Uniform Changes

[NAYBOR]

Hawk, I say everyone in the present corporate uniforms then.  That way we'd all be uniform, and wouldn't have to worry about that.  The AF wouldn't have to worrying about "policing"us because we wouldn't be wearing any AF uniforms.  We'd have our uniform, and can start our own traditions.  The AF would stay involved in the uniform process because they have complete control over our wear of grade (but the not the color of epaulet).  This being said, I'm still all for remaining USAFX.  I just wish Big Blue would treat us like USCG treats the USCGA. 

Gray looks like a$$ in any combo with blue as far as I'm concerned.  Plain and simple.  I like wearing hard rank again, too, not because I want to "look" like a military officer (I already am one), but because I am proud to wear my rank as a CAP OFFICER, that has an important job to do for America.  I like to look good doing it.  Gray doesn't do that for me.

I have the AF service dress with gray epaulets now.  I really thought I could live with it (the gray), that I didn't mind it so much.  I realize I was trying to kid myself.

I'll be happy once I get my corporate coat tailored and can wear that instead.  The windbreaker also looks really sharp with the CAP cutouts and hard rank on the epaulets with corporate blues combo.  That was a good idea.  I'd even be willing to move the CAP cutouts from the lapels of the corporate coat to the epaulets in the same way they are on the windbreaker.  That may even be an improvement to the corporate coat, I don't know.  It would definitely set the CAP officers apart from the AF officers--AF Officers don't wear any devices in the middle of their epaulets on the AF Service coat, and the CAP officers in corporate coats wouldn't have the devices on their lapels like AF officers do.  Doing that, the white shirt under the coat, and having the "reflective safety braid" on the cuffs would make CAP Officers clearly distinctive, even at a good distance, from AF Officers.

I don't want to look like an AF Officer.  I want to look like a professional, well dressed CAP officer.  Gray epaulets, in my opinion, falls short of the mark.  We have to wear them on the AF coat because the AF mandates that now.  Fine.  I can understand that and why.  But don't impose the same crap on our own corporate uniform.  I think, except for maybe a few slight tweaks, the CAP corporate service and utility uniforms are shapr and professional looking as they are now.

I am working and spending some money on a few ides I have to improve the corporate coat (not changing the coat itself, just some ideas for a "mess dress" and some insignia place changes) that, if it all comes together, I will submit up my chain of command for presentation to NHQ.  We'll see though.  I'm trying to have mockups of insignia being made now.

[Hawk200]

Hawk, I say everyone in corporates, then.  That way we'd all be uniform, and wouldn't have to worry about that.  The AF would stay invovled in the uniform process because they have complete control over our wear of grade. 

Gray looks like a$$ in any combo as far as I'm concerned.  Plain and simple.  I have the AF service dress with gray epaulets.  I'll be happy once I get my corporate coat tailored and can wear that instead.

It's not a matter of one uniform, it's a matter of cutting down on the excessive variations. If you're wearing the corporate dress because you don't like the grey slides, then you are making the effort to not be uniform. But then again, it's allowed. With our current uniform options, complete non-uniformity is fully permitted.

I don't like the corporates because I prefer to wear military awards and decs. Matter of fact, it's all I wear anymore. I just haven't bothered to pick up all the CAP ribbons, and I don't actually have any CAP badges. For me to go corporate means I would have to buy everything new. I don't feel that anyone has the right to force me to do that. And putting everyone in corporates would be doing just that.

To be blunt, this concept that everyone has to fit into one mold is really a little ridiculous. There is not a single [darn] reason why everybody should be forced into a single mold. Air Force uniforms and corporates can peacefully co-exist if people decide to let them. I'm only advocating eliminating excessive and confusing extremes. Different slides, and nametags, and insignia wear criteria for different uniforms of one organization is really kind of stupid, both in my viewpoint, and those of many others. Creating something to be different just because you can is really poor management.

[NAYBOR]

OK, yes, you are correct, Hawk.  No one should be forced to wear any one uniform.  Ergo my choosing to go to corporates.  I like them.  But saying grays should be worn on the corporates--uh-uh, that's a non sequitur for me!  It defeats (one of) the purpose(s) of the corporates then.  If we're to have uniform name tags, shoulder marks , etc, then I say we use blue epaulets (with CAP embroidered on them if need be), and the name tags worn with the present corporates (blue or silver) for ALL uniform combos.  Wear hard rank on the AF service coat like it used to be, with CAP either in the middle of the epaulet, or on the lapels. No gray, please!

