Got my answer, thanks.
CAP weight standards are not the same as USAF. Basically, they are the USAF weight standards from the early 1980s + 10%.
They are in CAPM39-1
.....and outdated and no longer in line with current USAF policy.......
MK
Are the 1980's standard + 10% easier (or better) than the current USAF standard?
Would switching to the current standard + 10% be a better option if possible?
Quote from: shuman14 on July 03, 2015, 05:41:36 PM
Are the 1980's standard + 10% easier (or better) than the current USAF standard?
Would switching to the current standard + 10% be a better option if possible?
There is no H/W for the AF except for entry.
USAF members are only required to present a professional image while in uniform. If that means you weigh 250 lbs, as long as you don't look like your uniform is bursting at the seams you are pretty much good to go.
I am sure CAP is hesitant to go to such a standard only because no one is likely to enforce that to harshly. (though as a USAF reservist, I haven't seen it pushed to hard either)
MK
Quote from: sarmed1 on July 03, 2015, 11:14:46 PM
USAF members are only required to present a professional image while in uniform. If that means you weigh 250 lbs, as long as you don't look like your uniform is bursting at the seams you are pretty much good to go.
I am sure CAP is hesitant to go to such a standard only because no one is likely to enforce that to harshly. (though as a USAF reservist, I haven't seen it pushed to hard either)
MK
Got to have a 39 inch or smaller waist too no matter how tall you are. Measuring everyone's waist in CAP would not go over very well I don't think. That is probably why CAP is using the last real weight standards that the USAF had.
The only standard for wearing the USAF uniform in the USAF.....is to be in the USAF.
You are required to wear the uniform properly....but if you had a 192" waist and weighed 700 lbs....you could still wear the uniform.
Granted PT failure would get you out of the USAF quick (and they measure you waist during that) and morbid obesity would get you MEB'ed real quick too....but you would continue to wear the uniform up until the last day.
this is a nit-picking hair-splitting distinction.....but an important one.
Unless waived, Air Force men must currently have no more than a 39-inch waist and women no more than a 35.5-inch waist. Otherwise, they fail the PT test regardless of their other scores. Because they also get scored on the abdominal circumference, having a larger waist will also affect their overall PT test scores.
Air Force members height and weight are also measured during their annual physical, and an Air Force doctor may determine that a member is overweight and needs to lose weight. In addition, commanders can address members who do not present a good military appearance while in uniform due to weight.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 04, 2015, 01:43:14 AM
Unless waived, Air Force men must currently have no more than a 39-inch waist and women no more than a 35.5-inch waist. Otherwise, they fail the PT test regardless of their other scores. Because they also get scored on the abdominal circumference, having a larger waist will also affect their overall PT test scores.
Air Force members height and weight are also measured during the annual physical and an Air Force doctor may determine that a member is overweight and needs to lose weight. In addition, commanders can address members who do not present a good military appearance while in uniform due to weight.
Yes. I believe I said all that. And they get to wear the uniform right up to their last day on active duty.
My point is....that the USAF has standards for being IN the USAF....but not standards for being allowed to wear the uniform.
Like I said....hair-splitting, Nit-picking distinction....but important to note when discussing this topic.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 04, 2015, 01:43:14 AM
Unless waived, Air Force men must currently have no more than a 39-inch waist and women no more than a 35.5-inch waist. Otherwise, they fail the PT test regardless of their other scores. Because they also get scored on the abdominal circumference, having a larger waist will also affect their overall PT test scores.
...
that waiver happens to be a body fat percentage; so in essence, as long as you fall in the body fat standard (which I forget off hand) waist size is still irrelevant. Ultimately being a big boy/girl doe not outright disqualify you from uniform wear.
mk
Quote from: lordmonar on July 04, 2015, 01:48:30 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 04, 2015, 01:43:14 AM
Unless waived, Air Force men must currently have no more than a 39-inch waist and women no more than a 35.5-inch waist. Otherwise, they fail the PT test regardless of their other scores. Because they also get scored on the abdominal circumference, having a larger waist will also affect their overall PT test scores.
Air Force members height and weight are also measured during the annual physical and an Air Force doctor may determine that a member is overweight and needs to lose weight. In addition, commanders can address members who do not present a good military appearance while in uniform due to weight.
