Cadet with Alcohol Misdemeanor

[JeffDG]

Hmmm...seems that NHQ thinks that the prohibition of alcohol applies to cadet activities only too:

From the "changes" section:

In 2-4c, the longstanding prohibitions on
the possession of alcohol at cadet activities are restored.

Really what reg because what I see in 52-16 says otherwise

Here ya go:
http://capmembers.com/media/cms/R052_016_2011_02_BFAB729553AB1.pdf
Page 1:  Summary of changes.

[abdsp51]

1) I don't inquire about religon.

2) Agree to a point.  Once it's known it becomes CAPs business. 

One of the key aspects of this program is leadership and responsibility.  Make an adult decision deal with adult consequences.

So if a cadet talks about taking communion over the previous weekend, you whip out a 2B then, because, "ZERO TOLLERANCE", even though the regulations specifically mentions "at cadet activities".

The reg says cadets will not posses alcohol period.   It says nothing about at activities only.  And that is straight from 52-16 published 19 Jun 14 the same para you have just cited.  And there is no ICL published.

[JeffDG]

1) I don't inquire about religon.

2) Agree to a point.  Once it's known it becomes CAPs business. 

One of the key aspects of this program is leadership and responsibility.  Make an adult decision deal with adult consequences.

So if a cadet talks about taking communion over the previous weekend, you whip out a 2B then, because, "ZERO TOLLERANCE", even though the regulations specifically mentions "at cadet activities".

The reg says cadets will not posses alcohol period.   It says nothing about at activities only.  And that is straight from 52-16 published 19 Jun 14 the same para you have just cited.  And there is no ICL published.

You're working on an old version.  Change 1 to that version was published on 6-October-2014 (see link)

Did you check the link: 
"19 JUNE 2014
INCLUDES CHANGE 1, 6 OCTOBER 2014"

The "Summary of Changes" is right there on page 1.  Try reading it.  I wholly contradicts your position.

[abdsp51]

Hmmm...seems that NHQ thinks that the prohibition of alcohol applies to cadet activities only too:

From the "changes" section:

In 2-4c, the longstanding prohibitions on
the possession of alcohol at cadet activities are restored.

Really what reg because what I see in 52-16 says otherwise

Here ya go:
http://capmembers.com/media/cms/R052_016_2011_02_BFAB729553AB1.pdf
Page 1:  Summary of changes.

Just looked at it try again. Previous prohibition was for senior members.  But nice try at a spin.

[JeffDG]

Hmmm...seems that NHQ thinks that the prohibition of alcohol applies to cadet activities only too:

From the "changes" section:

In 2-4c, the longstanding prohibitions on
the possession of alcohol at cadet activities are restored.

Really what reg because what I see in 52-16 says otherwise

Here ya go:
http://capmembers.com/media/cms/R052_016_2011_02_BFAB729553AB1.pdf
Page 1:  Summary of changes.

Just looked at it try again.

Seriously?

SUMMARY OF CHANGES. Change 1 modifies two sections. In 2-4c, the longstanding prohibitions on
the possession of alcohol at cadet activities are restored. In 8-2, the requirement for cadets to obtain
region commander approval to participate in activities outside the cadet's home region is rescinded. All
other shaded areas identify substantive changes to the December 2012 edition. Note: Shaded areas
identify new or revised material. For a summary of changes, see page 40.

Do I need to post a picture?

[abdsp51]

Hmmm...seems that NHQ thinks that the prohibition of alcohol applies to cadet activities only too:

From the "changes" section:

In 2-4c, the longstanding prohibitions on
the possession of alcohol at cadet activities are restored.

Really what reg because what I see in 52-16 says otherwise

Here ya go:
http://capmembers.com/media/cms/R052_016_2011_02_BFAB729553AB1.pdf
Page 1:  Summary of changes.

Just looked at it try again.

Seriously?

SUMMARY OF CHANGES. Change 1 modifies two sections. In 2-4c, the longstanding prohibitions on
the possession of alcohol at cadet activities are restored. In 8-2, the requirement for cadets to obtain
region commander approval to participate in activities outside the cadet's home region is rescinded. All
other shaded areas identify substantive changes to the December 2012 edition. Note: Shaded areas
identify new or revised material. For a summary of changes, see page 40.

