Uniform Changes

[isuhawkeye]

As we face a major change in command many on this board have advocated the removal of, or modification of these uniform items.  Just a few thoughts and comments

1.  The American Flag
      this change cost each and every member approximately $2 per person.  Removing this item will leave holes in the sleeves of everyone.  I for one do not want to purchase new BDU's, and I hate the look of stitching holes in uniforms.  Some may say that aligning ourselves more closley with the AF is worth the expense. 

2.  The Corporate Service Jacket
     The TPU jacket cost over $200 per person, and judging by the images captured at recent National board meetings the blanket elimination of this uniform would cost thousands of dollars. 

Just a few thoughts.  I would like to hear your concerns, or ideas

[Dragoon]

The answer (assuming folks believe there is a problem) is a 5 year phaseout period for any changes.

[SDF_Specialist]

As we face a major change in command many on this board have advocated the removal of, or modification of these uniform items.  Just a few thoughts and comments

1.  The American Flag
      this change cost each and every member approximately $2 per person.  Removing this item will leave holes in the sleeves of everyone.  I for one do not want to purchase new BDU's, and I hate the look of stitching holes in uniforms.  Some may say that aligning ourselves more closley with the AF is worth the expense. 

2.  The Corporate Service Jacket
     The TPU jacket cost over $200 per person, and judging by the images captured at recent National board meetings the blanket elimination of this uniform would cost thousands of dollars. 

Just a few thoughts.  I would like to hear your concerns, or ideas

I didn't pay $200 for my jacket, but I did pay more than I would like to have. The problem with all the uniform changes is that yes, we are all volunteers. Why do things like this if CAP cannot cover the members who are presently in CAP? Not everyone can afford to be buying new uniform items every other week, and then those of us who are not compliant (some of us that is ) getting torn a new one because we can't afford to keep up with everything. How about this.....leave everything the way it is now, and don't make any additional changes?

[Cadet Tillett]

How about this.....leave everything the way it is now, and don't make any additional changes?

Too simple.   

[SDF_Specialist]

How about this.....leave everything the way it is now, and don't make any additional changes?

Too simple.   

And it makes sense. That's probably why it'll never happen.

[DHollywood]

I find it interesting that the arguments seem to deviate towards the " we can't afford to buy new uniform items every other week" and the "there are too many uniforms" genre of thinking.

The least common denominator for CAP uniforms is while although there are quite a few choices, one need not procure all of the uniforms.

The basic uniform for most people is the AF blues without the service coat.  Perhaps a BDU as well.

Don't meet the weight/balance regs?  Then the basic uniform is the blues/whites without the service coat and perhaps the BBDU.

Don't want to shave?  Then the blue polo/grey slacks is perfect for you.

I think its wonderful that the first Amendment assures that we have the right to express our opinions and have discussion regarding such debates.

I think its even more wonderful that the "mob rule" decision making process is NOT the way by which policy is established and modified within CAP.

As was recently demonstrated by decisive action by the BOG, no one person is the monarch of CAP and while some may find displeasure in the policy of this organization, its better that way.

Not until one undertakes a serious study of the law does it become so clear that the very foundations upon which our system of freedom are based themselves limit the influence of the single voice singing its displeasure about such and such.

CAP is bigger than any one, or even many, of us as members.  CAP is bigger than the sum total of its members.

So as we continue to cross examine the policy decisions of our uniform options in CAP, be aware that the fact we have little influence over such choices is in fact a good thing - keeping stability and reasonability in place where, in our sense of wisdom, we would seek to destroy ourselves.

[Eclipse]

The least common denominator for CAP uniforms is while although there are quite a few choices, one need not procure all of the uniforms.

((*BINGO*))

They are called OPTIONS and give us more flexibility.  GOIAMO.

Most of the gnashing of teeth is from people who see someone else wearing something they don't like / want / don't agree with / wish they had / can't afford / are too military / not military enough / inappropriate for technical rescue ((geez)), etc.

Repeating now:
Look to the Navy and the Marines for LOTS more colorful combinations than we have, and right now the entirety of the RealMilitary® is in a uniform transition period, so they don't look all that uniform, either.

The RealMilitary®, PD's/FD's, even the ARC have the advantage of >ISSUING< uniforms (or providing a clothing allowance), which means they can mandate the wear of a specific combo.

Our regs specifically prohibit that.

And while it is a point of obvious and apparent constant metal and physical pain for people on this board, our uniforms are >EN-OH-TEE< NOT our problem.

Any uniform issue I have ever encountered (mine or others) has been corrected or addressed with a polite comment or conversation, and then we move on.

Why?  Because the rest of the operation is a function of respect and enthusiasm, with members working towards real goals with a reasonably coherent plan.

[NAYBOR]

I finally have the corporate service coat and black windbreaker, and I have to say, they ain't bad at all!  The only things I'd change about the corporate coat:

1.) Either remove the "CAP" devices from the lapels altogether--the nametag clearly states who we are, and would look more like it should with the cut of the coat--or put the "US" cutouts back on to look similar to the AF service dress.  Maybe put "US" on the top lapel, and "CAP" directly below on the lower lapel.  I think that might look kinda garish, though (I haven't tried it yet myself).  Vanguard/The Hock would have to make cutouts of each that marched in design--the CAP cutouts made by Vanguard are about twice as thick as the US cutouts!

2.) Bring the rank back for the flight cap as it was originally rolled out (on the right side)!  With the CAP cutouts gone off of the "TPU" coat, eveything would look distinctive enough not to be mistaken for anything but a CAP Officer (Navy or Coast Guard personnel do not wear rank on their shoulders, and with the distinctive "CAP Chicken" on the left hand side, it's distinctively CAP, aka civilian).

I wouldn't change anything else about the entire "TPU".

[JohnKachenmeister]

I find it interesting that the arguments seem to deviate towards the " we can't afford to buy new uniform items every other week" and the "there are too many uniforms" genre of thinking.

The least common denominator for CAP uniforms is while although there are quite a few choices, one need not procure all of the uniforms.

The basic uniform for most people is the AF blues without the service coat.  Perhaps a BDU as well.

Don't meet the weight/balance regs?  Then the basic uniform is the blues/whites without the service coat and perhaps the BBDU.

Don't want to shave?  Then the blue polo/grey slacks is perfect for you.

I think its wonderful that the first Amendment assures that we have the right to express our opinions and have discussion regarding such debates.

I think its even more wonderful that the "mob rule" decision making process is NOT the way by which policy is established and modified within CAP.

As was recently demonstrated by decisive action by the BOG, no one person is the monarch of CAP and while some may find displeasure in the policy of this organization, its better that way.

Not until one undertakes a serious study of the law does it become so clear that the very foundations upon which our system of freedom are based themselves limit the influence of the single voice singing its displeasure about such and such.

CAP is bigger than any one, or even many, of us as members.  CAP is bigger than the sum total of its members.

So as we continue to cross examine the policy decisions of our uniform options in CAP, be aware that the fact we have little influence over such choices is in fact a good thing - keeping stability and reasonability in place where, in our sense of wisdom, we would seek to destroy ourselves.

But...  I LIKE mob rule!!!!!

"She's a witch...  Burn her!!!!!"

[Stonewall]

If you are aircrew:  blue flight suit

Utility uniform:  olive drab fatigues, only rank, tapes, and badges

Service:  lose all air force blue combos and go with the TPU

Even though I HATE the TPU, I'd be much happier with everyone in the same uniform.

[MIKE]

UK, please tell me that is the medication talking. 

[Stonewall]

UK, please tell me that is the medication talking. 

I did take a Vicadin 2 hours ago...

MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 2,000

^^^Congrats.

[SarDragon]

Regarding removing patches and leaving huge holes -

I've been doing this a long time, and haven't had big problems on anything but the light blue shirts. I've seen more issues with uneven fading than thread holes.

