I hate to ask this....

[SpookyDude]

But is there any word from the National Uniform Committee yet on a new CAP39-1 revision and uniform combinations?

(Not trying to open a can of worms here....just checking in)  :angel:

[NIN]

"It is in progress"

[AlphaSigOU]

Don't hold your breath... 

[Pylon]

It's about 80% done.  It is being actively worked upon right now by a dedicated team of members.  It will be a vast improvement over the current version and it's been a major undertaking for the committee.

[SpookyDude]

It's about 80% done.  It is being actively worked upon right now by a dedicated team of members.  It will be a vast improvement over the current version and it's been a major undertaking for the committee.

Anyone willing to throw us a bone and let us know anything that "may" be included? 

[lordmonar]

It's about 80% done.  It is being actively worked upon right now by a dedicated team of members.  It will be a vast improvement over the current version and it's been a major undertaking for the committee.

Anyone willing to throw us a bone and let us know anything that "may" be included? 

No.....they got tired of fighting with every Tom, Dick and Harry over pet peeves and empires......so they have been keeping a tight hold on every thing......last I heard (about 3 months ago) the plan was to have something to brief at the national boards.....I don't know if that is before or after it gets sent to CAP-USAF for comment.

So....my guess is nothing until Aug.

[Private Investigator]

It's about 80% done.  It is being actively worked upon right now by a dedicated team of members.  It will be a vast improvement over the current version and it's been a major undertaking for the committee.

Anyone willing to throw us a bone and let us know anything that "may" be included? 

The CAP kilt will not happen, otherwise "TOP SECRET".

BTW, welcome aboard the CAP Talk  :clap:

[SpookyDude]

Thanks - probably better that way anyway. Just spill the whole thing at once when it's ready and let the chips (and wholly unregulated chatter) fall where they may. 

[NorCal21]

To be honest, I don't know why CAP-USAF doesn't just sit down, mirror the AF regs with standardized CAP insignia in place of AF on AF-style uniforms. As for the corporate uniforms, who cares. Most who wear 'em usually are polos anyway.

When I say mirror AF regs I mean the AF requires a wing and squadron patch. They shouldn't be optional on CAP because when they are you've got cadets in formation who don't appear uniform. Some have a squadron patch and some don't, etc. I know the myriad of problems associated with it mostly being cost. Heck, I don't know the last time I visited a squadron where there wasn't at least one cadet not wearing the wrong USA patch, or having it on backwards or on the wrong side.

Anyway, mirror the AF but using CAP insignia in place of where the AF goes and there ya go.

[Eclipse]

When I say mirror AF regs I mean the AF requires a wing and squadron patch. They shouldn't be optional on CAP because when they are you've got cadets in formation who don't appear uniform. Some have a squadron patch and some don't, etc. I know the myriad of problems associated with it mostly being cost. Heck, I don't know the last time I visited a squadron where there wasn't at least one cadet not wearing the wrong USA patch, or having it on backwards or on the wrong side.

For starters, not all units have an insignia.

As to the corporate sweep - your "who cares" account for 1/4-1/3 or more of the senior membership, and maybe they wear the
golf shirt by you, but it's not "most" by a long shot.

[NorCal21]

When I say mirror AF regs I mean the AF requires a wing and squadron patch. They shouldn't be optional on CAP because when they are you've got cadets in formation who don't appear uniform. Some have a squadron patch and some don't, etc. I know the myriad of problems associated with it mostly being cost. Heck, I don't know the last time I visited a squadron where there wasn't at least one cadet not wearing the wrong USA patch, or having it on backwards or on the wrong side.

For starters, not all units have an insignia.

As to the corporate sweep - your "who cares" account for 1/4-1/3 or more of the senior membership, and maybe they wear the
golf shirt by you, but it's not "most" by a long shot.

I understand not all units have insignia. Nothing is stopping them from creating one. Could be a good leadership test for cadets or others.