Do I need to post a picture?

The verbage on cadet use and possesion is the same.  Cadets will not...even if local laws allow.  Which is what this thread was about.  The portion you focused on governs senior member ise of alcohol at cadet activities.

52-16 says no posession period, violation of it is grounds for termination per 35-3.  It all comes down to what the commander wants to do. 

It's there in black and white.

[JeffDG]

Hmmm...seems that NHQ thinks that the prohibition of alcohol applies to cadet activities only too:

From the "changes" section:

In 2-4c, the longstanding prohibitions on
the possession of alcohol at cadet activities are restored.

Really what reg because what I see in 52-16 says otherwise

Here ya go:
http://capmembers.com/media/cms/R052_016_2011_02_BFAB729553AB1.pdf
Page 1:  Summary of changes.

Just looked at it try again. Previous prohibition was for senior members.  But nice try at a spin.

I'm not spinning.  Did you see the part about "at cadet activities"?  Are you seriously this dense that you can't see something that, in BLACK AND WHITE, contradicts your position.

Regardless, I see precisely nothing in 52-16 about its rules applying outside of CAP.  Do cadets that go with their families to a whitewater rafting trip need permission for HAA?  Or is it just, mysteriously, this one provision that applies extraterritorially?

[lordmonar]

But bottom line.....CAP commands, regulations and policies are in force 24-7 in or out of uniform.

That's utterly false, and you know it.

If I go fly a private aircraft, I don't need a flight release, I don't need to file a flight plan if I'm going >50nm, or any of that.

CAP regulations apply on CAP time.  Hell, this message is in violation of CAPR 10-1, in that it lacks the appropriate header and footers for a message.

True.....but if you touch a child on your one time.....you are out of CAP.  If you get a DUI on your own time you loose your CAP driver's license.  You drink under age and you could be out of CAP.   

"It was on my own time" is not an excuse for violating the regulations.  And you know that as well.

Sure....you go fly your own plane you don't need a flight release...because 60-1 does not cover your own private aircraft.  It only applies to CAP aircraft and to member owned aircraft on CAP time.    But if you fly your private aircraft like a maniac on your own time......and you violate FARs on your own time.....CAP can and should deal with that as appropriate.

You can yell and holler all day long......but you know this to be true.

[JeffDG]

Hmmm...seems that NHQ thinks that the prohibition of alcohol applies to cadet activities only too:

From the "changes" section:

In 2-4c, the longstanding prohibitions on
the possession of alcohol at cadet activities are restored.

Really what reg because what I see in 52-16 says otherwise

Here ya go:
http://capmembers.com/media/cms/R052_016_2011_02_BFAB729553AB1.pdf
Page 1:  Summary of changes.

Just looked at it try again.

Seriously?

SUMMARY OF CHANGES. Change 1 modifies two sections. In 2-4c, the longstanding prohibitions on
the possession of alcohol at cadet activities are restored. In 8-2, the requirement for cadets to obtain
region commander approval to participate in activities outside the cadet's home region is rescinded. All
other shaded areas identify substantive changes to the December 2012 edition. Note: Shaded areas
identify new or revised material. For a summary of changes, see page 40.

Do I need to post a picture?

The verbage on cadet use and possesion is the same.  Cadets will not...even if local laws allow.  Which is what this thread was about.  The portion you focused on governs senior member ise of alcohol at cadet activities.

Absolutely.  No possession "at cadet activities", right there on Page 1.

[JeffDG]

But bottom line.....CAP commands, regulations and policies are in force 24-7 in or out of uniform.

That's utterly false, and you know it.

If I go fly a private aircraft, I don't need a flight release, I don't need to file a flight plan if I'm going >50nm, or any of that.

CAP regulations apply on CAP time.  Hell, this message is in violation of CAPR 10-1, in that it lacks the appropriate header and footers for a message.

