CAP vs. Coast Guard Aux

[SpookyDude]

Hi Everyone,

Having been in CAP now for a few years, I'm wondering where we are going as an organization. It seems to me that CAP is still struggling with an identity crisis that the only other Civilian Auxiliary (at least that I know about) does not suffer from.

I'd like to propose a thought for discussion - What would be wrong with CAP foregoing it's "Civil Air Patrol" identity in favor of just being the Air Force Auxiliary and acting accordingly? I mean our Congressional Charter is really only a Public Law, and laws can be changed.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting that CAP forget about our roots or the significant history to date, but it seems to me that the biggest hinderance we face, and that makes us disjointed, is that of our dual personality.

What do you think would be the pros and cons of CAP going down this road?

[lordmonar]

Except here on CAPTALK....what identity crisis are you talking about?

[Eclipse]

Except here on CAPTALK....what identity crisis are you talking about?

+1

The average member goes to the average meeting in the same way they have for 30+ years.

[SAREXinNY]

I understand where the OP is coming from.  As someone that has been with CAP less than a year, the organization seems a bit disjointed.  I feel like we are going in 5 different directions at the same time.  I understand the background, and why we are organized the way we are as a 501(c)3, while at the same time we are "sometimes" an auxiliary of the USAF.  But it seems our goals and missions would be better met if we were completely under USAF control (at some level).  As it is, they have their thumb over everything we do.  A closer relationship would only benefit us.  I look at the relationship that the CG and CG Aux. has, and I see an entity that is better organized, with clear operational goals.

[RiverAux]

It would require much more than a name change to radically change the course of CAP.  Personally, I would favor a name change even if nothing else changed, but it isn't on my top 10 list of things that I'd like to see change in CAP. 

[a2capt]

My ID card does not say "sometimes" on it.

[Private Investigator]

Two things; #1 If it is not broken why fix it? #2 It is what it is.

[LGM30GMCC]

Everytime this type of conversation comes up I think the same thing...

We may be the Air Force Aux (All the time...not 'some of the time', it's just a matter of where/how the money is coming to us, much like the ANG) but I have no issue with our name being Civil Air Patrol. Much like there is the 'Air Force Reserve' or 'Air National Guard' but those same units often wear the livery of one of the other MAJCOMs.

Additionally, the CG Aux exists purely to support USCG operations. CAP does not exist solely to support USAF operations (directly at least). Additionally, we are much, MUCH smaller in proportion to our 'parent service.'

The CG Aux is approximately 40% the size of the entire USCG. For CAP to be of equivalence compared to the total USAF we would need to have 300,000 members, or be equivalent to the size of the entire active duty force. Until then, we are more akin to about the 3rd smallest MAJCOM but with less direct USAF control over us.

I'd be fine with a lot more direct USAF command/control/support but I don't see that happening unless we start to grow a bit more and really get VERY serious from the national to the squadron level about being consummate professionals ALL the time. Let's focus on that before we start trying to change our name.

[a2capt]

What he said. 

[Luis R. Ramos]

Didn't someone else start a thread with this same message, like, three months ago?

Some topics are like Frankenstein, they never die!

Flyer

[JoeTomasone]

Well, at least it's not necrothreading...


In my mind, CAP doesn't have an "identity crisis" insofar as direction and purpose.   

What has become more confused in the past 10 years relates to Emergency Services - with a large drop in UDF missions due to the non-monitoring of 121.5 by SARSAT, much of what occupied a lot of members' time has largely gone by the wayside, making some members wonder what our "purpose" and "direction" are. 

The way I see it, we still have a large ES mission - we are just not as often called upon, and it varies from Wing to Wing.    Here in FL, we have a large Disaster Recovery mission, what with the constant threat of tropical systems; in other areas, it's seasonal flooding or wildfires or whatever else.    We are still called for UDF and REDCAPs, and some Wings participate in missing person searches.   Many Wings perform State and Local Gov't missions as well.   These have not changed (significantly) as near as I can tell.

We also have our Cadet Program and Aerospace Education missions - both of which haven't changed focus or direction much, if at all.   Get any Cadet Programs Officer (or, better yet, a Wing Director of Cadet Programs) and ask if he or she perceives a lack of direction, focus, or purpose in that job...

[Rick-DEL]

I do not think we have an identity crisis, we just have a different set of missions than that of the USCGAux. As mentioned by others, in addition to ES we have to cover CP and AE, they don't (unless you count boating safety as another mission). I believe another difference to is that the USCGAux is used to actually augment the USCG on missions. We in CAP cannot do that mostly because of the cadets. USCGAux membership is 17 and up, whereas we are 12 and up. We use kids, for all practical purposes, as our Ground Teams. And that alone cannot be used to augment the USAF.

I could be wrong as I am not fully familiar with the USCGAux and never been a part of them.

Just thinking out loud.

[BillB]

Joe Tomasone...The cadet program has changed drastically over the years. During WW II cadets were used for many things that are no longer allowed. Following the war, cadets could fly as pilots and observers on actual search missions. And, cadets could fill senior member staff positions such as Communications Officer. Many of the qualifications for cadets ended in 1964 with the change in the cadet program. Some programs have stayed the same since the 1940's such as IACE, but most others appeared and disappeared over time. Many changes were due toi USAF downsizing and other causes outside CAP control. But I think the main cause of change in the cadet program started when cadets were thought of as "children" that must be protected at all costs. 

[a2capt]

Along the same premise, comparing CAP to .. the Boy Scouts, Seabees, Young Marines..

Each of them are well intentioned, fine programs. But none of them are the same. Not even to each other, though they are similar, CAP is perhaps "all of these", including the USCGA , rolled into one.

Each has units, troops, detachments, that 'suck' by definition of at least some of the participants, likewise, some that excel, and most that just accomplish the mission.

You can't please everyone. Some won't like it, others won't understand it, it being whatever program they've joined.

[Eclipse]

During WW II cadets were used for many things that are no longer allowed. Following the war, cadets could fly as pilots and observers on actual search missions.

As they do today.

But I think the main cause of change in the cadet program started when cadets were thought of as "children" that must be protected at all costs.