My "who cares" comment wasn't meant to be derisive. I was trying to say its not as big of a deal as what the regulations are for the AF-style uniforms. If CAP wants to change to black or khaki trousers or both from the grey fine. There really wouldn't be much that CAP would do to the corporate uniform that would matter to most people as its essentially just civilian clothing anyway. Yes some people would complain that they'd have to buy black trousers now, or a white polo instead of the blue. Either way, my point was that the only regulations that really matter to the vast majority because of such confusion are the AF-style. I say vast majority because ALL of the cadets are affected and most seniors.

[NorCal21]

but it's not "most" by a long shot.

Fine, let me give the caveat that it is MOST based on my experience. I have been to CAP units in FL, GA, SC, NC, VA, IN, IL, CO, AZ, CA, WA and HI. I can, to the best of my memory, count on both hands the number of seniors who wore something other than the golf shirt if they weren't in AF-style uniforms.

That's my experience and that's where the comment came from.

[Eclipse]

^ What?  Are you talking about low-impact, small squadrons?

That's not remotely true on any larger scale.

You've been in 12 wings and seen less then 10 people total, in anything but a USAF-Style or a golf shirt?

What kind of activities are you participating in?

What about field uniforms, flight suits, more formal occasions?

[NorCal21]

^ What?  Are you talking about low-impact, small squadrons?

That's not remotely true on any larger scale.

You've been in 12 wings and seen less then 10 people total, in anything but a USAF-Style or a golf shirt?

What kind of activities are yo participating in?

What about field uniforms, flight suits, more formal occasions?

I'm talking about squadron meetings. I didn't think that I had to specify special activities. Of course people who are flying may be in a flight suit, or at a formal event will be in blues jackets. If I have to provide for every single possible exception to anything I post we'd never get anywhere. The average CAP event is a squadron meeting. In all of those wings, over the last five years, this has been my experience.

Personally, I don't see why my experience would have to jive with yours anyway. No two people are alike, nor would they have the same experience. Regardless of this point, it doesn't change my original point that mirroring AF regs for AF-style uniforms would cut down on the confusion and debate.

[Eclipse]

I can't argue what you've experienced, but I can tell you that it's not a typical situation in IL, so that calls into question the
where and what of your visit(s) there.

We have a few struggling squadrons with leaders who "can't be bothered", but that doesn't make them typical or allow for them
to be used to make policy.  The successful units have adult leaders in proper uniforms for the duty of the day.

Sometimes that's a golf shirt, but not "typically".

And if we assume it is or was, it is just likely because of the attitude of "who cares" that a lot of members wearing the USAF-styles
exhibit, as if the experience of 1/4-1/3rd of the adult membership was somehow irrelevant or lessor then those who wear the blues.

This just points out, with a bright light, why we need a uniform, not a menu.

Instead of wasting their time with HSO regs and new medical forms, they ought to be addressing that actually important issue.

[PHall]

To be honest, I don't know why CAP-USAF doesn't just sit down, mirror the AF regs with standardized CAP insignia in place of AF on AF-style uniforms. As for the corporate uniforms, who cares. Most who wear 'em usually are polos anyway.

When I say mirror AF regs I mean the AF requires a wing and squadron patch. They shouldn't be optional on CAP because when they are you've got cadets in formation who don't appear uniform. Some have a squadron patch and some don't, etc. I know the myriad of problems associated with it mostly being cost. Heck, I don't know the last time I visited a squadron where there wasn't at least one cadet not wearing the wrong USA patch, or having it on backwards or on the wrong side.

Anyway, mirror the AF but using CAP insignia in place of where the AF goes and there ya go.

The only USAF uniform that has a unit patch on it these days is the Flight Suit.

[LGM30GMCC]

And none of them require the US flag. 

[lordmonar]

And none of them require the US flag. 

No AFSOC and AMC (IIRC) have flag patches on their flight suits. 

[JeffDG]

You've been in 12 wings and seen less then 10 people total, in anything but a USAF-Style or a golf shirt?

I saw more than that in the Whites last weekend at our CI.

