Ribbon wear

[Sgt. Savage]

I noticed while viewing some Racks in another thread that some people wear their UN/NATO ribbons after CAP ribbons.

Not wanting to be incorrect (since I wear mine after all other military ribbons, ahead of CAP ribbons) I checked 39-1.

It says you wear them bot ways, in conflicting tables.

Anyone know which way is REALLY right?

[Rube11]

Sgt Savage...

Here's the medals listed in AF Directives:  109. United Nations Medal 110. NATO Medal

Since they are USAF approved medals; they should take precedence over CAP ribbons.

Keyword is "should" since we don't have 100% standardization in the AF Aux!

Rube11

[Stonewall]

You're talking about my "rack", aren't you?

A few of us had this discussion and to be honest, I could go either way.  I just happened to have my NATO ribbon at the bottom of my CAP ribbons in the image of my rack.

Someone said, and I don't know who, the regs used to specifically say foreign awards went after CAP ribbons unless otherwise stated.  That may be where I got the idea, but now, as you said, it says it can go in both spots.

My squadron commander, an AFRES Colonel (group commander) and long time CAP member wears his NATO under his CAP ribbons as well.  Not saying the's the authority, but sometimes when all else fails, go with what the guy that has more rank does.  YMMV.

[Sgt. Savage]

Actually, I saw it a couple of times, I think... I need another drink, it is noon, right?

[Rube11]

This is why we need standardization in this AF Aux and it needs to start at NHQ!

It's not rocket science for personnel to establish directives to ensure we wear our ribbons / medals IAW HHQ directives for precedence purposes!   The military has been doing this throughout their history...it can be done with CAP.  You set the standard and it will be met...kinda like; you build it and they will come (unless it's Orientation Flights)...

Have your rack incorrect in the military and you pay the price!

Rube11

[MIKE]

This is what I think:  The ones that are listed on the table get worn per the table... If you get authorization for a foreign dec not listed on the table like a UK DFC, it gets worn per the text.

[Stonewall]

Have your rack incorrect in the military and you pay the price!

What price is that?  "Hey troop, I think your ribbons are out of order, but then again, we only wear ribbons once a year during inspection so have'em right next year".

I see command staff pictures on the wall all the time that have ribbons messed up.  The most common discrepency I find is with the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal.  The 3 center colors should be blue, white, red, not red, white, blue.  In fact, at the Navy Exchange here in town, the Command Master Chief has hers that way.

I really don't think too many pay attention or even care in the real military™.

[Sgt. Savage]

Ok, Kirt, it was you, I just saw it a few times in the same thread.

This is what I think:  The ones that are listed on the table get worn per the table... If you get authorization for a foreign dec not listed on the table like a UK DFC, it gets worn per the text.

Actually, both explanations show up in two different tables....

5-3 places foreign awards last, after CAP awards

5-4 Places foreign service awards last, in military awards, and foreign decorations a bit above those, all ahead of CAP.

My UNISOM II (UN Service Medal), much like Kirt's NATO, are actually listed in table 5-4, and thus, I think, belong above CAP ribbons.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Gawd, do I love it when I ACTUALLY have the answer, sort of...

You are speaking, no doubt, of the disconnect between the two tables of award precedence in 39-1.

One table lists the precedence of awards as:  US Military Awards-CAP Awards-Foreign Awards.  Cool.

The other one lists several foreign awards, notably the Vietnam Campaign Medal, the Vietnam Cross of Gallantry, and the Liberation of Kuwait medal, as following immediately in precedence behind all US Military Awards, and before all CAP awards.

So, I called our Uniform Regulation Guru at NHQ, and was advised of the following:

IF you earned a foreign award as a member of a foreign armed force, go with the foreign awards after the CAP awards.  On the other hand, if you were awarded foreign decorations while a member of the US Armed forces, go with plan B and wear them after the US awards but before the CAP awards.

I accused her of making up regulations as she went along, because having been in CAP off and on since 1963, I had NEVER heard that bizarre interpretation before.  She got very defensive, and told me that that has been the regulation for some time.  (It must be in the CLASSIFIED portion of 39-1.)