Remove the patch and run through the wash once or twice.

[AlphaSigOU]

I agree with some, but not all of the changes suggested for the corporate service dress uniform:

Replace silver sleeve braid with dark blue - all for it. Somehow, silver sleeve braid just flat out looks tacky. I don't mind the silver chinstrap on the service cap.

Keep the hard rank on the corporate service dress jacket. I don't want gray shoulder marks on the corporate service dress jacket. All that will do is make us indistinguishable from AF-style except for the cut of the jacket. That might cause the RealAirForce® to have kittens.

If they're not going to make blue CAP-style shoulder loops for the shirt, then keep the gray epaulets. And make sure Vanguard comes up with a shorter version of the loops for female shirts - rolling the shoulder loops to make 'em fit the epaulet looks tacky.

Allow wear of miniature medals and dark blue bow tie, maybe a mess dress tux shirt for an alternative to AF-style mess dress.

Allow the 'fuzzies' to wear the corporate blues, so long as the beard is neatly trimmed.

Dump the 'U.S.' from Civil Air Patrol in the nametag (both blue and silver).

Minor tailoring: narrow the lapels on the corporate jacket a bit; if you wear more than three rows of ribbons and wings, the lapel begins to obscure them. The AF style jacket doesn't have such a problem, even though it's a different cut.  Maybe allow narrowing the waistline a tad (user option).

CAP on the lapels, no U.S. - that goes on AF-style.

Some will agree with me, others will scream HERESY!!!! But this is my opinion, and it ain't worth much, being I'm only a junior captain.

[NAYBOR]

No grey epaulets on the corporate blues in any way,shape or form!  No way! (IMHO)  It defeats having blue pants.  The AF says we have to wear them with AF combo--fine.  They've apparently given unwritten permission for the blue epaulets on the TPU--leave them alone!

[NEBoom]

No grey epaulets on the corporate blues in any way,shape or form!  No way! (IMHO)  It defeats having blue pants.  The AF says we have to wear them with AF combo--fine.  They've apparently given unwritten permission for the blue epaulets on the TPU--leave them alone!

Well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.  I won't go to the TPU unless they make the change to grey shoulder marks and nameplate.  All insignia and badges (with the possible exception of RM stuff) that are worn on the AF style uniform should also be worn on the Corporate uniform in the same manner.  Not trying to pick a fight or anything, just my opinion.  We need to look more like we all belong to the same organization.

I do see the argument against putting the grey shoulder marks on the double-breasted coat, as it may bring it too close to the AF Service Coat for comfort.

Anyway, it's not like I have any say in any of this, but it's fun to talk about.

[Hawk200]

No grey epaulets on the corporate blues in any way,shape or form!  No way! (IMHO)  It defeats having blue pants.  The AF says we have to wear them with AF combo--fine.  They've apparently given unwritten permission for the blue epaulets on the TPU--leave them alone!

So we get a corporate uniform that has only minor differences from the Air Force uniforms, but an Air Force uniform with distinctive differences from the actual Air Force? Doesn't seem to make much sense.

Consolidating insignia across the board is far better for uniformity purposes. Having grey on one, and blue on another that is only midly different just doesn't imply a united organization.

[JayT]

I think some of you guys will never be happy, even if 39-1 was written by yourselfs.

Lets worry about A. Enforcing the regulations and B. Getting our cadets into uniforms first.

You guys are arguing about the difference between US and CAP cutouts. Why don't you show the same outrage on the fact that most of our cadets are wearing civilian jackets with uniform.

[Major Carrales]

We cleaned the hangar today, it took about three hours.  When we had finished, one of my new 2d Lts called me from Lackland, she just made some expenses for the corporate style uniform...

It's here to stay.  I don't wear it, and unless someone gives me an aviator shirt, I won't be wearing it.  But, too many people have it to scrap it willy-nilly.

The point, wear which combo you like...tolerate those you don't.  Wear your's correctly, don't worry about anyone else unless you need to correct them on uniform violation...then do that with tact. 

[AlphaSigOU]

Well said, Major C.!

Whether you wear AF-style, corporate blue or corporate gray doesn't make you any less of a member in my eyes. Just make sure you wear it properly.

Got a spare aviator shirt or two... want 'em? 

[NAYBOR]

Hawk, I say everyone in the present corporate uniforms then.  That way we'd all be uniform, and wouldn't have to worry about that.  The AF wouldn't have to worrying about "policing"us because we wouldn't be wearing any AF uniforms.  We'd have our uniform, and can start our own traditions.  The AF would stay involved in the uniform process because they have complete control over our wear of grade (but the not the color of epaulet).  This being said, I'm still all for remaining USAFX.  I just wish Big Blue would treat us like USCG treats the USCGA. 

Gray looks like a$$ in any combo with blue as far as I'm concerned.  Plain and simple.  I like wearing hard rank again, too, not because I want to "look" like a military officer (I already am one), but because I am proud to wear my rank as a CAP OFFICER, that has an important job to do for America.  I like to look good doing it.  Gray doesn't do that for me.

I have the AF service dress with gray epaulets now.  I really thought I could live with it (the gray), that I didn't mind it so much.  I realize I was trying to kid myself.

I'll be happy once I get my corporate coat tailored and can wear that instead.  The windbreaker also looks really sharp with the CAP cutouts and hard rank on the epaulets with corporate blues combo.  That was a good idea.  I'd even be willing to move the CAP cutouts from the lapels of the corporate coat to the epaulets in the same way they are on the windbreaker.  That may even be an improvement to the corporate coat, I don't know.  It would definitely set the CAP officers apart from the AF officers--AF Officers don't wear any devices in the middle of their epaulets on the AF Service coat, and the CAP officers in corporate coats wouldn't have the devices on their lapels like AF officers do.  Doing that, the white shirt under the coat, and having the "reflective safety braid" on the cuffs would make CAP Officers clearly distinctive, even at a good distance, from AF Officers.

I don't want to look like an AF Officer.  I want to look like a professional, well dressed CAP officer.  Gray epaulets, in my opinion, falls short of the mark.  We have to wear them on the AF coat because the AF mandates that now.  Fine.  I can understand that and why.  But don't impose the same crap on our own corporate uniform.  I think, except for maybe a few slight tweaks, the CAP corporate service and utility uniforms are shapr and professional looking as they are now.

I am working and spending some money on a few ides I have to improve the corporate coat (not changing the coat itself, just some ideas for a "mess dress" and some insignia place changes) that, if it all comes together, I will submit up my chain of command for presentation to NHQ.  We'll see though.  I'm trying to have mockups of insignia being made now.

[Hawk200]

Hawk, I say everyone in corporates, then.  That way we'd all be uniform, and wouldn't have to worry about that.  The AF would stay invovled in the uniform process because they have complete control over our wear of grade. 

Gray looks like a$$ in any combo as far as I'm concerned.  Plain and simple.  I have the AF service dress with gray epaulets.  I'll be happy once I get my corporate coat tailored and can wear that instead.

It's not a matter of one uniform, it's a matter of cutting down on the excessive variations. If you're wearing the corporate dress because you don't like the grey slides, then you are making the effort to not be uniform. But then again, it's allowed. With our current uniform options, complete non-uniformity is fully permitted.

I don't like the corporates because I prefer to wear military awards and decs. Matter of fact, it's all I wear anymore. I just haven't bothered to pick up all the CAP ribbons, and I don't actually have any CAP badges. For me to go corporate means I would have to buy everything new. I don't feel that anyone has the right to force me to do that. And putting everyone in corporates would be doing just that.

