Uniform Changes

[JohnKachenmeister]

a.  Sewn-on black epaulets, black sleeve braid for officers, and a black belt.  Metal rank will be worn on the epaulet.

The epaulets and metal rank I like. The other stuff I would consider a bit drastic. Go with simple. 

b.  "U.S." cutouts on the upper lapel, 5/8" above the lapel notch; and "C.A.P." cutouts on the lower lapel, 5/8" below the notch.

Seems a little much. If you're going to go with heritage, I'd put CAP discs on the lower lapel like was worn on old Army Air Corps uniforms used by CAP.

c.  The AHCU will be worn with a white shirt and AF blue tie.  The white shirt will have new black epaulets, identical to the former gray ones except for the color.

Stick with blue shirts, you can buy them in any AF military clothing. Again, keep it simple.

d.  All CAP members will wear a shoulder-seam "Rocker" on each sleeve.  Officers will wear rockers which read:  "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary" and cadets will wear "Civil Air Patrol Cadet"  All rockers will be black with silver lettering.

Seems a little much, as well. A rocker on one side I could handle. Use a single rocker design, no reason that a cadet should have to change it once they go senior. Transition should be a matter of changing rank insignia, and to ribbons permitted for prior cadet seniors.

e.  Buttons will feature the tri-prop CAP emblem.

Like it.

Award ribbons from the military may be worn on this uniform, and badges from the US and foreign military may be worn on the right side, provided that the wearer has a corresponding CAP badge on the left.

Like being able to keep my military awards and decs. However, I would keep US military badges on the left side. I don't even have CAP badges, under this stipulation, I wouldn't be able to wear my military ones. Like the allowance for foreign badges, but we'd need to have a list of allowable ones.

Remember, Hawk, (and others) I planned this to be a Corporate uniform.  There HAS to be significant variances from the AF uniform.  Just not so many that we look like we should be singing the songs from "HMS Pinnafore."

As far as the sew-on rockers, one or two are a max nix.  The idea of changing rockers when one turns senior is another hark back to our heritage, when we used to have sew-on insignia to designate CAP membership.  Seniors had the "Pepsi-Cola" patch, and cadets had a blue rectangle reading "Cadet/Civil Air Patrol"

[JohnKachenmeister]

Maybe we can get the AF to allow the medal rank with the CAP cutpouts and the CAP silver name tag on the AF service coat. But this would still not allow those members who do not meet the weight standards to wear the AF uniform. I remember when we wore the AF uniform service coat with the black army like name tag, the medal rank & CAP/USAF aux badge and wing patches.

That's why its the Hap Arnold Heritage CORPORATE Uniform.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Just a  thought:  As a retired AF officer, I am authorized to wear an AF uniform regardless of my height/weight; however, as a current CAP officer, I can pick whatever combination suits my fancy and is in accordance with height/weight restrictions. 


Aux on/Aux off

Sir, what does that have to do with anything?

A lot. It points out the difference of being permitted to wear something without weight restrictions as a retired officer of the AF, but limited to certain combinations in CAP. A pretty powerful point. And probably one that bears further scrutiny.

Also, State Defense Forces with an Air Guard element wear the Air Force uniform regardless of height/weight.

[jb512]

Another uniform discussion?  No...

On topic:

1.  American flag - Keep it.  It's not hurting anybody, and it's not expensive.  It also adds an extra flair to the NASCAR-like, colorful look of our duty uniform.  While we're at it, let's authorize patches for the bottom pockets, upper sleeves, lower sleeves, sides, and a big Budweiser bowtie in the middle of the back.  Once those spots are filled, we can start working down the legs of the pants.

2.  TPU - Keep it for the fat/fuzzies.  Yeah, it's expensive, but that's the side-effect.  At least that's one standard that we have.

[JayT]

Just a  thought:  As a retired AF officer, I am authorized to wear an AF uniform regardless of my height/weight; however, as a current CAP officer, I can pick whatever combination suits my fancy and is in accordance with height/weight restrictions. 


Aux on/Aux off

Sir, what does that have to do with anything?

A lot. It points out the difference of being permitted to wear something without weight restrictions as a retired officer of the AF, but limited to certain combinations in CAP. A pretty powerful point. And probably one that bears further scrutiny.

