid on the corp uniform, we wouldn't be confused with a airline pilot or first officer, they wear four and three stripes, respectively.  FLIGHT ATTENDANTS wear one stripe, if they are wearing a coat. :o   The current proposal has merit, but PLEASE, no red on the uniform..

Commanders' badge; I'm a current commander, paid 5 bucks for the little geegaw,  and wouldn't mind wearing it below the pocket seam when I'm done; it's a nice looking badge.  I would not wear it as a sew-on on my BDU's, however-already have enough blue speckles on camo....

I think that the current batch of uniform proposals are for the most part a step in the right direction.  I do feel that the plastic-encased rank issue is Vanguard-driven.

Mini-medals; we have entirely too many of those, but it's at the wearer's discretion what not to wear-become a banana-republic general at your own peril.  Kill the membership and command ribbons.

Dark blue nametapes; anyone notice that the wings, rank and GT badges from Vanguard are now a tad bit darker blue than the nametapes?  Phase dark blue in with with the ABU-streamlines the process, and would be a happy medium for most of those who have been pressing for green nametapes, which is just not going to happen.

Speaking of the ABU, boots are going to become an issue:  ABU Boots go for $100+, and I haven't seen any Korean knockoffs for the 'budget-conscious' on the market yet.  I'd like to keep black boots with the flightsuit, in keeping with all the other antiquated accessories that go with it  >:D

QuoteI think that the current batch of uniform proposals are for the most part a step in the right direction.  I do feel that the plastic-encased rank issue is Vanguard-driven.

Actually they said it was a non-issue for them as they had found a supplier. 

Quote from: RiverAux on February 03, 2009, 02:56:00 PM

QuoteI think that the current batch of uniform proposals are for the most part a step in the right direction.  I do feel that the plastic-encased rank issue is Vanguard-driven.

Actually they said it was a non-issue for them as they had found a supplier. 

The issue we were discussing (on another thread) was the cost to the member: there are many of us of the opinion that $8 for rank on an "operational" uniform (which in itself is not cheap) is a bit much.

Maybe the best way to clean up the mini medal issue is to only authorize them when they are considered a "medal" or an "award," and not a "ribbon."

So here's what would be, under that criteria, a mini medal:

a. CAP Decorations:
(1) Silver Medal of Valor
(2) Bronze Medal of Valor
(3) Distinguished Service Medal
(4) Exceptional Service Award
(5) Meritorious Service Award
(6) Commander's Commendation Award
(7) Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving
(8.) Unit Citation Award
(9) National Commander's Unit Citation Award

b. Senior Program Awards:
(1) Gill Robb Wilson Award
(2) Paul E. Garber Award
(3) Grover Loening Aerospace Award
(4) Senior Member Certificate of Proficiency

c. Cadet Program Awards:
(1) General Carl A. Spaatz Award
(2) Ira C. Eaker Award
(3) Amelia Earhart Award
(4) General Billy Mitchell Award
(5) Frank Borman Falcon Award

d. Brigadier General Charles E. "Chuck"
Yeager Aerospace Achievement Award

e. A. Scott Crossfield Award

Below is what would go bye-bye. Because activity ribbons fall lower than cadet achievement ribbons -- which rightfully don't have mini medals -- medal proposals seem a little silly.

a. Service
(1) Command Service Ribbon
(2) Red Service Ribbon
(3) Wartime Service Ribbon

b. Activity
(1) Search "Find" Ribbon
(2) Air Search and Rescue Ribbon
(3) Counterdrug Ribbon
(4) Disaster Relief Ribbon
(5) Cadet Orientation Pilot Ribbon
(6) IACE Ribbon
(7) National Cadet Competition Ribbon (earned as cadet)
(8.) Encampment Ribbon
(9) Senior Recruiter Ribbon

Am I missing anything?

I sent my Wing Commander my comments on the uniform items last night.  Here are some of the highlights:

Cloth Rank for Flight Suit:
Thumbs down on purple.  Go for ultramarine blue instead as it is already used on the CAP version of the AF BDUs.  Plastic encased rank is hard to work with and doesn't hold up well in washing (those two facts alone drove me to the Corp flightsuit).  Cloth cheaper to purchase.

Silver Braid on CSU:
Dropping it on the coat is a good idea.  No real need to replace it with something else.  Hand band would look better being black.

Embroidery on AF Lightweight Jacket:
Serves no real purpose, would likely be expensive for an already expensive jacket (if purchased new), and doesn't really look professional.