To be blunt, this concept that everyone has to fit into one mold is really a little ridiculous. There is not a single [darn] reason why everybody should be forced into a single mold. Air Force uniforms and corporates can peacefully co-exist if people decide to let them. I'm only advocating eliminating excessive and confusing extremes. Different slides, and nametags, and insignia wear criteria for different uniforms of one organization is really kind of stupid, both in my viewpoint, and those of many others. Creating something to be different just because you can is really poor management.

[NAYBOR]

OK, yes, you are correct, Hawk.  No one should be forced to wear any one uniform.  Ergo my choosing to go to corporates.  I like them.  But saying grays should be worn on the corporates--uh-uh, that's a non sequitur for me!  It defeats (one of) the purpose(s) of the corporates then.  If we're to have uniform name tags, shoulder marks , etc, then I say we use blue epaulets (with CAP embroidered on them if need be), and the name tags worn with the present corporates (blue or silver) for ALL uniform combos.  Wear hard rank on the AF service coat like it used to be, with CAP either in the middle of the epaulet, or on the lapels. No gray, please!

Yes, wear whatever present uniform you want to, though, I say.  It's CAP for goodness sake!  We have a wide gamut of body shapes, experience, fuzzies, non-fuzzies, etc.  Each uniform for each need.  I agree--there's too many uniform combos.  But, so does the military, as I know you're aware, and our combos in CAP allow much more membership (for those who'd like to be in some kind of uniform), and allows that membership to get the mission done, looking good doing it, which is the ultimate goal.

I thought you were advocating everyone in "blue and grays", whatever combo you wear.  I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

[JayT]

Gentlemen

Except for this board, corporate and military style do exist peacefully side by side.

[NAYBOR]

Yes, I agree, they do, and should.  

I misunderstood Hawk is all.  This a gentlemanly (and healthy) discussion.  Where else can you respectfully voice you're opinions?  Hawk and I probably aren't as far off from our ideas as they may be perceived.  We're both ultimately here to get the job done.  Hawk's a good, respectable guy from what I've seen on this board, and a fellow officer.  Passionately discussing our opinions on CAP uniforms doesn't change that. 

[Hawk200]

I thought you were advocating everyone in "blue and grays", whatever combo you wear.  I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

No apologies necessary, there is nothing to forgive.

There was a time that I was ignorant enough to think that there should only be one uniform, and if you didn't fit into that one, tough. I've since realized that there is diversity.

However, with our uniforms there is excessive diversity. When I get a new member that comes to his or her Personnel Officer (yeah, that'd be me), and asks me what insignia he or she is going to need, it annoys me to have to ask: "What do you plan on wearing?" It is also irritating to have to explain over and over, ad nauseum, that if they change uniforms they need different insignia.

Personally, I don't like cadets wearing different color insignia that seniors. Take a group of CAP members all in blues on an Air Force base, and the cadets look more like Air Force members than the seniors. All the Air Force people think they're some kind of junior Academy cadet. It's a minor detail, but it gets irritating after awhile.

There's also the fact that a cadet turning senior has to buy a new nametag. Why? Yeah, it's just a cheap little nametag, but why should it have to be replaced in the first place?

You don't like grey. I can understand that. Unfortunately, there may be things about uniforms that we don't like, but have to accept. I don't like the way ACU's are made, but it's my designated uniform in the Army National Guard. I don't have the option. To establish some consistancy may require some sacrifices.

Personally, I don't mind the grey. Having a different color epaulette than Air Force officers means I get accused of impersonating one less often (It has actually happened a couple of times!). However, what do you think of black? I could go for it. Just have a matching black nametag to keep it somewhat color coordinated, and wear it across the board for all uniforms. Even an outsider notes little things like that more often than we realize. Having to read all the nametags to make sure we're the same organization is just not intelligent.

[NAYBOR]

I could see black across the board.  Not crazy about the idea, but it ain't gray, and it's what I wore as an AFRTOC cadet back in the day.  Do you think they'd allow Army shoulder marks?  Only 'cause they are black and readily available (and I have some already).  They have the gold piping on all of them, but that could also be a "distinctive" apsect of the mark for CAP.  It could also be touted as going back to CAP's "Army roots".  A CAP cutout can be pinned on them, I guess.  And AFROTC epaulets (C/2d LT, C/1st Lt, C/Capt) could be used for flight officer ranks with CAP cutouts on them.  However, I don't think "Big Blue" would go for mixing Army shoulder marks with distinctive AF uniforms for CAP.  Who knows though--it would be a simple fix that's readily available now.  Yeah, I could see that.  And black nametags is what CAP wore back in the day, too.  They could be brought back for all uniforms, I guess.

Yeah, I could see that...

What, you don't like the "digital PJ's" [ACU]?!!?!  I like the fact that you can change all of the insiginia with a "pull and rip".  A great idea, IMHO.  They are decently comfy, too.

That's where the liking stops, though.  They are affectionately known as the "ICU" where I come from ("I See You!").

[Hawk200]

I could see black across the board.  Not crazy about the idea, but it ain't gray, and it's what I wore as an AFRTOC cadet back in the day.  Do you think they'd allow Army shoulder marks?  Only 'cause they are black and readily available (and I have some already).  They have the gold piping on all of them, but that could also be a "distinctive" apsect of the mark for CAP.  It could also be touted as going back to CAP's "Army roots".  A CAP cutout can be pinned on them, I guess.  And AFROTC epaulets (C/2d LT, C/1st Lt, C/Capt) could be used for flight officer ranks with CAP cutouts on them.  However, I don't think "Big Blue" would go for mixing Army shoulder marks with distinctive AF uniforms for CAP.  Who knows though--it would be a simple fix that's readily available now.  Yeah, I could see that.  And black nametags is what CAP wore back in the day, too.  They could be brought back for all uniforms, I guess.

I don't see us using Army insignia, that would really be kind of lazy, and I have a feeling the Army might have issues with it. My idea would be taking the current grey epaulet slide, and make it black, with the embroidered "CAP" intact, and have the same silver end stripes as current for the field and flag officers. Just a color change.

Same with the current name tag with the "United States Air Force Auxiliary" and "Civil Air Patrol" on it as well. The silver nametags for service dress I would keep, but I would have the same one with "CIVIL AIR PATROL" on it worn on both uniforms. I would however put the "CIVIL AIR PATROL" below the name. It just doesn't look right above it to me.

Basically, black epaulettes on every uniform variation, cadets too. Silver nametag with the CAP line on all service dress, cadets included. Black nametag for all members, regardless of rank or status. When someone needs insignia, you tell them "You need 2LT epaulettes, a shirt/blouse nametag, a silver nametag and cutouts for your lapel if you're getting a service dress coat". No more of "Well, you'll need this if you're wearing this, but you need this if you wear this, but not if you wear that......etc." Apply the KISS principle.

And it might make it easier for whoever has the contract of the day to keep it all instock.

What, you don't like the "digital PJ's" [ACU]?!!?!  I like the fact that you can change all of the insiginia with a "pull and rip".  A great idea, IMHO.  They are decently comfy, too.

I don't like the cut of the uniform, it feels very strange after wearing BDU's for so long. I don't like "sticking to my buddy" either. Seems like I brush by someone, and the IFF cover strap catches on them. The chest pockets are completely worthless. I can barely put a wallet or a notepad in there. The pen pockets tend to be an annoyance on occasion, too.

It was convenient when I got my A2CU's though, I just slapped on my stuff, put them on. Was wearing within 30 mins of being issued them. Although the annoyances with those are a different story altogether.

[NAYBOR]

I was suggesting the Army shoulder marks because they're already made, and black.  I agree, though, I'd also like to see black CAP shoulder marks that are patterned the same as the current grays.  That'd be ideal.  I agree with all of the other ideas too if they had to be made.  Civil Air Patrol BELOW the name on name tags (I'm kinda fond of the new "U.S. Civil Air Patrol", to be honest, but whatever).  I think we would just need two-line name tags for all uniforms--one black 2-line, one silver (for the coats).

