Uniform Changes

[isuhawkeye]

As we face a major change in command many on this board have advocated the removal of, or modification of these uniform items.  Just a few thoughts and comments

1.  The American Flag
      this change cost each and every member approximately $2 per person.  Removing this item will leave holes in the sleeves of everyone.  I for one do not want to purchase new BDU's, and I hate the look of stitching holes in uniforms.  Some may say that aligning ourselves more closley with the AF is worth the expense. 

2.  The Corporate Service Jacket
     The TPU jacket cost over $200 per person, and judging by the images captured at recent National board meetings the blanket elimination of this uniform would cost thousands of dollars. 

Just a few thoughts.  I would like to hear your concerns, or ideas

[Dragoon]

The answer (assuming folks believe there is a problem) is a 5 year phaseout period for any changes.

[SDF_Specialist]

As we face a major change in command many on this board have advocated the removal of, or modification of these uniform items.  Just a few thoughts and comments

1.  The American Flag
      this change cost each and every member approximately $2 per person.  Removing this item will leave holes in the sleeves of everyone.  I for one do not want to purchase new BDU's, and I hate the look of stitching holes in uniforms.  Some may say that aligning ourselves more closley with the AF is worth the expense. 

2.  The Corporate Service Jacket
     The TPU jacket cost over $200 per person, and judging by the images captured at recent National board meetings the blanket elimination of this uniform would cost thousands of dollars. 

Just a few thoughts.  I would like to hear your concerns, or ideas

I didn't pay $200 for my jacket, but I did pay more than I would like to have. The problem with all the uniform changes is that yes, we are all volunteers. Why do things like this if CAP cannot cover the members who are presently in CAP? Not everyone can afford to be buying new uniform items every other week, and then those of us who are not compliant (some of us that is ) getting torn a new one because we can't afford to keep up with everything. How about this.....leave everything the way it is now, and don't make any additional changes?

[Cadet Tillett]

How about this.....leave everything the way it is now, and don't make any additional changes?

Too simple.   

[SDF_Specialist]

How about this.....leave everything the way it is now, and don't make any additional changes?

Too simple.   

And it makes sense. That's probably why it'll never happen.

[DHollywood]

I find it interesting that the arguments seem to deviate towards the " we can't afford to buy new uniform items every other week" and the "there are too many uniforms" genre of thinking.

The least common denominator for CAP uniforms is while although there are quite a few choices, one need not procure all of the uniforms.

The basic uniform for most people is the AF blues without the service coat.  Perhaps a BDU as well.

Don't meet the weight/balance regs?  Then the basic uniform is the blues/whites without the service coat and perhaps the BBDU.

Don't want to shave?  Then the blue polo/grey slacks is perfect for you.

I think its wonderful that the first Amendment assures that we have the right to express our opinions and have discussion regarding such debates.

I think its even more wonderful that the "mob rule" decision making process is NOT the way by which policy is established and modified within CAP.

As was recently demonstrated by decisive action by the BOG, no one person is the monarch of CAP and while some may find displeasure in the policy of this organization, its better that way.

Not until one undertakes a serious study of the law does it become so clear that the very foundations upon which our system of freedom are based themselves limit the influence of the single voice singing its displeasure about such and such.

CAP is bigger than any one, or even many, of us as members.  CAP is bigger than the sum total of its members.

So as we continue to cross examine the policy decisions of our uniform options in CAP, be aware that the fact we have little influence over such choices is in fact a good thing - keeping stability and reasonability in place where, in our sense of wisdom, we would seek to destroy ourselves.

[Eclipse]

The least common denominator for CAP uniforms is while although there are quite a few choices, one need not procure all of the uniforms.

((*BINGO*))

They are called OPTIONS and give us more flexibility.  GOIAMO.

Most of the gnashing of teeth is from people who see someone else wearing something they don't like / want / don't agree with / wish they had / can't afford / are too military / not military enough / inappropriate for technical rescue ((geez)), etc.

Repeating now:
Look to the Navy and the Marines for LOTS more colorful combinations than we have, and right now the entirety of the RealMilitary® is in a uniform transition period, so they don't look all that uniform, either.