With respect for our great and capable cadets, under 18 that's pretty much the proper stance.

[Eclipse]

We in CAP cannot do that mostly because of the cadets.

Our having cadets is zero factor in augmenting the USAF. In cases where cadets are not appropriate, they just tell us that and we move on.

[Critical AOA]

Joe Tomasone...The cadet program has changed drastically over the years. During WW II cadets were used for many things that are no longer allowed. Following the war, cadets could fly as pilots and observers on actual search missions. And, cadets could fill senior member staff positions such as Communications Officer. Many of the qualifications for cadets ended in 1964 with the change in the cadet program. Some programs have stayed the same since the 1940's such as IACE, but most others appeared and disappeared over time. Many changes were due toi USAF downsizing and other causes outside CAP control. But I think the main cause of change in the cadet program started when cadets were thought of as "children" that must be protected at all costs.

That was probably not an issue in CAP's early days when a cadet had to be 15 - 17 years old and either a junior or senior in HS.  Now they can join at 12 and stay in until 21.  At 12 they are just children.  At 15 they are not an adult yet but in most cases are far more mature than 12.  15 is a more appropriate age to become involved in a program such as CAP and 18 is the right age to join the adults. 

[Shuman 14]

Along the same premise, comparing CAP to .. the Boy Scouts, Seabees, Young Marines..

Each of them are well intentioned, fine programs. But none of them are the same. Not even to each other, though they are similar, CAP is perhaps "all of these", including the USCGA , rolled into one.

Each has units, troops, detachments, that 'suck' by definition of at least some of the participants, likewise, some that excel, and most that just accomplish the mission.

You can't please everyone. Some won't like it, others won't understand it, it being whatever program they've joined.

Just an FYI, USCGA stands for US Coast Guard Academy... if you mean the Auxiliary the proper abbreviation is USCGAux.

[ARandomCadet]

Along the same premise, comparing CAP to .. the Boy Scouts, Seabees, Young Marines..

Each of them are well intentioned, fine programs. But none of them are the same. Not even to each other, though they are similar, CAP is perhaps "all of these", including the USCGA , rolled into one.

Each has units, troops, detachments, that 'suck' by definition of at least some of the participants, likewise, some that excel, and most that just accomplish the mission.

You can't please everyone. Some won't like it, others won't understand it, it being whatever program they've joined.

Just an FYI, USCGA stands for US Coast Guard Academy... if you mean the Auxiliary the proper abbreviation is USCGAux.

Correct, just like if we were abbreviating United States Air Force Auxillary, we would put USAF Aux. not USAFA. USAFA stands for United States Air Force Academy.

[MIKE]

7. A common error is the acronym USCGA when referring to the Auxiliary. USCGA is the acronym
for the Coast Guard Academy. USCGAUX is the correct acronym.

This quote has been brought to you by a real live Auxiliarist/Flotilla Commander.  We now return you to the thread already in progress.

[Private Investigator]

^ Thank you Skipper   :clap:

If you have an interest in aviation, CAP has something for you. If your interest is boating then the CG Aux has something for you.

As a past time, hobby or whatever you should have fun.   

[Shuman 14]

Yes to have fun AND serve our Nation and our communities at the same time. 

[bflynn]

I've been to a CGAux meeting.  My impression of the major difference is that the Coast Guard appears to go out of the way to show it's appreciation for the CG auxiliary.  Sometimes in CAP, I get the impression that the Air Force considers us an inconvenience.

It is little things; access to base stores, removal of organization support for budget reasons, etc.  When taken together, they can give the impression that the Air Force doesn't really need us.  Maybe there was a time when that was different, but newer members didn't experience those times.

There is a tight alignment between the mission of the Coast Guard and the CGAux.  There is not a tight alignment between CAP and the mission of the Air Force.  The inclusion of cadets into CAP adds a dimension that affects what we can do as well.

[JayT]

I've been to a CGAux meeting.  My impression of the major difference is that the Coast Guard appears to go out of the way to show it's appreciation for the CG auxiliary.  Sometimes in CAP, I get the impression that the Air Force considers us an inconvenience.

It is little things; access to base stores, removal of organization support for budget reasons, etc.  When taken together, they can give the impression that the Air Force doesn't really need us.  Maybe there was a time when that was different, but newer members didn't experience those times.

There is a tight alignment between the mission of the Coast Guard and the CGAux.  There is not a tight alignment between CAP and the mission of the Air Force.  The inclusion of cadets into CAP adds a dimension that affects what we can do as well.

It's not the Air Forces job to 'go out of it's way to show it's appreciation.' There is a very tight alignment between CAP and the Air Force, it just may not be obvious at the local level. 

[Eclipse]

It's perfectly understandable that a personal perception becomes one's reality, but when making
sweeping statements about an organization's place in the universe, it's good to step further back
then your field of view.

The CGAux has a relatively narrow mission, and one which puts in direct contact with the CG, to a certain
extent much like local CERT teams and auxiliary police departments are in direct contact with their parent services
by design.  That proximity is the only thing that's allowed by the mission, however just because you happen to
be sitting in a boat next to a full-time CG guy, doesn't mean that other organizations are "less" connected or
appreciated by their parent services, or because "dad isn't in the room" we have less to do. 

When you venture our from the unit-level you start to see more and more USAF contact.

[Private Investigator]

It's perfectly understandable that a personal perception becomes one's reality, but when making
sweeping statements about an organization's place in the universe, it's good to step further back
then your field of view.

When you venture our from the unit-level you start to see more and more USAF contact.

Eclipse makes a great point. Members at the Squadron or even Group level do not interact with the USAF like we do on Wing Staff. Encampments, exercises, drill competitions, etc, etc. So if your ideal of what CAP is all about, is based just on your involvement with Petticoat Junction Squadron you are missing out on lots of other activities. Of course YMMV 

[bflynn]

Members at the Squadron or even Group level do not interact with the USAF like we do on Wing Staff. Encampments, exercises, drill competitions, etc, etc. So if your ideal of what CAP is all about, is based just on your involvement with Petticoat Junction Squadron you are missing out on lots of other activities. Of course YMMV 

Isn't it true that the squadron is the heart of CAP?