Yes. I believe I said all that. And they get to wear the uniform right up to their last day on active duty.
My point is....that the USAF has standards for being IN the USAF....but not standards for being allowed to wear the uniform.
Like I said....hair-splitting, Nit-picking distinction....but important to note when discussing this topic.
I was providing information on current Air Force policies, not replying to your post. Air Force members can "wear the uniform right up to their last day on active duty" because it's required by service members and the Air Force does not have alternative uniforms for those who do not meet appropriate standards. CAP senior members are not required to wear the Air Force-style uniform and do have alternative corporate uniforms available for those who do not meet the required standards. That's not splitting hairs, but a fact.
Out.
Quote from: kwe1009 on July 04, 2015, 12:16:42 AM
Quote from: sarmed1 on July 03, 2015, 11:14:46 PM
USAF members are only required to present a professional image while in uniform. If that means you weigh 250 lbs, as long as you don't look like your uniform is bursting at the seams you are pretty much good to go.
I am sure CAP is hesitant to go to such a standard only because no one is likely to enforce that to harshly. (though as a USAF reservist, I haven't seen it pushed to hard either)
MK
Got to have a 39 inch or smaller waist too no matter how tall you are. Measuring everyone's waist in CAP would not go over very well I don't think. That is probably why CAP is using the last real weight standards that the USAF had.
39 inches! I had that in like sixth grade, never since! :o
Quote from: shuman14 on July 04, 2015, 03:44:30 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on July 04, 2015, 12:16:42 AM
Quote from: sarmed1 on July 03, 2015, 11:14:46 PM
USAF members are only required to present a professional image while in uniform. If that means you weigh 250 lbs, as long as you don't look like your uniform is bursting at the seams you are pretty much good to go.
I am sure CAP is hesitant to go to such a standard only because no one is likely to enforce that to harshly. (though as a USAF reservist, I haven't seen it pushed to hard either)
MK
Got to have a 39 inch or smaller waist too no matter how tall you are. Measuring everyone's waist in CAP would not go over very well I don't think. That is probably why CAP is using the last real weight standards that the USAF had.
39 inches! I had that in like sixth grade, never since! :o
Then it's probably a good thing you're not in the Air Force/Air Force Reserve/Air National Guard then.
Concur, when I was in the Corps, it was a simple meet the weight or not, the Army does a body fat index using a tape test if you don't meet table weight; which is better but not a 100% accurate.
Seen enough people slide by using the "suck gut" method or doing about the hundred barbell shrugs right before they tape.
Most accurate is hydrostatic displacement but the Army won't pay for that.
An arbitrary waist measurement makes little sense. You could be 5'1" and ALL gut and pass it but be 5'11" and solid muscle and fail it.
I find that there are a lot of seniors, especially those in higher up positions (generally older seniors), who are well outside of the height/weight requirements for their age still wearing the Air Force uniform. I think it's because nobody dare tell them they can't. Then again, we've all seen active duty officers who don't meet the height/weight requirements wearing their uniforms because there's no way anyone is going to go up to an O-5 and tell them they aren't in proper uniform.
What I can't stand is seeing seniors who have one BDU sleeve buttoned and the other unbuttoned, collars all jacked up, and their hair isn't cut/styled to regs. It sets a terrible example and looks greatly unprofessional.
I was taught you either wear the uniform properly or you get out of the uniform.
And if I see one more faux hawk.....ugh...
Quote from: shuman14 on July 09, 2015, 02:33:02 PM
...
Seen enough people slide by using the "suck gut" method or doing about the hundred barbell shrugs right before they tape.
...
I was doing the taping for my unit one weekend (National Guard) had the guy fail on Saturday, told him come back on sunday and we would re-weigh and tape. He passed the tape on sunday. I asked him what he did, he told me he put a free weight on a strap and and put it around his neck and lifted it up and down until he couldn't lift it anymore.....
MK
Quote from: SM/McNeilly on July 09, 2015, 03:04:03 PM
I find that there are a lot of seniors, especially those in higher up positions (generally older seniors), who are well outside of the height/weight requirements for their age still wearing the Air Force uniform. I think it's because nobody dare tell them they can't. Then again, we've all seen active duty officers who don't meet the height/weight requirements wearing their uniforms because there's no way anyone is going to go up to an O-5 and tell them they aren't in proper uniform.
