Flight Officer Grade

[afgeo4]

^ Now that they list cadet grade in e-services,  they can easily do it for FO's.  No reason they should not, and they should print it on the membership card. 

Cadet grade had nothing to do with it, ever. They could have listed FO grades just the same as all other officer grades. They simply chose not to.

Now I know there aren't that many FO's out there, but I'll bet there are more than BrigGen and MajGen and C/Col... and they all have proper insignia, in metal, cloth, and plastic (save for C/Col). Flight officers are in their grades for up to 3 years which is probably longer than the average length of continuous service with our new senior members. I think we need to pay more attention to those who are the future of our organization.

[Hawk200]

^ Now that they list cadet grade in e-services,  they can easily do it for FO's.  No reason they should not, and they should print it on the membership card. 

.......
Now I know there aren't that many FO's out there, but I'll bet there are more than BrigGen and MajGen and C/Col... .....Flight officers are in their grades for up to 3 years which is probably longer than the average length of continuous service with our new senior members. I think we need to pay more attention to those who are the future of our organization.

I'd have to second that. More FO's than generals, and the generals serve for a shorter period than FO's do (usually).

[DNall]

IIRC, it's 3mos to FO, 9 to TFO, 18 to SFO. Then you get screwed in the conversion to Capt cause they didn't program the chart right for combination of TIG.

The idea there WAS that FOs serve short periods like cadets (and LTs) AND it's a low number, so doesn't ned to be tracked. Now that we're tracking cadets, that argument is out of the water. FO grades do need to be tracked. AND, the IG chart needs to say at 21 the promotion is based on total TIS as a SM.

[RiverAux]

It will cost more to produce insigina for FOs, but that isn't really a problem for Vanguard.  All they have to do is charge more for the item to make up the difference.  Shouldn't be a big deal. 

However, if there is something they won't produce.  Be vocal about it.  The CAP leadership may or may not know there is a problem.  Send an email up your chain of command.  Since that will probably get lost and since there isn't a real "legal" way to bypass chain of command on such issues, I would send a question to the CAP knowledgebase saying:
"Vanguard doesn't make the piece of rank insignia I need, what other manufacturers make the authorized item?"  NHQ may not know the answer, but they will have been notified that it is an issue. 

[DNall]

Or advocate for the overthrow the the tyrannical regime... j/k, figure if we're going to look like South American generals with all our crazy insignia & we might as well overthrow the govt just as often. 

[JayT]

http://www.thehock.com/shop/index.php?rec=20&shop=1&cart=573565&cat=19&keywords=&match_criteria=&searchCat=

"Senior Grade FO Blue Epaulettes, pr (old style)"

[Pylon]

http://www.thehock.com/shop/index.php?rec=20&shop=1&cart=573565&cat=19&keywords=&match_criteria=&searchCat=

"Senior Grade FO Blue Epaulettes, pr (old style)"

Yeah, and those aren't worn on any uniform right now.

The CSU shirt uses blue shouldermarks without the "CAP", and the CSU jacket and outerwear utilize metal pin-on grade (which doesn't exist for FO's). The AF-style shirt, jacket and outerwear all use the grey shouldermarks with the "CAP".

Those would be good for a shadowbox for someone who was a FO back in the "blue CAP epaulet" days.

[jimmydeanno]

Bringing up an old topic, just to note availability of FO Grade Insignia:

Per Vanguard's Website:

MESS DRESS SHOULDER BOARDS.  These come in two parts for FO's, the blank board and the appropriate bullion insignia is sold separately. (Solves the low quantity issue.)

Side Note:  Don't feel like shelling out $33.00 for new shoulder boards when you get promoted?  Call up Vanguard and have them sell you the bullion separately.  They are attached with glue, peel them off and fabric glue the new one on, you can't even tell afterwards.

CAP1005L: Female Blank Shoulder Board
CAP1005M: Male Blank Shoulder Board

CAP1004S: Flight Officer Bullion (Pair)
CAP1004T: Technical Flight Officer Bullion (Pair)
CAP1004U: Senior Flight Officer Bullion (Pair)

GREY EPAULET SLEEVES:

CAP0747L: Flight Officer
CAP0747QA: Technical Flight Officer
CAP0747N: Senior Flight Officer

BLUE EPAULET SLEEVES: Non-existant on website.

ULTRAMARINE BLUE EMBROIDERED INSIGNIA:

CAP0744B: Flight Officer
CAP0744A: Technical Flight Officer
CAP0744: Senior Flight Officer

NAVY BLUE EMBROIDERED INSIGNIA:

CAP0744BA: Flight Officer
CAP0744AA: Technical Flight Officer
CAP07440: Senior Flight Officer

GORTEX PARKA SLIDES:

Not available on website.

So it looks like they're almost there...

