CAP Grey Shoulder Marks...Did you know?

[cnitas]

I was around and very active at the time; the apparent punitive nature of the change was basically accepted as gospel when all of this went down.

We used to have photos of many/all? Natl Commanders in the senior member  office.  I noticed we used to wear blue.  It was explaind to me back in '91 that the change was punitive for the Harwell stuff.

I doubt seriously that CAP made the change voluntarily.

[cap235629]

here is another wrinkle on this story

At our wing's recent SLS class, the course director (who is also an AD Air Force Officer) during his section on uniforms and professionalism related a version of the berry board change.

This version involved 2 "senior CAP officers" were at a conference on an AF Base and berated a Chief Master Sergeant for not saluting them.  The story goes on that the Chief was a bit irritated and reported the incident to his chain of command and the resulting action was the berry boards.  May be another urban legend but if this even has a grain of truth to it, maybe the CAP culture that prevailed at the time was the REAL reason for all of the changes and USAF response was appropriate, direct and necessary

[Rob Sherlin]

  Never knew the reason why they chose the maroon epaulet sleeves (thanks for that bit of info).......The story of punishment for someone on top "self promoting" is kind of far fetched, but still is an interesting story (I can't see how anyone would expect to get away with that for too long) with kind of a moral lesson to it. The main thing is....I agree they were "off color" to the uniforms, but then again, they're not used anymore.
  So, in the right situation, you can probably use this "myth" as a tool when teaching about a lot of things............Maroon and blue?..........You don't even have to see it to know it's a bad combination.

  Maybe we should adopt that concept again for punishment for people who are out of uniform... ...Just kiddin'

[Eclipse]

  Maybe we should adopt that concept again for punishment for people who are out of uniform... ...Just kiddin'

Would that then be...The Scarlett Epaulet?

[Major Carrales]

Brothers and Sisters, this issue represents two different ideas.  

1) That the USAF was seeking distinctive CAP uniforms in the late 1980s and early 90s.  They instituted the Maroon color to reflect the arcane red trimmings of WWII.  This was unpopular and an alternate color, of which grey was one of the candidates and was approved, was proposed.

2) Some event, be it a duo of CAP Officers demanding salutes or the Self-promotion of a CAP National Commander instituted punative actions against CAP.  

The prior seems to have the most basis in  reality in accordance with what the USAF wanted.  The latter is riddled with holes, heresay and, frankly, DRAMA.

I would think that at the very least, if the USAF would have demaned the loss of one Star.  it is far fetched that the "USAF machine" would go as far as that over one incident.  It is more likely the discussion of a more distinctive CAP Uniform was in the works as early as the 1970s.  Once the "Pepsi Cola" patch was gone and CAP uniforms looked like USAF unifroms (save for a nameplate and wierd looking and plastic encased ribbons), the need for distinction was evident.


This is my speculation now...
If I may propose this extremely controversial statement.  The CAP Uniforms of the mid-1970s to the early 1990s were not distinctive enough (prior more identical uniforms of the 1940s and 1950s reflected a very different time for CAP, in that even the USO and RED CROSS wore some military style uniform).  

It was a time of good luck for the CAP to have an almost identical uniform.  Furthermore, those who remember that era fondly in terms of uniforms were living in a gilded age for CAP uniforms.

The point being that the blue shoulder marks and medal rank on USAF Style Uniforms is not likely to ever come back.  While this is sad for many, it is the current reality.

[Major Carrales]

  Never knew the reason why they chose the maroon epaulet sleeves (thanks for that bit of info).......The story of punishment for someone on top "self promoting" is kind of far fetched, but still is an interesting story (I can't see how anyone would expect to get away with that for too long) with kind of a moral lesson to it. The main thing is....I agree they were "off color" to the uniforms, but then again, they're not used anymore.

This would be similar to the George Washington legends of which I  mentioned in an earlier post.  As a morality tale and warning, it is great.  As an actual accounting of what happed...it is suspect.

[ßτε]

Brothers and Sisters, this issue represents two different ideas.  

1) That the USAF was seeking distinctive CAP uniforms in the late 1980s and early 90s.  They instituted the Maroon color to reflect the arcane red trimmings of WWII.  This was unpopular and an alternate color, of which grey was one of the candidates and was approved, was proposed.

2) Some event, be it a duo of CAP Officers demanding salutes or the Self-promotion of a CAP National Commander instituted punative actions against CAP.  

My guess is that it was incidents like number 2) that prompted number 1). For 20+ years hard rank was worn on the uniform just like the AF. The AF didn't have a problem with it until the early 90's. What might have triggered the desire for a more distinctive uniform? I don't know for sure, but events described in this discussion sure seem like plausible motivations for the USAF to want our uniforms more distinctive than they were.

[Major Carrales]

Brothers and Sisters, this issue represents two different ideas.  

1) That the USAF was seeking distinctive CAP uniforms in the late 1980s and early 90s.  They instituted the Maroon color to reflect the arcane red trimmings of WWII.  This was unpopular and an alternate color, of which grey was one of the candidates and was approved, was proposed.

2) Some event, be it a duo of CAP Officers demanding salutes or the Self-promotion of a CAP National Commander instituted punative actions against CAP.  

My guess is that it was incidents like number 2) that prompted number 1). For 20+ years hard rank was worn on the uniform just like the AF. The AF didn't have a problem with it until the early 90's. What might have triggered the desire for a more distinctive uniform? I don't know for sure, but events described in this discussion sure seem like plausible motivations for the USAF to want our uniforms more distinctive than they were.