Hey, I'm just saying what I see.  It's not a popular thought, but I really hope that we aren't limited to only expressing the popular and approved thoughts. 

In 4 years I can count the different instances of Air Force involvement at our squadron level on one hand. 

We do a poor job at this.  The Air Force does a poor job at this.  Probably because we're not aligned with the Air Force mission to win battles in the air, space and cyberspace.

[Eclipse]

Isn't it true that the squadron is the heart of CAP?

Not in the context you're trying to use it, nor, actually in the way most members understand it.

[lordmonar]

Everyone laments....."We want more involvement with the USAF".....but they very seldom have any concrete ideas of what that involvement is.

What do you want from the USAF.....and what do you want to do for the USAF?

We can go ahead an respond with pipedreams if you want.....let's go whole hog here.

[SAREXinNY]

I think bflynn makes some very valid points.  These are very similar observations I have had myself.  It's great that we have a positive working relationship with USAF on the wing level, but 90% of us don't see or experience that.  Like bflynn said, I often feel like CAP is an "inconvenience"...or at least that is how it is perceived at the squadron level.  CAP and USAF missions are different.  Understandably we will not work hand-in-hand with them on a regular basis, but I do feel like I'm treated like the redheaded step child most of the time.

[EMT-83]

^ Specifically, how do you see your squadron as an inconvenience to the Air Force, and what specifically happened where you were treated as the red-headed stepchild? Especially most of the time.

[SAREXinNY]

I'll send you a PM. Some of the issues I'd rather not discuss publicly.

[Eclipse]

I'll send you a PM. Some of the issues I'd rather not discuss publicly.

Kinda takes the "discussion" out of a discussion group, doesn't it?

You're entitled to feel anyway you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the USAF has
little specific role to play at the unit level.

In fact, one of the things which is a constant mantra of CAP=USAF is that they are not
involved in normal operations, nor are they in the chain of command.  That doesn't leave much
for them to do at a weekly meeting.

[JayT]

I think bflynn makes some very valid points.  These are very similar observations I have had myself.  It's great that we have a positive working relationship with USAF on the wing level, but 90% of us don't see or experience that.  Like bflynn said, I often feel like CAP is an "inconvenience"...or at least that is how it is perceived at the squadron level.  CAP and USAF missions are different.  Understandably we will not work hand-in-hand with them on a regular basis, but I do feel like I'm treated like the redheaded step child most of the time.

If it seems like an 'inconvenience' it's because the Air Force's job is to fight and win wars on a global perspective, not to cater to the whims of it's volunteer auxiliary. What exactly makes you feel like the 'red headed step child?' What specially has happened that makes you felt as if you 'inconvenienced' an active unit?

Recently, on a fairly serious call I was assigned to, I was confused that several of the RMP's from the county police department (the highest paid in the country I believe) were marked as part of the police auxiliary. I don't know about other area's, but the auxiliary cops in my area are normally not seen outside of crowd control at parades and what not, so it was a surprise to see them on the scene of a V-Ped accident. I asked one of the cops assigned to my area who I deal with on a regular basis if the auxiliary guys were allowed to patrol and responded to aided jobs, and he gave me a blank look and an 'I don't really know.' He has his job to do, and they have theirs.  Even in an agency that numbers only twenty five hundred sworn and badged MOS, he wasn't entirely certain about what his agencies auxiliary really did. Multiple that by the size of the Air Force, and it's not hard to see why local units don't see routine interaction with USAF units.

[CAPAPRN]

I think the difference here in understanding is operational affiliations vs. administration affiliations. Now I realize that any suggestions will immediately be shot down as unworkable, but I do think that with all the grumbling about sequestration leading to fewer civilians to do non military jobs there is room for CAP to do albeit boring but essential missions. Ask the AF what they need- volunteering for unwanted missions is a waste of time. If they say they don't want us - so be it, but I hope that it is a conversation that is being had - out of my earshot.

[lordmonar]

Again....I ask....what specific jobs do you thing CAP can do for the USAF?

[Shuman 14]

Again....I ask....what specific jobs do you thing CAP can do for the USAF?

OK, here's a few from my experience in the USCGAux:

Cooking and other mess duty (servers, KPs, etc.)

Radio watchstanding

manning an information desk/booth

general clerical support to bases and stations

supporting a recruiting office

Academy pre-screening of applicants

tour guides of bases and stations during open houses

Those are just a few I believe would have direct correlation from USCGAux to USCG for CAP to USAF.

[JayT]

Cooking and other mess duty (servers, KPs, etc.)

Aren't those jobs normally done by either civilian contractors, or family members of servicemen?

Radio watchstanding

Where?

manning an information desk/booth

Where and what for?

general clerical support to bases and stations

Doesn't the Air Force have an entire career field for this? And can CAP provide this service steadily, everyday?

Academy pre-screening of applicants

What kind of pre-screening?

tour guides of bases and stations during open houses

Again, where and what for?

[Private Investigator]

I agree with JayT.

The tasks mentioned by shuman14 in some states are covered by the State Military Reserve or the State Guard (Basically the Auxilliary of the National Guard in some states). CAP has three missions, CP, ES and AE. Cooking and mess duty is not what we sign up for and it does happen at some of our activities but I am not doing it at Nellis AFB. 

[RiverAux]

The CGAux has a relatively narrow mission,

Actually, no.  If anything, the CG Aux has  WAY more missions than CAP does.  The three
missions of CAP are fairly self contained and don't really have a lot of secondary missions within them.  However, the Aux's primary mission (recreational boating safety) has at least half a dozen major secondary missions contained within it.  And the Aux's other primary mission (support the CG) has probably 3 dozen missions or more contained within it. 

If anything, the Aux has so many missions that it may not be focusing adequately on its primary purposes. 

[Eclipse]

So now it's an itemization contest?

The CGAux has a single mission - augmentation and support of the parent service.

"The overarching mission of the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary is to contribute to the safety and security of our citizens, ports, waterways and coastal regions."

That allows for a pretty broad list of activities, but is pretty straightforward at the recruiting level.

[RiverAux]

No, just pointing out that the Aux has multiple missions, each of which includes multiple sub-missions that alone would be a significant program. 

