CAP Grey Shoulder Marks...Did you know?

[Major Carrales]

Many people have been expressing their desire to wear Blue shoulder marks with an embroidered "CAP" letters and their grade.  This was the standard some 20-15 years ago or so.

After that the CAP went through maroon ones and finally to the familiar grey ones worn now.

I recently spoke with General Richard L. Anderson, former CAP National commander and recently retired USAF Colonel.  He told me of several things that are MYTHS, that are often treated as FACT on CAPTALK and other CAP FORUMS...


MYTH: Maroon Shoulder boards were a punishment for some former National Commander who self-promoted.

FACT: The USAF desired CAP to look more distinctive, Maroon was chosen because it was an attempt to harken back to the Red-Epaulet days of the Second World War.  Red looked decent on khaki, however, it looks rather out of place on a blue uniform.

When this proved universally unpopular, Gen Anderson told me that grey CAP epaulets were presented.  These are meant to reflect the grey of the Civil Air Patrol national flag, much as the USAF blue ones reflect that blue of the USAF colors.  General Anderson pointed out that he had discussed the matter with then General Fogleman.

Supporting Matters: If the USAF really was put out by a 2 star National Commander then why 1) was that commander allowed to continue to hold the rank as documented and 2) why did they allow the 2-Star in more recent years.

[Flying Pig]

Thanks for this.  This is a huge urban legend.

[dwb]

You can keep your facts, I prefer the more scandalous version.  Who doesn't like a little hearsay in their life?

[Stonewall]

You can keep your facts, I prefer the more scandalous version.  Who doesn't like a little hearsay in their life?

Yeah, I'm with Dan.  Rich's story is just plain boring.  (good guy, he bought me lunch in the Pentagon when he was CC and I happened to see him headed to a meeting with the AF Chief of Staff)

Besides, I like the story (reason for the switch) about the CAP senior who thew stars on his epaulets and booked the officers club for his daughter's wedding... 

[PaulR]

I left the CAP just before the transition to the Maroon Shoulder boards.   

To be perfectly honest, I like the current gray ones a lot.  They look good on the uniform while providing a distinct difference with the regular Air Force.

Thanks for the explaination on the changes.  I always thought it was a sort of punative(the maroon boards) action myself.  How long were they used?  I bet that they would be pretty rare collectors items today!

[Stonewall]

How long were they used? 

I want to say between 1990 and 1995.  I remember seeing them for the first time while I was still a cadet until 1991.  Then, in 1995, while the National Boards were in DC, they began selling them through the Bookstore at the Board.

[swamprat86]

I still have my 1Lt ones.  I think they were from about 90-91 til around 95 as well.  I only wore them until I was a Capt.

[ColonelJack]

The maroon shoulder loops were preceded by a narrower maroon band that was to loop around the service coat epaulet.  It was edged in silver and had a silver "CAP" embroidered in the center.  I have a set of those as well as my old "berry board" major and lieutenant colonel leaves.  They're prized possessions, really, since the gray loops were incoming at about the time I was outgoing.

Jack

[vento]

I am too new to CAP and have never seen a "Maroon" epaulet. Is there a picture somewhere for the curious to take a look?

[notaNCO forever]

I am too new to CAP and have never seen a "Maroon" epaulet. Is there a picture somewhere for the curious to take a look?

I'd like to see them to I'd like to know if they are as bad as people say they were.

[Eclipse]

I am too new to CAP and have never seen a "Maroon" epaulet. Is there a picture somewhere for the curious to take a look?

The wrap-around:



The berry boards:


On a service coat:


Source:  http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/index.php?title=CAP_Uniform_History

General Anderson may well be much closer to this than I will ever be, but I still tend to believe that the reason the USAF wanted us to be more "distinctive" is the Harwell situation.  There doesn't seem to be anything else significant around that time happening to CAP or the USAF that would cause such a shift in the relationship.

[notaNCO forever]

 They don't look as bad as I envisioned. The reason I was told for the change in color had nothing to do with the actual shoulder marks.

[swamprat86]

The images don't do them justice.  They were not that dark in real life.  If they were that dark, it probably wouldn't have beena s bad.

[NEBoom]

I am too new to CAP and have never seen a "Maroon" epaulet. Is there a picture somewhere for the curious to take a look?

The wrap-around:

The "wrap-around" loop was very short lived.  I only recall seeing it worn once.  I didn't get around to purchasing them before they were discontinued, apparently very few did.  The metal rank insignia was still worn, and the loop went on the service coat epaulet in the space between the rank and the button up by the shoulder.  I didn't think it looked too good.