Civil Air Patrol is not the Air Force through. When a member joins, be then an ex Marine Sergeant or an Air Force officer, they work and play by our rules. If the Air Force wants to let their retirees (who, of course, have contributed a lot to the service) wear the uniform regardless of weight standards, thats the Air Force rules. If our regulations say you can't then you can't.

[ZigZag911]

Kach & Hawk,

I gotta go with Sparky on this one...the black epaulets & insignia are definitely a non-starter!

Have you ever seen a CAP mess dress uniform? The midnight blue (or are they black?) epaulets look AWFUL!

Back to the drawing board, gents!

Good concept, lousy color scheme!

[jb512]

Post one more time, ZigZag....

[ZigZag911]

Already did!

By the way, can we get a discussion going about introducing the rank of "Corporal-Captain" (like Hawkeye gave Radar on MASH to sneak him into an O Club!)

[jb512]

Congrats on 1000!

Just do it the same way.  Take off one of your blings, attach it to a Corporal, and there ya go.  When someone asks, just tell them it's a wear-test.  We have enough members doing their own wear-testing of new combinations of uniforms/insignia already, so it should fit right in.

[Eagle400]

Already did!

By the way, can we get a discussion going about introducing the rank of "Corporal-Captain" (like Hawkeye gave Radar on MASH to sneak him into an O Club!)

Reminds me of this:

[JohnKachenmeister]

Kach & Hawk,

I gotta go with Sparky on this one...the black epaulets & insignia are definitely a non-starter!

Have you ever seen a CAP mess dress uniform? The midnight blue (or are they black?) epaulets look AWFUL!

Back to the drawing board, gents!

Good concept, lousy color scheme!

Actually, I liked the CAP shoulder boards better than the Air Force ones.  Matter of taste, I guess.

So... What color would be better?  If it were a REAL heritage uniform the epaulets and sleeve stripe would be bright red! Now THAT is a non-starter!

[Redbird Leader]

I guess I just threw a wrench into an already over done topic: Ref Retired AF vs Active CAP and uniform wear. 

Yes, I did my 20 years of active duty and am now allowed to wear the (strictly) AF uniform in spite of what body shape I am currently maintaining; but it seems a little ironic that I am not allowed to wear the AF Auxiliary (read AF style) uniform as a civilian. 
BTW, regarding the veteran status, I did my time in CAP before the AF, while in the AF, and have remained a member for the last 38 years.  (I'm thinking of making CAP a permanent hobby!)

[Hawk200]

Civil Air Patrol is not the Air Force through. When a member joins, be then an ex Marine Sergeant or an Air Force officer, they work and play by our rules. If the Air Force wants to let their retirees (who, of course, have contributed a lot to the service) wear the uniform regardless of weight standards, thats the Air Force rules. If our regulations say you can't then you can't.

You completely missed the point. Don't worry about it though, it doesn't matter.

[Hawk200]

Remember, Hawk, (and others) I planned this to be a Corporate uniform.  There HAS to be significant variances from the AF uniform.  Just not so many that we look like we should be singing the songs from "HMS Pinnafore."

As far as the sew-on rockers, one or two are a max nix.  The idea of changing rockers when one turns senior is another hark back to our heritage, when we used to have sew-on insignia to designate CAP membership.  Seniors had the "Pepsi-Cola" patch, and cadets had a blue rectangle reading "Cadet/Civil Air Patrol"

Point taken. I would prefer to keep an Air Force uniform around, I think it's a bad idea to ditch it altogether. There are organizations that aren't even directly affiliated with the various branches of service, or loosely so, that wear uniforms closer to the military. I think we ought to do the same. We do have heritage, but we shouldn't discard our association with the Air Force to bring it back.

I can say that even some branches of service can be confused for each other. I remember the first time I saw a Coastie in uniform. I just thought he was wearing some strange ribbons. If I hadn't noted the second line on his nametag stating "U.S. Coast Guard", I would have been thoroughly confused.

[JayT]

Civil Air Patrol is not the Air Force through. When a member joins, be then an ex Marine Sergeant or an Air Force officer, they work and play by our rules. If the Air Force wants to let their retirees (who, of course, have contributed a lot to the service) wear the uniform regardless of weight standards, thats the Air Force rules. If our regulations say you can't then you can't.

You completely missed the point. Don't worry about it though, it doesn't matter.

The point was that if the Air Force lets retired personnal who are overwight wear the regular uniform, so why shouldn't we?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Remember, Hawk, (and others) I planned this to be a Corporate uniform.  There HAS to be significant variances from the AF uniform.  Just not so many that we look like we should be singing the songs from "HMS Pinnafore."