And I think I have a little better idea of Auxiliary missions than you and they are much broader than the single sentence you gave.  I'm sure it was taken from an Auxiliary source, but it is nowhere near the whole story.

But, lets keep it simple and stick with the federal law establishing the Auxiliary:

The purpose of the Auxiliary is to assist the Coast Guard as authorized by the Commandant, in performing any Coast Guard function, power, duty, role, mission, or operation authorized by law.

In other words, our purpose is to do whathever the heck the Commandant wants us to do and he wants us doing dozens of different missions.  In that way, we're much like the Coast Guard itself -- a crazy hodgepodge of missions that don't always fit together very well.

Our current highest priority is to promote recreational boating safety and there are many different missions we do to fullfil that task.  Next, is to provide trained personnel to augment the Coast Guard in safety and security missions (again, several dozen different missions fall into that category).  The next mission is supporting the CG in other various operational, administrative, and logistical tasks.

In other words, the Auxiliary is an incredibly more complicated organization due to the multitude of roles we take on.

Whereas CAP can pretty be easily defined in two sentences, one for cadet programs and one for ES (which you can split out into a few different missions, but not really all that many).  You can throw AE in there if you want, but everyone knows that it isn't really seen as a primary mission of CAP these days no matter what the regs say. 

[Luis R. Ramos]

River-

I think you misinterpreted Eclipse's post.

He only stated narrow, he did not say few or lesser. From what you also posted I agree with him. Even if they are more numerous than CAP's missions, they are narrower than CAP. All are focused on USCG augmentation.

You describe several mission types on this, and several mission types on that. If there were more USCG, they would do this and that. There are not, thus, that is USCG augmentation.

Flyer

[Shuman 14]

1. Cooking and other mess duty (servers, KPs, etc.)

Aren't those jobs normally done by either civilian contractors, or family members of servicemen?

2. Radio watchstanding

Where?

3. manning an information desk/booth

Where and what for?

4. general clerical support to bases and stations

Doesn't the Air Force have an entire career field for this? And can CAP provide this service steadily, everyday?

5. Academy pre-screening of applicants

What kind of pre-screening?

6. tour guides of bases and stations during open houses

Again, where and what for?

JayT,

I will try to answer your questions the best that I can, based on these are things I've done, or seen done, in the USCGAux in direct support of the USCG.

1. Maybe in the USAF and at major bases in the USCG, but at most Stations and on board a Cutter, no. This is one of the newer missions of the USCGAux and even has a qualification called AuxChef. I knew an AuxChef that took two weeks of vacation to serve on board a cutter  cooking three meals a day.

2. Every USCG Station and Airstation has a radio watch, numerous Auxies qualify and man these posts on a day to day basis. I "assume" USAF bases have similar radio watches going on.

3. Every USCG Station I've ever been to has a desk inside the the front door so when the public walks in there is someone there to greet them and direct them or assist them. Auxies (myself included) can do this duty regularly, it frees up USCG personnel for more important missions at the station.  Have you never seen a information booth on an USAF base?

4. I'm sure it does, the USCG does, they're called Yeoman.  Auxies fill in as needed and as they are available. Not always everyday but sometimes to cover when someone goes on leave or there is a flood of paperwork. An extra clerk/typist one day a week can be a godsend to an overworked Yeoman.

5. Not a mission I've done, but the way I understanding it working is the Auxie has to complete the USCG's recruiter school and then they are like any other recruiter in that can assist at a recruiting office or assist the USCGA by meeting with prospective applicants to interview them, explain to them the Congressional appointment process and assist with the application paperwork and to field questions as needed. Better to send a Auxie who is local than an Officer from New London, cheaper too.

6.  I would have thought this was explanatory.  In the USCG, most stations are near or in a civilian harbor (ie boat dock). During the summer months their are fairs and holiday celebrations where the Station is open to the public for tours, Auxies come in to support these missions so the actual USCG can conduct their normal duties and the USCGAux can walk the civilians around and keep them out of trouble. Also, when cutters come into port, they sometimes allow tours of the vessel, normally local Auxies come out to assist with these. I've done this mission many times when USCG cutters come into Chicago and dock at Navy Pier. They always give tours and Auxies conduct them so the crew can enjoy shoreleave. I assume the USAF has open houses on their bases and airshows at civilian airfields? CAP members could augment base personnel in giving these tours.

Now I completely admit that I don't know how the CAP/USAF interactions normally work but the above missions seem to me to be something CAP could do for the USAF like the USCGAux does for the USCG.

[Shuman 14]

I agree with JayT.

The tasks mentioned by shuman14 in some states are covered by the State Military Reserve or the State Guard (Basically the Auxilliary of the National Guard in some states). CAP has three missions, CP, ES and AE. Cooking and mess duty is not what we sign up for and it does happen at some of our activities but I am not doing it at Nellis AFB.

Correct, but not every State has a SDF, and not every SDF has an Air Component Command; but I'm pretty sure EVERY State has CAP assets in it.

[bosshawk]

I won't attempt to address each of Maj Clune's items, but I will comment on one: number 5.  The AF Academy, West Point and the Naval Academy have well-organized forces of volunteers(usually either reserve officers or retired officers) whose sole function in their volunteer roles is to address issues with applying for and/or being accepted at a service academy.  I happen to be one of those for West Point and have been performing in that role off and on since 1976.  I only have a vague knowledge of how the Coast Guard Academy handles their admissions process, so I can't address that.  I have found that the recruiters are very little help in doing any pre-screening and Active Duty folks are generally too busy to even be interested.

Flame away, as is the CAPtalk method.

[Shuman 14]

I have found that the recruiters are very little help in doing any pre-screening and Active Duty folks are generally too busy to even be interested.

So Sir are you saying this is a niche mission that the CAP could take over and assist the USAF with?

[Spaceman3750]

I have found that the recruiters are very little help in doing any pre-screening and Active Duty folks are generally too busy to even be interested.

So Sir are you saying this is a niche mission that the CAP could take over and assist the USAF with?

At least in my area, we barely have enough people to cover our existing tasking without adding this on top.