[DNall]

They or the Hock should be able to do the gortex slides pretty easy. They're already have the blanks for the the other grades. It's just a matter of embroidery. That's also something you could do yourself if need be with a cloth grade & cutout.

I would think vanguard could do the blue slides for CSU (white shirt/blue pants) as well, but that may be more of an issue. The one item you didn't mention is metal grade for CSU service coat. That'll be a problem to get done.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

The one item you didn't mention is metal grade for CSU service coat. That'll be a problem to get done.

1Lt, masking tape, correct color nail polish. This wouls have the advantage of adding the additionl stripes

[DNall]

I think that's mentioned earlier in the thread. Shame it has to come to that.

[mmouw]

I agree that it is a shame for measures like stated above. I know one could get creative and make their own, but why? I guess I don't understand why Vanguard has items on their website (with photos) and not have made them or keep them in stock. I recently ordered my IC badge for both blues and BDUs. It amazes me that they have the metal insignia and not the embroidered. I would think it would be easier to make the embroidered.

One other issue that I think is important to address is that National doesn't notate FO grades on ID cards or on line. If we are entering cadets achievements on line and tracking their grade, why not for FOs? In fact most folks I meet with my wife in uniform, think she is a cadet or don't understand what the grade is (which raises some interesting questions from time to time). One person told us the FOs aren't cadets and are not senior members, so what does that mean??? I know that FOs are senior members and considered officers, but I wish that National would rectify the problems that exist. At the very least, ensure that uniform items are available for ALL Grades!!!!!!

[DNall]

FO tracking: Also addressed earlier in the thread. Agreed.

And, that's what you get for being a mean ole cradle robber. jk!!!  I know what you mean. I came up the FO route when I first came in. I paid for it a long time & it sucked.

The best solution I've heard is convert FO grades to Amn/A1C/SrA. Those aren't currently used in the CAP NCO system, yada yada, it's in another thread somewhere.

IC: The make the metal for approval, never do a sample of the embroidered, so it never gets done, just put on a list of lots of other things they need to do.

[JoeTomasone]

What I don't understand is why we can't treat an under 21 Senior Member as we do for a Senior Member OVER 21.   If you are not a former cadet officer, you become SMWOG and promote as normal.

The way we do it now is too confusing, and, as stated in this thread, impractical in certain circumstances.

Why do we need the FO grades at all?   

[MIKE]

Here we go again... A discussion on availability of grade insignia drifts into relevance of the grades.

[JoeTomasone]

Here we go again... A discussion on availability of grade insignia drifts into relevance of the grades.

I see them as related.  If they aren't properly supported, why have them?

[DNall]

Here we go again... A discussion on availability of grade insignia drifts into relevance of the grades.

Actually, this discussion all along has been about all things FO. If someone just wanted to know where to find hard to find insignia, it'd be a two post thread & no one would care. This is about the frustrations of FO-ness, spring-boarding from the simple obvious uniform issue. You have to let people rant a little and get their frustrations & ideas off their chest. That's more important to the health & well-being of CAP than any amount of "best practices" discussion could ever be.

[JayT]

What I don't understand is why we can't treat an under 21 Senior Member as we do for a Senior Member OVER 21.   If you are not a former cadet officer, you become SMWOG and promote as normal.

The way we do it now is too confusing, and, as stated in this thread, impractical in certain circumstances.

Why do we need the FO grades at all?   

How is it confusing, exactly?

[Major Carrales]

What I don't understand is why we can't treat an under 21 Senior Member as we do for a Senior Member OVER 21.   If you are not a former cadet officer, you become SMWOG and promote as normal.

The way we do it now is too confusing, and, as stated in this thread, impractical in certain circumstances.

Why do we need the FO grades at all?   

How is it confusing, exactly?

When my cousin joined CAP with me back in 1998, he was 20, they made him a SMWOG and he promoted all the way to 1st Lt (which I think he did right after this 21st Birthday.)

Personnally, I think the "Flight Officer" grades really serve no purpose for those that "join off the street."  That is, if the FO grades are meant for transition purposes.  Furthermore, if that is so...the FO grades would be almost liek a "punsihment" for a cadet who transitions.

I'm inclined to believe that the FO grade do nothing more that create the "artificial" situation where all CAP Officers are Over 21.  Seems a bit discriminatory and disheartening, especially when a 20 year old "ball of energy," who wil likely give the organization 40 years of service, joins and is told they cannot be CAP Officers.

Still, if it is the rule of the organization, to be it.

[arajca]

IIRC, big blue doesn't want under-21 yo officers as a rule. Yes, there have been exceptions, but they are few and far between. And the circumstances that apply to them do not apply to CAP members. So, since you can't join as a cadet if you're over 18, they needed something...hence the Flight Officer grades.