Bringing Back the Blue Shoulder Marks and Nametags for CAP Officers

[Eagle400]

Somehow, I believe that it is possible to bring back the blue shoulder marks and nametags for CAP officers to wear on the AF style service dress uniform.  What I'd like to know is what it would take for this to happen.

Even better, would be to know why the Air Force has forced CAP to wear the current grey nametags and shoulder marks on the AF style uniforms, even long after the incident that started all this. 

I know that the Air Force values CAP and considers it a good force multiplier (among other things), but I am puzzled as to why they won't allow the officers to wear blue nametags and shoulder marks on the AF blue service uniform.  Especially when SDF's are able to.   

[JohnKachenmeister]

We asked as late as last year.  They said "No."

What part of "No" don't you understand?

We wear gray epaulets to differentiate us from USAF officers.  We are not an SDF, and since we are not, we are governed by an entirely different set of regulations.

We formerly had ugly maroon epaulets.  That was for punishment.  The gray is not.  We got the gray after the Air Force decided we had been punished enough for the unprofessional conduct of a former national commander.

You have two choices:

1.  Learn to live with the gray, OR

2.  If you want to wear blue epaulets, join the USAF or an SDF.

[O-Rex]

The subject has been addressed ad nauseum.

Because USAF said so, that's why.

[Eagle400]

Because USAF said so, that's why.

But that doesn't mean we can't talk about it.

What about black epaulets and nametags?  Has that been proposed?  They are distinctive, but (in my opinion) look more professional than the current gray epaulets and nametags.

It's like going from ultramarine blue tapes on the BDU to dark blue tapes.  It's a matter of having a professional look.  Not necessarily mirroring the Air Force, but having a more professional look.

In my opinion, there's only one place for the gray epaulets and nametags, and that's the gray and white corporate uniform.   

[Pylon]

Because USAF said so, that's why.

But that doesn't mean we can't talk about it.

We have talked about it.  A quick search reveals a handful of threads already where this topic has been tossed about often.

I am not a big advocate of changing our uniforms.  The less change the better.  The cheaper for the membership, the less confusion, and less disjointedness caused by "phase-in" periods.

It's like going from ultramarine blue tapes on the BDU to dark blue tapes.  It's a matter of having a professional look.

This is one of only two changes I would really like to see, and it could be accomplished by attrition as dark blue doesn't look too terribly different from ultramarine.  The dark blue just looks less garish and better, in my opinion.

The only problem is that in the near future CAP will be moving to the ABUs.  I'd rather wait and see what nametape colors are suggested at that point, first.  We may find better ideas at that juncture.

In my opinion, there's only one place for the gray epaulets and nametags, and that's the gray and white corporate uniform.   

In my opinion, they look fine.  They don't clash with light blue, they look fine to the general public (in other words people don't ask: why does that guy have ugly gray on with that uniform?!), they make brother blue happy, and they do the job. 

We look close enough to the Air Force with our own distinctive look.  I don't think we need to tweak the major portions of the Air Force-style uniforms.

[Hawk200]

Somehow, I believe that it is possible to bring back the blue shoulder marks and nametags for CAP officers to wear on the AF style service dress uniform.  What I'd like to know is what it would take for this to happen.

Let me ask you a question: If there was a way to do it, why has it not been done?

Even better, would be to know why the Air Force has forced CAP to wear the current grey nametags and shoulder marks on the AF style uniforms, even long after the incident that started all this.

Institutions have far longer memories than individuals. And considering a certain general produced his own uniform recently, why would CAP uniforms be of any importance? Answer honestly, not stupidly. Saying "Well, that doesn't matter, they owe us an answer" is an example of "answering stupidly".

I know that the Air Force values CAP and considers it a good force multiplier (among other things), but I am puzzled as to why they won't allow the officers to wear blue nametags and shoulder marks on the AF blue service uniform.  Especially when SDF's are able to. 

SDF's do not answer to the Air Force in any way, shape or form. They are exclusively state entities with not one single link in a chain of command to the Air Force. The Air Force has no say in what the various governor's decide to clothe their private little air forces in. If they did, they would have done it by now.

Comparing CAP to SDF's is comparing apples and peanuts. Completely unrelated.

[Eagle400]

Let me ask you a question: If there was a way to do it, why has it not been done?

Because there are people in power at CAP NHQ and CAP-USAF that don't want it to happen, for whatever reason.  They don't need to give the reason, but it would be great if they did.   