As I said, there is and was always to be a distinction between CAP and USAF uniforms.  In the early part of WWII the red did that, in the early 1950s CAP was still in pink-in-greens thus the USAF distinction was maintained.  The Adpotion of the Blue Uniforms there after had it with distinct buttons, "CAP" cut outs and a very non-USAF patch (the so-called Pepsi Cola) patch of the time worn over the right pocket.

After this in the 70s-80s the CAP uniform was not very distinct.  I suspect that the reason for the color changes lied more in correction of that matter than the punative ones mentioned.

I think, with the gery trimming and US on the cut outs, we have arrived at "as good as it gets."   

[cap235629]

Personally I like the grey epaulettes and think CAP should embrace them as our own and wear them on ALL uniforms INCLUDING the CSU. (before someone goes off on a tangent NO I am not advocating wearing them on BDU's etc., just service dress and csu)

[ßτε]

In the 70's and 80's, we still had distinctive buttons, CAP cutouts, Wing patches,  either a two-piece nameplate or a three-line nameplate. For more than twenty years, that was distinctive enough for the AF. Unless you are implying that it takes twenty years to make changes to the uniform, something in the early 90's motivated the AF to want CAP to have even more distinction. I know we are mostly speculating at this point, but the above incidents are a plausible explanation.

[Major Carrales]

In the 70's and 80's, we still had distinctive buttons, CAP cutouts, Wing patches,  either a two-piece nameplate or a three-line nameplate. For more than twenty years, that was distinctive enough for the AF. Unless you are implying that it takes twenty years to make changes to the uniform, something in the early 90's motivated the AF to want CAP to have even more distinction. I know we are mostly speculating at this point, but the above incidents are a plausible explanation.

As this thread finds it way to the end.  I find that I will be a supporter of General Anderson's "version."  Each may hold their own, but let me say this at this time... none of this is resolved.  I sould suggest that in future discussion of this, that the story be told as "it was believed" or "some people say," because none of this (pro of con) has been shown to be factucal.

[Major Carrales]

Personally I like the grey epaulettes and think CAP should embrace them as our own and wear them on ALL uniforms INCLUDING the CSU. (before someone goes off on a tangent NO I am not advocating wearing them on BDU's etc., just service dress and csu)

I agree, as CAP we should embrace the disctinction a bit mor than is done now and that the CSU have grey instead of blue.  There are many issues with the CSU that could be solved by that.

[RiverAux]

Unlike our white on ultramarine BDU/BBDU name tapes, etc., I've always thought the gray eps looked fine and don't mind that particular CAP/USAF distinction.  And really, I'd rather put eps on my service coat than try to get metal rank pinned on in the right spot each time. 

[Rob Sherlin]

  I don't want to get into the nametapes and patches on the blue BDU's....They would look great if the background color of the patches, and so forth matched. But getting back to "maroon" epaulet sleeves myth, it does almost seem like the whole "Scarlet Letter" story in some ways.

[FW]

I've heard almost 10 different reasons we ended up with "berry" boards during the 80s and the 90s.  However, I'm sticking with the version I heard from Len Blascovich, our historian.  According to Col. Blascovich, the change of our eps from blue to maroon was a result of a "disagreement" between the SECAF and CSAF over Gen. Harwell's promotion to Maj Gen.    And, yes, the current combo on our uniform is just fine with me.  

Maybe we should worry more about current and future missions for CAP but, I guess that would be too boring....

[FlyingTerp]

[SNIP]
I think, with the gery trimming and US on the cut outs, we have arrived at "as good as it gets."   

Well said.  Not to take this too far off topic, but I think a lot of folks undervalue how significant wearing the US cutouts really is. 

[RiverAux]

Well said.  Not to take this too far off topic, but I think a lot of folks undervalue how significant wearing the US cutouts really is. 

I've heard more than a hint of envy about this from my friends in the CG Aux.

[Rob Sherlin]

 I don't think the blue epaulet sleeves will ever be approved with the blue uniform. Even with the exception of having CAP on the sleeves, you'll still look like a USAF officer from a distance, which is what I think they're trying to differ from.

[RiverAux]

Interestingly, the CG Aux equivalent dark blue slacks with light blue shirt has blue sleeves for the officer marks, so from any distance (50+ feet) a CG Auxie could be mistaken for an AF officer as well as for a CG officer.  Of course, once you got closer there would be some more obvious differences (nameplate color primarily). 

[AlphaSigOU]

BITD WIWOAD with Ma Blue, I had just rejoined CAP as a senior member for the first time around; in those days we had hard rank on service dress but CAP cutouts on the lapels. One night a week I'd get off duty as an A1C cook in the chow hall and change into CAP blues as a CAP TFO and later 1st Lt. As I walked down the hill at Spangdahlem to the meeting place of the squadron I'd occasionally get a salute (which I returned), though if I didn't I wasn't going after the guy for not popping off one. My services squadron commander and first sergeant were aware of my membership in CAP and there was no heartburn from the base commander or the wing king, so there were no issues over me impersonating an officer. Those who asked me in the chow line a day or two later got the explanation  from me about CAP,  and that answer was satisfactory to them. (My CAP squadron commander was also in my squadron - he was the dorm manager, so he would have heard very quickly if I got out of line.)