True.....but if you touch a child on your one time.....you are out of CAP.  If you get a DUI on your own time you loose your CAP driver's license.  You drink under age and you could be out of CAP.   

"It was on my own time" is not an excuse for violating the regulations.  And you know that as well.

Sure....you go fly your CAP plane you don't need a flight release...because 60-1 does not cover your own private aircraft.  It only applies to CAP aircraft and to POA's on CAP time.    But if you fly your private aircraft like a maniac on your own time......and you violate FARs on your own time.....CAP can and should deal with that as appropriate.

You can yell and holler all day long......but you know this to be true.

No, I don't.  Can you point out where 60-1 says it only applies to CAP aircraft?

Unless a regulation specifically calls out outside conduct, it doesn't apply.  The concept in law is called "extraterritoriality".  For example, if you as a US Citizen go to Mexico and kill someone, you cannot be prosecuted under US law, because murder laws are not extraterritorial.  You can be prosecuted under Mexican law.

On the other hand, the Tax Code applies to US Citizens wherever they may be.  It has explicit provisions making it apply extraterritoriality.  The basic principle is that absent such explicit provisions, laws only apply within the domain of the lawmaker.  In CAPs case, our "laws" apply only to CAP activities, unless they specifically state otherwise.

NHQ has even gone further and specifically said that the prohibition of alcohol is applicable "at cadet activities".

[abdsp51]

Bottom line its not allowed period.  If a cadet wants to drink underage then they don't have to be a member. 

But again you're ok with it more power to you.

[abdsp51]

But bottom line.....CAP commands, regulations and policies are in force 24-7 in or out of uniform.

That's utterly false, and you know it.

If I go fly a private aircraft, I don't need a flight release, I don't need to file a flight plan if I'm going >50nm, or any of that.

CAP regulations apply on CAP time.  Hell, this message is in violation of CAPR 10-1, in that it lacks the appropriate header and footers for a message.

True.....but if you touch a child on your one time.....you are out of CAP.  If you get a DUI on your own time you loose your CAP driver's license.  You drink under age and you could be out of CAP.   

"It was on my own time" is not an excuse for violating the regulations.  And you know that as well.

Sure....you go fly your CAP plane you don't need a flight release...because 60-1 does not cover your own private aircraft.  It only applies to CAP aircraft and to POA's on CAP time.    But if you fly your private aircraft like a maniac on your own time......and you violate FARs on your own time.....CAP can and should deal with that as appropriate.

You can yell and holler all day long......but you know this to be true.

No, I don't.  Can you point out where 60-1 says it only applies to CAP aircraft?

Unless a regulation specifically calls out outside conduct, it doesn't apply.  The concept in law is called "extraterritoriality".  For example, if you as a US Citizen go to Mexico and kill someone, you cannot be prosecuted under US law, because murder laws are not extraterritorial.  You can be prosecuted under Mexican law.

On the other hand, the Tax Code applies to US Citizens wherever they may be.  It has explicit provisions making it apply extraterritoriality.  The basic principle is that absent such explicit provisions, laws only apply within the domain of the lawmaker.  In CAPs case, our "laws" apply only to CAP activities, unless they specifically state otherwise.

NHQ has even gone further and specifically said that the prohibition of alcohol is applicable "at cadet activities".

No it doesn't but again nice attempt at a spin..

[JeffDG]

But bottom line.....CAP commands, regulations and policies are in force 24-7 in or out of uniform.

That's utterly false, and you know it.

If I go fly a private aircraft, I don't need a flight release, I don't need to file a flight plan if I'm going >50nm, or any of that.

CAP regulations apply on CAP time.  Hell, this message is in violation of CAPR 10-1, in that it lacks the appropriate header and footers for a message.

True.....but if you touch a child on your one time.....you are out of CAP.  If you get a DUI on your own time you loose your CAP driver's license.  You drink under age and you could be out of CAP.   

"It was on my own time" is not an excuse for violating the regulations.  And you know that as well.

Sure....you go fly your CAP plane you don't need a flight release...because 60-1 does not cover your own private aircraft.  It only applies to CAP aircraft and to POA's on CAP time.    But if you fly your private aircraft like a maniac on your own time......and you violate FARs on your own time.....CAP can and should deal with that as appropriate.