[Майор Хаткевич]

My unit has at least 5 every meeting.

[NorCal21]

I can't argue what you've experienced, but I can tell you that it's not a typical situation in IL, so that calls into question the
where and what of your visit(s) there.

We have a few struggling squadrons with leaders who "can't be bothered", but that doesn't make them typical or allow for them
to be used to make policy.  The successful units have adult leaders in proper uniforms for the duty of the day.

Sometimes that's a golf shirt, but not "typically".

And if we assume it is or was, it is just likely because of the attitude of "who cares" that a lot of members wearing the USAF-styles
exhibit, as if the experience of 1/4-1/3rd of the adult membership was somehow irrelevant or lessor then those who wear the blues.

This just points out, with a bright light, why we need a uniform, not a menu.

Instead of wasting their time with HSO regs and new medical forms, they ought to be addressing that actually important issue.

Well as I said my visits have been to general squadron meetings. Yes, flights suits are seen but usually only when going flying. Mess dress is seen when needed. But on average, as I said, my experience has been its either AF-style uniforms or the polo. I can look back at squadrons I've been to and basically remember the number of people who were wearing the white aviator shirt. It generally was no more than one person a squadron if that. At NESA, and at COWG SLS done at the AFA, it was all either AF-style or polo shirt. At the SLS the only two not in those uniforms were in white aviators, but they were also from the Boulder squadron which generally is opposed to military style uniforms... the city of  Boulder that is.

Yes, I have seen every uniform out there. I'm just talking in generalities.

Again you're taking my "who cares" completely out of context and reading it with your own bias.

Once again my comment of "who cares" was meant to say that for the purpose of this thread it is really only the AF-style uniform we are having issues with, that its the one nearly everyone is concerned with, and that the corporate wear generally isn't an issue and probably won't be addressed. So again, who cares about corporate wear when coming up with a new manual? The issue of corporate wear is generally irrelevant simply because its not an issue to begin with. Its a few basic styles, worn by CAP personnel without many problems; therefore, it most likely won't be addressed with changes in the manual.

For example... someone says hey there's a new VW coming out for 2014. Everyone is talking about the new style and someone comes up and mentions the 2014 Jetta. The new Jetta won't be new at all other than its a 2014. No changes. So, who cares? Its not relevant to the conversation. Its not to say its not important to some, but its not the main focus of either the general conversation people have about VW or of what changes are in store that have been eagerly awaited.

[NorCal21]

The only USAF uniform that has a unit patch on it these days is the Flight Suit.

Yes, but the BDUs, when worn by the AF, had unit patches. If CAP were wearing ABUs I would expect to mirror their policy. So again mirror the AF policy for BDUs. Obviously we can't mirror ABU policies with BDUs because they are two different uniforms. However, one could make the argument we can still mirror ABU wear but with CAP distinctions which again goes back to what I said. Mirror the AF but with CAP exceptions but make those exceptions standardized.

[NorCal21]

And none of them require the US flag. 

I don't thin we should wear the flag patch. Are we confused about what country we're in or serving? I could see it being required for IACE. Its really only the Army you seeing wearing the flag patch with some exceptions here and there on a smaller scale.

[UH60guy]

And even then if I recall, the flag was only a recent addition to the Army uniform too. I joined in 2003, but I had some time as a dual-enrolled ROTC cadet / national guard cadet where our unit was deploying in 2001-2002. I can't remember what we used to do on the BDUs back then, but if I recall right, they only sewed the flag on when they were about to go overseas. I think we started the flag patch as a permanent thing following the events of 9/11 (when we also went to all BDU all the time, no more class Bs around the office).

I could be completely wrong though. It's been known to happen quite often actually.

[Critical AOA]

From my experience, if you drop into the average senior or composite squadron during their normal meeting when there is nothing special going on, the vast majority of senior members will be in the golf shirt, a few will be in the flight suit and a few in the corporate shirt.  You will usually only catch a senior in an AF style uniform at more formal events or if they are running with the cadets and are trying to set some sort of example.  There is absolutely no need to wear an AF style uniform 99% of the time for most seniors.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I disagree, if anything, to minimize maintenance of multiple uniforms worn to different events.