Institutions have far longer memories than individuals. And considering a certain general produced his own uniform recently, why would CAP uniforms be of any importance? Answer honestly, not stupidly. Saying "Well, that doesn't matter, they owe us an answer" is an example of "answering stupidly".

All right, well here's the most honest answer I can give: I don't know. 

Air Force uniforms for CAP, however, are a different matter.  If CAP personnel can't wear blue epaulets and nametags with the AF-style service uniform combinations, then can't all the service uniform combinations in CAP (SD & TPU) at least look uniform?  What I mean by that is, why can't all the service uniform combinations in CAP have gray epaulets and nametags?  I do not care for the gray nametags and epaulets, but CAP is one team and all the uniforms should reflect this.

And why on earth did the Air Force approve of the blue epaulets for the TPU but not the Air Force blue service uniform?     That is a decision that puzzles me to this day.  The TPU is a CAP uniform and should not be entitled to any item of the Air Force uniform whatsoever.  Please National... for heaven's sake... get rid of the blue Air Force epaulets from the TPU!!!  And get rid of that silver sleeve braid too, so CAP personnel don't get confused for Coast Guard Auxiliary officers.   

SDF's do not answer to the Air Force in any way, shape or form.

Where did I say or imply they do, Hawk200?  You need to go back and read what was written.

They are exclusively state entities with not one single link in a chain of command to the Air Force. The Air Force has no say in what the various governor's decide to clothe their private little air forces in. If they did, they would have done it by now.

Then maybe it's time for CAP to be put under the National Guard Bureau rather than AU/AETC.  Make it the auxiliary of the Air National Guard.  See if they have a problem with blue epaulets and nametags for CAP personnel!   

[Hawk200]

All right, well here's the most honest answer I can give: I don't know. 

We don't have the answers either. You're beating your head against a brick wall here. We cannot give what we do not have.

Air Force uniforms for CAP, however, are a different matter.  If CAP personnel can't wear blue epaulets and nametags with the AF-style service uniform combinations, then can't all the service uniform combinations in CAP (SD & TPU) at least look uniform?  What I mean by that is, why can't all the service uniform combinations in CAP have gray epaulets and nametags?  I do not care for the gray nametags and epaulets, but CAP is one team and all the uniforms should reflect this.

Valid points. The Air Force approved how we could wear their uniform (AF Blues, BDU's, Green Flightsuits). If it's not their uniform, and they did not create it; they do not care about it.

And why on earth did the Air Force approve of the blue epaulets for the TPU but not the Air Force blue service uniform? 

The Air Force did not approve the use of their epaulets. From what we're told, they didn't care. The white shirt made it corporate enough that it wasn't on their radar. The use of those epaulets was done by the individual that the uniform is nicknamed for.

SDF's do not answer to the Air Force in any way, shape or form.

Where did I say or imply they do, Hawk200?  You need to go back and read what was written.

I did read what was written, the statement you made:

Especially when SDF's are able to. 

That statement implied that they recieved some type of approval from the Air Force. Even if you didn't intend to make that implication, that is the way it reads.

Saying that SDF's are allowed to do something that CAP is not, is a comparison that you should not have made in the first place. Those states did their own thing. We are not in a position to do the same.

They are exclusively state entities with not one single link in a chain of command to the Air Force. The Air Force has no say in what the various governor's decide to clothe their private little air forces in. If they did, they would have done it by now.

Then maybe it's time for CAP to be put under the National Guard Bureau rather than AU/AETC.  Make it the auxiliary of the Air National Guard.  See if they have a problem with blue epaulets and nametags for CAP personnel!   

Not up to us. Not up to me, not up to you, probably not up to anyone that even reads this board. It's up to the Air Force and to Congress. If you can sway them, you might be able to get it.

[JarakMaldon]

If the decision was made to resurrect the blue epaulets with the CAP embroidery, and it was made to be on all service uniform flavors, then that would work out fine, IMHO. 

But Smitty, you need to ask yourself this question: Do you want to see blue epaulets back on AF-style threads because you think it would be a nice morale boost to the organization, or is it because you want to play Air Force officer?

It seems, from my point of view, that an awful lot of the aching to get blue back comes from people who want to go around thinking they are Air Force officers.  Really, does the gray prevent you from being a good CAP troop?

[mikeylikey]

^^ Perhaps people JUST DON'T LIKE the gray!  It does not mean they want to play AF Officer.  I hate the color gray in general!  Some people like it. 