You can yell and holler all day long......but you know this to be true.

No, I don't.  Can you point out where 60-1 says it only applies to CAP aircraft?

Unless a regulation specifically calls out outside conduct, it doesn't apply.  The concept in law is called "extraterritoriality".  For example, if you as a US Citizen go to Mexico and kill someone, you cannot be prosecuted under US law, because murder laws are not extraterritorial.  You can be prosecuted under Mexican law.

On the other hand, the Tax Code applies to US Citizens wherever they may be.  It has explicit provisions making it apply extraterritoriality.  The basic principle is that absent such explicit provisions, laws only apply within the domain of the lawmaker.  In CAPs case, our "laws" apply only to CAP activities, unless they specifically state otherwise.

NHQ has even gone further and specifically said that the prohibition of alcohol is applicable "at cadet activities".

No it doesn't but again nice attempt at a spin..

"Spin"?  So the reg doesn't have the words "at cadet activities" right on Page 1?  Hmmm...who's spinning?

I have it in black and white.  You have bluster.  Glad you're not in my wing, because a 2B initiated for that would be dumped in the tank pretty quick.

[JeffDG]

Bottom line its not allowed period.  If a cadet wants to drink underage then they don't have to be a member. 

But again you're ok with it more power to you.

If a cadet wants to drink underage, that's between them and their parents.  CAP is not a party to that conversation unless it's "at a cadet activity" as specified on Page 1 of CAPR 52-16.

[abdsp51]

But bottom line.....CAP commands, regulations and policies are in force 24-7 in or out of uniform.

That's utterly false, and you know it.

If I go fly a private aircraft, I don't need a flight release, I don't need to file a flight plan if I'm going >50nm, or any of that.

CAP regulations apply on CAP time.  Hell, this message is in violation of CAPR 10-1, in that it lacks the appropriate header and footers for a message.

True.....but if you touch a child on your one time.....you are out of CAP.  If you get a DUI on your own time you loose your CAP driver's license.  You drink under age and you could be out of CAP.   

"It was on my own time" is not an excuse for violating the regulations.  And you know that as well.

Sure....you go fly your CAP plane you don't need a flight release...because 60-1 does not cover your own private aircraft.  It only applies to CAP aircraft and to POA's on CAP time.    But if you fly your private aircraft like a maniac on your own time......and you violate FARs on your own time.....CAP can and should deal with that as appropriate.

You can yell and holler all day long......but you know this to be true.

No, I don't.  Can you point out where 60-1 says it only applies to CAP aircraft?

Unless a regulation specifically calls out outside conduct, it doesn't apply.  The concept in law is called "extraterritoriality".  For example, if you as a US Citizen go to Mexico and kill someone, you cannot be prosecuted under US law, because murder laws are not extraterritorial.  You can be prosecuted under Mexican law.

On the other hand, the Tax Code applies to US Citizens wherever they may be.  It has explicit provisions making it apply extraterritoriality.  The basic principle is that absent such explicit provisions, laws only apply within the domain of the lawmaker.  In CAPs case, our "laws" apply only to CAP activities, unless they specifically state otherwise.

NHQ has even gone further and specifically said that the prohibition of alcohol is applicable "at cadet activities".

No it doesn't but again nice attempt at a spin..

"Spin"

I have it in black and white.  You have bluster.  Glad you're not in my wing, because a 2B initiated for that would be dumped in the tank pretty quick.

I have it in black and white as well it says cadets will not posses  alcohol period.  The prohibition applies to senior members at cadet activities.

But I see the example you set for your cadets.  Go ahead and drink and smoke and toke the freen grass as long as it's not on CAP time.

[abdsp51]

Bottom line its not allowed period.  If a cadet wants to drink underage then they don't have to be a member. 

But again you're ok with it more power to you.

If a cadet wants to drink underage, that's between them and their parents.  CAP is not a party to that conversation unless it's "at a cadet activity" as specified on Page 1 of CAPR 52-16.