What I can't stand is seeing seniors who have one BDU sleeve buttoned and the other unbuttoned, collars all jacked up, and their hair isn't cut/styled to regs. It sets a terrible example and looks greatly unprofessional.
I was taught you either wear the uniform properly or you get out of the uniform.
And if I see one more faux hawk.....ugh...
Horsehockey.
If you see a CAP member with a questionable uniform, call them on it. The majority of the times that I did this, it was greeted with, while looking down and patting their upper body "What? Oh, really? Well thanks for pointing that out..." Most times it was corrected by the next time they came to a CAP event. Of course, there are those rare exceptions where the person is a burro. Then they always have a commander...Where are you seeing AD unis out of whack? I have a hard time believing that, with all of the testing, taping, PFTs, and more taping. As to your comment about nobody wanting to call an O5 on their uniform, that is why there are O6s....
Quote from: SM/McNeilly on July 09, 2015, 03:04:03 PM
Then again, we've all seen active duty officers who don't meet the height/weight requirements wearing their uniforms because there's no way anyone is going to go up to an O-5 and tell them they aren't in proper uniform.
They are still in proper uniform if they do not meet the appropriate H/W requirements assuming they are not busting a button. Not meeting H/W is not not being in proper uniform. The two are unrelated.
Quote from: THRAWN on July 09, 2015, 04:47:23 PM
Where are you seeing AD unis out of whack? I have a hard time believing that, with all of the testing, taping, PFTs, and more taping. As to your comment about nobody wanting to call an O5 on their uniform, that is why there are O6s....
There are plenty of people in the military that do not meet height/weight or equivalent standards. The difference is, even though they do not meet H/W, they are still required to wear their uniform. There is no alternative to their uniform like we have in CAP with the corporate uniforms.
In all honesty, unless the uniform looks like garbage, that O-6 is not going to say anything. The E-9 advisor is probably the best person that will correct that O-5.
"There are plenty of people in the military that do not meet height/weight or equivalent standards. The difference is, even though they do not meet H/W, they are still required to wear their uniform. There is no alternative to their uniform like we have in CAP with the corporate uniforms."
Agreed. If that's the case, they have a small window to get into specs, or get out. They're also not as common as the poster I replied to seems to imply. Agree too about the SEA, and like you state, depends on how lousy the uniform looks.
Quote from: THRAWN on July 09, 2015, 04:47:23 PM
Quote from: SM/McNeilly on July 09, 2015, 03:04:03 PM
I find that there are a lot of seniors, especially those in higher up positions (generally older seniors), who are well outside of the height/weight requirements for their age still wearing the Air Force uniform. I think it's because nobody dare tell them they can't. Then again, we've all seen active duty officers who don't meet the height/weight requirements wearing their uniforms because there's no way anyone is going to go up to an O-5 and tell them they aren't in proper uniform.
What I can't stand is seeing seniors who have one BDU sleeve buttoned and the other unbuttoned, collars all jacked up, and their hair isn't cut/styled to regs. It sets a terrible example and looks greatly unprofessional.
I was taught you either wear the uniform properly or you get out of the uniform.
And if I see one more faux hawk.....ugh...
Horsehockey.
If you see a CAP member with a questionable uniform, call them on it. The majority of the times that I did this, it was greeted with, while looking down and patting their upper body "What? Oh, really? Well thanks for pointing that out..." Most times it was corrected by the next time they came to a CAP event. Of course, there are those rare exceptions where the person is a burro. Then they always have a commander...Where are you seeing AD unis out of whack? I have a hard time believing that, with all of the testing, taping, PFTs, and more taping. As to your comment about nobody wanting to call an O5 on their uniform, that is why there are O6s....
Been there. Done that. Not every senior member takes it seriously. That's just the way they are. You say, "the regs say....yadda yadda." They come back with "Well, yeah, but..." Not every unit it there is golden and hardcore to the books. I've addressed it at times, and it goes nowhere.