Personally, if we had to, yes, black would be the way to go for ALL uniforms, cadet or senior.  I completely agree with that.

However, I like the corporate blue uniforms how they are now, personally.  With some tweaks, if allowed.

Too bad we're not generals, huh?   

[JayT]

I have an idea.

How about cadets wear dark blue shoulder marks with mini insignia on the shirts and sweaters, metal insignia on the all weather coat and light weight jacket, and hard shoulderboards with metal rank on the full service jacket. This works will with existing items.

Senior Members can wear grey shouldermarks on all air force style uniforms, and the corporate unifroms too. Again, this work weel wit existing items.

Now, this is wear it gets confusing. Adopt the grey nameplate for everyone, on the shirt and sliver nameplate for all service jackets, corporate or otherwise.

Simple enough?

[Major Carrales]

Well said, Major C.!

Whether you wear AF-style, corporate blue or corporate gray doesn't make you any less of a member in my eyes. Just make sure you wear it properly.

Got a spare aviator shirt or two... want 'em? 

Honestly?!  Anything from down here in South Texas I could trade you for it?  

[JohnKachenmeister]

I mentioned this on another thread.  We have an opportunity to resolve this uniform debate once and for all.

The USAF is scrapping the "McPeak-3-Button" uniform.  They will shortly be going to what they choose to call the "Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform."  This is a 4-button, belted uniform, sort of an AF-Blue version of the World War II "Pinks and Greens."

So, give me your reaction to the following letter from some near-future National Commander:

To All CAP members:

As you know, the Air Force will be transitioning to the "Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform" over the next few years.  Hap Arnold was a central character in the formation of America's Air Force, and the Air Force's only 5-star general.  The impact of Arnold's vision is still felt today.  

Hap Arnold is an important part of CAP heritage, as well.  It was at Arnolds order that CAP was transfered to the Army Ar Corps as an auxiliary, and it was Arnold's idea to arm CAP planes with bombs and use them to attack enemy submarines off our coasts.  Our cadet program, designed to reduce attrittion of trainees in the aviation cadet programs, was also Arnold's idea.

Therefore, to parallel the Air Force's implementation of the Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform, CAP will be transitioning to the Hap Arnold Heritage Corporate Uniform over the next 5 years.  The Arnold Heritage Corporate Uniform (AHCU) will replace the AF-style uniform and the TPU during that phase-in time.

Features which differentiate the HACU from the Air Force's uniform are:

a.  Sewn-on black epaulets, black sleeve braid for officers, and a black belt.  Metal rank will be worn on the epaulet.

b.  "U.S." cutouts on the upper lapel, 5/8" above the lapel notch; and "C.A.P." cutouts on the lower lapel, 5/8" below the notch.

c.  The AHCU will be worn with a white shirt and AF blue tie.  The white shirt will have new black epaulets, identical to the former gray ones except for the color.

d.  All CAP members will wear a shoulder-seam "Rocker" on each sleeve.  Officers will wear rockers which read:  "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary" and cadets will wear "Civil Air Patrol Cadet"  All rockers will be black with silver lettering.

e.  Buttons will feature the tri-prop CAP emblem.

Since this is a corporate uniform, all personnel may wear it, regardless of physical fitness standards.  In order to maintain a professional image, guidance on grooming will follow in the next issue of CAPM 39-1.  Award ribbons from the military may be worn on this uniform, and badges from the US and foreign military may be worn on the right side, provided that the wearer has a corresponding CAP badge on the left.

This uniform is in keeping with the traditions of both the CAP and the Air Force, and celebrates our common heritage.  

Semper Vi.


Maj. Gen. Alfred E. Neuman
National Commander

[Major Carrales]

I mentioned this on another thread.  We have an opportunity to resolve this uniform debate once and for all.

The USAF is scrapping the "McPeak-3-Button" uniform.  They will shortly be going to what they choose to call the "Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform."  This is a 4-button, belted uniform, sort of an AF-Blue version of the World War II "Pinks and Greens."

So, give me your reaction to the following letter from some near-future National Commander:

To All CAP members:

As you know, the Air Force will be transitioning to the "Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform" over the next few years.  Hap Arnold was a central character in the formation of America's Air Force, and the Air Force's only 5-star general.  The impact of Arnold's vision is still felt today.  

Hap Arnold is an important part of CAP heritage, as well.  It was at Arnolds order that CAP was transfered to the Army Ar Corps as an auxiliary, and it was Arnold's idea to arm CAP planes with bombs and use them to attack enemy submarines off our coasts.  Our cadet program, designed to reduce attrittion of trainees in the aviation cadet programs, was also Arnold's idea.

Therefore, to parallel the Air Force's implementation of the Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform, CAP will be transitioning to the Hap Arnold Heritage Corporate Uniform over the next 5 years.  The Arnold Heritage Corporate Uniform (AHCU) will replace the AF-style uniform and the TPU during that phase-in time.

Features which differentiate the HACU from the Air Force's uniform are:

a.  Sewn-on black epaulets, black sleeve braid for officers, and a black belt.  Metal rank will be worn on the epaulet.

b.  "U.S." cutouts on the upper lapel, 5/8" above the lapel notch; and "C.A.P." cutouts on the lower lapel, 5/8" below the notch.

c.  The AHCU will be worn with a white shirt and AF blue tie.  The white shirt will have new black epaulets, identical to the former gray ones except for the color.

d.  All CAP members will wear a shoulder-seam "Rocker" on each sleeve.  Officers will wear rockers which read:  "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary" and cadets will wear "Civil Air Patrol Cadet"  All rockers will be black with silver lettering.

e.  Buttons will feature the tri-prop CAP emblem.

Since this is a corporate uniform, all personnel may wear it, regardless of physical fitness standards.  In order to maintain a professional image, guidance on grooming will follow in the next issue of CAPM 39-1.  Award ribbons from the military may be worn on this uniform, and badges from the US and foreign military may be worn on the right side, provided that the wearer has a corresponding CAP badge on the left.

This uniform is in keeping with the traditions of both the CAP and the Air Force, and celebrates our common heritage.  

Semper Vi.


Maj. Gen. Alfred E. Neuman
National Commander

Are you MAD??? 

The "Black Themed Items" remind me of what CAP must look like in Star Trek's Mirror Universe. 

[CAP_truth]

Maybe we can get the AF to allow the medal rank with the CAP cutpouts and the CAP silver name tag on the AF service coat. But this would still not allow those members who do not meet the weight standards to wear the AF uniform. I remember when we wore the AF uniform service coat with the black army like name tag, the medal rank & CAP/USAF aux badge and wing patches.

[Cecil DP]

The USAF is scrapping the "McPeak-3-Button" uniform.  They will shortly be going to what they choose to call the "Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform."  This is a 4-button, belted uniform, sort of an AF-Blue version of the World War II "Pinks and Greens."

Is it just me or has  the Air Force had a major change in uniforms  about every 5 years?

[Redbird Leader]

Just a  thought:  As a retired AF officer, I am authorized to wear an AF uniform regardless of my height/weight; however, as a current CAP officer, I can pick whatever combination suits my fancy and is in accordance with height/weight restrictions. 


Aux on/Aux off

[MIKE]

For people who can't stop talking about uniforms, you guys have horrible fashion sense.  The TPU already looks like [butt], and to think you would come up with something that is actually worse that everybody has to wear. 

[JayT]

Just a  thought:  As a retired AF officer, I am authorized to wear an AF uniform regardless of my height/weight; however, as a current CAP officer, I can pick whatever combination suits my fancy and is in accordance with height/weight restrictions. 


Aux on/Aux off

Sir, what does that have to do with anything?

[Hawk200]

a.  Sewn-on black epaulets, black sleeve braid for officers, and a black belt.  Metal rank will be worn on the epaulet.