Sweaters for CSU:
Recommended looking at civilian airline pilot sweaters.  These are not Army Uniform items, but still have a military look.  Available in Navy Blue and Black.  No cardigan version available that I've seen.

CAP Astronaut Badges:
Too few people would qualify for this to spend the time, money, and effort to create the badge.  Those authorized to wear one would already be authorized the military version, which is already authorized on the CAP Uniform (AF style anyway).

Change of Embroidery Insignia on AF-Style Uniforms:
I think the decision to switch from ultramarine to dark blue needs to wait until the configuration of the CAP version of the AF ABU is finalized (and approved) to preclude switching to dark blue then switching again when the CAP ABU is rolled out should dark blue not be used on that uniform.

Quote from: Phillip on February 03, 2009, 08:38:41 PM
Cloth Rank for Flight Suit: Thumbs down on purple.  Go for ultramarine blue instead as it is already used on the CAP version of the AF BDUs.  Plastic encased rank is hard to work with and doesn't hold up well in washing (those two facts alone drove me to the Corp flightsuit).  Cloth cheaper to purchase.

AMEN! It's hard to work with, can get caught on things (wouldn't that be a safety issue?) and apparently difficult to find. The Air Force nixed it a long time ago. I figured we were just depleting old stock until a decision was made to go to cloth.

For the same reason the plastic is so rigid, I think we should have the option of cloth flight suit nametags. Standardize a color, and bring 'em on!

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on February 03, 2009, 09:15:45 PM
I think we should have the option of cloth flight suit nametags. Standardize a color, and bring 'em on!

If they work out to be cheaper than the leather, which I think the case would be anyway, then I'd support it.  But since it wasn't on the agenda, I didn't mention it to the Wing CC.  Also, I'd like the Grade and Branch removed as well, just name and badge(s).  Now that would save members money over the long haul.

Quote from: Phillip on February 03, 2009, 09:34:02 PM

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on February 03, 2009, 09:15:45 PM
I think we should have the option of cloth flight suit nametags. Standardize a color, and bring 'em on!

If they work out to be cheaper than the leather, which I think the case would be anyway, then I'd support it.  But since it wasn't on the agenda, I didn't mention it to the Wing CC.  Also, I'd like the Grade and Branch removed as well, just name and badge(s).  Now that would save members money over the long haul.

Agreed. Absolutely, totally agreed. Maybe the name tag should have a place for grade for CAP's enlisted people, who can't wear stripes on a flight suit. But otherwise, name and rating is all you need. The MAJCOM patch is level with the nametag on the other breast, so it's not like you need to have "CAP" on it, either.

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on February 03, 2009, 08:17:33 PM
Maybe the best way to clean up the mini medal issue is to only authorize them when they are considered a "medal" or an "award," and not a "ribbon."

...

Am I missing anything?

Excellent idea!  (You left off the Membership Ribbon, but nobody's perfect!)

I like it.  It would cut my mini-medal rack from 14 to 9 ... thus preventing anyone from mistaking me for MacArthur or something like that.  And the ones that have the mini-medal phased out would still get ribbons ... so it's win-win for the bling brigade as well.

That said, if such a listing were to be implemented, I would love to see full-size versions of those medals made available as well to those who wished to purchase them for shadow-box display.  (It wouldn't hurt things to have full-size Exceptional & Meritorious Service, Commander's Commendation, Lifesaving, Wilson, and Garber for presentations as well!)  The full-size gongs might be somewhat pricey to the member, since there wouldn't be such a big production run of them, but those who wanted to have and display them would indeed pay for them.

Just a thought.

Jack

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on February 03, 2009, 09:36:59 PM

Quote from: Phillip on February 03, 2009, 09:34:02 PM

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on February 03, 2009, 09:15:45 PM
I think we should have the option of cloth flight suit nametags. Standardize a color, and bring 'em on!

If they work out to be cheaper than the leather, which I think the case would be anyway, then I'd support it.  But since it wasn't on the agenda, I didn't mention it to the Wing CC.  Also, I'd like the Grade and Branch removed as well, just name and badge(s).  Now that would save members money over the long haul.

Agreed. Absolutely, totally agreed. Maybe the name tag should have a place for grade for CAP's enlisted people, who can't wear stripes on a flight suit. But otherwise, name and rating is all you need. The MAJCOM patch is level with the nametag on the other breast, so it's not like you need to have "CAP" on it, either.

