I hate to ask this....

[Hawk200]

What I feel awkward is that in some instances I was supposed or should have saluted and did not. I have problems with identifying the grade on the ACU, and I am sure there were some instances I have passed officers but did not salute as I start looking for grade insignia and they walk past before I can identify the grade.

On the ACU, all rank is in one spot, center of the chest. Officer rank seems a little more "solid" than enlisted rank, there is generally more thread used to embroider the insignia. For me, I seem to be able to note it on the hat faster than on the chest.

[Shuman 14]

The rank on the center chest was first done by the French in the late 1950s. They had a buttoned flap that a rank slide was slid on and buttoned down. They wore full color in garrison and subdued in the field.

I always said we (the Army) should have done the same thing, created a mini-slide that on one side had a a full color version of our shirt epaulet and on the other UCP and a subdued rank.

Would have made life much easier all around.

[FlyTiger77]

I always said we (the Army) should have done the same thing, created a mini-slide that on one side had a a full color version of our shirt epaulet and on the other UCP and a subdued rank.

My studied opinion is that giving us back a collar for our rank and branch insignia would be easier and better still.

[Shuman 14]

I always said we (the Army) should have done the same thing, created a mini-slide that on one side had a a full color version of our shirt epaulet and on the other UCP and a subdued rank.

My studied opinion is that giving us back a collar for our rank and branch insignia would be easier and better still.

That's true as well Sir.

[Al Sayre]

The rank on the center chest was first done by the French in the late 1950s. They had a buttoned flap that a rank slide was slid on and buttoned down. They wore full color in garrison and subdued in the field.

I always said we (the Army) should have done the same thing, created a mini-slide that on one side had a a full color version of our shirt epaulet and on the other UCP and a subdued rank.

Would have made life much easier all around.

Rank slides make it easy for the snipers, they don't have to change their point of aim after identifying the officers...

[Shuman 14]

The rank on the center chest was first done by the French in the late 1950s. They had a buttoned flap that a rank slide was slid on and buttoned down. They wore full color in garrison and subdued in the field.

I always said we (the Army) should have done the same thing, created a mini-slide that on one side had a a full color version of our shirt epaulet and on the other UCP and a subdued rank.

Would have made life much easier all around.

Rank slides make it easy for the snipers, they don't have to change their point of aim after identifying the officers...

Nice! 

[Luis R. Ramos]

Al-

Don't Army officers wear grade on their caps? It may have the same results, no?

Flyer

[Shuman 14]

Al-

Don't Army officers wear grade on their caps? It may have the same results, no?

Flyer

The NVG mount covers up the rank on the helmet. 

[Critical AOA]

I myself generally wear the polo shirt, unless there is a reason to wear a uniform with rank and insignia.  I have been made uncomfortable in the past by being saluted by actual service members due to the "rank" on my BDUs or shoulderboards.  With the polo shirt, I'm just another civilian.  Regardless of what national decides I hope they give a decent phase out period so people don't go too huge an expense.

Great points.  I was only an E4 in the Army and am now a Captain in CAP.  I prefer not to wear rank insignia especially around active duty personnel for a few reasons and one is that I do not feel my CAP captain's bars deserve to be saluted by active duty even an E-1.   I would consider it especially strange and undeserved for a CAP officer who never served in the armed forces to be saluted by anybody in the armed forces regardless of the ranks of the two individuals. 

[jeders]

I myself generally wear the polo shirt, unless there is a reason to wear a uniform with rank and insignia.  I have been made uncomfortable in the past by being saluted by actual service members due to the "rank" on my BDUs or shoulderboards.  With the polo shirt, I'm just another civilian.  Regardless of what national decides I hope they give a decent phase out period so people don't go too huge an expense.

Great points.  I was only an E4 in the Army and am now a Captain in CAP.  I prefer not to wear rank insignia especially around active duty personnel for a few reasons and one is that I do not feel my CAP captain's bars deserve to be saluted by active duty even an E-1.   I would consider it especially strange and undeserved for a CAP officer who never served in the armed forces to be saluted by anybody in the armed forces regardless of the ranks of the two individuals.

This right here is just about the single biggest problem in CAP. Those who feel that CAP grade is not worthy.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Jeders-

I concur.

Why they decide to accept it then hide it is beyond my understanding. If they are so ashamed they should return it.

Flyer

[Shuman 14]

I myself generally wear the polo shirt, unless there is a reason to wear a uniform with rank and insignia.  I have been made uncomfortable in the past by being saluted by actual service members due to the "rank" on my BDUs or shoulderboards.  With the polo shirt, I'm just another civilian.  Regardless of what national decides I hope they give a decent phase out period so people don't go too huge an expense.

