Chaplain Problem

[Major Lord]

Hmmmm. I am  not sure too many CAP chaplains could don their MOPP gear and run for their lives. Maybe there is more to it then just looking spiffy in uniform. Is it possible that a Chaplain who does not meet basic skills capabilities might end up being more of a liability then an asset? I can't think of too many CAP chaplains who could low crawl either....

Major Lord

[vmstan]

Being outside the uniform guidelines puts most people at an unhealthy or overweight category. I can fully understand the USAF wanting to have its members, including chaplains, to look healthy when serving with a unit. Only remedy to correct this situation for the member involved would be to drop some pounds to get within regulations.

Is it politically correct? No. No one wants to have their feelings hurt or to be called fat.
But, is it fair? Yes. Is it the regulation? Yes.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^Which is harder (not impossible, just harder) to do if you're getting older (I'm 44 tomorrow), on medication (ditto) and/or have something like a thyroid condition.

I look at pictures of myself at age 22, half a lifetime ago, and I was a barely-120 pound gnome.

But what Marshalus says is true about being outside guidelines being a potential indicator of poor health: obesity, heart disease, diabetes, etc.

Plus, we Americans are very good at socking away too many Big Macs and not very good at getting our kiesters out from behind the computer keyboard (I plead no contest) and walking.

[Eclipse]

I think we need to separate "fair" and "healthy" from "regulations".

The plan is the plan, and we have to work it, beyond that, its somewhat presumptuous and frankly NOYB what someone who
is volunteering to serve you for free weighs, as long as they are capable of the mission and not a danger to themselves or others.

If the USAF doesn't want fat or fuzzies saying grace, its their call.

Weight may be a factor in heart disease, but Jim Fixx died of a heart attack, so its not the only factor.

[Spike]

Being outside the uniform guidelines puts most people at an unhealthy or overweight category. I can fully understand the USAF wanting to have its members, including chaplains, to look healthy when serving with a unit. Only remedy to correct this situation for the member involved would be to drop some pounds to get within regulations.

Is it politically correct? No. No one wants to have their feelings hurt or to be called fat.
But, is it fair? Yes. Is it the regulation? Yes.

First, data changes daily on what is healthy and what is not.  Not all "overweight" people are unhealthy.  I know one CAP member who is not allowed to wear AF style, only because he is a "powerlifter" and has almost no body fat.

Second, I am not sure it is the Air Force that made this rule up.  It sounds like something CAP would do.

Third, I see FAT Airman walking around on Base everyday.  Somehow they are allowed to wear thier Air Force Uniforms. 

[Eclipse]

First, data changes daily on what is healthy and what is not.  Not all "overweight" people are unhealthy.  I know one CAP member who is not allowed to wear AF style, only because he is a "powerlifter" and has almost no body fat.

Third, I see FAT Airman walking around on Base everyday.  Somehow they are allowed to wear thier Air Force Uniforms.

That's something else we need to get on the table - realigning CAP's standards with USAF's standards.
I've seen plenty of heavy airman and Army people lately as well.  We need to have the option for body fat and / or physical task based
standards like they do.

I'm not going to pretend there aren't far too many in CAP who have trouble getting out of a chair, let alone taking any kind of physical,
but fair-is-fair, and if the USAF is going to allow for people who shop at the "husky" gentlemen's store to wear blues, we should have that option as well - as long as we can do the job.

[Fuzzy]

Perhaps whoever wrote the regulation made it under several assumptions. Just what I can think of off hand.

1. That USAF personal would relate to and understand CAP Chaplains better if they wore the same uniform and resembled their active duty counterparts.

2. The mission had a unique opportunity to represent CAP to Air Force personnel and a positive appearance was desired.

3. The mission was considered uncommon enough not to seriously detract from not USAF style wearing CAP chaplains.

4. USAF would probably require or did require USAF style uniforms, for similar reasons

Dunno, just my thoughts.

[Spike]

1. That USAF personal would relate to and understand CAP Chaplains better if they wore the same uniform and resembled their active duty counterparts.

Yeah, because it is easier to worship when the guy giving the sermon is in something that ALMOST looks like what you are wearing??  Most likely not a reason, if it were those Airman seeking spiritual guidance need to stop at the Base Psychiatrist after Church. 

[DogCollar]

Second, I am not sure it is the Air Force that made this rule up.  It sounds like something CAP would do.

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CCOP_2009001_5F578288215A2.pdf

This is the CAP Chaplain Corps guidelines for Chaplains performing roles for AD, Reserves and Guard.  Within, Ch. Col Woodard cites AF regulations as the reason for the H/W and grooming requirements.

[Spike]

Second, I am not sure it is the Air Force that made this rule up.  It sounds like something CAP would do.

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CCOP_2009001_5F578288215A2.pdf

This is the CAP Chaplain Corps guidelines for Chaplains performing roles for AD, Reserves and Guard.  Within, Ch. Col Woodard cites AF regulations as the reason for the H/W and grooming requirements.