As far as the sew-on rockers, one or two are a max nix.  The idea of changing rockers when one turns senior is another hark back to our heritage, when we used to have sew-on insignia to designate CAP membership.  Seniors had the "Pepsi-Cola" patch, and cadets had a blue rectangle reading "Cadet/Civil Air Patrol"

Point taken. I would prefer to keep an Air Force uniform around, I think it's a bad idea to ditch it altogether. There are organizations that aren't even directly affiliated with the various branches of service, or loosely so, that wear uniforms closer to the military. I think we ought to do the same. We do have heritage, but we shouldn't discard our association with the Air Force to bring it back.

I can say that even some branches of service can be confused for each other. I remember the first time I saw a Coastie in uniform. I just thought he was wearing some strange ribbons. If I hadn't noted the second line on his nametag stating "U.S. Coast Guard", I would have been thoroughly confused.

Hawk:

I agree with you.  The right to wear the Air Force uniform was earned in battle and is a part of our tradition.  But with our officer force getting older, it will be getting tougher and tougher for our officers to stay within the 10 percent over basic training entry weight that 39-1 prescribes for wear of the AF uniform.  My proposal would create a similar-to-the-AF-uniform that is sufficiently different to rate classification as a corporate uniform.

[ZigZag911]

Kach,

I've been puzzling over a better color combination myself...unfortunately "Post Office Blue" is such an odd shade, it's hard to match well with anything...maybe some of the more color coordinated artistic types can chime in with ideas here.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Civil Air Patrol is not the Air Force through. When a member joins, be then an ex Marine Sergeant or an Air Force officer, they work and play by our rules. If the Air Force wants to let their retirees (who, of course, have contributed a lot to the service) wear the uniform regardless of weight standards, thats the Air Force rules. If our regulations say you can't then you can't.

You completely missed the point. Don't worry about it though, it doesn't matter.

The point was that if the Air Force lets retired personnal who are overwight wear the regular uniform, so why shouldn't we?

No, his point is that the Air Force applies a standard to us that they do not apply to their own retirees and to the SDF air elements.

[jb512]

Civil Air Patrol is not the Air Force through. When a member joins, be then an ex Marine Sergeant or an Air Force officer, they work and play by our rules. If the Air Force wants to let their retirees (who, of course, have contributed a lot to the service) wear the uniform regardless of weight standards, thats the Air Force rules. If our regulations say you can't then you can't.

You completely missed the point. Don't worry about it though, it doesn't matter.

The point was that if the Air Force lets retired personnal who are overwight wear the regular uniform, so why shouldn't we?

Because we are an active organization with a mission (three missions).  When our members retire from CAP, then they can get fat and wear our uniforms.

[jb512]

Remember, Hawk, (and others) I planned this to be a Corporate uniform.  There HAS to be significant variances from the AF uniform.  Just not so many that we look like we should be singing the songs from "HMS Pinnafore."

As far as the sew-on rockers, one or two are a max nix.  The idea of changing rockers when one turns senior is another hark back to our heritage, when we used to have sew-on insignia to designate CAP membership.  Seniors had the "Pepsi-Cola" patch, and cadets had a blue rectangle reading "Cadet/Civil Air Patrol"

Point taken. I would prefer to keep an Air Force uniform around, I think it's a bad idea to ditch it altogether. There are organizations that aren't even directly affiliated with the various branches of service, or loosely so, that wear uniforms closer to the military. I think we ought to do the same. We do have heritage, but we shouldn't discard our association with the Air Force to bring it back.

I can say that even some branches of service can be confused for each other. I remember the first time I saw a Coastie in uniform. I just thought he was wearing some strange ribbons. If I hadn't noted the second line on his nametag stating "U.S. Coast Guard", I would have been thoroughly confused.

Hawk:

I agree with you.  The right to wear the Air Force uniform was earned in battle and is a part of our tradition.  But with our officer force getting older, it will be getting tougher and tougher for our officers to stay within the 10 percent over basic training entry weight that 39-1 prescribes for wear of the AF uniform.  My proposal would create a similar-to-the-AF-uniform that is sufficiently different to rate classification as a corporate uniform.

The TPU is about as close as you can get to a RM uniform.  Change it to allow RM badges and ribbons, and we're set.