The epaulets and metal rank I like. The other stuff I would consider a bit drastic. Go with simple. 

b.  "U.S." cutouts on the upper lapel, 5/8" above the lapel notch; and "C.A.P." cutouts on the lower lapel, 5/8" below the notch.

Seems a little much. If you're going to go with heritage, I'd put CAP discs on the lower lapel like was worn on old Army Air Corps uniforms used by CAP.

c.  The AHCU will be worn with a white shirt and AF blue tie.  The white shirt will have new black epaulets, identical to the former gray ones except for the color.

Stick with blue shirts, you can buy them in any AF military clothing. Again, keep it simple.

d.  All CAP members will wear a shoulder-seam "Rocker" on each sleeve.  Officers will wear rockers which read:  "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary" and cadets will wear "Civil Air Patrol Cadet"  All rockers will be black with silver lettering.

Seems a little much, as well. A rocker on one side I could handle. Use a single rocker design, no reason that a cadet should have to change it once they go senior. Transition should be a matter of changing rank insignia, and to ribbons permitted for prior cadet seniors.

e.  Buttons will feature the tri-prop CAP emblem.

Like it.

Award ribbons from the military may be worn on this uniform, and badges from the US and foreign military may be worn on the right side, provided that the wearer has a corresponding CAP badge on the left.

Like being able to keep my military awards and decs. However, I would keep US military badges on the left side. I don't even have CAP badges, under this stipulation, I wouldn't be able to wear my military ones. Like the allowance for foreign badges, but we'd need to have a list of allowable ones.

[Hawk200]

Just a  thought:  As a retired AF officer, I am authorized to wear an AF uniform regardless of my height/weight; however, as a current CAP officer, I can pick whatever combination suits my fancy and is in accordance with height/weight restrictions. 


Aux on/Aux off

Sir, what does that have to do with anything?

A lot. It points out the difference of being permitted to wear something without weight restrictions as a retired officer of the AF, but limited to certain combinations in CAP. A pretty powerful point. And probably one that bears further scrutiny.

[JohnKachenmeister]

a.  Sewn-on black epaulets, black sleeve braid for officers, and a black belt.  Metal rank will be worn on the epaulet.

The epaulets and metal rank I like. The other stuff I would consider a bit drastic. Go with simple. 

b.  "U.S." cutouts on the upper lapel, 5/8" above the lapel notch; and "C.A.P." cutouts on the lower lapel, 5/8" below the notch.

Seems a little much. If you're going to go with heritage, I'd put CAP discs on the lower lapel like was worn on old Army Air Corps uniforms used by CAP.

c.  The AHCU will be worn with a white shirt and AF blue tie.  The white shirt will have new black epaulets, identical to the former gray ones except for the color.

Stick with blue shirts, you can buy them in any AF military clothing. Again, keep it simple.

d.  All CAP members will wear a shoulder-seam "Rocker" on each sleeve.  Officers will wear rockers which read:  "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary" and cadets will wear "Civil Air Patrol Cadet"  All rockers will be black with silver lettering.

Seems a little much, as well. A rocker on one side I could handle. Use a single rocker design, no reason that a cadet should have to change it once they go senior. Transition should be a matter of changing rank insignia, and to ribbons permitted for prior cadet seniors.

e.  Buttons will feature the tri-prop CAP emblem.

Like it.

Award ribbons from the military may be worn on this uniform, and badges from the US and foreign military may be worn on the right side, provided that the wearer has a corresponding CAP badge on the left.

Like being able to keep my military awards and decs. However, I would keep US military badges on the left side. I don't even have CAP badges, under this stipulation, I wouldn't be able to wear my military ones. Like the allowance for foreign badges, but we'd need to have a list of allowable ones.

Remember, Hawk, (and others) I planned this to be a Corporate uniform.  There HAS to be significant variances from the AF uniform.  Just not so many that we look like we should be singing the songs from "HMS Pinnafore."

As far as the sew-on rockers, one or two are a max nix.  The idea of changing rockers when one turns senior is another hark back to our heritage, when we used to have sew-on insignia to designate CAP membership.  Seniors had the "Pepsi-Cola" patch, and cadets had a blue rectangle reading "Cadet/Civil Air Patrol"

[JohnKachenmeister]

Maybe we can get the AF to allow the medal rank with the CAP cutpouts and the CAP silver name tag on the AF service coat. But this would still not allow those members who do not meet the weight standards to wear the AF uniform. I remember when we wore the AF uniform service coat with the black army like name tag, the medal rank & CAP/USAF aux badge and wing patches.

That's why its the Hap Arnold Heritage CORPORATE Uniform.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Just a  thought:  As a retired AF officer, I am authorized to wear an AF uniform regardless of my height/weight; however, as a current CAP officer, I can pick whatever combination suits my fancy and is in accordance with height/weight restrictions. 


Aux on/Aux off

Sir, what does that have to do with anything?

A lot. It points out the difference of being permitted to wear something without weight restrictions as a retired officer of the AF, but limited to certain combinations in CAP. A pretty powerful point. And probably one that bears further scrutiny.

Also, State Defense Forces with an Air Guard element wear the Air Force uniform regardless of height/weight.

[jb512]

Another uniform discussion?  No...

On topic:

1.  American flag - Keep it.  It's not hurting anybody, and it's not expensive.  It also adds an extra flair to the NASCAR-like, colorful look of our duty uniform.  While we're at it, let's authorize patches for the bottom pockets, upper sleeves, lower sleeves, sides, and a big Budweiser bowtie in the middle of the back.  Once those spots are filled, we can start working down the legs of the pants.

2.  TPU - Keep it for the fat/fuzzies.  Yeah, it's expensive, but that's the side-effect.  At least that's one standard that we have.

[JayT]

Just a  thought:  As a retired AF officer, I am authorized to wear an AF uniform regardless of my height/weight; however, as a current CAP officer, I can pick whatever combination suits my fancy and is in accordance with height/weight restrictions. 


Aux on/Aux off

Sir, what does that have to do with anything?

A lot. It points out the difference of being permitted to wear something without weight restrictions as a retired officer of the AF, but limited to certain combinations in CAP. A pretty powerful point. And probably one that bears further scrutiny.

Civil Air Patrol is not the Air Force through. When a member joins, be then an ex Marine Sergeant or an Air Force officer, they work and play by our rules. If the Air Force wants to let their retirees (who, of course, have contributed a lot to the service) wear the uniform regardless of weight standards, thats the Air Force rules. If our regulations say you can't then you can't.

[ZigZag911]

Kach & Hawk,

I gotta go with Sparky on this one...the black epaulets & insignia are definitely a non-starter!

Have you ever seen a CAP mess dress uniform? The midnight blue (or are they black?) epaulets look AWFUL!

Back to the drawing board, gents!

Good concept, lousy color scheme!

[jb512]

Post one more time, ZigZag....

[ZigZag911]

Already did!

By the way, can we get a discussion going about introducing the rank of "Corporal-Captain" (like Hawkeye gave Radar on MASH to sneak him into an O Club!)

[jb512]

Congrats on 1000!

Just do it the same way.  Take off one of your blings, attach it to a Corporal, and there ya go.  When someone asks, just tell them it's a wear-test.  We have enough members doing their own wear-testing of new combinations of uniforms/insignia already, so it should fit right in.

[Eagle400]

Already did!

By the way, can we get a discussion going about introducing the rank of "Corporal-Captain" (like Hawkeye gave Radar on MASH to sneak him into an O Club!)

Reminds me of this:

[JohnKachenmeister]

Kach & Hawk,

I gotta go with Sparky on this one...the black epaulets & insignia are definitely a non-starter!

Have you ever seen a CAP mess dress uniform? The midnight blue (or are they black?) epaulets look AWFUL!