I own one AF Blues in addition to my BDUs.

My choices are "Do I wear the Service coat with the long or short sleeve shirt?" as opposed to "Do I wear the Whites/greys?" "Do I wear the polo?"

But I knew a senior member from a different squadron.He had meetings as a Boy Scout leader the same time he had a CAP squadron meeting. He wore his CAP polo under his scout shirt. Scout meeting over, he went to the CAP meeting and removed his scout shirt, did not even have to change a shirt!

Flyer

[vento]

For what it is worth, in my Senior squadron (SoCal with no cadets) 95% wear the polo shirt at meetings all the time. At Wing conference we see a mix of Corporate and AF blues. I've only seen once when most of our members wore the AF blue and that was at one of our member's funeral.

[SpookyDude]

From my experience it really comes down to each squadron's culture. Some are more military and wear blues or whites/grays, and some are more casual and wear the polos. I think it really is up to the Sqdn Cmdr to set the tone he/she wants to see.

[Eclipse]

I don't thin we should wear the flag patch. Are we confused about what country we're in or serving?

So simple pride as an American serving their country in uniform isn't enough?

If foreign service starts being a delimiter of wearing an American flag on a uniform, you're going to need to spend a lot
of time rounding up Police, Fire, Public Service and a host of other agencies hat all wear flags.

[Fubar]

I hope they post the revision for public comment. Obviously they'll get a lot of it, but hopefully it will avoid some of the recent obvious gaffes that have resulted in regs getting updated a few days later.

The experts we have here should ensure everything is in order plus spot any obvious loop-holes or ambiguity. It will mean the published version will take longer to get out, but it will also mean what gets published will be right.

[NorCal21]

From my experience, if you drop into the average senior or composite squadron during their normal meeting when there is nothing special going on, the vast majority of senior members will be in the golf shirt, a few will be in the flight suit and a few in the corporate shirt.  You will usually only catch a senior in an AF style uniform at more formal events or if they are running with the cadets and are trying to set some sort of example.  There is absolutely no need to wear an AF style uniform 99% of the time for most seniors.

To the last point I agree. Wear it if you're working with cadets, or representing CAP. Otherwise I'm not getting all dressed up in uniform for an hour  or two meeting.

[NorCal21]

I don't thin we should wear the flag patch. Are we confused about what country we're in or serving?

So simple pride as an American serving their country in uniform isn't enough?

If foreign service starts being a delimiter of wearing an American flag on a uniform, you're going to need to spend a lot
of time rounding up Police, Fire, Public Service and a host of other agencies hat all wear flags.

I don't get your first point. What are you saying? My point was there's no need to wear the flag as a patch. Heck, most uniforms has "U.S." on them somewhere.

As for civilian agencies wearing them I don't care, but I will say that they need to worry about wearing it facing the right direction more so than whether they should be wearing them at all.

[Devil Doc]

Marines do not wear the Flag Patch, Unit Patch, or Specialty Patch on any uniform.

[NorCal21]

Marines do not wear the Flag Patch, Unit Patch, or Specialty Patch on any uniform.

Correct. Heck, when I went to boot camp in 1994 we were still being given the old iron on Eagle, Globe and Anchors with U.S.M.C. as part of the template. We were told to cut off the U.S.M.C. part because it was no longer needed now that we wore nametapes. I can't remember exactly when it was but I'm pretty sure we started wearing nametapes around 1991 or so.

[Eclipse]

I don't thin we should wear the flag patch. Are we confused about what country we're in or serving?

So simple pride as an American serving their country in uniform isn't enough?

If foreign service starts being a delimiter of wearing an American flag on a uniform, you're going to need to spend a lot
of time rounding up Police, Fire, Public Service and a host of other agencies hat all wear flags.

