Flight Officer Grade

[JayT]

WOW!!! Ok so I just called Vanguard about this problem, they told me they would now order the grade to be manufactured since someone has requested it. This is the mess dress boards and the gortex tabs.

So we will get them only if you really want them! One would think if you make it they will buy it.

Hmm, when I asked them, they hung up on me after telling me my rank doesn't exist.

[mmouw]

Well in 2-3 months they said you will have gortex tabs and mess dress boards.

[SSgt Rudin]

Well in 2-3 months they said you will have gortex tabs and mess dress boards.

Well, as far as the gortex tab you could always do what it seems c/officers have to do... buy a blank one and sew the rank you need on there.

[SAR-EMT1]

WOW!!! Ok so I just called Vanguard about this problem, they told me they would now order the grade to be manufactured since someone has requested it. This is the mess dress boards and the gortex tabs.

So we will get them only if you really want them! One would think if you make it they will buy it.

I will believe it when I see it. I was a FO/TFO/SFO once. I called Vanguard a half million times and I didnt get crap.

[Gunner C]

Here's a thought - keep FO, TFO, SFO but use the old USAF (same as Navy) WO bars.  We'd still have FOs but there would be actual rank insignia to use.

GC

[SSgt Rudin]

Here's a thought - keep FO, TFO, SFO but use the old USAF (same as Navy) WO bars.  We'd still have FOs but there would be actual rank insignia to use.

GC

That wont work, it makes sense.

[JayT]

Here's a thought - keep FO, TFO, SFO but use the old USAF (same as Navy) WO bars.  We'd still have FOs but there would be actual rank insignia to use.

GC

I think CAP Warrant Officers did wear them at some point.

I don't care if they call me a Warrant Officer or a Flight Officer, as long as I have uniform insignia.

[jpnelson82]

try the hock shop, they're expensive but you can get the FO insignia your wife desires.

http://www.thehock.com/shop/?shop=1&cart=566951&cat=33&;

[afgeo4]

The Hock doesn't list GORTEX Flight Officer grades as available and doesn't list the mess dress female boards either. However, it seems that they may have the male mess dress flight officer boards. Odd.

I also agree with the posters who support the "I don't care if there's only one, make the [darn] insignia as a sign of respect" ideal.

However, Vanguard cannot be made to eat the costs of having to produce insignia even though there aren't many people there to sell it to. They're a business. I think CAP (NHQ) should eat that cost. They're our members, our concern.

[JayT]

The Hock doesn't list GORTEX Flight Officer grades as available and doesn't list the mess dress female boards either. However, it seems that they may have the male mess dress flight officer boards. Odd.

I also agree with the posters who support the "I don't care if there's only one, make the [darn] insignia as a sign of respect" ideal.

However, Vanguard cannot be made to eat the costs of having to produce insignia even though there aren't many people there to sell it to. They're a business. I think CAP (NHQ) should eat that cost. They're our members, our concern.

Yeah, well, the money they loss selling proper insignia to FO/TFO/SFO can be made up by those blank shoulder marks they sell.

[mikeylikey]

If Vanguard can't produce these items within the next month, then NHQ should allow other suppliers to operate without threat of lawsuit.  This is not a Vanguard problem and not their fault.  It is strictly a NHQ problem.  They failed us on this issue, and should do whats right here. 

[JayT]

If Vanguard can't produce these items within the next month, then NHQ should allow other suppliers to operate without threat of lawsuit.  This is not a Vanguard problem and not their fault.  It is strictly a NHQ problem.  They failed us on this issue, and should do whats right here. 

I disagree. It's Vanguard and NHQ's problem.

How long as the ECWCS parka been authorized?

How long has the DFU cap with 'Metal or embroided grade insignia' been authorized?

How long has Mess Dress been authroized?

How long has the CSU been authroized?

So, we need to have ECWCS tabs produced, mess shoulder boards, and metal insignia. Even if we adopt the old Air Force WO insignia, they still won't be readily aviable.

It's Nationals fault for producing regs without paying attention to whats in them, and it's Vanguards fault for not reading them and adjusting their production line.

[jimmydeanno]

It's Nationals fault for producing regs without paying attention to whats in them, and it's Vanguards fault for not reading them and adjusting their production line.