Let me just mention that...while AD USAF guys wear cloth name patch with just their names and wings on them (plus squadron mascot, multi-colors and sometiems cool slogans) everyone is supposed to have a standard leather one with name, rank and USAF on it.

So....so long as we stick with the leather name patch we should keep rank and CAP on it....just to keep in line with the "standard" USAF rules.

Now...given that...if we allowed cloth name patches...how would they be controlled?  Would we let wings decide on color and what needs to be on them?  Would we make them simpley silver on black?   I thought the general consensus was to keep the uniform...uniform.

I really hope they decide to ditch the ultramarine blue in favor of dark blue or navy blue.  The BBDU looks "Salty" like the nametapes are faded even when they are brand-new.  Dark blue would work with sew-on rank on the flight suit, and with the new ABU as well.

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on February 03, 2009, 08:17:33 PM
Maybe the best way to clean up the mini medal issue is to only authorize them when they are considered a "medal" or an "award," and not a "ribbon."

That would put it inline with USAF; Decorations have associated medals, service awards (longevity, etc) do not. (disclaimer - based on the memory of an old retired fart, circa 1994)

So...where do we draw the line?

Are the milestones medals or not?
SAR?
Yeager?
SM PD awards?

The problem we go right now is some ribbons that are high up (like the Eaker) do not have medals to go with them...but lower ribbons like the red service do.

Cutting mini-medals may make a little sense...but you will not get a lot of support for taking away something that a lot of members currently have.

a. CAP Decorations:
(1) Silver Medal of Valor
(2) Bronze Medal of Valor
(3) Distinguished Service Medal
(4) Exceptional Service Award
(5) Meritorious Service Award
(6) Commander's Commendation Award
(7) Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving
(8.) Unit Citation Award
(9) National Commander's Unit Citation Award

Where else is there in the uniformed world a (mini) medal for unit citations?  Those two should not have mini medals.

b. Senior Program Awards:
(1) Gill Robb Wilson Award
(2) Paul E. Garber Award
(3) Grover Loening Aerospace Award
(4) Senior Member Certificate of Proficiency

c. Cadet Program Awards:
(1) General Carl A. Spaatz Award
(2) Ira C. Eaker Award
(3) Amelia Earhart Award
(4) General Billy Mitchell Award
(5) Frank Borman Falcon Award

There's no reason for mini medals for training awards.  Get rid of these.

d. Brigadier General Charles E. "Chuck"
Yeager Aerospace Achievement Award
e. A. Scott Crossfield Award

Ditto with these.  Get rid of them as minis.

a. Service
(1) Command Service Ribbon

No reason for a command service ribbon, especially if the command badge becomes permanent.

(2) Red Service Ribbon

The RSR is the closest thing we have to the Good Conduct Medal or the Longevity Award.  Keep it.

(3) Wartime Service Ribbon

Why in the world would we want to get rid of a mini for our few remaining WW2 veterans?  Keep it.

b. Activity
(1) Search "Find" Ribbon

This should be moved to the subheading of "Service."  It is central to what we do.  Keep it.

(2) Air Search and Rescue Ribbon

Ditto.

(3) Counterdrug Ribbon
(4) Disaster Relief Ribbon
(5) Cadet Orientation Pilot Ribbon

Not sure about these

(6) IACE Ribbon
(7) National Cadet Competition Ribbon (earned as cadet)
(8.) Encampment Ribbon
(9) Senior Recruiter Ribbon

Get rid of these

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on February 03, 2009, 08:17:33 PM
Maybe the best way to clean up the mini medal issue is to only authorize them when they are considered a "medal" or an "award," and not a "ribbon."

So here's what would be, under that criteria, a mini medal:

Edited for length and to run in the time allotted    ;D

I would lose the Unit Citations. They're not personal decorations, and anyone of that much worth in a unit should be getting other awards.

I would also lose the Senior PD awards. The only equivalents I can think of are the Professional Military Education awards, and they don't have medal equivalents. Do seniors really need a medal for it? You're getting rank in that progression, the medal only shows that you met the requirements. If some people really gotta have them, allow their wear under grandfather clause.

I don't think it's a bad idea to keep the cadet milestones. They're hard earned, and I think it's a good thing to maintain that for prior cadets.

The Yeager, I'd say lose it. It's just a test. If someone asked you what that medal was, and you answered: "I passed a written test", how do you think they'd look at that? (Besides, it's 85 cents for a ribbon, and almost $7 for the mini medal, that's a lot to pay for as the result of just taking a test).