Great points.  I was only an E4 in the Army and am now a Captain in CAP.  I prefer not to wear rank insignia especially around active duty personnel for a few reasons and one is that I do not feel my CAP captain's bars deserve to be saluted by active duty even an E-1.   I would consider it especially strange and undeserved for a CAP officer who never served in the armed forces to be saluted by anybody in the armed forces regardless of the ranks of the two individuals.

I just think that's so wrong. There is an old saying that you salute the rank... not the person that wears it.

Is a civilian police officer required to be saluted... no, but if an Inspector (ie Colonel) or a Chief  (ie General Officer) passed me I'd salute him/her out of respect.

Same with a CAP Officer or USCGAux Officeholder who out ranks me, I'd salute and offer the greeting of the day.

It's a simple matter of respect, I know what it takes to earn ranks and titles and will salute them for that alone if nothing else.

[Storm Chaser]

Military personnel are NOT required to salute CAP officers. If someone does, just simply return the courtesy by saluting back. There's nothing wrong with that and I'm talking as an Air Force officer here. There's a difference between trolling for salutes and extending customs and courtesies.

Now, I don't consider CAP rank unworthy. I don't think anyone should. But at the same time, the reality is that attaining rank in CAP is somewhat easier than in the military. The requirements are just not the same; nothing wrong with that since CAP serves a different purpose. But, in my opinion, that makes grades between the military and CAP not equal. That being said, that's not a good reason to feel ashamed, unworthy or that you need to hide your rank. We're a civilian paramilitary organization and the Air Force Auxiliary. We use ranks; we have for decades. If wearing CAP ranks was inappropriate, even when working with active duty personnel, the Air Force and CAP would not allow it. But as it stands, there's nothing wrong with wearing your CAP uniform with grade insignia that you've earned, especially when you demonstrate professionalism and competence when doing so.

I have nothing against the Golf Shirt (I use it when it seems appropriate), but I also wear my CAP uniform with pride and try to provide an example to others, especially cadets, by wearing it properly and extending the appropriate customs and courtesies. I respect those who choose not to wear a military-style uniform, but wearing a uniform and appropriate grade insignia is part of our tradition.

[Critical AOA]

The thing is that rank in CAP is pretty easy to come by versus what it takes to earn it in the military.  While what it takes to make Captain in the Army, Marines & Air Force or Lieutenant in the Navy are comparable to each other and therefore are deserving of the same respect and consideration from members of the other services, what it takes to make the same rank in CAP is far, far less and is therefore not deserving of the same.  Anyone who believes otherwise is only fooling himself.

I am not adverse to a rank structure in CAP, it has its place.  However as long as its insignia is the same as the military and people in CAP wear an Air Force style uniform, I will continue to avoid wearing it.  If all of our uniforms were distinctive and our grade insignia were different than the military, not only would I be far more prone to wear it but so would numerous others. 

[Brad]

I myself generally wear the polo shirt, unless there is a reason to wear a uniform with rank and insignia.  I have been made uncomfortable in the past by being saluted by actual service members due to the "rank" on my BDUs or shoulderboards.  With the polo shirt, I'm just another civilian.  Regardless of what national decides I hope they give a decent phase out period so people don't go too huge an expense.

Great points.  I was only an E4 in the Army and am now a Captain in CAP.  I prefer not to wear rank insignia especially around active duty personnel for a few reasons and one is that I do not feel my CAP captain's bars deserve to be saluted by active duty even an E-1.   I would consider it especially strange and undeserved for a CAP officer who never served in the armed forces to be saluted by anybody in the armed forces regardless of the ranks of the two individuals.

For what it's worth I tried to go active duty. Was working towards my Ensign commission through NROTC but ultimately got disqualified non-waiverable due to sleepwalking. Regardless, I still took the oath to support and defend the Constituion, and CAP is my way of making good on it. It keeps me in uniform and allows me to make good on my oath to the best of my ability. Do I go trolling for salutes? No, but I return them gladly if offered. I've even had a retired USMC Master Sergeant who I could tell had seen some things come up to me and offer me a salute, and I could tell he knew I was CAP, but he still told me all the same, "Thank you for your service, sir." Did I protest? Did I say there's no need to salute me? No, I returned his salute properly and carried on.

[JoeTomasone]

And let's not forget a few important points:

1. We do serve our Nation, just not in a combatant role.   In fact, we are authorized to carry out ANY non-combatant role that SECAF desires us to.