Back to the drawing board, gents!

Good concept, lousy color scheme!

Actually, I liked the CAP shoulder boards better than the Air Force ones.  Matter of taste, I guess.

So... What color would be better?  If it were a REAL heritage uniform the epaulets and sleeve stripe would be bright red! Now THAT is a non-starter!

[Redbird Leader]

I guess I just threw a wrench into an already over done topic: Ref Retired AF vs Active CAP and uniform wear. 

Yes, I did my 20 years of active duty and am now allowed to wear the (strictly) AF uniform in spite of what body shape I am currently maintaining; but it seems a little ironic that I am not allowed to wear the AF Auxiliary (read AF style) uniform as a civilian. 
BTW, regarding the veteran status, I did my time in CAP before the AF, while in the AF, and have remained a member for the last 38 years.  (I'm thinking of making CAP a permanent hobby!)

[Hawk200]

Civil Air Patrol is not the Air Force through. When a member joins, be then an ex Marine Sergeant or an Air Force officer, they work and play by our rules. If the Air Force wants to let their retirees (who, of course, have contributed a lot to the service) wear the uniform regardless of weight standards, thats the Air Force rules. If our regulations say you can't then you can't.

You completely missed the point. Don't worry about it though, it doesn't matter.

[Hawk200]

Remember, Hawk, (and others) I planned this to be a Corporate uniform.  There HAS to be significant variances from the AF uniform.  Just not so many that we look like we should be singing the songs from "HMS Pinnafore."

As far as the sew-on rockers, one or two are a max nix.  The idea of changing rockers when one turns senior is another hark back to our heritage, when we used to have sew-on insignia to designate CAP membership.  Seniors had the "Pepsi-Cola" patch, and cadets had a blue rectangle reading "Cadet/Civil Air Patrol"

Point taken. I would prefer to keep an Air Force uniform around, I think it's a bad idea to ditch it altogether. There are organizations that aren't even directly affiliated with the various branches of service, or loosely so, that wear uniforms closer to the military. I think we ought to do the same. We do have heritage, but we shouldn't discard our association with the Air Force to bring it back.

I can say that even some branches of service can be confused for each other. I remember the first time I saw a Coastie in uniform. I just thought he was wearing some strange ribbons. If I hadn't noted the second line on his nametag stating "U.S. Coast Guard", I would have been thoroughly confused.

[JayT]

Civil Air Patrol is not the Air Force through. When a member joins, be then an ex Marine Sergeant or an Air Force officer, they work and play by our rules. If the Air Force wants to let their retirees (who, of course, have contributed a lot to the service) wear the uniform regardless of weight standards, thats the Air Force rules. If our regulations say you can't then you can't.

You completely missed the point. Don't worry about it though, it doesn't matter.

The point was that if the Air Force lets retired personnal who are overwight wear the regular uniform, so why shouldn't we?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Remember, Hawk, (and others) I planned this to be a Corporate uniform.  There HAS to be significant variances from the AF uniform.  Just not so many that we look like we should be singing the songs from "HMS Pinnafore."

As far as the sew-on rockers, one or two are a max nix.  The idea of changing rockers when one turns senior is another hark back to our heritage, when we used to have sew-on insignia to designate CAP membership.  Seniors had the "Pepsi-Cola" patch, and cadets had a blue rectangle reading "Cadet/Civil Air Patrol"

Point taken. I would prefer to keep an Air Force uniform around, I think it's a bad idea to ditch it altogether. There are organizations that aren't even directly affiliated with the various branches of service, or loosely so, that wear uniforms closer to the military. I think we ought to do the same. We do have heritage, but we shouldn't discard our association with the Air Force to bring it back.

I can say that even some branches of service can be confused for each other. I remember the first time I saw a Coastie in uniform. I just thought he was wearing some strange ribbons. If I hadn't noted the second line on his nametag stating "U.S. Coast Guard", I would have been thoroughly confused.

Hawk:

I agree with you.  The right to wear the Air Force uniform was earned in battle and is a part of our tradition.  But with our officer force getting older, it will be getting tougher and tougher for our officers to stay within the 10 percent over basic training entry weight that 39-1 prescribes for wear of the AF uniform.  My proposal would create a similar-to-the-AF-uniform that is sufficiently different to rate classification as a corporate uniform.

[ZigZag911]

Kach,

I've been puzzling over a better color combination myself...unfortunately "Post Office Blue" is such an odd shade, it's hard to match well with anything...maybe some of the more color coordinated artistic types can chime in with ideas here.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Civil Air Patrol is not the Air Force through. When a member joins, be then an ex Marine Sergeant or an Air Force officer, they work and play by our rules. If the Air Force wants to let their retirees (who, of course, have contributed a lot to the service) wear the uniform regardless of weight standards, thats the Air Force rules. If our regulations say you can't then you can't.

You completely missed the point. Don't worry about it though, it doesn't matter.

The point was that if the Air Force lets retired personnal who are overwight wear the regular uniform, so why shouldn't we?

No, his point is that the Air Force applies a standard to us that they do not apply to their own retirees and to the SDF air elements.

[jb512]

Civil Air Patrol is not the Air Force through. When a member joins, be then an ex Marine Sergeant or an Air Force officer, they work and play by our rules. If the Air Force wants to let their retirees (who, of course, have contributed a lot to the service) wear the uniform regardless of weight standards, thats the Air Force rules. If our regulations say you can't then you can't.

You completely missed the point. Don't worry about it though, it doesn't matter.

The point was that if the Air Force lets retired personnal who are overwight wear the regular uniform, so why shouldn't we?

Because we are an active organization with a mission (three missions).  When our members retire from CAP, then they can get fat and wear our uniforms.

[jb512]

Remember, Hawk, (and others) I planned this to be a Corporate uniform.  There HAS to be significant variances from the AF uniform.  Just not so many that we look like we should be singing the songs from "HMS Pinnafore."

As far as the sew-on rockers, one or two are a max nix.  The idea of changing rockers when one turns senior is another hark back to our heritage, when we used to have sew-on insignia to designate CAP membership.  Seniors had the "Pepsi-Cola" patch, and cadets had a blue rectangle reading "Cadet/Civil Air Patrol"

Point taken. I would prefer to keep an Air Force uniform around, I think it's a bad idea to ditch it altogether. There are organizations that aren't even directly affiliated with the various branches of service, or loosely so, that wear uniforms closer to the military. I think we ought to do the same. We do have heritage, but we shouldn't discard our association with the Air Force to bring it back.

I can say that even some branches of service can be confused for each other. I remember the first time I saw a Coastie in uniform. I just thought he was wearing some strange ribbons. If I hadn't noted the second line on his nametag stating "U.S. Coast Guard", I would have been thoroughly confused.

Hawk:

I agree with you.  The right to wear the Air Force uniform was earned in battle and is a part of our tradition.  But with our officer force getting older, it will be getting tougher and tougher for our officers to stay within the 10 percent over basic training entry weight that 39-1 prescribes for wear of the AF uniform.  My proposal would create a similar-to-the-AF-uniform that is sufficiently different to rate classification as a corporate uniform.

The TPU is about as close as you can get to a RM uniform.  Change it to allow RM badges and ribbons, and we're set.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Remember, Hawk, (and others) I planned this to be a Corporate uniform.  There HAS to be significant variances from the AF uniform.  Just not so many that we look like we should be singing the songs from "HMS Pinnafore."

As far as the sew-on rockers, one or two are a max nix.  The idea of changing rockers when one turns senior is another hark back to our heritage, when we used to have sew-on insignia to designate CAP membership.  Seniors had the "Pepsi-Cola" patch, and cadets had a blue rectangle reading "Cadet/Civil Air Patrol"

Point taken. I would prefer to keep an Air Force uniform around, I think it's a bad idea to ditch it altogether. There are organizations that aren't even directly affiliated with the various branches of service, or loosely so, that wear uniforms closer to the military. I think we ought to do the same. We do have heritage, but we shouldn't discard our association with the Air Force to bring it back.

