Flight Officer Grade

[mmouw]

My wife recently joined CAP. Because of her age she joined as a flight officer. When getting her uniforms ready we ordered her grade for BDUs and blues. We also ordered her mess dress boards. I received a credit from Vanguard yesterday for the add on bullion insignia. They don't make them anymore. Then looking for the gortex tab, they don't make any of the flight officer grades for the gortex.

This is sad. I know there isn't a lot of FOs out there but if it is a current grade then I think Vanguard should have to make the appropriate insignia for all members. We spent a bunch of money getting her mess dress together because Vanguard had the grade listed with the other mess dress boards. So know she has a mess dress that looks great, but not grade on it.

Does anyone out there have any bullion FO grades for the mess dress?

[isuhawkeye]

TO be honest I dont think that they have ever made a complete line of FO insignia

[Pylon]

I know they may have never actually made the mess dress insignia due to prohibitive cost for such a small run, but there is no excuse for why they can't make the Goretex tab.  Additionally, you'll also find they don't carry any FO insignia for the flight suit nor any insignia (blue epaulets nor metal pin on) for the corporate service uniform.

Basically, she'll have to ride out our supplier's negligence until she gets promoted.  You're right, it's a real grade.  But unfortunately they don't view it as important.  I don't buy the "well, they're such a small group, we can't afford to make it!"

There are a lot less Major Generals and Brigadier Generals in CAP than there are FO's.  But I bet you'll find that the CAP Generals have a full line of insignia... mess dress boards, epaulets, plastic-encased insignia, Goretex tabs, embroidered on ultramarine and dark blue, etc.

[ColonelJack]

There are a lot less Major Generals and Brigadier Generals in CAP than there are FO's.  But I bet you'll find that the CAP Generals have a full line of insignia... mess dress boards, epaulets, plastic-encased insignia, Goretex tabs, embroidered on ultramarine and dark blue, etc.

Not only do they have 'em ... you can buy 'em.  And there are a lot more flight officers in CAP than there are general officers.

Jack

[Gunner C]

There are a lot less Major Generals and Brigadier Generals in CAP than there are FO's.  But I bet you'll find that the CAP Generals have a full line of insignia... mess dress boards, epaulets, plastic-encased insignia, Goretex tabs, embroidered on ultramarine and dark blue, etc.

Not only do they have 'em ... you can buy 'em.  And there are a lot more flight officers in CAP than there are general officers.

Jack

To me, it points to a larger problem:  CAP doesn't do much to retain cadet officers after they turn 18.  We spend HUGE amounts of time training them but we get a very small number of them as officers.  CAP would be much better off if we retained them.

If we retained more of the former cadet officers, there would be more demand for flight officer insignia. More demand, Vanguard would have the insignia available. 

GC

[CASH172]

If we retained more of the former cadet officers, there would be more demand for flight officer insignia. 

But what incentive, other than CD missions, is there for a cadet to want to switch over before he/she legally had to. 

[SJFedor]

If we retained more of the former cadet officers, there would be more demand for flight officer insignia. 

But what incentive, other than CD missions, is there for a cadet to want to switch over before he/she legally had to. 

I was happier in the operations circle then I was in the cadet programs circle. It's easier to be involved on the ops side of the house as a FO/TFO/SFO then it was to be a C/1st Lt or C/Capt.

[ColonelJack]

Regardless of perceived need, the flight officer grades are a part of CAP and Vanguard is duty-bound to provide insignia for them.  CAP closes off any and (just about) all other possible providers, so unless The Hock has something we don't know about ... it's either Vanguard or nothing.

If NHQ can't convince Vanguard to make FO/TFO/SFO grades in the same choices they make officer grade insignia, then perhaps we should do one of two things:

1.  Ask AF if we can re-designate our Flight Officer grades as Warrant Officers, since such grades are readily available, or ...
2.  Do away with flight officer grades completely.  (No, I don't know what we'd replace them with.)

Jack

[Eclipse]

Are any of the insignia from the academies or ROTC's close enough for re-purpose?

[AlphaSigOU]

Are any of the insignia from the academies or ROTC's close enough for re-purpose?

USAFA grade insignia (both the Zoo and the Preppies) are too distinctive for any other organization to use. Ditto with the grades for Canoe U and the South Hudson Institute for Wayward Children. (That's Annapolis and West Point for the humorless...  .)

Certain AFROTC cadet officer shoulder marks (C/2d Lt - C/Capt - C/Lt Col) are identical to CAP FO grade except that the shoulder marks are black, not blue or gray.

Maybe the Army's W-1 through W-3, but the CAP and AF FGOs may take exception to the piping at the base of the shoulder mark. (Unless we get a batch custom made.)

[Pylon]

Are any of the insignia from the academies or ROTC's close enough for re-purpose?

If NHQ can't convince Vanguard to make FO/TFO/SFO grades in the same choices they make officer grade insignia, then perhaps we should do one of two things:

1.  Ask AF if we can re-designate our Flight Officer grades as Warrant Officers, since such grades are readily available, or ...

We simply can't commandeer someone else's grade insignia, since we'd need a lot of special incarnations specific to CAP such as full color embroidered on ultramarine blue and dark blue, CAP goretex tabs, miniature metal pins for blazer nameplate, a shoddy plastic encased version for the flight suit, metal pin-on for the CSU, embroidered on grey epaulets with "CAP" for the AF-style dress uniforms, embroidered on blue for the corporate dress shirt, bullion for the mess dress boards...  nobody else is likely to have 1/3 of that already available.

CAP simply needs to direct Vanguard to suck it up and make the stuff.  Flight officers have been going without appropriate insignia for years.  I can't imagine that over the years, our suppliers couldn't have tinkered away and done one big lot of epaulets, then one big lot of bullion, and one big lot of plastic encased so that in a few years the whole line would be available. 