[Eclipse]

At least in my area, we barely have enough people to cover our existing tasking without adding this on top.

An excellent point - and before anyone waves the "recruiting flag", that's not how it works - you don't extend your mission to try and grab new guys
when you're short handed on the real jobs, you kit-up on people to accomplish the actual mission and then and only then, do you consider
extending the mission.

Just as we didn't want or need members who were only joining to staff VSAF, we don't need people who just want to augment the USAF and not do
actual CAP work.  Last I checked, the USAF was pretty good at recruiting and hiring people without our help.

There also isn't, to my knowledge, any real analog in the USAF to "watch stations", certainly not anywhere near my AOR, where there aren't even USAF many bases anymore.
Also my state, as more then 1/2 the others, does not have an SDF.

[bosshawk]

No, Maj. Clune, I am not suggesting that CAP help in prescreening of candidates for the AF Academy.  In fact, I would think that the AFA would recall in horror at the very suggestion that they rely on CAP for such a job.

What I stated was that the AFA has a group of volunteers, mostly officers in either the Guard, Reserves or Active Duty who serve as liasion officers for the Academy and they do a certain amount of prescreening of candidates.  I do the same thing for West Point: most of what I do is provide info to candidates as to the requirements for admission, how to wade through the extremely large group of forms and take the medical and physical fitness exams.  I also do personal interviews on a limited number of candidates.  Over the years, I have had a modicum of success: I have had around 275 young people from my area go to West Point(that is in two states over more than 25 years).  God forbid that CAP ever got involved.

[jeders]

I will try to answer your questions the best that I can, based on these are things I've done, or seen done, in the USCGAux in direct support of the USCG.

There's your first mistake. This isn't the CG or CG Aux, we are CAP and we work for the Air Force. Just as the names imply, we work in totally different areas.

1. Maybe in the USAF and at major bases in the USCG, but at most Stations and on board a Cutter, no. This is one of the newer missions of the USCGAux and even has a qualification called AuxChef. I knew an AuxChef that took two weeks of vacation to serve on board a cutter  cooking three meals a day.

When's the last time you saw an Air Force cutter? At AF bases they have civilian contractors do all of the cooking. These contractors have long term contracts (hence the name contractor) and CAP isn't going to get in on that game, period.

2. Every USCG Station and Airstation has a radio watch, numerous Auxies qualify and man these posts on a day to day basis. I "assume" USAF bases have similar radio watches going on.

I have no experience with this, but I'm assuming that these radio watches are listening for boaters in distress. The only people actively listening to a radio for airmen in distress are going to be the guys in the control tower. Trust me, we do not want to send untrained volunteers to augment the control towers.

3. Every USCG Station I've ever been to has a desk inside the the front door so when the public walks in there is someone there to greet them and direct them or assist them. Auxies (myself included) can do this duty regularly, it frees up USCG personnel for more important missions at the station.  Have you never seen a information booth on an USAF base?

Nope. The AF doesn't really like the general public coming around secure areas. And when they do have limited functions for the public, it gets coordinated with AF Public Affairs, which is all a part of there job. There are, however, public museums usually right outside the gates but a part of the base. This is the one area where we may be able to help in this regard. However, since these are already staffed in large part by volunteers, I don't see much traction there.

4. I'm sure it does, the USCG does, they're called Yeoman.  Auxies fill in as needed and as they are available. Not always everyday but sometimes to cover when someone goes on leave or there is a flood of paperwork. An extra clerk/typist one day a week can be a godsend to an overworked Yeoman.

Again, the AF has an entire career field plus civilian contractors for just this. They already have people to cover when there is a flood of paperwork or someone gets sick or takes leave.

5. Not a mission I've done, but the way I understanding it working is the Auxie has to complete the USCG's recruiter school and then they are like any other recruiter in that can assist at a recruiting office or assist the USCGA by meeting with prospective applicants to interview them, explain to them the Congressional appointment process and assist with the application paperwork and to field questions as needed. Better to send a Auxie who is local than an Officer from New London, cheaper too.

As bosshawk already explained, this is not an area where we are wanted or needed.

6.  I would have thought this was explanatory.  In the USCG, most stations are near or in a civilian harbor (ie boat dock).

Most AF bases aren't.

During the summer months their are fairs and holiday celebrations where the Station is open to the public for tours, Auxies come in to support these missions so the actual USCG can conduct their normal duties and the USCGAux can walk the civilians around and keep them out of trouble. Also, when cutters come into port, they sometimes allow tours of the vessel, normally local Auxies come out to assist with these. I've done this mission many times when USCG cutters come into Chicago and dock at Navy Pier. They always give tours and Auxies conduct them so the crew can enjoy shoreleave. I assume the USAF has open houses on their bases and airshows at civilian airfields? CAP members could augment base personnel in giving these tours.

Yes, some bases have open houses in conjunction with air shows. Usually when there is a unit nearby, they are already helping out in one way or another. But people don't just go around the base willy-nilly looking at all the cool toys. They go to the airshow area and look at the toys that are brought out, and the people that bring them out do all the explaining, no need for us.

Now I completely admit that I don't know how the CAP/USAF interactions normally work but the above missions seem to me to be something CAP could do for the USAF like the USCGAux does for the USCG.

The AF, not just CAP-USAF, does things very differently than the CG, and we need to stop comparing apples and bowling balls.

[Luis R. Ramos]

You - OP - state in number 6 that we could provide help during shows and fairs.

Until you can get everyone in CAP involved to provide correct basic information about aircraft - or ask their AF crew - the results of this will be mixed at least. I was at a static display of aircraft at LaGuardia Airport in NYC. There were two cadets one at the entrance the other inside a KC-135. I asked one at the door "which acft is this?" He said "A KC-130." I quickly corrected that. There was a flight engineer besides him. This cadet never bothered to ask the expert to his side.

I asked the cadet inside the same question. He answered a "KC-10." An Air National Guardsman besides him, who overheard the answer,looks at me and smiles. Then walks away. I could read his mind: "This cadet is your guy. Fix that mistake!"

Both cadets had several years in the program. They were not inexperienced. So where did the miscommunication came? Both alleged another senior member told them that info!