I can say that even some branches of service can be confused for each other. I remember the first time I saw a Coastie in uniform. I just thought he was wearing some strange ribbons. If I hadn't noted the second line on his nametag stating "U.S. Coast Guard", I would have been thoroughly confused.

Hawk:

I agree with you.  The right to wear the Air Force uniform was earned in battle and is a part of our tradition.  But with our officer force getting older, it will be getting tougher and tougher for our officers to stay within the 10 percent over basic training entry weight that 39-1 prescribes for wear of the AF uniform.  My proposal would create a similar-to-the-AF-uniform that is sufficiently different to rate classification as a corporate uniform.

The TPU is about as close as you can get to a RM uniform.  Change it to allow RM badges and ribbons, and we're set.

That is an option, Jason.  My thinking is sometimes out of the box. 

If you accept the goal that it is good to have your entire force in one uniform, and not all of your force can wear the AF uniform, my plan would be to have an AF-like uniform that everyone can wear.  This would have to be, like the TPU, sufficiently different from the AF uniform so that the AF would consider it "Corporate" in nature, but close enough to the AF uniform to reflect our shared traditions, heritage, and battle history.

The TPU is a very good start on this.  But when the AF begins transition to their new uniform, I'm suggesting that we have an opportunity to improve on the concept illustrated by the TPU, be designing a one-uniform-for-all-officers new set of threads.

Just something to think about.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Kach,

I've been puzzling over a better color combination myself...unfortunately "Post Office Blue" is such an odd shade, it's hard to match well with anything...maybe some of the more color coordinated artistic types can chime in with ideas here.

I was hoping that one of the "Photoshop Geniuses" could post a picture.  I'm computer-literate, but I'm not up to reading "War and Peace" yet!

[BillB]

Retired CAP members can NOT wear any CAP unifoms, Air Force style or Corporate. The National Board decreed this two years ago.

[pixelwonk]

Kach,

I've been puzzling over a better color combination myself...unfortunately "Post Office Blue" is such an odd shade, it's hard to match well with anything...maybe some of the more color coordinated artistic types can chime in with ideas here.

I was hoping that one of the "Photoshop Geniuses" could post a picture...

Not only no, but hell no.

[Hawk200]

Civil Air Patrol is not the Air Force through. When a member joins, be then an ex Marine Sergeant or an Air Force officer, they work and play by our rules. If the Air Force wants to let their retirees (who, of course, have contributed a lot to the service) wear the uniform regardless of weight standards, thats the Air Force rules. If our regulations say you can't then you can't.

You completely missed the point. Don't worry about it though, it doesn't matter.

The point was that if the Air Force lets retired personnal who are overwight wear the regular uniform, so why shouldn't we?

No, his point is that the Air Force applies a standard to us that they do not apply to their own retirees and to the SDF air elements.

That would be it. Thanks, Kach. Nice to know someone can figure out what I'm thinking.

[jb512]

Retired CAP members can NOT wear any CAP unifoms, Air Force style or Corporate. The National Board decreed this two years ago.

My statement was more for effect.  I didn't know what the current ruling on that was.

[jb512]

Remember, Hawk, (and others) I planned this to be a Corporate uniform.  There HAS to be significant variances from the AF uniform.  Just not so many that we look like we should be singing the songs from "HMS Pinnafore."

As far as the sew-on rockers, one or two are a max nix.  The idea of changing rockers when one turns senior is another hark back to our heritage, when we used to have sew-on insignia to designate CAP membership.  Seniors had the "Pepsi-Cola" patch, and cadets had a blue rectangle reading "Cadet/Civil Air Patrol"

Point taken. I would prefer to keep an Air Force uniform around, I think it's a bad idea to ditch it altogether. There are organizations that aren't even directly affiliated with the various branches of service, or loosely so, that wear uniforms closer to the military. I think we ought to do the same. We do have heritage, but we shouldn't discard our association with the Air Force to bring it back.

I can say that even some branches of service can be confused for each other. I remember the first time I saw a Coastie in uniform. I just thought he was wearing some strange ribbons. If I hadn't noted the second line on his nametag stating "U.S. Coast Guard", I would have been thoroughly confused.

Hawk:

I agree with you.  The right to wear the Air Force uniform was earned in battle and is a part of our tradition.  But with our officer force getting older, it will be getting tougher and tougher for our officers to stay within the 10 percent over basic training entry weight that 39-1 prescribes for wear of the AF uniform.  My proposal would create a similar-to-the-AF-uniform that is sufficiently different to rate classification as a corporate uniform.

The TPU is about as close as you can get to a RM uniform.  Change it to allow RM badges and ribbons, and we're set.

That is an option, Jason.  My thinking is sometimes out of the box. 

If you accept the goal that it is good to have your entire force in one uniform, and not all of your force can wear the AF uniform, my plan would be to have an AF-like uniform that everyone can wear.  This would have to be, like the TPU, sufficiently different from the AF uniform so that the AF would consider it "Corporate" in nature, but close enough to the AF uniform to reflect our shared traditions, heritage, and battle history.

The TPU is a very good start on this.  But when the AF begins transition to their new uniform, I'm suggesting that we have an opportunity to improve on the concept illustrated by the TPU, be designing a one-uniform-for-all-officers new set of threads.

Just something to think about.

I hear ya, and I think that we're about as close as we can get.  People are still going to whine no matter what we come up with, whether it's the person who thinks that taking away the AF uniform leads to further distance from them, or the ones who don't want to wear a hat and shine their shoes.  I happen to agree with you, it's just that we get such a diversity from the small percentage of people who post here alone, it'll be hell to get anyone to progress towards that goal nationwide.  I know, I know... I'm still in the box.  Don't mind me.

With the exception of badges/ribbons/devices, the TPU is a RM uniform with a different colored shirt.  I compare it to the USCG uniform that is a combo between Navy and AF in colors, with CG on the nametag.

I like the idea of the TPU, but the shirt could stand to be an actual color, like you suggested, and use the military cut that some of us have gotten from other sources instead of the tent cut that comes from VG.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Any white aviator shirt is legal, Jason.  You don't have to get the frigate sail from Vanguard.

[JayT]

I'm willing to bet that the Air Force knows less about its SDF element then it does about us.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Kach,

I've been puzzling over a better color combination myself...unfortunately "Post Office Blue" is such an odd shade, it's hard to match well with anything...maybe some of the more color coordinated artistic types can chime in with ideas here.

I was hoping that one of the "Photoshop Geniuses" could post a picture...

Not only no, but hell no.

Awww... C'mon... PLEEEEZE!!!!!!!

[Hawk200]

I'm willing to bet that the Air Force knows less about its SDF element then it does about us.

The Army or the Air Force has no command relationship with SDF's. They are entirely state assets of the governor. The Army has permitted SDF's to use a modified version of it's Class A uniform, but that's the extent of their relationship.

There is a State Guard Association that has tried to establish some standards, but since they're not a Federal organization, they don't have any command authority.

A good webpage on their duties: http://www.sgaus.org/HR826MainPage.htm

[JayT]

Then why are people refer to them as the 'Air Force SDF element?'

It seems like a lot of people on this board want to blame the Air Force for CAPs problems.

[Hawk200]

Then why are people refer to them as the 'Air Force SDF element?'

If people jump off a bridge, should you do the same thing? Does the majority make it right?

I've never actually heard them called "Air Force SDF elements". I've heard them referred to as "Air elements" and "SDF Air Arms", but noone here has ever called them "Air Force SDF elements". Someone may call them that but the terminology is just as ignorant as calling an SDF an "Army". They're "militia's" or "State Guards" or "State Defense Forces", not Army or Air Force SDF's.