I don't get your first point. What are you saying? My point was there's no need to wear the flag as a patch. Heck, most uniforms has "U.S." on them somewhere.

As for civilian agencies wearing them I don't care, but I will say that they need to worry about wearing it facing the right direction more so than whether they should be wearing them at all.

My point is that lots of organizations wear the US flag for the simple reason that they are proud of it.  There doesn't need to be anything more then that.  Any issues
of being deployed in a foreign nation,  wannabeism, blah, blah, blah, fail since the US flag is simply something to be proud to display, especially considering our place
as a military auxiliary.

We >are< a "civilian agency" as many choose to try and use as some sort of denigration when necessary, and it >is< on properly when worn as it is.

[NorCal21]

My point is that lots of organizations wear the US flag for the simple reason that they are proud of it.  There doesn't need to be anything more then that.  Any issues
of being deployed in a foreign nation,  wannabeism, blah, blah, blah, fail since the US flag is simply something to be proud to display, especially considering our place
as a military auxiliary.

We >are< a "civilian agency" as many choose to try and use as some sort of denigration when necessary, and it >is< on properly when worn as it is.

OK, thanks for explaining. I just wasn't getting your point based on wording.

I don't disagree with you in what you're saying. Its just that coming from the Marines I'm used to not wearing a lot of extra stuff on the uniform simply because I'm proud of something. Marines wear service identifier (US Marines or EGA), rank, ribbons and devices. That's it except service stripes. Not unit patches, no squadron patches, no flags, no CBIDs. There's no need. One major reason I never liked Army uniforms. Just entirely too much stuff on them. There's no need to display everthing you've ever done in the service on your coat.

I'm not opposed to a flag patch in principle. I just think its an extra item not needed.

[stillamarine]

That has not always been the case. Marines did wear divisional patches up til around the end of War 2. Don't forget Shore Party still wears their red patches.

[Alaric]

I myself generally wear the polo shirt, unless there is a reason to wear a uniform with rank and insignia.  I have been made uncomfortable in the past by being saluted by actual service members due to the "rank" on my BDUs or shoulderboards.  With the polo shirt, I'm just another civilian.  Regardless of what national decides I hope they give a decent phase out period so people don't go too huge an expense.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I have been saluted by active duty, Army National Guard, and Air National Guard members, I have started salutes for same, and do not feel in the very least awkward about it.

One time as I was going into a hotel, a Petty Officer was walking out the door. He held the door and saluted acknowledging I was in CAP. Another time I was going to an Air National Guard base to teach a portion of an SLS and the Security Guard, a Sergeant saluted me then a First Lieutenant after I identified myself and showed an ID.

What I feel awkward is that in some instances I was supposed or should have saluted and did not. I have problems with identifying the grade on the ACU, and I am sure there were some instances I have passed officers but did not salute as I start looking for grade insignia and they walk past before I can identify the grade. Another time a National Guard captain in mufti walked into the armory a squadron I used to be meets. Since my cadets opened the door to another NG, he walked in also and either I asked for his ID or "can we help you" or for some reason he decided to pull out his DOD ID. I should have saluted as I recognized him but did not.

I do not troll for salutes, but will accept them as I give them... without remorse!

Flyer

[UH60guy]

I have been saluted by active duty, Army National Guard, and Air National Guard members, I have started salutes for same, and do not feel in the very least awkward about it.

I applaud you for that- We seem to put waaaay too much thought behind salutes, and devote a seemingly inordinate amount of space in new member guidance publications about the salute in my opinion. It gets to the point where cadets are sometimes anxious/embarrassed about it because saluting is talked about so much. It's easier to just remember if it's shiny (and for officers, outranks you regardless of service/CAP status), salute it. It's a show of respect, nothing too fancy. If you accidentally salute, it takes more time to awkwardly apologize than to silently laugh to yourself afterwards.