Then there is the is the issue that we don't have blue because it was a punitive measure against a group they may or may not even be part of our organization any longer.  How about the point of view that one part of teh organization (cadets) can have blue but SM's can't.  I have met my fair share of 20 year old cadets who look older than a 30 year old SM. 

Don't base the wanting blue slides with the notion we want to look like AF officers. 

[MIKE]

I don't think we really need to be as distinctive as we are... The wannabeism could be toned down with training and emphasis on proffesionalism... and possibly actual commissions on the RAFVR(T) model or similar.  But that would also mean Auxiliary with a capitol "A".

[Hawk200]

^^ Perhaps people JUST DON'T LIKE the gray!  It does not mean they want to play AF Officer.  I hate the color gray in general!  Some people like it.

But in some cases, it does mean they want to play AF Officer. Unfortunate, but not all of our people are in it for the service to their community.

How about the point of view that one part of teh organization (cadets) can have blue but SM's can't.  I have met my fair share of 20 year old cadets who look older than a 30 year old SM. 

I would definitely agree on this point. Either all or none. And I have seen a few cadet officers that are little too big for their epaulets. Cadets and senior would look more like the same organization with the same color slides.

Don't base the wanting blue slides with the notion we want to look like AF officers. 

As an all inclusive assumption, it's not accurate. But in some individual accounts, it is the reason they join. Some are more about the appearance than anything else.

[Eagle400]

If the decision was made to resurrect the blue epaulets with the CAP embroidery, and it was made to be on all service uniform flavors, then that would work out fine, IMHO.

We're on the same page, sir.  I think it is wrong for CAP personnel to be wearing blue AF epaulets without any CAP embroidery on them.  That's one big problem I have with the TPU.     

But Smitty, you need to ask yourself this question: Do you want to see blue epaulets back on AF-style threads because you think it would be a nice morale boost to the organization, or is it because you want to play Air Force officer?

I want to see blue epaulets back on AF-style uniforms for CAP because not only would it be a nice morale boost for the organization, but because that's the way it was for many years.  The Air Force took the blue epaulets and nametags away from CAP because of the actions of one general.  That means, except for the general, it was an undeserved removal.   

I am medically disqualified from the Air Force, and there is a fairly good chance I won't get a waiver.  I may (may) never have the chance to wear blue Air Force epaulets, but it would be nice to wear blue CAP epaulets and nametags.  I'm not saying I'm an Air Force wannabe, just that I would feel a lot better about wearing the AF-style uniform for CAP if it were like the kind I wore as a CAP cadet.

However, this thread is not about me.  I came here to see what you all think about the gray epaulets/nametag and if there is a better color combination out there.  I firmly believe that there is, just as there is a better color for the BDU tapes than ultramarine blue.  Dark blue looks more professional.  Well, so do dark blue epaulets.           

It seems, from my point of view, that an awful lot of the aching to get blue back comes from people who want to go around thinking they are Air Force officers.  Really, does the gray prevent you from being a good CAP troop?

No, the gray epaulets and nametags don't prevent folks from being good CAP troops.  However, for those who are unable to wear the Air Force blue due to medical reasons, it seems a little demeaning for them to be forced to wear gray epaulets and nametags instead of blue.  See the problem I have with the gray? 

What was meant to be a punishment has turned into an embarassment, in my opinion. 

[Hawk200]

No, the gray epaulets and nametags don't prevent folks from being good CAP troops.  However, for those who are unable to wear the Air Force blue due to medical reasons, it seems a little demeaning for them to be forced to wear gray epaulets and nametags instead of blue.  See the problem I have with the gray? 

What was meant to be a punishment has turned into an embarassment, in my opinion. 

You have one major flaw with your thinking. Grey epaulets were never a punishment. Grey epaulets and nametag were actually an effort to produce something coordinated, and improved appearance.

The punishment was the Maroon epaulets. Which was worn with a blue nametag. That was tacky. I wore those. Didn't like them; but I got in it to do something more in my community than to just leave buttprints in the scenery.

I would dare say that most people don't feel demeaned by wearing grey epaulets. They just hate the color. Black has been proposed, and some people don't like that either.

I'm no psyche major, but it seems like you are rather angry about not being able to serve in the military. CAP wearing blue epaulets is not going to change that fact. Trying to change the CAP uniform to something emulating the Air Force isn't going to change that. If you think it will, then I'm sorry to tell you that you're lying to yourself. And you won't be happy even if the change comes about. Because, in your heart, you'll know it's a lie.