As I said above, there are a heck of a lot more FO/TFO/SFO's in CAP, then there are Maj Gen and Brig Gen's.  Since Vanguard found it in their budget to produce the complete line of necessary CAP general officers' insignia and still charge about the same prices (as available on the website), there's no excuse for lack of FO insignia. 

The CAP general officer's should be setting the example by ensuring the membership at large have what they need first.

[Eclipse]

Certain AFROTC cadet officer shoulder marks (C/2d Lt - C/Capt - C/Lt Col) are identical to CAP FO grade except that the shoulder marks are black, not blue or gray.

Right, so then at least the bullion insignia could be used for mess dress, and we know that someone has the pattern and might make them on different backing.

Most could be done as a (fairly) inexpensive walk-in job at the average embroidery shop.

[MIKE]

AFROTC POC insignia isn't close enough for my liking.

I think you do need to look at the number of serving flight officers versus those of CGOs though, as it is now they are glorified "senior members" for a three year period at most.

[Flying Pig]

If we retained more of the former cadet officers, there would be more demand for flight officer insignia. 

But what incentive, other than CD missions, is there for a cadet to want to switch over before he/she legally had to. 

In this particular case.....it looks like she got married.

I think most former cadets move on for a while, then come back to CAP later in their lives.

[kpetersen]

If we retained more of the former cadet officers, there would be more demand for flight officer insignia. 

But what incentive, other than CD missions, is there for a cadet to want to switch over before he/she legally had to. 

In this particular case.....it looks like she got married.

I think most former cadets move on for a while, then come back to CAP later in their lives.

I think in this particular case, i think his wife was a non-member (prior to being "his wife"), got married, then became a CAP member.  Tell her welcome to the organization!

[Cecil DP]

CAP simply needs to direct Vanguard to suck it up and make the stuff.  Flight officers have been going without appropriate insignia for years.  I can't imagine that over the years, our suppliers couldn't have tinkered away and done one big lot of epaulets, then one big lot of bullion, and one big lot of plastic encased so that in a few years the whole line would be available. 

I thought when CAP closed the Bookstore and gave the contract to Vanguard, there was a commitment to carry all CAP insignia. Otherwise why give them the contract?

[SARMedTech]

Regardless of perceived need, the flight officer grades are a part of CAP and Vanguard is duty-bound to provide insignia for them.  CAP closes off any and (just about) all other possible providers, so unless The Hock has something we don't know about ... it's either Vanguard or nothing.

If NHQ can't convince Vanguard to make FO/TFO/SFO grades in the same choices they make officer grade insignia, then perhaps we should do one of two things:

1.  Ask AF if we can re-designate our Flight Officer grades as Warrant Officers, since such grades are readily available, or ...
2.  Do away with flight officer grades completely.  (No, I don't know what we'd replace them with.)

Jack

While I like the Warrant Officer idea, I think Momma Blue would have a fit if we tried to put back WO grades. I even think that there could be a use for WO grades for SM's working their way up to LT grades, but that is for another thread and I dont want to be the reason this thread gets hammered shut.

[Pylon]

I thought when CAP closed the Bookstore and gave the contract to Vanguard, there was a commitment to carry all CAP insignia. Otherwise why give them the contract?

Perhaps, but Vanguard makes nothing without NHQ telling them to make it.  Example:  military badges are authorized in white on ultramarine.  CAP members have called dozens of times, pointed out that they're authorized for CAP, and gotten the same response: no. 

There are tons of things besides all the FO insignia which are authorized but Vanguard will not provide, since NHQ has not supplied the impetus.  Take for example the Eaker mini-medal.  It still isn't available after over a decade.  People have cited costs such as creating dies to strike the medals as prohibitive; yet the National Commanders Unit Citation had a miniature medal available within months of its creation.  Another example?  The miniature GT badge and IC badge went from concept to die creation to production to retail availability in record time of less than a few months when NHQ wanted it to happen.

NHQ regularly leaves out provisions for female versions when creating and modifying uniforms - the new corporate service dress was a perfect example; there's still areas they haven't bothered to put together for females, such as the semi-formal option.  NHQ also took a year or two before they authorized any outerwear for the uniform, demonstrating a long-time standing effort to forget members in climates colder than Montgomery.  How many years was the Goretex available before CAP asked for it to be authorized (and summarily forgot the pants and the rest of the ECWS system?).  NHQ also regularly forgets to figure out how the NCO version of uniforms should be configured, leaving large swaths of "gray area" in the uniform closet for CAP NCOs for stretches of time.

It's all what NHQ thinks it important.  Some things are not important to NHQ (flight officers, former cadet officers, NCOs, females), thus they don't get done on the same timeline as uniforms for those who are approving them (male senior member officers).

[Psicorp]

If we retained more of the former cadet officers, there would be more demand for flight officer insignia. 

But what incentive, other than CD missions, is there for a cadet to want to switch over before he/she legally had to. 

In this particular case.....it looks like she got married.

I think most former cadets move on for a while, then come back to CAP later in their lives.

I know it's gotten a little better from the days when I was a Cadet Officer, but way back when there was a huge disparigy between how Senior Members treated a 20 year old Senior Member versus how a 20 year old Cadet Officer was treated. 

Of course, there are some individuals who don't perform well in the Cadet Program and switch to Senior Member status and suddenly they're big adult Senior Members in the eyes of the Cadets.   Thankfully these individuals are a tiny minority of those who do switch over to the "Dark Side".

[mmouw]

WOW!!! Ok so I just called Vanguard about this problem, they told me they would now order the grade to be manufactured since someone has requested it. This is the mess dress boards and the gortex tabs.

So we will get them only if you really want them! One would think if you make it they will buy it.