Crossfield? Leave it a ribbon. I still don't care for the idea of someone ending up with three different types of awards for a specialty track, but it's here. Grandfather it if someone is so stuck on having that extra medal.

In the interest of everyone getting something, I'd say keep the Red Service, but start treating it like it would be a combination of an Air Force Longevity ribbon, and the AF Good Conduct medal. Do two years and keep your nose clean, and you'll get one.

We really need to start treating medals as medals. We cheapen the medals when we start making ribbons into medal type of insignia. It's a little hard to think of someone as someone who has gone above and beyond with a huge rack of medals when you know that anyone in CAP will all get the same ones. There was an old joke that all Air Force personnel should be issued all medals because they get them all anyway (yeah, I know it's not true, but does CAP want to be the kind of organization that proves the joke, or comes close to it?).

I've been out of it due to working too much and might have posted this already but...

What about the ABU?  Or at least green boots with BDUs being allowed (as USAF does)? 

The wear of these ribbons and minis is for the most part completly optional. With a few exceptions most are not required to wear them. They are only worn on sparse occasions. Instead of omitting them would just be easier to choose "not to wear" some of them. It is a choice we have. Wear the ones you want and have earned and leave the rest in the drawer. There are few occasions that would "require" us to have them all.

Just a little .02 worth.

GunnerC. The Senior COP ribbon was discontinued in the 1990's. The only COP ribbon authorized is the Cadet COP and there is a mini medal for that. The basic Cadet COP would be equal to todays Mitchell. The Cadet COP with three clasps for completion of achievements 7, 8, and 9 would be roughly equal to the Spaatz. Also you leave out the National Commander Citation. This was the highest training award in the Senior training program. The Gil Robb Wilson was one step below the National Commanders Citation. And I believe there is a mini-medal for the National Commanders Citiation.

Quote from: MikeD on February 04, 2009, 07:11:27 AM
I've been out of it due to working too much and might have posted this already but...

What about the ABU?  Or at least green boots with BDUs being allowed (as USAF does)? 

That's really kind of a none issue, considering that our current BDU's and black boots are completely aviable.......

Quote from: Hawk200 on February 04, 2009, 05:43:01 AM
In the interest of everyone getting something, I'd say keep the Red Service, but start treating it like it would be a combination of an Air Force Longevity ribbon, and the AF Good Conduct medal. Do two years and keep your nose clean, and you'll get one.

I have always thought that fusing the purpose of the Membership and Red Service ribbon was the best course of action.  Instead of a RED SERVICE ribbon, some longevity device on the membership ribbon would be called for. 

I, historically speaking, do realize the RED, BLUE, GREEN (etc) ribbons were once authorized and the Red Service ribbon is likely an hommage to those early CAP awards.

^
Maj Corrales,

I'm confused about your proposal.  You state "fusing the purpose of the membership and red service ribbons."  I can't seem to get my head around how an award to denote completion of level 1 and time in service correlate.  Could you expand the reasoning behind this?

Also, the membership ribbon is a senior award whereas the red service can be earned by cadets and seniors.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on February 04, 2009, 04:30:14 PM
^
Maj Carrales,

I'm confused about your proposal.  You state "fusing the purpose of the membership and red service ribbons."  I can't seem to get my head around how an award to denote completion of level 1 and time in service correlate.  Could you expand the reasoning behind this?

My proposal was once part of the larger thread on reducing the number of ribbons.  It was a compromise to a suggestion that the membership ribbon and the red service ribbons be both removed.

The idea is the basic membership, represented by the completeion of Level 1, would stand in place of the basic award.  Upon completetion of two years, a device would be placed on that ribbon (be it an hour glass...as per USAF...or the current prop and triangle), at 5 years it one would add the double prop and triangle, 10 the tripple, 15 the quadruple and the numerals at 20 plus.  How that was done coudl be debatable.

Thus, the ribbons number would be reduced, but longevity would still be recognized.  It was one of the few "compromise" suggestions made.

Quote from: swamprat86 on February 04, 2009, 04:35:07 PM
Also, the membership ribbon is a senior award whereas the red service can be earned by cadets and seniors.

The might I suggest that their Curry Ribbon serve this purpose until they are seniors, at which time their devices would transfer to the red service ribbon.  After all, they have to remove the Curry anyway (unless it is their highest cadet ribbon...i.e. Cadet Airman for Life)

Again, this matter related to an attempt to solve an issue in a long dormant thread that might even have been at Civil Air Portal.