Yes, wear whatever present uniform you want to, though, I say.  It's CAP for goodness sake!  We have a wide gamut of body shapes, experience, fuzzies, non-fuzzies, etc.  Each uniform for each need.  I agree--there's too many uniform combos.  But, so does the military, as I know you're aware, and our combos in CAP allow much more membership (for those who'd like to be in some kind of uniform), and allows that membership to get the mission done, looking good doing it, which is the ultimate goal.

I thought you were advocating everyone in "blue and grays", whatever combo you wear.  I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

[JayT]

Gentlemen

Except for this board, corporate and military style do exist peacefully side by side.

[NAYBOR]

Yes, I agree, they do, and should.  

I misunderstood Hawk is all.  This a gentlemanly (and healthy) discussion.  Where else can you respectfully voice you're opinions?  Hawk and I probably aren't as far off from our ideas as they may be perceived.  We're both ultimately here to get the job done.  Hawk's a good, respectable guy from what I've seen on this board, and a fellow officer.  Passionately discussing our opinions on CAP uniforms doesn't change that. 

[Hawk200]

I thought you were advocating everyone in "blue and grays", whatever combo you wear.  I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

No apologies necessary, there is nothing to forgive.

There was a time that I was ignorant enough to think that there should only be one uniform, and if you didn't fit into that one, tough. I've since realized that there is diversity.

However, with our uniforms there is excessive diversity. When I get a new member that comes to his or her Personnel Officer (yeah, that'd be me), and asks me what insignia he or she is going to need, it annoys me to have to ask: "What do you plan on wearing?" It is also irritating to have to explain over and over, ad nauseum, that if they change uniforms they need different insignia.

Personally, I don't like cadets wearing different color insignia that seniors. Take a group of CAP members all in blues on an Air Force base, and the cadets look more like Air Force members than the seniors. All the Air Force people think they're some kind of junior Academy cadet. It's a minor detail, but it gets irritating after awhile.

There's also the fact that a cadet turning senior has to buy a new nametag. Why? Yeah, it's just a cheap little nametag, but why should it have to be replaced in the first place?

You don't like grey. I can understand that. Unfortunately, there may be things about uniforms that we don't like, but have to accept. I don't like the way ACU's are made, but it's my designated uniform in the Army National Guard. I don't have the option. To establish some consistancy may require some sacrifices.

Personally, I don't mind the grey. Having a different color epaulette than Air Force officers means I get accused of impersonating one less often (It has actually happened a couple of times!). However, what do you think of black? I could go for it. Just have a matching black nametag to keep it somewhat color coordinated, and wear it across the board for all uniforms. Even an outsider notes little things like that more often than we realize. Having to read all the nametags to make sure we're the same organization is just not intelligent.

[NAYBOR]

I could see black across the board.  Not crazy about the idea, but it ain't gray, and it's what I wore as an AFRTOC cadet back in the day.  Do you think they'd allow Army shoulder marks?  Only 'cause they are black and readily available (and I have some already).  They have the gold piping on all of them, but that could also be a "distinctive" apsect of the mark for CAP.  It could also be touted as going back to CAP's "Army roots".  A CAP cutout can be pinned on them, I guess.  And AFROTC epaulets (C/2d LT, C/1st Lt, C/Capt) could be used for flight officer ranks with CAP cutouts on them.  However, I don't think "Big Blue" would go for mixing Army shoulder marks with distinctive AF uniforms for CAP.  Who knows though--it would be a simple fix that's readily available now.  Yeah, I could see that.  And black nametags is what CAP wore back in the day, too.  They could be brought back for all uniforms, I guess.

Yeah, I could see that...

What, you don't like the "digital PJ's" [ACU]?!!?!  I like the fact that you can change all of the insiginia with a "pull and rip".  A great idea, IMHO.  They are decently comfy, too.

That's where the liking stops, though.  They are affectionately known as the "ICU" where I come from ("I See You!").

