I hate to ask this....

[NorCal21]

I can't argue what you've experienced, but I can tell you that it's not a typical situation in IL, so that calls into question the
where and what of your visit(s) there.

We have a few struggling squadrons with leaders who "can't be bothered", but that doesn't make them typical or allow for them
to be used to make policy.  The successful units have adult leaders in proper uniforms for the duty of the day.

Sometimes that's a golf shirt, but not "typically".

And if we assume it is or was, it is just likely because of the attitude of "who cares" that a lot of members wearing the USAF-styles
exhibit, as if the experience of 1/4-1/3rd of the adult membership was somehow irrelevant or lessor then those who wear the blues.

This just points out, with a bright light, why we need a uniform, not a menu.

Instead of wasting their time with HSO regs and new medical forms, they ought to be addressing that actually important issue.

Well as I said my visits have been to general squadron meetings. Yes, flights suits are seen but usually only when going flying. Mess dress is seen when needed. But on average, as I said, my experience has been its either AF-style uniforms or the polo. I can look back at squadrons I've been to and basically remember the number of people who were wearing the white aviator shirt. It generally was no more than one person a squadron if that. At NESA, and at COWG SLS done at the AFA, it was all either AF-style or polo shirt. At the SLS the only two not in those uniforms were in white aviators, but they were also from the Boulder squadron which generally is opposed to military style uniforms... the city of  Boulder that is.

Yes, I have seen every uniform out there. I'm just talking in generalities.

Again you're taking my "who cares" completely out of context and reading it with your own bias.

Once again my comment of "who cares" was meant to say that for the purpose of this thread it is really only the AF-style uniform we are having issues with, that its the one nearly everyone is concerned with, and that the corporate wear generally isn't an issue and probably won't be addressed. So again, who cares about corporate wear when coming up with a new manual? The issue of corporate wear is generally irrelevant simply because its not an issue to begin with. Its a few basic styles, worn by CAP personnel without many problems; therefore, it most likely won't be addressed with changes in the manual.

For example... someone says hey there's a new VW coming out for 2014. Everyone is talking about the new style and someone comes up and mentions the 2014 Jetta. The new Jetta won't be new at all other than its a 2014. No changes. So, who cares? Its not relevant to the conversation. Its not to say its not important to some, but its not the main focus of either the general conversation people have about VW or of what changes are in store that have been eagerly awaited.

[NorCal21]

The only USAF uniform that has a unit patch on it these days is the Flight Suit.

Yes, but the BDUs, when worn by the AF, had unit patches. If CAP were wearing ABUs I would expect to mirror their policy. So again mirror the AF policy for BDUs. Obviously we can't mirror ABU policies with BDUs because they are two different uniforms. However, one could make the argument we can still mirror ABU wear but with CAP distinctions which again goes back to what I said. Mirror the AF but with CAP exceptions but make those exceptions standardized.

[NorCal21]

And none of them require the US flag. 

I don't thin we should wear the flag patch. Are we confused about what country we're in or serving? I could see it being required for IACE. Its really only the Army you seeing wearing the flag patch with some exceptions here and there on a smaller scale.

[UH60guy]

And even then if I recall, the flag was only a recent addition to the Army uniform too. I joined in 2003, but I had some time as a dual-enrolled ROTC cadet / national guard cadet where our unit was deploying in 2001-2002. I can't remember what we used to do on the BDUs back then, but if I recall right, they only sewed the flag on when they were about to go overseas. I think we started the flag patch as a permanent thing following the events of 9/11 (when we also went to all BDU all the time, no more class Bs around the office).

I could be completely wrong though. It's been known to happen quite often actually.

[Critical AOA]

From my experience, if you drop into the average senior or composite squadron during their normal meeting when there is nothing special going on, the vast majority of senior members will be in the golf shirt, a few will be in the flight suit and a few in the corporate shirt.  You will usually only catch a senior in an AF style uniform at more formal events or if they are running with the cadets and are trying to set some sort of example.  There is absolutely no need to wear an AF style uniform 99% of the time for most seniors.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I disagree, if anything, to minimize maintenance of multiple uniforms worn to different events.