The RealMilitary®, PD's/FD's, even the ARC have the advantage of >ISSUING< uniforms (or providing a clothing allowance), which means they can mandate the wear of a specific combo.

Our regs specifically prohibit that.

And while it is a point of obvious and apparent constant metal and physical pain for people on this board, our uniforms are >EN-OH-TEE< NOT our problem.

Any uniform issue I have ever encountered (mine or others) has been corrected or addressed with a polite comment or conversation, and then we move on.

Why?  Because the rest of the operation is a function of respect and enthusiasm, with members working towards real goals with a reasonably coherent plan.

[NAYBOR]

I finally have the corporate service coat and black windbreaker, and I have to say, they ain't bad at all!  The only things I'd change about the corporate coat:

1.) Either remove the "CAP" devices from the lapels altogether--the nametag clearly states who we are, and would look more like it should with the cut of the coat--or put the "US" cutouts back on to look similar to the AF service dress.  Maybe put "US" on the top lapel, and "CAP" directly below on the lower lapel.  I think that might look kinda garish, though (I haven't tried it yet myself).  Vanguard/The Hock would have to make cutouts of each that marched in design--the CAP cutouts made by Vanguard are about twice as thick as the US cutouts!

2.) Bring the rank back for the flight cap as it was originally rolled out (on the right side)!  With the CAP cutouts gone off of the "TPU" coat, eveything would look distinctive enough not to be mistaken for anything but a CAP Officer (Navy or Coast Guard personnel do not wear rank on their shoulders, and with the distinctive "CAP Chicken" on the left hand side, it's distinctively CAP, aka civilian).

I wouldn't change anything else about the entire "TPU".

[JohnKachenmeister]

I find it interesting that the arguments seem to deviate towards the " we can't afford to buy new uniform items every other week" and the "there are too many uniforms" genre of thinking.

The least common denominator for CAP uniforms is while although there are quite a few choices, one need not procure all of the uniforms.

The basic uniform for most people is the AF blues without the service coat.  Perhaps a BDU as well.

Don't meet the weight/balance regs?  Then the basic uniform is the blues/whites without the service coat and perhaps the BBDU.

Don't want to shave?  Then the blue polo/grey slacks is perfect for you.

I think its wonderful that the first Amendment assures that we have the right to express our opinions and have discussion regarding such debates.

I think its even more wonderful that the "mob rule" decision making process is NOT the way by which policy is established and modified within CAP.

As was recently demonstrated by decisive action by the BOG, no one person is the monarch of CAP and while some may find displeasure in the policy of this organization, its better that way.

Not until one undertakes a serious study of the law does it become so clear that the very foundations upon which our system of freedom are based themselves limit the influence of the single voice singing its displeasure about such and such.

CAP is bigger than any one, or even many, of us as members.  CAP is bigger than the sum total of its members.

So as we continue to cross examine the policy decisions of our uniform options in CAP, be aware that the fact we have little influence over such choices is in fact a good thing - keeping stability and reasonability in place where, in our sense of wisdom, we would seek to destroy ourselves.

But...  I LIKE mob rule!!!!!

"She's a witch...  Burn her!!!!!"

[Stonewall]

If you are aircrew:  blue flight suit

Utility uniform:  olive drab fatigues, only rank, tapes, and badges

Service:  lose all air force blue combos and go with the TPU

Even though I HATE the TPU, I'd be much happier with everyone in the same uniform.

[MIKE]

UK, please tell me that is the medication talking. 

[Stonewall]

UK, please tell me that is the medication talking. 

I did take a Vicadin 2 hours ago...

MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 2,000

^^^Congrats.

[SarDragon]

Regarding removing patches and leaving huge holes -

I've been doing this a long time, and haven't had big problems on anything but the light blue shirts. I've seen more issues with uneven fading than thread holes.

Remove the patch and run through the wash once or twice.