Flyer

[Eclipse]

Cadet are awesome - I've had a couple at encampment arguing about air-power inventory and capabilities with fighter pilots.  It can be quite entertaining.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Oh, I know that some can argue - in an intelligent manner, even quoting facts and figures - with Air Force personnel successfully. I only wish it would happen all the time.

Because then we have some, like Mr Rainey here, that will argue and argue not accepting the facts...

Flyer

[bflynn]

Everyone laments....."We want more involvement with the USAF".....but they very seldom have any concrete ideas of what that involvement is.

What do you want from the USAF.....and what do you want to do for the USAF?

We can go ahead an respond with pipedreams if you want.....let's go whole hog here.

I don't think I heard an answer to this - did I miss it?

I have very few ideas, I'd be looking for what the Air Force would like us to do.  That's kind of my point, we don't integrate well with the Air Force. 

I can see us stressing education in a kind of strategic way.  The more people that know about flying and believe in flying, the better the situation for the Air Force.  Of everything, this is what we can do the most for the Air Force, although we're hadicapped by not allowing SMs to take primary flight training

We can...act as targets for Air Force exercises?

I don't think out training cadets is for the Air Force.  There's the AFRCC, but we've all seen a huge downturn in SAR activity since the cessation of monitoring for 121.5 ELTs, so it isn't a big part of what we do anyway.

Did I miss something?

[Eclipse]

That's kind of my point, we don't integrate well with the Air Force. 

Which is fine, since it isn't one of our mission mandates.

We can...act as targets for Air Force exercises?

We are doing this today.

There's the AFRCC, but we've all seen a huge downturn in SAR activity since the cessation of monitoring for 121.5 ELTs, so it isn't a big part of what we do anyway.

Maybe in your AOR - we had two simultaneous missions in one day yesterday.

My wing's ELT mission rate is about the same as it's always been - one or two missions a month, and our DR support is way up.

[Ned]

I have very few ideas, I'd be looking for what the Air Force would like us to do.

As it turns out, the BoG is meeting with NORTHCOM officials soon to ask this very question.

I'll let you know what is on their "wish list" and we can all talk about how we might meet it.



(And this being CAPTalk, we can then talk about the necessary uniform modifications.    )

[Storm Chaser]

As others have said, this is a matter of perspective. CAP and the USGC Aux have different missions and roles and that can also affect the perception of "closeness" between each and their parent service.

I, for one, feel very close to the Air Force. My unit is in an Air Force base and we use some of their facilities (e.g. gym, flight line, etc.). They provide us with a decent building, which have the class room and offices we need to conduct training and business. It also makes for a good mission base. In return, we provide support through aerial fire patrol over their firing range in a daily basis. We have a good relationship and mutual support. So, as it has been said before, this is a matter of perception.

Maybe not every local unit has day-to-day contact with the Air Force, but that doesn't make our relationship any less than what it is. We have a broader mission, which may explain why not everything we do is with an Air Force airman by or side. But regardless of that, we are the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary 24/7 and not just some of the time.

[Private Investigator]

I, for one, feel very close to the Air Force. My unit is in an Air Force base and we use some of their facilities (e.g. gym, flight line, etc.). They provide us with a decent building, which have the class room and offices we need to conduct training and business. It also makes for a good mission base. In return, we provide support through aerial fire patrol over their firing range in a daily basis. We have a good relationship and mutual support. So, as it has been said before, this is a matter of perception.

You are in a good situation so make the most of it. Some Squadron's only contact with the USAF is the town's recruiter and they meet in the basement of a church.   

[Storm Chaser]

You are in a good situation so make the most of it. Some Squadron's only contact with the USAF is the town's recruiter and they meet in the basement of a church.   

I know that to be true first hand. For many years, a former cadet squadron I used to belong to, both as a cadet and later a senior member, met at a high school and had one class room for our meetings. It wasn't a nice school as many are now a day. It didn't have air conditioning or any other facilities or equipment we could use for meetings or training. We spent most of the time outside in a basketball court, which we use as a parade ground and for things like PT. We didn't even had a track; we ran on the streets, around the school. Our Group HQ met in an ANG facility (not a base, but a radar station), in a rundown building. We didn't have many good facilities or resources either.

[Ricochet13]

^ Thank you Skipper   :clap:

If you have an interest in aviation, CAP has something for you. If your interest is boating then the CG Aux has something for you.

As a past time, hobby or whatever you should have fun.   

There are opportunities for aviation in the USCG Aux too.

[TarRiverRat]

When I was in the CG Aux, I had opportunities to fly on the helicopters as well as C-130s for search missions and we also had member owned aircraft as well.  We had to go through the dunker training before we could be assigned, just in case we went down at sea we had the chance of survival.

[danhawkeye]

longtime lurker here: I've been getting interested in the CG Aux, so this thread is pretty interesting.
Are there any Auxies here that have had a really positives experience with the CGAux?

I show up for every meeting and put on a smile, but as a non-pilot LT (with no kids in CAP), I've been getting increasingly bored with CAP. Not much interesting to do unless you really like working with kids. I feel bad saying that because the cadets are all great kids. I just feel like an overdressed scoutmaster, collecting ribbons and badges that no one outside the building cares about.

[Eclipse]

Not much interesting to do unless you really like working with kids.

That is hardly CAP as a whole - time to find a new unit or move to a different echelon.

[RiverAux]

There are several folks here that are in both, including me.  I like the CG Aux because it offers you a chance to do a lot of real work on your own schedule -- you don't have to wait for a disaster or a lost plane in order to use your skills.  On the other hand, the Aux isn't really an emergency response organization like CAP so you sit out a lot of stuff.  You basically find the same sort of people in both organization with CAP having slightly more young adults due to the influence of the cadet program. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

There are several folks here that are in both, including me.  I like the CG Aux because it offers you a chance to do a lot of real work on your own schedule -- you don't have to wait for a disaster or a lost plane in order to use your skills.  On the other hand, the Aux isn't really an emergency response organization like CAP so you sit out a lot of stuff.  You basically find the same sort of people in both organization with CAP having slightly more young adults due to the influence of the cadet program.

Heh.