Go back and read that paragraph the first line of it then read rhe rest of it.  It does not apply just to cadet activities only.  But hey when your cadets show up under the influence or at a mission that way who cares right wasn't on CAP's time.

[lordmonar]

Jeff....you can play regs lawyer all day long.


But bottom line.

Your conduct outside of CAP does affect your membership, your position, you rank and your decorations in CAP.

That is the end of story.  You can't argue that it does not...because we all know from the three things I just mentioned can get you canned from CAP.

Touch a child.....out you go!   
If you are disrespectful to a senior member (like on CT) and it does reflect.
Post some bad CAP pictures on Face Book and you can be ordered to take them down.
Drive bad in your own car....and it can result in your driving privileges taken away.
Fly bad in your own plane....and you can get grounded from flying from CAP.
Violate a direct order from you commander (such as "don't talk to cadets in chat rooms") and you are out...even if it was on your own time.

You can talk about the law all day long...but this is not the law....this is CAP.   What the government can and can't do has little bearing on what CAP can or can't do.

[JeffDG]

I have it in black and white as well it says cadets will not posses  alcohol period.  The prohibition applies to senior members at cadet activities.

But I see the example you set for your cadets.  Go ahead and drink and smoke and toke the freen grass as long as it's not on CAP time.

Where do you have it that the reg applies outside cadet activities?  You might want to check some law on the matter.  What I wrote about extraterritoriality is well established law.  Absent an explicit statement that the regulation applies outside of CAP activities, it simply does not.

Your example to cadets is that you don't care what the rules actually are, you just make things up as you go.  You would remove a cadet who receives wine for communion, or who legally has a glass of wine with Thanksgiving dinner (in compliance with both federal and state law).  You would butt your nose in where it doesn't belong.

[JeffDG]

Jeff....you can play regs lawyer all day long.


But bottom line.

Your conduct outside of CAP does affect your membership, your position, you rank and your decorations in CAP.

There it is end of story.  You can't argue that it does not...because we all know from the three things I just mentioned can get you canned from CAP.

Touch a child.....out you go!   

Yep, that role is explicitly spelled out as applying outside of CAP, just like the felony rule.

If you are disrespectful to a senior member (like on CT) and it does reflect.
Post some bad CAP pictures on Face Book and you can be ordered to take them down.

Again explicitly spelled out in ES and PA regs.

Drive bad in your own car....and it can result in your driving privileges taken away.

Expressly covered in transportation regulations as covering outside activities

Fly bad in your own plane....and you can get grounded from flying from CAP.

Same thing.  Notice a pattern.  Regulations that call out outside conduct are clear and explicit about doing so.

Violate a direct order from you commander (such as "don't talk to cadets in chat rooms") and you are out...even if it was on your own time.

Again, the order is clear that it applies to outside conduct.

You can talk about the law all day long...but this is not the law....this is CAP.   What the government can and can't do has little bearing on what CAP can or can't do.

Actually, the principles carry over to civil situations quite easily.  An effective reader of the regs will apply outside precedent to the situation.

[abdsp51]

I have it in black and white as well it says cadets will not posses  alcohol period.  The prohibition applies to senior members at cadet activities.

But I see the example you set for your cadets.  Go ahead and drink and smoke and toke the freen grass as long as it's not on CAP time.

Where do you have it that the reg applies outside cadet activities?  You might want to check some law on the matter.  What I wrote about extraterritoriality is well established law.  Absent an explicit statement that the regulation applies outside of CAP activities, it simply does not.

Your example to cadets is that you don't care what the rules actually are, you just make things up as you go.  You would remove a cadet who receives wine for communion, or who legally has a glass of wine with Thanksgiving dinner (in compliance with both federal and state law).  You would butt your nose in where it doesn't belong.

1) I do not dig period.
2) If it is brought to my attention then it will be dealt with period.

Make things up hardly I abide by the laws and regs set down.  The reg does not say at cadet activities only so there is the spin you are trying to put on it. 

Federal law says you have to be 21 to consume and posses alcohol. 

But again as long as it's not on CAP's time it's all kosher got it.