[DeputyDog]

However, for those who are unable to wear the Air Force blue due to medical reasons, it seems a little demeaning for them to be forced to wear gray epaulets and nametags instead of blue.

It is not demeaning for me. Sure it looks odd, but it is not demeaning. No one is forcing anyone to wear any color of epaulets and nametags.

If you feel it is demeaning, then you don't join (like you). However, I can assume that most senior members (officers) can really care less about what color their epaulets are (provided, of course, that they are not pink, orange, neon green, maroon or yellow, etc).

Since we can't have blue, I see gray as an acceptable alternative on the Air Force style-uniforms.

[Mustang]

Let me ask you a question: If there was a way to do it, why has it not been done?

Because there are people in power at CAP NHQ and CAP-USAF that don't want it to happen, for whatever reason.  They don't need to give the reason, but it would be great if they did.   

In the absence of compelling evidence to the contrary, it MUST be a conspiracy! Better close your windows, the black helicopters are on their way to get you! No Smitty, the decision came not from NHQ or CAP-USAF, but from AETC/CC.  (Why TP felt that was the correct channel is anyone's guess.)

And why on earth did the Air Force approve of the blue epaulets for the TPU but not the Air Force blue service uniform?     That is a decision that puzzles me to this day. 

What on earth gave you the impression the Air Force was even asked to approve any facet of the TPU?  The Air Force has no say over CAP-distinctive uniforms and was not consulted regarding the TPU.  What CAP-USAF has said is that the Air Force did not object to the uniform, but that's not to say that they approve of it by any stretch.  What El Hefe did with the TPU was an end-run around the Air Force, plain and simple.

[ColonelJack]

What on earth gave you the impression the Air Force was even asked to approve any facet of the TPU?  The Air Force has no say over CAP-distinctive uniforms and was not consulted regarding the TPU.  What CAP-USAF has said is that the Air Force did not object to the uniform, but that's not to say that they approve of it by any stretch.  What El Hefe did with the TPU was an end-run around the Air Force, plain and simple.

Correct ... the Air Force has no say over corporate uniforms, and they don't care about our corporate uniforms, either.  They've said they don't object ... and don't have to even be asked for approval.  (That's what the CC of CAP-USAF himself said.  It doesn't matter to him or the AF one way or the other.) 

The Corporate Blues could have been designed with silver shoulder cords, purple sleeve braid, and polka-dotted ties, with blue AF officer sleeves on shoulder straps ... and the AF wouldn't have blinked an eye.  The Corporate Blues may be viewed by many as an end-run around the Air Force, but if the Air Force doesn't care and has said so, even calling the uniform an end-run loses its impact.

Jack

[RogueLeader]

No, the gray epaulets and nametags don't prevent folks from being good CAP troops.  However, for those who are unable to wear the Air Force blue due to medical reasons, it seems a little demeaning for them to be forced to wear gray epaulets and nametags instead of blue.  See the problem I have with the gray? 

What was meant to be a punishment has turned into an embarassment, in my opinion. 

Hey, I can't join the AF due to medical- or any branch for that matter.  I do not find it demeaning to wear gray nametages or epaulets.  Does that mean that I would not like to have AF Blue epaulets? No, I would like them, but they said no; plus it is not such a big deal to fuss over.  If there was a petition to the AF to get the blue back, I would sign, but I will not lose sleep over it.

[captrncap]

What about a darker gray to look more professional and then remove the ultramarine blue on BDUs and replace that with darker gray as well?

This way we are more consistent with the colors.

As far as the TPU, that was created to "punish" the AF for not allowing the blues epaulets and metal rank.

That was just WRONG in so many ways.

[ColonelJack]

[In the absence of compelling evidence to the contrary, it MUST be a conspiracy! Better close your windows, the black helicopters are on their way to get you! No Smitty, the decision came not from NHQ or CAP-USAF, but from AETC/CC.  (Why TP felt that was the correct channel is anyone's guess.)

Unless things have changed over the last few years since I retired, CAP falls under the aegis of Air University, which is a component of Air Education and Training Command.  Thus, any decisions regarding CAP do work their way up to AETC/CC.  And if he had signed off on the idea, it would have gone to the Air Force Chief of Staff for final approval.  I'm guessing (I don't know this for sure) that CAP-USAF/CC had no real issue with the idea ... AU/CC had no real issue with the idea ... but AETC/CC had a real problem with it and nixed it.  Under chain of command, once a link disapproves, the issue is dead.

Jack