At 23, I think there might be one or two other guys maybe within 7-10 years of age to me (both non-cadet in the past, so we rarely get to interact). Everyone else is pushing an easy 15-20 on me at the unit. Not surprisingly, some incoming newer folks tend to confuse me for a cadet, since I'm much closer in age to them.

[TarRiverRat]

I had a fairly pleasant experience as a whole with CG Aux, but as in all organizations you can find your self in a group that wants to play dress up and do very little.  I was in a group of older ladies and gentleman and they just wanted to be a boating club that could wear the Coast Guard uniform.  On patrol, they wanted to ride around their little area and not much else and have float parties.  Same as in some CAP squadrons that just want to be a flying club and nothing else.  In the end they all disappear when they find out that they cant just be a boating or flying club that they have to perform as the parent service needs them to.  Not all CAP or CG Aux units are this way.  Majority are hard working and are great assets to the parent service.

[BHartman007]

There are several folks here that are in both, including me.  I like the CG Aux because it offers you a chance to do a lot of real work on your own schedule -- you don't have to wait for a disaster or a lost plane in order to use your skills.  On the other hand, the Aux isn't really an emergency response organization like CAP so you sit out a lot of stuff.  You basically find the same sort of people in both organization with CAP having slightly more young adults due to the influence of the cadet program.

Heh.


At 23, I think there might be one or two other guys maybe within 7-10 years of age to me (both non-cadet in the past, so we rarely get to interact). Everyone else is pushing an easy 15-20 on me at the unit. Not surprisingly, some incoming newer folks tend to confuse me for a cadet, since I'm much closer in age to them.

I'm 31, and I'm aware of two other seniors who are younger (26 and 24 or 25) in our unit. Most of the others I would say have between 10 and 30 years on me.

[Eclipse]

I'm 31, and I'm aware of two other seniors who are younger (26 and 24 or 25) in our unit. Most of the others I would say have between 10 and 30 years on me.

The unit won't get "younger" if the next wave just scrams - recruit your friends and move forward.

[SunDog]

I might have some perspective, being ex-USAF, then a  civilian employee of the Coast Guard;

We used the CG Aux to cover real gaps, and in a lot more places than just boating safety - recruiting support, oil spills, even IT. CG  is spread THIN, with major mission creep. Sometimes the Aux was the only reason some AD guys could get a day off at all.

There is a CAP guy in MD Wing who is also CG Aux, and often mans tbe radio watch on weekends at the CG station near PAX River, AND he acts as the Duty Officer for CAP Bay Patrols. He has internet access at the station, and can watch the weather radar for us during the long patrols.

Using the Aux like this is real common for CG . On the other hand, CG Reserves is a mess, and USAF utilizes Reserves (and ANG) much better than CG. There are no CG Reserve aviators; but USAF Reserve and ANG fly more hours than AD, routinely win the competetions, and  generally have the more experienced aircrews.

So, yeah, USAF could get more value out of CAP, but the will and corporate culture aren't there.  I know one CAP wing DOES augment dining facility staff at one base, by the way, but that is unusual. 

CG gets a lot of mileage out of the Aux, but drops tbe ball on doing the same with Reserves. USAF utilizes CAP for not much, aside from ELT searches, but wears the Reserves OUT!

CG Reserves has a small Reserve force, as a percentage of the total CG force (AD+Aux+Reserves). USAF Reserve and ANG are much larger as a percent of the USAF total.

Could CAP augment the staff at AMC terminals? Base gym, base library? First level IT support? Public Affairs?Motor pool? No reason not, really, except it's not the way USAF operates.

[Spaceman3750]

Could CAP augment the staff at AMC terminals? Base gym, base library? First level IT support? Public Affairs?Motor pool? No reason not, really, except it's not the way USAF operates.

At least half of those things are handled by civilian contractors, at least in my limited experience.

This might sound bad to you, but you won't see me signing up to take a shift handing out towels or answering phones at the hell desk.

[Archer]

Not much interesting to do unless you really like working with kids.

That is hardly CAP as a whole - time to find a new unit or move to a different echelon.

All-SM ground teams come to mind.

[antdetroitwallyball]

As I type this, I am an an Auxiliarist currently sitting at a Coast Guard Station ON WATCH. Right now, I'm filling in for an active duty E-3 who would rather play basketball with the rest of the station's crew than sit on watch. At any moment, I may get a call from some ship sinking, and a rescue operation will commence, starting with the information I provide. Right now, our station's cook is an Auxiliarist who is filling in for the Active duty E-7 who is away at training. I'm also a 25 year old University Senior.

This is the type of integration the Coast Guard Aux offers.

I routinely monitor CAPTalk because I'm interested in eventually joing the Air Force Aux. I find the differences and simularities of the two organizations facinating. The two organizations may have different missions, but I sometimes get the impression that CAP gets less thanks.

Just thought I'd give my two cents.

[Private Investigator]

Thanks for sharing and welcome aboard the CT ..   :clap:

[Devil Doc]

I did research for 3 months on CAP and USCGAUX. I can tell you, round these parts, the CGAUX didn't really do much, esp when I called the local Flottillas and asked them questions, I was not impressed with there answers. I contacted the local CAP, which was closer also, they told me to show up, gave me the code to the gate, etc. I was looking for certain things, CAP offered it

[RiverAux]

CAP vs CG Aux:

Air Power -- Advantage CAP due to numerical superiority, however, having twice as many unarmed airplanes as the other guy doesn't give you a major leg up.

Naval Power -- Hands down this goes to CG Aux.  If all else fails they can retreat by sea and be totally out of reach of CAP.  And while CAP planes are prohibited from dropping stuff, I'm not aware of any prohibition on CG Aux launching stuff upwards.

Ground Forces -- CAP has both a numerical advantage in having twice as many total people, they also have better uniforms for ground conflict and at least a few thousand have some basic training in land navigation and survival.  And, they have training in how to bluff people not to get around them to sensitive areas.

Overall, I'd have to pick CAP in a fight.

[Archer]

CAP vs CG Aux:

Air Power -- Advantage CAP due to numerical superiority, however, having twice as many unarmed airplanes as the other guy doesn't give you a major leg up.