Personally, I think some of the draft-dodgers from the 1960's who have worked their way up the CAP chain wrote the regulation based on one of the slick-color ribbon charts that float around bases, and whoever wrote it simply didn't know that some of them awards on that chart were from foreign governments.  Suzy, to her credit, creatively came up with an explanation to cover their butts.

I'm not changing my ribbon rack just yet.  I'll wait for the movie to come out.  "CAPM 39-1... The Saga Continues."

[PHall]

Have your rack incorrect in the military and you pay the price!

Rube11

And what price would that be other then your supervisor or the First Sergeant telling you to fix your ribbons?
An Article 15? A Letter of Reprimand? I don't think so.

But what do I know, I only retired as a MSgt after 31 years in the Air Force/Air National Guard/Air Force Reserve.

[Rube11]

What price you ask...

Hum; buying a round of your favorite beverages.  Getting a gig at the NCO PME schools; getting embarrassed at the ceremony you attend while wearing them improperly.  Yea, you guys got me...the USAF really does not make the AD folks pay the price!

I relent...(but it sounded good).

As far as I know a retired MSgt in the reseves or guard has mucho knowledge!

Happy to hear we have clarification about UN/NATO Medal and it's precedence over CAP ribbons...

Rube11

[smgilbert101]

Related question...

Since the thread starter is one of those jump out of airplanes blow stuff up kinda guys, what about foreign awards like jump wings that are fairly common for to the knuckle dragging ground pounder types? <grin>

And yes, I was one of those knuckle draggers in my former life.

[DHollywood]

Related question...

Since the thread starter is one of those jump out of airplanes blow stuff up kinda guys, what about foreign awards like jump wings that are fairly common for to the knuckle dragging ground pounder types? <grin>

And yes, I was one of those knuckle draggers in my former life.

I am authorized foreign jump wings myself but they would not be authorized on the AF uniform, thus not authorized on the CAP uniform - according to my research.

I generally don't wear the corporate uniform for the sole reason that I can't wear my US jump wings. 

[Trung Si Ma]

According to my seminar photo, I wore Canadian Jump Wings over the name plate on the right side at NSC in 1983.  At that time, NHQ was still trying to come to grips with where US Jump Wings were supposed to be worn.  Some at National felt that they were aviation badges and had to be worn on the right side, but that was ignored by the jumpers.  Generally, we wore them as the Army and USAF wore them - above the ribbons and below the CAP aviation badge. 

Now days, they are all sewn to one of my helmet bags in a column next to the US Awards.

[Sgt. Savage]

The AF authorizes jump wings when awarded by competent authority, yadda, yadda.... As long as the requirements are the same. Everything I found says Army Wings are awarded using the same criteria. If the AF authorizes them, we can wear them in CAP.

[smgilbert101]

I may be a little behind the times, but when I went to jump school at Benning (early 80's), it was the jump school that trained all of the services.  The same held true for Rigger, Pathfinder, Jump Master, Air Assault, etc.  Is this still true?

[Sgt. Savage]

Think so. At least in the early 90's we had SEALs in our class.

[afgeo4]

Still holds true, but nowadays some services have their own classes (if there are enough people registered for one. I know that Marines are usually incorporated into the regular classes. Navy are few and far between, so they probably go into the main stream too. I know AF sometimes have their own classes as with recent training of Red Horse squadrons to become Airborne, the jump school just grouped all the airmen into one class to make things easier for them I guess.

[Stonewall]

I was just at Airborne School in July pinning wings on a former cadet of mine.  There were folks from every branch represented there.  They even still have Marine Corps liaison there.  Even had a Bulgarian paratrooper earn his wings.

The only new school that has come out in the past year or so is the Air Force's Combat Divers course out of Tyndall AFB.  About 3 years ago, the Navy opened up their own MFF (Military Free Fall) school out in San Diego.  They got tired of waiting for slots through the Army's course.  The Air Force also sends their folks to the Navy MFF school.