And would you care to list all the "problems" that a lot of people on this board are "blaming" the Air Force for? I followed an observation earlier that the Air Force is inconsistant with how they apply standards, but it was a simple observation, not blaming anyone. Was that what you were referring to?

[JohnKachenmeister]

I referred to them as "SDF Air Elements."  They don't belong to the Air Force, but the uniform does.  I am familiar with Army insignia for SDF's, but I'm not sure what special insignia, if any, the Air Force applies to the state air guard forces.

[Hawk200]

I referred to them as "SDF Air Elements."  They don't belong to the Air Force, but the uniform does.  I am familiar with Army insignia for SDF's, but I'm not sure what special insignia, if any, the Air Force applies to the state air guard forces.

The Army has specific allowances for SDF's to use their uniform, but I don't even know if the Air Force has made any allowance for use of theirs. If they have, I would be interested in seeing the message.

[mikeylikey]

SOOO.......what is the next uniform change?  Anyone have a guess, and if it is related to anything SDF......don't post it please!

[JohnKachenmeister]

the "Pineda Survival Ribbon" awarded to all wing and region commanders who didn't get fired?

[Smokey]

That would be a VERY limited ribbon.  Almost as rare as the Medal of Honor.

[JayT]

Then why are people refer to them as the 'Air Force SDF element?'

If people jump off a bridge, should you do the same thing? Does the majority make it right?

I've never actually heard them called "Air Force SDF elements". I've heard them referred to as "Air elements" and "SDF Air Arms", but noone here has ever called them "Air Force SDF elements". Someone may call them that but the terminology is just as ignorant as calling an SDF an "Army". They're "militia's" or "State Guards" or "State Defense Forces", not Army or Air Force SDF's.

And would you care to list all the "problems" that a lot of people on this board are "blaming" the Air Force for? I followed an observation earlier that the Air Force is inconsistant with how they apply standards, but it was a simple observation, not blaming anyone. Was that what you were referring to?

Actually, it wasn't you at all. It seems like every time the corporates come up in discussion, some people seem to think that fat and fuzzies should be allowed to wear the military style uniform. And it seems that those people are under the impression the Air Force is trying to dissrespect us by not letting all of our guys wear the military style uniform.

Honestly, it seems that a lot of people in CAP have a bit of inferiority complex inregards to the Air Force, sort of a 'bastard stepchild' thing.

[SarDragon]

I don't expect to wear the mil-style uniform. I do expect to be treated as an equal professionally.

Right now we have three classes of members, who, in some cases, are not treated equally. You have the "fit" members, who are allowed to wear the mil-style uniform, the "fatties", who can wear any of the corporate uniforms, and the "fuzzies", like me, who are only allowed to wear a subset of the corporate uniforms.

I would really like to have a set of uniforms, for all of us who can't wear mil-style uniforms, that shares some equivalency to AF uniforms at each level.

On that note, I think we need to get back on topic.

[isuhawkeye]

the "Pineda Survival Ribbon" awarded to all wing and region commanders who didn't get fired

I nominate Col. Ralph Tomlinson.

appointed by bowling, still in command

[JohnKachenmeister]

I don't expect to wear the mil-style uniform. I do expect to be treated as an equal professionally.

Right now we have three classes of members, who, in some cases, are not treated equally. You have the "fit" members, who are allowed to wear the mil-style uniform, the "fatties", who can wear any of the corporate uniforms, and the "fuzzies", like me, who are only allowed to wear a subset of the corporate uniforms.

I would really like to have a set of uniforms, for all of us who can't wear mil-style uniforms, that shares some equivalency to AF uniforms at each level.

On that note, I think we need to get back on topic.

I'd take it one step farther.

I'd like to see ALL of CAP in one uniform.

Before the Air Force discovered body fat, we were.  CAP guys all wore the AF uniform proudly.  Personally, I think that most of the personnel and other turbulence started with this multi-uniform thing in the 70's.

Now, I'll admit, beards, ponytails, and stuff were not popular back in the 60's.  Chubbyness was, however.

My dream situation would be for the USAF to waive the fat rules, and CAP members all shave and get haircuts.  Then, all of us wear one Air Force uniform.  That's unlikely.

So, my more realistic solution is to have one corporate uniform styled similar to and harking back to the same traditions as, the USAF unifrom.  And everybody wears it!

Chubbies get it tailored professionally, and fuzzies trim up so that at least they look like military professionals and not like Charlie Manson.

So... what...?  nobody wants to share my dream?

[jb512]

Any white aviator shirt is legal, Jason.  You don't have to get the frigate sail from Vanguard.

Yes, sir.  We got that clarified some time back thanks to some folks in here.  I'm glad we have the option of the tapered AF style aviator shirt.

[BillB]

John
The only problem, none of the older style AF uniforms are still in production. Althought you could come close to the 1950's AF Khaki uniform since "Dickies" makes a close imitation. Only difference, no epaulets or pocket flaps on the shirt. You would also have two uniforms showing up at a Squadron meeting, Seniors in the CAP heritage uniform and cadets in blues or BDUs.

[isuhawkeye]

with 50,000+ members we could get what ever we wanted created

[JohnKachenmeister]

John
The only problem, none of the older style AF uniforms are still in production. Althought you could come close to the 1950's AF Khaki uniform since "Dickies" makes a close imitation. Only difference, no epaulets or pocket flaps on the shirt. You would also have two uniforms showing up at a Squadron meeting, Seniors in the CAP heritage uniform and cadets in blues or BDUs.

Read back, Bill.

I suggested a completely NEW uniform, the Hap Arnold Heritage Corporate Uniform, based on the Arnold Heritage uniform that the USAF is going to, but with enough differences to qualify as a corporate bluesuit.  Put everybody in it, including cadets.

The theory, which was beat to death on the Lobby thread about the Battle of the Atlantic, is that Arnold is as much a part of CAP's heritage as the Air Force's.  We would not currently exist as an organization had Arnold not:

1.  Given CAP a decisive combat role, and

2.  Started the Cadet Program.

I know... white shirts for cadets?  But, hey, if the USMA cadets can look like ice cream truck drivers, so can our guys!

[Cecil DP]

with 50,000+ members we could get what ever we wanted created

And how many people can afford to scrap the current uniform and buy the Isuhawkeye uniform???

[Eeyore]

Heh, not me. Over $1,000 over the last year was enough to get me started and hopefully will last me a good number of years.

[NAYBOR]

In some studies I'm doing on the history of the Air Force uniform, it seems McPeak was not original in his idea about wanting sleeve braid to designate rank like the Navy.  Spaatz wnated it too:

http://www.af.mil/news/airman/1296/duds.htm

I never knew that! 

[JayT]

In some studies I'm doing on the history of the Air Force uniform, it seems McPeak was not original in his idea about wanting sleeve braid to designate rank like the Navy.  Spaatz wnated it too:

http://www.af.mil/news/airman/1296/duds.htm

I never knew that! 

More like the Royal Air Force it would seem.

[JohnKachenmeister]

In some studies I'm doing on the history of the Air Force uniform, it seems McPeak was not original in his idea about wanting sleeve braid to designate rank like the Navy.  Spaatz wnated it too:

http://www.af.mil/news/airman/1296/duds.htm

I never knew that! 

More like the Royal Air Force it would seem.

The RAF and the US Navy are actually very close.  The only difference is in the lowest officer grades.

In the Navy, an Ensign starts with one stripe, and a Lt (jg) goes to one-and-a-half stripes.

In the RAF, a "Pilot Officer" starts with a half-stripe, and goes to a full stripe at "Flying Officer."

Other than that, and the terms applied to the ranks, the insignia for officers in the RAF and US Navy is the same.