2. A salute is a military GREETING, not some indication of subservience.  I have not been able to identify any regulation for any branch that would prohibit a salute to a CAP member (or, for that matter, to anyone).   AFI 10-2701, "ORGANIZATION AND FUNCTION OF THE CIVIL AIR PATROL", specifically states that CAP members are not entitled to courtesies, but doesn't go so far as to prohibit them.   

3. CAP is a curious, contradictory mixture of civilian and military.   We are not under UCMJ, but we are subject to Posse Commitatus.  We are volunteers, but are considered instrumentalities of the United States when performing AFAMs.    We don't carry CAC cards, but have a military liaison command (CAP-USAF). 

We may not be entitled to courtesies (and this is not a bad thing), but we are clearly not (as an organization) simply ordinary civilians. 


Now personally, I view being saluted by military personnel the same way I view being thanked for my service by someone on the street.   Most of the time it is out of ignorance of what CAP is, however, in some cases, it has been with full knowledge of what and who we are.     I may not carry a rifle in a foreign land and kill the enemies of my country, but I do serve my country, much more than than average person, and I believe that what we do is important.    I am comfortable if someone chooses to recognize that. 

Now, there is one interesting point that was raised above - that CAP Officers do not go through what military officers do to earn their grade.  This is true.   But consider this:  A graduate of a service academy comes out as an Officer - what did they "go through" that a civilian college student did not, other than sign a piece of paper?    I would submit that this is not as simple as many are making it out to be, and that bickering about it is largely pointless.   If you are saluted, return the salute.   If you are thanked for serving, acknowledge it gracefully.   If the circumstances warrant and permit, tell our story.   But don't embarrass someone who offers a salute or thanks by telling them that they shouldn't or that it's not required.   Not only are you worthy of a greeting or to be thanked for your CAP service, but you could actually insult someone who knows [darn]ed well what CAP is and was offering you a token of respect, only to have it tossed back in their face.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Joe-

Nice words, specifically in that some that salute may well know who we are, and by saying "Do not salute me, I am CAP" you are slapping them in their face.

:clap:

Flyer

[Alaric]

Joe-

Nice words, specifically in that some that salute may well know who we are, and by saying "Do not salute me, I am CAP" you are slapping them in their face.

:clap:

Flyer

I agree and would always return a salute, I just remove the possibility from the equation by wearing the polo shirt

[Al Sayre]

Do you think that U.S. Military personnel should salute officers of foreign freindly nations?  (They are required to do so.)  How do you know that their requirements for advancement are the same as the U.S. Military?  For many years, you could buy a commission in the army of many nations, and while I don't know off the top of my head if that practice still exists, it wouldn't suprise me if it did.  What about some of the third world countries where the dictator of the day appoints people to their grades based on political convenience/reward/payback?  If they are a "friendly nation" our military personnel are still required to render customs and courtesies regardless of how they got the grade.

Consider the different branches within our own military.  For example the promotion criteria for a Naval line officer is much different from that of a medical or dental officer, yet they wear the same grade insignia and receive the same customs and courtesies.  Neither is less worthy of receiving a salute and a polite "good morning sir" from the other branch.

The point is that no one's grade is more or less worthy of a salute, be it CAP, U.S. Military, Local VFD, etc.  The grade is relative to the oganization that provides it.  There is no reason to hide your CAP rank or feel ashamed of receiving a salute from U.S. Military personnel.  The person giving the salute is probably just following what he/she has been taught about customs and courtesies by his/her respective organization.  Just return the salute and drive on.  Trying to tell people they don't have to salute you only confuses them and makes them feel like they have done something wrong.  Is that really the response you want to give to someone who is only trying to do the right/polite thing?  The correct response is to return the salute and greeting and carry on with your day.

[jeders]

Joe-

Nice words, specifically in that some that salute may well know who we are, and by saying "Do not salute me, I am CAP" you are slapping them in their face.

:clap:

Flyer

I agree and would always return a salute, I just remove the possibility from the equation by wearing the polo shirt

I'm picking on you because yours was the closest response that works to my means, and I apologize. Do you give proper greetings when you wear your polo? How about when you're at work or at the grocery store? The point is that, just like say good morning and calling someone sir or ma'am is part of being polite in everyday society, a salute is a part of being polite in a military/paramilitary society. If you don't want to be polite and show someone respect, then I have to assume that you are not worthy of receiving respect. Therefore not worth my time.

Again I'm picking on you only due to proximity, I'm sure you show respect normally just as any polite person would.