I say keep the red service ribbon, but change it to a 'longevity' ribbon.
Up the initial requirement to 5 years service to indicate 'long service'. 

I don't particularly like the 'adding devices to unrelated ribbons' concept.

Quote from: Major Carrales on February 04, 2009, 04:23:17 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on February 04, 2009, 05:43:01 AM
In the interest of everyone getting something, I'd say keep the Red Service, but start treating it like it would be a combination of an Air Force Longevity ribbon, and the AF Good Conduct medal. Do two years and keep your nose clean, and you'll get one.

I have always thought that fusing the purpose of the Membership and Red Service ribbon was the best course of action.  Instead of a RED SERVICE ribbon, some longevity device on the membership ribbon would be called for. 

I, historically speaking, do realize the RED, BLUE, GREEN (etc) ribbons were once authorized and the Red Service ribbon is likely an hommage to those early CAP awards.

The Green Service started out with award for a minimum number of hours of service. The Red Service replaced it once earned for addtional hours. The Blue Service then replaced the Red. The three could not be worn at the same time. The original Blue Service was for an approximate period of two years. It has always puzzled me that the Red Service was the designation chosen, when the old Blue Service had essentially the same criteria as the current Red.

In a way, the Red Service was a continuation, but in a way it wasn't. Maybe create something new with aspects of all three of the original "Service" ribbons as a "Good Conduct Medal" type of award as a homage to the original three. I think it would be fitting.

All my old CAP uniform and decs manuals are at home, and I doubt that there is anything on the web that rivals the specific criteria that the actual old pubs have in them. If someone else has the old Civil Air Patrol Officer manual (Dated 1944 I think) and the old 1949 Officer manual, those criteria can be found in there.

As for adding attachments to a Membership ribobn to denote longevity, I think that's a no-go. It's not appropriate to affix a device that has a different meaning than the original ribbon.  If we start that, what else would get confused? It would be a case of "This ribbon means this, unless it has this, then it means such and such". Too confusing. Membership is a PD ribbon, Red Service is a longevity. The concepts are different.

Quote from: Hawk200 on February 04, 2009, 05:08:13 PM
As for adding attachments to a Membership ribobn to denote longevity, I think that's a no-go. It's not appropriate to affix a device that has a different meaning than the original ribbon.  If we start that, what else would get confused? It would be a case of "This ribbon means this, unless it has this, then it means such and such". Too confusing. Membership is a PD ribbon, Red Service is a longevity. The concepts are different.

Remember, the proposed concept of divices on the membership ribbon was wrought out the of idea that ribbons needed to be reduced.  So long as that is not the case, the both ribbosn should remain, unchanged.

I will tell you this, with the way squadron membership attrition goes, two years can be a long time.  Of the members we have seen, both the most active and the least, two years is a significant milstone.  Lots of people have "life" conflicts that take them away from CAP.  2 years is about  right even for the cadets that "stick with it," for more than just the intial charm of CAP.

Not to mention 2 years is about the time that one complete a good level of their Spec Track and other training (this includes CD that requires a two year waiting period for most).

I say leave the ribbon at two years.  Most people that complete that go on in CAP to long service.

Quote from: lordmonar on February 03, 2009, 10:22:08 PM
Let me just mention that...while AD USAF guys wear cloth name patch with just their names and wings on them (plus squadron mascot, multi-colors and sometiems cool slogans) everyone is supposed to have a standard leather one with name, rank and USAF on it.

So....so long as we stick with the leather name patch we should keep rank and CAP on it....just to keep in line with the "standard" USAF rules.

Now...given that...if we allowed cloth name patches...how would they be controlled?  Would we let wings decide on color and what needs to be on them?  Would we make them simpley silver on black?   I thought the general consensus was to keep the uniform...uniform.

See, I was unaware that USAF aircrew still had the leather tags.  I was under the impression that they had been completely phased out.  Thanks for the additional info.

I would hope that should cloth tags make their way to CAP, that they are
1) an optional item for aircrews,
2) only incorporate the badges currently authorized for the leather tags, and
3) are standardized meaning no variations from wing to wing. 

I like sliver/black but would suspect that, if approved, the background color would likely match what ever color replaces ultramarine blue.

Quote from: Phillip on February 04, 2009, 05:59:19 PM
See, I was unaware that USAF aircrew still had the leather tags.  I was under the impression that they had been completely phased out.  Thanks for the additional info.