We were frequently confused with the Salvation Army back in those days.  All in all, I like today's grey shoulder marks (especially on the coat) much better.

[Major Carrales]

General Anderson may well be much closer to this than I will ever be, but I still tend to believe that the reason the USAF wanted us to be more "distinctive" is the Harwell situation.  There doesn't seem to be anything else significant around that time happening to CAP or the USAF that would cause such a shift in the relationship.

General Anderson also agreed that CAP Officers and Cadets should stop looking at minor uniform changes as some sort of barometer for CAP/USAF relations.

There will always be a distinction between CAP and USAF uniforms, the USAF will always have say over the wear of that uniform and the USAF will always use that authority to insure that the CAP version looks more like a CAP uniform than is looks like a USAF one.

[Smithsonia]

Everybody has taken all the cool colors. I think we've got pink, deep purple, orange, and loud greens left... so as not to be confused with any other branch of any military service foreign or domestic from modern times or history. So it seems to me gray... is OK. Besides it matches my hair.

[Major Carrales]

Everybody has taken all the cool colors. I think we've got pink, deep purple, orange, and loud greens left... so as not to be confused with any other branch of any military service foreign or domestic from modern times or history. So it seems to me gray... is OK. Besides it matches my hair.

Grey is good, I think it is high time we all embraced them as "ours."  Grey and blue and pleasing to the eye and very much are the contemporary colors associated with CAP.  Only the historical RED would have a place.  I don't see them as vaible on blues.

[ltcmark]

I was sitting in the audience of the National Board meeting when Harwell made the announcement that he was getting promoted to Major General.  They immediately called the USAF Lieutenant General that was there, front and center to do the promotion.   (Sorry, I do not recall the Lt Gen's name).  You could tell by the look on his face he was shocked and he was not happy.  When the ceremony was over the Lt Gen did not even sit down.  He proceeded off the stage and he was met by his entourage at the bottom of the stage. 

This happened before cell phones were available, but they did have the bag phones.  There was a flurry of phone calls and then they quickly left the session.  I still remember looking at the Lt Gen as he walked out.  He was P O'ed.... I also remember that the Air Force presence was limited for the rest of the Boards.

After talking with my aunt, who used to be the personal secretary for the Lt Gen in USAF logistics, she said that you do not surprise General's like that.  There is a General's protocol that has to be followed.  Harwell not only embarrassed the General but he did not follow protocol.  Harwell side swiped CAP for his own personal gain.

The next year we were in the maroon epaulets.  I also remember USAF presence was limited at that Board meeting also.
What Gen Anderson is saying now may be the way the USAF wants it remembered, but I lived it.  Before the maroon, we had distinctive epaulets, they had CAP on them.  You had to be blind to not know the difference between USAF and CAP when you looked at the blue epaulets. 

I wore the maroon; I can attest that they were the ugliest thing that the Air Force has approved for the CAP uniform.  It really was an embarrassment to wear them.

[Major Carrales]

What Gen Anderson is saying now may be the way the USAF wants it remembered, but I lived it.  Before the maroon, we had distinctive epaulets, they had CAP on them.  You had to be blind to not know the difference between USAF and CAP when you looked at the blue epaulets. 

I wouldn't be so sure, just this week someone was saying that the grey epaulets looked blue through sun shades.

I will not presume to call into question General Anderson's words and surely will not prepetuate a rumor or myth.  I will take General Anderson at his word unless I can see...

1) USAF policy documentation specifically stating that this was punative or some other form of castigation.  I think it is safe to say that sort of documentation is not classified material.

2) CAP's contribution to the development of the Maroons and Greys.

3) Documenation from the era debating and discussing the change.

I would also like to know the process by which General Harwell's promotion came about.  It could not have been that much a suprise, some authority had to have debated and approved it.  Even in the most Draconian vision of the imagination of CAPTALK members could a National Commander do that, self-coronate himself, with no one knowing.

Also, why then is the man listed as Maj General Harwell still of it was a move so contrary to the USAF?  Other National Commanders have been stripped of it all for less brazen actions.  

There are too many holes in the "Harwell" story at this time for me to lend it any further support, whereas my support of the opposite is based on having been told the "rest of the story" from a former National Commander.

[ol'fido]

Alternative but unlikely reason: When you are wearing your seat belt as you must do on all DOD facilities, it tended to cover up the CAP on the blue epaulet so that all that could be seen was the rank. Many a gate guard probably thought that they were dealing with a RM officer instead of a CAP senior member. I do know of an instance where this happened but I will leave it to Redfox24 to tell that war story.