All I see are educational requirements the Air Force mandates of CAP Chaplains.  I see nothing that says "The Air Force mandates CAP Chaplains be in Air Force Style".

[DogCollar]

Second, I am not sure it is the Air Force that made this rule up.  It sounds like something CAP would do.

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CCOP_2009001_5F578288215A2.pdf

This is the CAP Chaplain Corps guidelines for Chaplains performing roles for AD, Reserves and Guard.  Within, Ch. Col Woodard cites AF regulations as the reason for the H/W and grooming requirements.

All I see are educational requirements the Air Force mandates of CAP Chaplains.  I see nothing that says "The Air Force mandates CAP Chaplains be in Air Force Style".

3rd paragraph under Air Force Criteria.

[davidsinn]

Second, I am not sure it is the Air Force that made this rule up.  It sounds like something CAP would do.

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CCOP_2009001_5F578288215A2.pdf

This is the CAP Chaplain Corps guidelines for Chaplains performing roles for AD, Reserves and Guard.  Within, Ch. Col Woodard cites AF regulations as the reason for the H/W and grooming requirements.

All I see are educational requirements the Air Force mandates of CAP Chaplains.  I see nothing that says "The Air Force mandates CAP Chaplains be in Air Force Style".

3rd paragraph under Air Force Criteria.

No where in the AFI is that stated. In this case the AFI is the only one that truly matters.

[DogCollar]

Second, I am not sure it is the Air Force that made this rule up.  It sounds like something CAP would do.

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CCOP_2009001_5F578288215A2.pdf

This is the CAP Chaplain Corps guidelines for Chaplains performing roles for AD, Reserves and Guard.  Within, Ch. Col Woodard cites AF regulations as the reason for the H/W and grooming requirements.

All I see are educational requirements the Air Force mandates of CAP Chaplains.  I see nothing that says "The Air Force mandates CAP Chaplains be in Air Force Style".

3rd paragraph under Air Force Criteria.

No where in the AFI is that stated. In this case the AFI is the only one that truly matters.

It is under a section of the memorandum that is headed Mandated By Air Force Chaplain Corps.  I have no reason not to believe that this was a concern that was directly communicated by the Air Force Chaplain Corps to the CAP Chaplain Corps.

[davidsinn]

Second, I am not sure it is the Air Force that made this rule up.  It sounds like something CAP would do.

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CCOP_2009001_5F578288215A2.pdf

This is the CAP Chaplain Corps guidelines for Chaplains performing roles for AD, Reserves and Guard.  Within, Ch. Col Woodard cites AF regulations as the reason for the H/W and grooming requirements.

All I see are educational requirements the Air Force mandates of CAP Chaplains.  I see nothing that says "The Air Force mandates CAP Chaplains be in Air Force Style".

3rd paragraph under Air Force Criteria.

No where in the AFI is that stated. In this case the AFI is the only one that truly matters.

It is under a section of the memorandum that is headed Mandated By Air Force Chaplain Corps.  I have no reason not to believe that this was a concern that was directly communicated by the Air Force Chaplain Corps to the CAP Chaplain Corps.

Just because it's in our pub and says that doesn't make it so. The AF Chaplain Corp must follow their own AFI. If it's not there then it isn't so.

[Spike]

It is under a section of the memorandum that is headed Mandated By Air Force Chaplain Corps.  I have no reason not to believe that this was a concern that was directly communicated by the Air Force Chaplain Corps to the CAP Chaplain Corps.

The only thing that remotely looks as though it was mandated was the AF publications.  Seems to me that CAP Chaplain made the rule. 

Once again our written regulations fail the organization.  A simple, easy to understand regulation would work.  Heck, this is a "letter".  We are too dependant on operating on "Letters" in CAP today.  This stuff MUST stop. 

[RogueLeader]

^ write the recommendation and send it up.

[Gunner C]

Second, I am not sure it is the Air Force that made this rule up.  It sounds like something CAP would do.

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CCOP_2009001_5F578288215A2.pdf

This is the CAP Chaplain Corps guidelines for Chaplains performing roles for AD, Reserves and Guard.  Within, Ch. Col Woodard cites AF regulations as the reason for the H/W and grooming requirements.

All I see are educational requirements the Air Force mandates of CAP Chaplains.  I see nothing that says "The Air Force mandates CAP Chaplains be in Air Force Style".

3rd paragraph under Air Force Criteria.

If CAP chaplains need to be in AF uniforms to support AF needs, why don't aircrews need to be in AF uniforms to support AF needs, whether in VSAF, ES, or whatever.

Baloney meter is pegged here.

[Spike]

If CAP chaplains need to be in AF uniforms to support AF needs, why don't aircrews need to be in AF uniforms to support AF needs, whether in VSAF, ES, or whatever.

Baloney meter is pegged here.

Agreed!

[bosshawk]

Why do you guys continue to expect either CAP or AF regs to agree across regs and pubs?  Or with each other?  In 17 yrs in CAP, I have never seen this and don't expect to see it in the next 17.  In some cases, I see no agreement in separate paragraphs in the same reg.

[Gunner C]

Point!