On the same token, I don't worry about it when someone fails to salute me (and I can tell it wasn't an intentional slight). The other day, I left the PX in Army ACUs. Some poor A1C was coming in and obviously couldn't see the rank (gold rank is hard to see on ACUs, and in a different place than USAF uniforms). I could see her confusion, straining her eyes to figure out what uniform I was in, brief indecision- eventually her hand raised just as I passed, but I just returned it and moved on, not breaking stride. No need to make it awkward for anyone.

[Hawk200]

What I feel awkward is that in some instances I was supposed or should have saluted and did not. I have problems with identifying the grade on the ACU, and I am sure there were some instances I have passed officers but did not salute as I start looking for grade insignia and they walk past before I can identify the grade.

On the ACU, all rank is in one spot, center of the chest. Officer rank seems a little more "solid" than enlisted rank, there is generally more thread used to embroider the insignia. For me, I seem to be able to note it on the hat faster than on the chest.

[Shuman 14]

The rank on the center chest was first done by the French in the late 1950s. They had a buttoned flap that a rank slide was slid on and buttoned down. They wore full color in garrison and subdued in the field.

I always said we (the Army) should have done the same thing, created a mini-slide that on one side had a a full color version of our shirt epaulet and on the other UCP and a subdued rank.

Would have made life much easier all around.

[FlyTiger77]

I always said we (the Army) should have done the same thing, created a mini-slide that on one side had a a full color version of our shirt epaulet and on the other UCP and a subdued rank.

My studied opinion is that giving us back a collar for our rank and branch insignia would be easier and better still.

[Shuman 14]

I always said we (the Army) should have done the same thing, created a mini-slide that on one side had a a full color version of our shirt epaulet and on the other UCP and a subdued rank.

My studied opinion is that giving us back a collar for our rank and branch insignia would be easier and better still.

That's true as well Sir.

[Al Sayre]

The rank on the center chest was first done by the French in the late 1950s. They had a buttoned flap that a rank slide was slid on and buttoned down. They wore full color in garrison and subdued in the field.

I always said we (the Army) should have done the same thing, created a mini-slide that on one side had a a full color version of our shirt epaulet and on the other UCP and a subdued rank.

Would have made life much easier all around.

Rank slides make it easy for the snipers, they don't have to change their point of aim after identifying the officers...

[Shuman 14]

The rank on the center chest was first done by the French in the late 1950s. They had a buttoned flap that a rank slide was slid on and buttoned down. They wore full color in garrison and subdued in the field.

I always said we (the Army) should have done the same thing, created a mini-slide that on one side had a a full color version of our shirt epaulet and on the other UCP and a subdued rank.

Would have made life much easier all around.

Rank slides make it easy for the snipers, they don't have to change their point of aim after identifying the officers...

Nice! 

[Luis R. Ramos]

Al-

Don't Army officers wear grade on their caps? It may have the same results, no?

Flyer

[Shuman 14]

Al-

Don't Army officers wear grade on their caps? It may have the same results, no?

Flyer

The NVG mount covers up the rank on the helmet. 

[Critical AOA]

I myself generally wear the polo shirt, unless there is a reason to wear a uniform with rank and insignia.  I have been made uncomfortable in the past by being saluted by actual service members due to the "rank" on my BDUs or shoulderboards.  With the polo shirt, I'm just another civilian.  Regardless of what national decides I hope they give a decent phase out period so people don't go too huge an expense.

Great points.  I was only an E4 in the Army and am now a Captain in CAP.  I prefer not to wear rank insignia especially around active duty personnel for a few reasons and one is that I do not feel my CAP captain's bars deserve to be saluted by active duty even an E-1.   I would consider it especially strange and undeserved for a CAP officer who never served in the armed forces to be saluted by anybody in the armed forces regardless of the ranks of the two individuals. 

[jeders]

I myself generally wear the polo shirt, unless there is a reason to wear a uniform with rank and insignia.  I have been made uncomfortable in the past by being saluted by actual service members due to the "rank" on my BDUs or shoulderboards.  With the polo shirt, I'm just another civilian.  Regardless of what national decides I hope they give a decent phase out period so people don't go too huge an expense.