[AlphaSigOU]

I agree with some, but not all of the changes suggested for the corporate service dress uniform:

Replace silver sleeve braid with dark blue - all for it. Somehow, silver sleeve braid just flat out looks tacky. I don't mind the silver chinstrap on the service cap.

Keep the hard rank on the corporate service dress jacket. I don't want gray shoulder marks on the corporate service dress jacket. All that will do is make us indistinguishable from AF-style except for the cut of the jacket. That might cause the RealAirForce® to have kittens.

If they're not going to make blue CAP-style shoulder loops for the shirt, then keep the gray epaulets. And make sure Vanguard comes up with a shorter version of the loops for female shirts - rolling the shoulder loops to make 'em fit the epaulet looks tacky.

Allow wear of miniature medals and dark blue bow tie, maybe a mess dress tux shirt for an alternative to AF-style mess dress.

Allow the 'fuzzies' to wear the corporate blues, so long as the beard is neatly trimmed.

Dump the 'U.S.' from Civil Air Patrol in the nametag (both blue and silver).

Minor tailoring: narrow the lapels on the corporate jacket a bit; if you wear more than three rows of ribbons and wings, the lapel begins to obscure them. The AF style jacket doesn't have such a problem, even though it's a different cut.  Maybe allow narrowing the waistline a tad (user option).

CAP on the lapels, no U.S. - that goes on AF-style.

Some will agree with me, others will scream HERESY!!!! But this is my opinion, and it ain't worth much, being I'm only a junior captain.

[NAYBOR]

No grey epaulets on the corporate blues in any way,shape or form!  No way! (IMHO)  It defeats having blue pants.  The AF says we have to wear them with AF combo--fine.  They've apparently given unwritten permission for the blue epaulets on the TPU--leave them alone!

[NEBoom]

No grey epaulets on the corporate blues in any way,shape or form!  No way! (IMHO)  It defeats having blue pants.  The AF says we have to wear them with AF combo--fine.  They've apparently given unwritten permission for the blue epaulets on the TPU--leave them alone!

Well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.  I won't go to the TPU unless they make the change to grey shoulder marks and nameplate.  All insignia and badges (with the possible exception of RM stuff) that are worn on the AF style uniform should also be worn on the Corporate uniform in the same manner.  Not trying to pick a fight or anything, just my opinion.  We need to look more like we all belong to the same organization.

I do see the argument against putting the grey shoulder marks on the double-breasted coat, as it may bring it too close to the AF Service Coat for comfort.

Anyway, it's not like I have any say in any of this, but it's fun to talk about.

[Hawk200]

No grey epaulets on the corporate blues in any way,shape or form!  No way! (IMHO)  It defeats having blue pants.  The AF says we have to wear them with AF combo--fine.  They've apparently given unwritten permission for the blue epaulets on the TPU--leave them alone!

So we get a corporate uniform that has only minor differences from the Air Force uniforms, but an Air Force uniform with distinctive differences from the actual Air Force? Doesn't seem to make much sense.

Consolidating insignia across the board is far better for uniformity purposes. Having grey on one, and blue on another that is only midly different just doesn't imply a united organization.

[JayT]

I think some of you guys will never be happy, even if 39-1 was written by yourselfs.

Lets worry about A. Enforcing the regulations and B. Getting our cadets into uniforms first.

You guys are arguing about the difference between US and CAP cutouts. Why don't you show the same outrage on the fact that most of our cadets are wearing civilian jackets with uniform.

[Major Carrales]

We cleaned the hangar today, it took about three hours.  When we had finished, one of my new 2d Lts called me from Lackland, she just made some expenses for the corporate style uniform...

It's here to stay.  I don't wear it, and unless someone gives me an aviator shirt, I won't be wearing it.  But, too many people have it to scrap it willy-nilly.

The point, wear which combo you like...tolerate those you don't.  Wear your's correctly, don't worry about anyone else unless you need to correct them on uniform violation...then do that with tact. 

[AlphaSigOU]

Well said, Major C.!

Whether you wear AF-style, corporate blue or corporate gray doesn't make you any less of a member in my eyes. Just make sure you wear it properly.

Got a spare aviator shirt or two... want 'em?