You obviously aren't in the manufacturing business, vanguard doesn't care about our CAPM 39-1, they care about what they are contracted to manufacture.  This isn't Vanguards problem what so ever.  They are not going to start producing things without a specific order from CAPNHQ to do so.  I'm sure you could call them and they be willing to do a custom embroidery job for you, but without specific direction they aren't going to include it in their normal product line.

Vanguards responsibility is to produce a product to the specifications that NHQ tells them to as per the specific contract they have, this includes fabric, colors, etc. 

Our contract manufacturers (where I work) do not produce anything for us unless we specifically tell them to.  Even then they have minimum quantities that we MUST order to justify them setting up the production line.  If we do single units the cost goes up greatly (sometimes 5 fold).

If you have an issue, call the Vanguard liason at CAP NHQ and hash it out with them.

[mikeylikey]

^ I agree Jimmy.....it is a NHQ blunder. 

NHQ really let the ball slip over the years in regard to uniforms and insignia. 

[Gunner C]

Here's a thought - keep FO, TFO, SFO but use the old USAF (same as Navy) WO bars.  We'd still have FOs but there would be actual rank insignia to use.

GC

I think CAP Warrant Officers did wear them at some point.

I don't care if they call me a Warrant Officer or a Flight Officer, as long as I have uniform insignia.

They did.  I was one of them.  I was a CWO before becoming a 1st Lt (back in the mid-70s).  I still have my field jacket with the W4 bars and droopy observer wings on it.  AAMOF, the old USAAF warrant officers were called flight officers.  Two I can think of were Chuck Yeager and Clark Gable.

GC

[JayT]

Here's a thought - keep FO, TFO, SFO but use the old USAF (same as Navy) WO bars.  We'd still have FOs but there would be actual rank insignia to use.

GC

I think CAP Warrant Officers did wear them at some point.

I don't care if they call me a Warrant Officer or a Flight Officer, as long as I have uniform insignia.

They did.  I was one of them.  I was a CWO before becoming a 1st Lt (back in the mid-70s).  I still have my field jacket with the W4 bars and droopy observer wings on it.  AAMOF, the old USAAF warrant officers were called flight officers.  Two I can think of were Chuck Yeager and Clark Gable.

GC

During WWII, Flight Officers were pilots who didn't have a college education.

[TmanF22]

I was just promoted from TFO and I was told by my Wing commander that is was OK to sew it directly on the tab if no slip was available. (I never cought any flack for it even in other states.)

Hope that helps.

[davedove]

It's Nationals fault for producing regs without paying attention to whats in them, and it's Vanguards fault for not reading them and adjusting their production line.

You obviously aren't in the manufacturing business, vanguard doesn't care about our CAPM 39-1, they care about what they are contracted to manufacture.  This isn't Vanguards problem what so ever.  They are not going to start producing things without a specific order from CAPNHQ to do so.  I'm sure you could call them and they be willing to do a custom embroidery job for you, but without specific direction they aren't going to include it in their normal product line.

Vanguards responsibility is to produce a product to the specifications that NHQ tells them to as per the specific contract they have, this includes fabric, colors, etc. 

That's it exactly, Vanguard will only do what they are required to do by the contract.  If it's Vanguard's call about when they produce an item, something is wrong with the contract.  It should have been written so that any CAP needs for required items would be produced, no matter how small the need.

If Vanguard is the only authorized supplier of rank insignia, and CAP has a need for the FO insignia, the contract should have been written so that Vanguard has to supply it.  If the contract was written poorly, that NHQ's fault.

I don't know the specifics of the contract, so I can't tell whether it's being fulfilled, but I would bet you that Vanguard has a fair amount of experience with this and they are following the letter of the contract.

[mmouw]

This raises another concern with Flight Officers. National lists their IDs in regard to grade as SM. This gives an idea of the lack of concern to the FOs out there. The progression of grade with the FOs is similar to 2Lt. and 1Lt. I know it is not exact, but close. So if that is the case, why not recognize them for their current grade by putting it on their ID cards? Other tan integrity, what is to keep them from jumping ahead on grade early. We have no way to verify one on one.

[mikeylikey]

^ Now that they list cadet grade in e-services,  they can easily do it for FO's.  No reason they should not, and they should print it on the membership card.