[Hawk200]

I could see black across the board.  Not crazy about the idea, but it ain't gray, and it's what I wore as an AFRTOC cadet back in the day.  Do you think they'd allow Army shoulder marks?  Only 'cause they are black and readily available (and I have some already).  They have the gold piping on all of them, but that could also be a "distinctive" apsect of the mark for CAP.  It could also be touted as going back to CAP's "Army roots".  A CAP cutout can be pinned on them, I guess.  And AFROTC epaulets (C/2d LT, C/1st Lt, C/Capt) could be used for flight officer ranks with CAP cutouts on them.  However, I don't think "Big Blue" would go for mixing Army shoulder marks with distinctive AF uniforms for CAP.  Who knows though--it would be a simple fix that's readily available now.  Yeah, I could see that.  And black nametags is what CAP wore back in the day, too.  They could be brought back for all uniforms, I guess.

I don't see us using Army insignia, that would really be kind of lazy, and I have a feeling the Army might have issues with it. My idea would be taking the current grey epaulet slide, and make it black, with the embroidered "CAP" intact, and have the same silver end stripes as current for the field and flag officers. Just a color change.

Same with the current name tag with the "United States Air Force Auxiliary" and "Civil Air Patrol" on it as well. The silver nametags for service dress I would keep, but I would have the same one with "CIVIL AIR PATROL" on it worn on both uniforms. I would however put the "CIVIL AIR PATROL" below the name. It just doesn't look right above it to me.

Basically, black epaulettes on every uniform variation, cadets too. Silver nametag with the CAP line on all service dress, cadets included. Black nametag for all members, regardless of rank or status. When someone needs insignia, you tell them "You need 2LT epaulettes, a shirt/blouse nametag, a silver nametag and cutouts for your lapel if you're getting a service dress coat". No more of "Well, you'll need this if you're wearing this, but you need this if you wear this, but not if you wear that......etc." Apply the KISS principle.

And it might make it easier for whoever has the contract of the day to keep it all instock.

What, you don't like the "digital PJ's" [ACU]?!!?!  I like the fact that you can change all of the insiginia with a "pull and rip".  A great idea, IMHO.  They are decently comfy, too.

I don't like the cut of the uniform, it feels very strange after wearing BDU's for so long. I don't like "sticking to my buddy" either. Seems like I brush by someone, and the IFF cover strap catches on them. The chest pockets are completely worthless. I can barely put a wallet or a notepad in there. The pen pockets tend to be an annoyance on occasion, too.

It was convenient when I got my A2CU's though, I just slapped on my stuff, put them on. Was wearing within 30 mins of being issued them. Although the annoyances with those are a different story altogether.

[NAYBOR]

I was suggesting the Army shoulder marks because they're already made, and black.  I agree, though, I'd also like to see black CAP shoulder marks that are patterned the same as the current grays.  That'd be ideal.  I agree with all of the other ideas too if they had to be made.  Civil Air Patrol BELOW the name on name tags (I'm kinda fond of the new "U.S. Civil Air Patrol", to be honest, but whatever).  I think we would just need two-line name tags for all uniforms--one black 2-line, one silver (for the coats).

Personally, if we had to, yes, black would be the way to go for ALL uniforms, cadet or senior.  I completely agree with that.

However, I like the corporate blue uniforms how they are now, personally.  With some tweaks, if allowed.

Too bad we're not generals, huh?   

[JayT]

I have an idea.

How about cadets wear dark blue shoulder marks with mini insignia on the shirts and sweaters, metal insignia on the all weather coat and light weight jacket, and hard shoulderboards with metal rank on the full service jacket. This works will with existing items.

Senior Members can wear grey shouldermarks on all air force style uniforms, and the corporate unifroms too. Again, this work weel wit existing items.

Now, this is wear it gets confusing. Adopt the grey nameplate for everyone, on the shirt and sliver nameplate for all service jackets, corporate or otherwise.

Simple enough?

[Major Carrales]

Well said, Major C.!

Whether you wear AF-style, corporate blue or corporate gray doesn't make you any less of a member in my eyes. Just make sure you wear it properly.

Got a spare aviator shirt or two... want 'em? 

Honestly?!  Anything from down here in South Texas I could trade you for it?  

[JohnKachenmeister]

I mentioned this on another thread.  We have an opportunity to resolve this uniform debate once and for all.