Naval Power -- Hands down this goes to CG Aux.  If all else fails they can retreat by sea and be totally out of reach of CAP.  And while CAP planes are prohibited from dropping stuff, I'm not aware of any prohibition on CG Aux launching stuff upwards.

Ground Forces -- CAP has both a numerical advantage in having twice as many total people, they also have better uniforms for ground conflict and at least a few thousand have some basic training in land navigation and survival.  And, they have training in how to bluff people not to get around them to sensitive areas.

Overall, I'd have to pick CAP in a fight.

A literal kind of guy. I like you, warfighter.

[antdetroitwallyball]

I did research for 3 months on CAP and USCGAUX. I can tell you, round these parts, the CGAUX didn't really do much, esp when I called the local Flottillas and asked them questions, I was not impressed with there answers. I contacted the local CAP, which was closer also, they told me to show up, gave me the code to the gate, etc. I was looking for certain things, CAP offered it

This is an interesting point you bring up. I agree with you that some flotillas (AUX equivalent to your CAP squadrons) are rather curmudgeon-y in the sense that you really have to put a lot of effort into getting started into the CGAUX. I too, find this aspect to be regretable. It took a lot of me doing my own homework and making phone calls on my own behalf. The crazy thing is, that once you are in the CGAUX, you can really just blaze your own path. I got my uniform, showed up at a station and said, "What can I do, and how do I get started?" The active duty CG has little idea about how the aux works, but they do know that they can put the auxies through the same training routines as all of thier active duty people. So they do. The big thing with the CG is that they don't teach their enlisted people ANYTHING at boot camp. They teach everything at the unit. So to the Coast Guard, training an auxiliarist is the SAME PROCESS as training an E-2/E-3. The integration is wonderfull. They give me a military email address and computer access so I can do the job. I even have my own berthing at the STA when I work there on weekends, and they cover the cost of my meals in the galley. I've even had opportunities to get underway with the Canadian coast guard on their ships.

Perhaps what the CGAUX would do well to do, would be to take a lesson from CAP in terms of recruitment and personnel management..

[SAREXinNY]

As a CAP member with less than 1 year under my belt so far, I find this thread very interesting.  I, too, did a lot of research between CG Aux and CAP prior to joining.  Really, the only thing that tipped the scales in CAP's favor was the ES mission.  I wanted a little excitement.  I think I made the right decision (based on my wants/needs), but I do wish I had a thread like this to read a year ago when I first joined.  It's hard to know what you're actually signing up for (even after doing all the research, and attending a squadron meeting or two).  They both definitely have their advantages and disadvantages (in my view anyway).

[Archer]

I did research for 3 months on CAP and USCGAUX. I can tell you, round these parts, the CGAUX didn't really do much, esp when I called the local Flottillas and asked them questions, I was not impressed with there answers. I contacted the local CAP, which was closer also, they told me to show up, gave me the code to the gate, etc. I was looking for certain things, CAP offered it

This is an interesting point you bring up. I agree with you that some flotillas (AUX equivalent to your CAP squadrons) are rather curmudgeon-y in the sense that you really have to put a lot of effort into getting started into the CGAUX. I too, find this aspect to be regretable. It took a lot of me doing my own homework and making phone calls on my own behalf. The crazy thing is, that once you are in the CGAUX, you can really just blaze your own path. I got my uniform, showed up at a station and said, "What can I do, and how do I get started?" The active duty CG has little idea about how the aux works, but they do know that they can put the auxies through the same training routines as all of thier active duty people. So they do. The big thing with the CG is that they don't teach their enlisted people ANYTHING at boot camp. They teach everything at the unit. So to the Coast Guard, training an auxiliarist is the SAME PROCESS as training an E-2/E-3. The integration is wonderfull. They give me a military email address and computer access so I can do the job. I even have my own berthing at the STA when I work there on weekends, and they cover the cost of my meals in the galley. I've even had opportunities to get underway with the Canadian coast guard on their ships.

Perhaps what the CGAUX would do well to do, would be to take a lesson from CAP in terms of recruitment and personnel management..

If you don't mind sharing, where do did put in your time with the Orange that allowed you to work with Canadian Coast Guard? I'd love an opportunity to do that.   

[antdetroitwallyball]

I did research for 3 months on CAP and USCGAUX. I can tell you, round these parts, the CGAUX didn't really do much, esp when I called the local Flottillas and asked them questions, I was not impressed with there answers. I contacted the local CAP, which was closer also, they told me to show up, gave me the code to the gate, etc. I was looking for certain things, CAP offered it

This is an interesting point you bring up. I agree with you that some flotillas (AUX equivalent to your CAP squadrons) are rather curmudgeon-y in the sense that you really have to put a lot of effort into getting started into the CGAUX. I too, find this aspect to be regretable. It took a lot of me doing my own homework and making phone calls on my own behalf. The crazy thing is, that once you are in the CGAUX, you can really just blaze your own path. I got my uniform, showed up at a station and said, "What can I do, and how do I get started?" The active duty CG has little idea about how the aux works, but they do know that they can put the auxies through the same training routines as all of thier active duty people. So they do. The big thing with the CG is that they don't teach their enlisted people ANYTHING at boot camp. They teach everything at the unit. So to the Coast Guard, training an auxiliarist is the SAME PROCESS as training an E-2/E-3. The integration is wonderfull. They give me a military email address and computer access so I can do the job. I even have my own berthing at the STA when I work there on weekends, and they cover the cost of my meals in the galley. I've even had opportunities to get underway with the Canadian coast guard on their ships.

Perhaps what the CGAUX would do well to do, would be to take a lesson from CAP in terms of recruitment and personnel management..

If you don't mind sharing, where do did put in your time with the Orange that allowed you to work with Canadian Coast Guard? I'd love an opportunity to do that.

The station I work shares a border with Canada. As a result, we often end up doing a lot of joint missions together. I was ask to work as an assist to an active duty E-7 for a week aboard one of the Canadian's new Hero-Class response cutters for a week. The two of us (myself and the E-7) were underway with the Canuks for a international relations mission....

Because I work very closely with the active duty, you end up meeting people who know people, and who have connections. It was a pretty cool experience...