I own one AF Blues in addition to my BDUs.

My choices are "Do I wear the Service coat with the long or short sleeve shirt?" as opposed to "Do I wear the Whites/greys?" "Do I wear the polo?"

But I knew a senior member from a different squadron.He had meetings as a Boy Scout leader the same time he had a CAP squadron meeting. He wore his CAP polo under his scout shirt. Scout meeting over, he went to the CAP meeting and removed his scout shirt, did not even have to change a shirt!

Flyer

[vento]

For what it is worth, in my Senior squadron (SoCal with no cadets) 95% wear the polo shirt at meetings all the time. At Wing conference we see a mix of Corporate and AF blues. I've only seen once when most of our members wore the AF blue and that was at one of our member's funeral.

[SpookyDude]

From my experience it really comes down to each squadron's culture. Some are more military and wear blues or whites/grays, and some are more casual and wear the polos. I think it really is up to the Sqdn Cmdr to set the tone he/she wants to see.

[Eclipse]

I don't thin we should wear the flag patch. Are we confused about what country we're in or serving?

So simple pride as an American serving their country in uniform isn't enough?

If foreign service starts being a delimiter of wearing an American flag on a uniform, you're going to need to spend a lot
of time rounding up Police, Fire, Public Service and a host of other agencies hat all wear flags.

[Fubar]

I hope they post the revision for public comment. Obviously they'll get a lot of it, but hopefully it will avoid some of the recent obvious gaffes that have resulted in regs getting updated a few days later.

The experts we have here should ensure everything is in order plus spot any obvious loop-holes or ambiguity. It will mean the published version will take longer to get out, but it will also mean what gets published will be right.

[NorCal21]

From my experience, if you drop into the average senior or composite squadron during their normal meeting when there is nothing special going on, the vast majority of senior members will be in the golf shirt, a few will be in the flight suit and a few in the corporate shirt.  You will usually only catch a senior in an AF style uniform at more formal events or if they are running with the cadets and are trying to set some sort of example.  There is absolutely no need to wear an AF style uniform 99% of the time for most seniors.

To the last point I agree. Wear it if you're working with cadets, or representing CAP. Otherwise I'm not getting all dressed up in uniform for an hour  or two meeting.

[NorCal21]

I don't thin we should wear the flag patch. Are we confused about what country we're in or serving?

So simple pride as an American serving their country in uniform isn't enough?

If foreign service starts being a delimiter of wearing an American flag on a uniform, you're going to need to spend a lot
of time rounding up Police, Fire, Public Service and a host of other agencies hat all wear flags.

I don't get your first point. What are you saying? My point was there's no need to wear the flag as a patch. Heck, most uniforms has "U.S." on them somewhere.

As for civilian agencies wearing them I don't care, but I will say that they need to worry about wearing it facing the right direction more so than whether they should be wearing them at all.

[Devil Doc]

Marines do not wear the Flag Patch, Unit Patch, or Specialty Patch on any uniform.

[NorCal21]

Marines do not wear the Flag Patch, Unit Patch, or Specialty Patch on any uniform.

Correct. Heck, when I went to boot camp in 1994 we were still being given the old iron on Eagle, Globe and Anchors with U.S.M.C. as part of the template. We were told to cut off the U.S.M.C. part because it was no longer needed now that we wore nametapes. I can't remember exactly when it was but I'm pretty sure we started wearing nametapes around 1991 or so.

[Eclipse]

I don't thin we should wear the flag patch. Are we confused about what country we're in or serving?

So simple pride as an American serving their country in uniform isn't enough?

If foreign service starts being a delimiter of wearing an American flag on a uniform, you're going to need to spend a lot
of time rounding up Police, Fire, Public Service and a host of other agencies hat all wear flags.

I don't get your first point. What are you saying? My point was there's no need to wear the flag as a patch. Heck, most uniforms has "U.S." on them somewhere.

As for civilian agencies wearing them I don't care, but I will say that they need to worry about wearing it facing the right direction more so than whether they should be wearing them at all.