The USAF is scrapping the "McPeak-3-Button" uniform.  They will shortly be going to what they choose to call the "Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform."  This is a 4-button, belted uniform, sort of an AF-Blue version of the World War II "Pinks and Greens."

So, give me your reaction to the following letter from some near-future National Commander:

To All CAP members:

As you know, the Air Force will be transitioning to the "Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform" over the next few years.  Hap Arnold was a central character in the formation of America's Air Force, and the Air Force's only 5-star general.  The impact of Arnold's vision is still felt today.  

Hap Arnold is an important part of CAP heritage, as well.  It was at Arnolds order that CAP was transfered to the Army Ar Corps as an auxiliary, and it was Arnold's idea to arm CAP planes with bombs and use them to attack enemy submarines off our coasts.  Our cadet program, designed to reduce attrittion of trainees in the aviation cadet programs, was also Arnold's idea.

Therefore, to parallel the Air Force's implementation of the Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform, CAP will be transitioning to the Hap Arnold Heritage Corporate Uniform over the next 5 years.  The Arnold Heritage Corporate Uniform (AHCU) will replace the AF-style uniform and the TPU during that phase-in time.

Features which differentiate the HACU from the Air Force's uniform are:

a.  Sewn-on black epaulets, black sleeve braid for officers, and a black belt.  Metal rank will be worn on the epaulet.

b.  "U.S." cutouts on the upper lapel, 5/8" above the lapel notch; and "C.A.P." cutouts on the lower lapel, 5/8" below the notch.

c.  The AHCU will be worn with a white shirt and AF blue tie.  The white shirt will have new black epaulets, identical to the former gray ones except for the color.

d.  All CAP members will wear a shoulder-seam "Rocker" on each sleeve.  Officers will wear rockers which read:  "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary" and cadets will wear "Civil Air Patrol Cadet"  All rockers will be black with silver lettering.

e.  Buttons will feature the tri-prop CAP emblem.

Since this is a corporate uniform, all personnel may wear it, regardless of physical fitness standards.  In order to maintain a professional image, guidance on grooming will follow in the next issue of CAPM 39-1.  Award ribbons from the military may be worn on this uniform, and badges from the US and foreign military may be worn on the right side, provided that the wearer has a corresponding CAP badge on the left.

This uniform is in keeping with the traditions of both the CAP and the Air Force, and celebrates our common heritage.  

Semper Vi.


Maj. Gen. Alfred E. Neuman
National Commander

[Major Carrales]

I mentioned this on another thread.  We have an opportunity to resolve this uniform debate once and for all.

The USAF is scrapping the "McPeak-3-Button" uniform.  They will shortly be going to what they choose to call the "Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform."  This is a 4-button, belted uniform, sort of an AF-Blue version of the World War II "Pinks and Greens."

So, give me your reaction to the following letter from some near-future National Commander:

To All CAP members:

As you know, the Air Force will be transitioning to the "Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform" over the next few years.  Hap Arnold was a central character in the formation of America's Air Force, and the Air Force's only 5-star general.  The impact of Arnold's vision is still felt today.  

Hap Arnold is an important part of CAP heritage, as well.  It was at Arnolds order that CAP was transfered to the Army Ar Corps as an auxiliary, and it was Arnold's idea to arm CAP planes with bombs and use them to attack enemy submarines off our coasts.  Our cadet program, designed to reduce attrittion of trainees in the aviation cadet programs, was also Arnold's idea.

Therefore, to parallel the Air Force's implementation of the Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform, CAP will be transitioning to the Hap Arnold Heritage Corporate Uniform over the next 5 years.  The Arnold Heritage Corporate Uniform (AHCU) will replace the AF-style uniform and the TPU during that phase-in time.

Features which differentiate the HACU from the Air Force's uniform are:

a.  Sewn-on black epaulets, black sleeve braid for officers, and a black belt.  Metal rank will be worn on the epaulet.

b.  "U.S." cutouts on the upper lapel, 5/8" above the lapel notch; and "C.A.P." cutouts on the lower lapel, 5/8" below the notch.

c.  The AHCU will be worn with a white shirt and AF blue tie.  The white shirt will have new black epaulets, identical to the former gray ones except for the color.

d.  All CAP members will wear a shoulder-seam "Rocker" on each sleeve.  Officers will wear rockers which read:  "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary" and cadets will wear "Civil Air Patrol Cadet"  All rockers will be black with silver lettering.

e.  Buttons will feature the tri-prop CAP emblem.