Active duty stopped using leather nametags in the early 90s ( a couple of years after switching to subdued rank from the plastic coated rank).  Current USAF guidance is cloth nametags - AFI 36-2903 section 3.2.5.2.

"Nametags. Cloth nametags for FDU/DFDU and Nomex™ style flight jackets will be 2X4 inches in size, and worn over the left breast pocket. As a minimum, Aeronautical badge or Space badge (if awarded) are mandatory and nametags will contain individual's name and grade (grade is only mandatory for enlisted personnel). Embroidered badges will be silver (white) in color. In the case of subdued nametags, embroidered badges will be black or dark blue in color. MAJCOM supplements to this instruction will standardize nametags (i.e., background/border colors, squadron logos, naming convention, etc). Nametags for Leather A-2 Flying Jacket will be 2 x 4 inches, brown or black leather, simulated leather. Emboss with silver wings/badges, first and last name, grade, and USAF."

And I thought we had uniformity issues...

USAF:
grade or no grade...
what color should I make it...
should I or shouldn't I put a badge on there...
which MAJCOM am I in to find further guidance...

CAP:
BBDU or BDU?
Ultramarine or Navy Blue?
Which badges should I put on my nametag?
Which wing am I in?
Can I wear this beret?

Quote from: Major Carrales on February 04, 2009, 05:41:00 PM
Remember, the proposed concept of divices on the membership ribbon was wrought out the of idea that ribbons needed to be reduced.  So long as that is not the case, the both ribbosn should remain, unchanged.

Yes, the idea in general is to reduce. My proposal is to have a single ribbon with devices to indicate progression through Pro Dev, instead of having four separate ribbons. Going from four to one is most certainly a reduction. Keeping the Wilson intact with all it's present criteria, and having another ribbon for the lower levels would mean going from five ribbons to two. Still a reduction.

Quote from: Major Carrales on February 04, 2009, 05:41:00 PMI will tell you this, with the way squadron membership attrition goes, two years can be a long time.  Of the members we have seen, both the most active and the least, two years is a significant milstone.  Lots of people have "life" conflicts that take them away from CAP.  2 years is about  right even for the cadets that "stick with it," for more than just the intial charm of CAP.

Not to mention 2 years is about the time that one complete a good level of their Spec Track and other training (this includes CD that requires a two year waiting period for most).

Agreed on all counts, wholeheartedly. Which means that the Red Service concept is a significant award. Before we drifted, the idea was to maintain it as a medal, and treat it like a medal in the same manner as an Air Force good conduct. With current criteria intact, it is suitable.

Adding a stipulation that you have to keep your nose clean would just add a little more motivation for people to do the right thing. What I would suggest as disqualifiers would be issues that wouldn't be considered "good" conduct, and would fall short of outright termination. It would be adding some criteria to the basic award, not completely changing the original concept behind it.

Quote from: Major Carrales on February 04, 2009, 05:41:00 PMI say leave the ribbon at two years.  Most people that complete that go on in CAP to long service.

Agreed, completely. I would support that without any reservation.

As far as reduction goes, the above ideas reduce six ribbons to three. It's a start. But all those mini-medals for every single ribbon really is too much. It would be a little easier if the Mess Dress uniform allowed the same option as Service Dress: "Medals: Wear all or some". But at present, that's not an option.

Quote from: Phillip on February 04, 2009, 05:59:19 PM
I would hope that should cloth tags make their way to CAP, that they are
1) an optional item for aircrews,
2) only incorporate the badges currently authorized for the leather tags, and

Agreed.

Quote from: Phillip on February 04, 2009, 05:59:19 PM
3) are standardized meaning no variations from wing to wing. 

This is where I disagree. If you're not going to have any variation, then there is really no point in having cloth. The purpose of cloth nametags is to have the variation, in the first place.

Now, addressing the variations themselves, that's where we need some hard rules. In the interest of wing Esprit de Corps, I'd say allow each wing to have a standard nametag design. Use the now phased out wing patches as a basis for each wing nametag. Require a supplement to 39-1 that addresses only the nametag criteria be filed at National. If National doesn't have such a supp from the wing on file, then that wing doesn't get to wear a cloth nametag until they send one in.

Maybe some allowances for special teams would be appropriate, but not just for special activities. There would be little reason to create a nametag for somthing like an encampment or an airshow.

Since we're on the subject, was there anything in the new NB agenda on cloth nametags? I read through it, but don't recall anything on them.