My point is that lots of organizations wear the US flag for the simple reason that they are proud of it.  There doesn't need to be anything more then that.  Any issues
of being deployed in a foreign nation,  wannabeism, blah, blah, blah, fail since the US flag is simply something to be proud to display, especially considering our place
as a military auxiliary.

We >are< a "civilian agency" as many choose to try and use as some sort of denigration when necessary, and it >is< on properly when worn as it is.

[NorCal21]

My point is that lots of organizations wear the US flag for the simple reason that they are proud of it.  There doesn't need to be anything more then that.  Any issues
of being deployed in a foreign nation,  wannabeism, blah, blah, blah, fail since the US flag is simply something to be proud to display, especially considering our place
as a military auxiliary.

We >are< a "civilian agency" as many choose to try and use as some sort of denigration when necessary, and it >is< on properly when worn as it is.

OK, thanks for explaining. I just wasn't getting your point based on wording.

I don't disagree with you in what you're saying. Its just that coming from the Marines I'm used to not wearing a lot of extra stuff on the uniform simply because I'm proud of something. Marines wear service identifier (US Marines or EGA), rank, ribbons and devices. That's it except service stripes. Not unit patches, no squadron patches, no flags, no CBIDs. There's no need. One major reason I never liked Army uniforms. Just entirely too much stuff on them. There's no need to display everthing you've ever done in the service on your coat.

I'm not opposed to a flag patch in principle. I just think its an extra item not needed.

[stillamarine]

That has not always been the case. Marines did wear divisional patches up til around the end of War 2. Don't forget Shore Party still wears their red patches.

[Alaric]

I myself generally wear the polo shirt, unless there is a reason to wear a uniform with rank and insignia.  I have been made uncomfortable in the past by being saluted by actual service members due to the "rank" on my BDUs or shoulderboards.  With the polo shirt, I'm just another civilian.  Regardless of what national decides I hope they give a decent phase out period so people don't go too huge an expense.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I have been saluted by active duty, Army National Guard, and Air National Guard members, I have started salutes for same, and do not feel in the very least awkward about it.

One time as I was going into a hotel, a Petty Officer was walking out the door. He held the door and saluted acknowledging I was in CAP. Another time I was going to an Air National Guard base to teach a portion of an SLS and the Security Guard, a Sergeant saluted me then a First Lieutenant after I identified myself and showed an ID.

What I feel awkward is that in some instances I was supposed or should have saluted and did not. I have problems with identifying the grade on the ACU, and I am sure there were some instances I have passed officers but did not salute as I start looking for grade insignia and they walk past before I can identify the grade. Another time a National Guard captain in mufti walked into the armory a squadron I used to be meets. Since my cadets opened the door to another NG, he walked in also and either I asked for his ID or "can we help you" or for some reason he decided to pull out his DOD ID. I should have saluted as I recognized him but did not.

I do not troll for salutes, but will accept them as I give them... without remorse!

Flyer

[UH60guy]

I have been saluted by active duty, Army National Guard, and Air National Guard members, I have started salutes for same, and do not feel in the very least awkward about it.

I applaud you for that- We seem to put waaaay too much thought behind salutes, and devote a seemingly inordinate amount of space in new member guidance publications about the salute in my opinion. It gets to the point where cadets are sometimes anxious/embarrassed about it because saluting is talked about so much. It's easier to just remember if it's shiny (and for officers, outranks you regardless of service/CAP status), salute it. It's a show of respect, nothing too fancy. If you accidentally salute, it takes more time to awkwardly apologize than to silently laugh to yourself afterwards.

On the same token, I don't worry about it when someone fails to salute me (and I can tell it wasn't an intentional slight). The other day, I left the PX in Army ACUs. Some poor A1C was coming in and obviously couldn't see the rank (gold rank is hard to see on ACUs, and in a different place than USAF uniforms). I could see her confusion, straining her eyes to figure out what uniform I was in, brief indecision- eventually her hand raised just as I passed, but I just returned it and moved on, not breaking stride. No need to make it awkward for anyone.