Since this is a corporate uniform, all personnel may wear it, regardless of physical fitness standards.  In order to maintain a professional image, guidance on grooming will follow in the next issue of CAPM 39-1.  Award ribbons from the military may be worn on this uniform, and badges from the US and foreign military may be worn on the right side, provided that the wearer has a corresponding CAP badge on the left.

This uniform is in keeping with the traditions of both the CAP and the Air Force, and celebrates our common heritage.  

Semper Vi.


Maj. Gen. Alfred E. Neuman
National Commander

Are you MAD??? 

The "Black Themed Items" remind me of what CAP must look like in Star Trek's Mirror Universe. 

[CAP_truth]

Maybe we can get the AF to allow the medal rank with the CAP cutpouts and the CAP silver name tag on the AF service coat. But this would still not allow those members who do not meet the weight standards to wear the AF uniform. I remember when we wore the AF uniform service coat with the black army like name tag, the medal rank & CAP/USAF aux badge and wing patches.

[Cecil DP]

The USAF is scrapping the "McPeak-3-Button" uniform.  They will shortly be going to what they choose to call the "Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform."  This is a 4-button, belted uniform, sort of an AF-Blue version of the World War II "Pinks and Greens."

Is it just me or has  the Air Force had a major change in uniforms  about every 5 years?

[Redbird Leader]

Just a  thought:  As a retired AF officer, I am authorized to wear an AF uniform regardless of my height/weight; however, as a current CAP officer, I can pick whatever combination suits my fancy and is in accordance with height/weight restrictions. 


Aux on/Aux off

[MIKE]

For people who can't stop talking about uniforms, you guys have horrible fashion sense.  The TPU already looks like [butt], and to think you would come up with something that is actually worse that everybody has to wear. 

[JayT]

Just a  thought:  As a retired AF officer, I am authorized to wear an AF uniform regardless of my height/weight; however, as a current CAP officer, I can pick whatever combination suits my fancy and is in accordance with height/weight restrictions. 


Aux on/Aux off

Sir, what does that have to do with anything?

[Hawk200]

a.  Sewn-on black epaulets, black sleeve braid for officers, and a black belt.  Metal rank will be worn on the epaulet.

The epaulets and metal rank I like. The other stuff I would consider a bit drastic. Go with simple. 

b.  "U.S." cutouts on the upper lapel, 5/8" above the lapel notch; and "C.A.P." cutouts on the lower lapel, 5/8" below the notch.

Seems a little much. If you're going to go with heritage, I'd put CAP discs on the lower lapel like was worn on old Army Air Corps uniforms used by CAP.

c.  The AHCU will be worn with a white shirt and AF blue tie.  The white shirt will have new black epaulets, identical to the former gray ones except for the color.

Stick with blue shirts, you can buy them in any AF military clothing. Again, keep it simple.

d.  All CAP members will wear a shoulder-seam "Rocker" on each sleeve.  Officers will wear rockers which read:  "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary" and cadets will wear "Civil Air Patrol Cadet"  All rockers will be black with silver lettering.

Seems a little much, as well. A rocker on one side I could handle. Use a single rocker design, no reason that a cadet should have to change it once they go senior. Transition should be a matter of changing rank insignia, and to ribbons permitted for prior cadet seniors.

e.  Buttons will feature the tri-prop CAP emblem.

Like it.

Award ribbons from the military may be worn on this uniform, and badges from the US and foreign military may be worn on the right side, provided that the wearer has a corresponding CAP badge on the left.

Like being able to keep my military awards and decs. However, I would keep US military badges on the left side. I don't even have CAP badges, under this stipulation, I wouldn't be able to wear my military ones. Like the allowance for foreign badges, but we'd need to have a list of allowable ones.

[Hawk200]

Just a  thought:  As a retired AF officer, I am authorized to wear an AF uniform regardless of my height/weight; however, as a current CAP officer, I can pick whatever combination suits my fancy and is in accordance with height/weight restrictions. 


Aux on/Aux off

Sir, what does that have to do with anything?

A lot. It points out the difference of being permitted to wear something without weight restrictions as a retired officer of the AF, but limited to certain combinations in CAP. A pretty powerful point. And probably one that bears further scrutiny.