As for AD, no, it's not excessively common. But it is seen on occasion. If it's someone several grades above me, I wouldn't circumvent their authority and go up the chain on that. You start meddling with authority there, and even if you're correct, it's not going to come down good on you. But that's a non-CAP issue elsewhere.
As for CAP, the truth is, there are some seniors who don't want to hear it, especially not from a newer person. There are plenty of seniors with absolutely zero experience or ties with the military who just don't think it's an issue to be addressed. There are times when it's been brought up to seniors about cadets who continuously wear their uniform improperly or don't groom accordingly and they say not to worry about it.
At the end of the day, address it, and if it doesn't go anywhere after several attempts, just move on and do what you can.
When I was a young CAP member I had no problem correcting uniform issues (never rudely mind you) but I found over time that most every senior member has an excuse that they assume is unwaivering, "...my commander told me its ok because of XYZ, I have a medical waiver, in my unit this is an authorized item, we have a supplement that approves it, the wing commander has one too so its ok etc etc." The only ones who listened were new to the program, former cadets or those with less rank (which were usually new to the program or former cadets)
I dont really correct senior members anymore because of that; it becomes frustrating. Weight was usually the least of the issues, but it did come up now and again (BITD it was more overweight with rank on their BDU's...... vs wrong uniform)
MK
Quote from: sarmed1 on July 09, 2015, 06:54:54 PM
When I was a young CAP member I had no problem correcting uniform issues (never rudely mind you) but I found over time that most every senior member has an excuse that they assume is unwaivering, "...my commander told me its ok because of XYZ, I have a medical waiver, in my unit this is an authorized item, we have a supplement that approves it, the wing commander has one too so its ok etc etc." The only ones who listened were new to the program, former cadets or those with less rank (which were usually new to the program or former cadets)
I dont really correct senior members anymore because of that; it becomes frustrating. Weight was usually the least of the issues, but it did come up now and again (BITD it was more overweight with rank on their BDU's...... vs wrong uniform)
MK
That's exactly what I was getting at.
And a major problem I see is that you get some higher-ranking cadets who get really fed up with the squadron because the standards don't get taken seriously.
I'm not trying to talk down my unit at all; not my intent whatsoever. But I'll throw out an example here...
We had a C/Maj who was CC for a brief period. The CC he had replaced was very laid back because he preferred to make friends with the cadets that be a person of responsibility over them. He got bored and walked away from the unit, so C/Maj took his slot, far outranking his prior to begin with. The issue is that the former CC's mother was the Deputy Commander for Cadets. During the C/Maj's stint as CC, he was more strict with the grooming policy and expected cadets to show up wearing the uniform properly. The CDC didn't agree with that and told the CC that he needed to lay off those standards. The CDC's other son had just become a Senior Member at that time and in her absence also tried to lay down the law that she had required of the CC. After some time of putting up with it, he walked away, only to recently come back to the squadron after transferring in a non-CC capacity as C/LtCol. Our unit is closer to home for him, but he has been extremely involved in other units and national activities where he feels that there is a greater appreciation for following textbook policies. So the squadron has grown to slack on grooming, allowing cadets to wear the uniform with haircuts well out of regs (without a doubt), obvious beards/goatees coming in, and unauthorized jewelry. The CDC has been absent for some time due to inactivity, but the relaxed standards still seem to be in place. It's slowly starting to come around as some cadets have addressed their issues with me as I stepped into the cadet programs realm of responsibility, but seniors really aren't pulling a lot of strings on the matter, saying it's up to the cadets to run their own program, and they don't want to piss off parents.
In my position, it's something I've addressed during promotion review boards, but it doesn't go much higher than that when I address it with my boss. I, personally, don't appreciate the appearance of some of our cadets during open-to-the-public events. I don't think it represents that professionalism. But then again, our senior members don't think these are issues requiring correction.
We have had seniors who don't look appropriate. I've addressed it before, but I got shot down very quickly as I'm being that "new member" who wants to come in and change everything.
It might just take me some time to stay with the unit and develop a greater trust from them or something. I don't know at this point. But I know for sure that if I tell a cadet "you need to cut your hair, that's the last time I tell you about it" I'm going to be told right away that I'm never to talk to a cadet like that again. It's how things have been run in this squadron, or so I'm told by some of the more serious cadets themselves, for the last several years.