Great points.  I was only an E4 in the Army and am now a Captain in CAP.  I prefer not to wear rank insignia especially around active duty personnel for a few reasons and one is that I do not feel my CAP captain's bars deserve to be saluted by active duty even an E-1.   I would consider it especially strange and undeserved for a CAP officer who never served in the armed forces to be saluted by anybody in the armed forces regardless of the ranks of the two individuals.

This right here is just about the single biggest problem in CAP. Those who feel that CAP grade is not worthy.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Jeders-

I concur.

Why they decide to accept it then hide it is beyond my understanding. If they are so ashamed they should return it.

Flyer

[Shuman 14]

I myself generally wear the polo shirt, unless there is a reason to wear a uniform with rank and insignia.  I have been made uncomfortable in the past by being saluted by actual service members due to the "rank" on my BDUs or shoulderboards.  With the polo shirt, I'm just another civilian.  Regardless of what national decides I hope they give a decent phase out period so people don't go too huge an expense.

Great points.  I was only an E4 in the Army and am now a Captain in CAP.  I prefer not to wear rank insignia especially around active duty personnel for a few reasons and one is that I do not feel my CAP captain's bars deserve to be saluted by active duty even an E-1.   I would consider it especially strange and undeserved for a CAP officer who never served in the armed forces to be saluted by anybody in the armed forces regardless of the ranks of the two individuals.

I just think that's so wrong. There is an old saying that you salute the rank... not the person that wears it.

Is a civilian police officer required to be saluted... no, but if an Inspector (ie Colonel) or a Chief  (ie General Officer) passed me I'd salute him/her out of respect.

Same with a CAP Officer or USCGAux Officeholder who out ranks me, I'd salute and offer the greeting of the day.

It's a simple matter of respect, I know what it takes to earn ranks and titles and will salute them for that alone if nothing else.

[Storm Chaser]

Military personnel are NOT required to salute CAP officers. If someone does, just simply return the courtesy by saluting back. There's nothing wrong with that and I'm talking as an Air Force officer here. There's a difference between trolling for salutes and extending customs and courtesies.

Now, I don't consider CAP rank unworthy. I don't think anyone should. But at the same time, the reality is that attaining rank in CAP is somewhat easier than in the military. The requirements are just not the same; nothing wrong with that since CAP serves a different purpose. But, in my opinion, that makes grades between the military and CAP not equal. That being said, that's not a good reason to feel ashamed, unworthy or that you need to hide your rank. We're a civilian paramilitary organization and the Air Force Auxiliary. We use ranks; we have for decades. If wearing CAP ranks was inappropriate, even when working with active duty personnel, the Air Force and CAP would not allow it. But as it stands, there's nothing wrong with wearing your CAP uniform with grade insignia that you've earned, especially when you demonstrate professionalism and competence when doing so.

I have nothing against the Golf Shirt (I use it when it seems appropriate), but I also wear my CAP uniform with pride and try to provide an example to others, especially cadets, by wearing it properly and extending the appropriate customs and courtesies. I respect those who choose not to wear a military-style uniform, but wearing a uniform and appropriate grade insignia is part of our tradition.

[Critical AOA]

The thing is that rank in CAP is pretty easy to come by versus what it takes to earn it in the military.  While what it takes to make Captain in the Army, Marines & Air Force or Lieutenant in the Navy are comparable to each other and therefore are deserving of the same respect and consideration from members of the other services, what it takes to make the same rank in CAP is far, far less and is therefore not deserving of the same.  Anyone who believes otherwise is only fooling himself.

I am not adverse to a rank structure in CAP, it has its place.  However as long as its insignia is the same as the military and people in CAP wear an Air Force style uniform, I will continue to avoid wearing it.  If all of our uniforms were distinctive and our grade insignia were different than the military, not only would I be far more prone to wear it but so would numerous others. 

[Brad]

I myself generally wear the polo shirt, unless there is a reason to wear a uniform with rank and insignia.  I have been made uncomfortable in the past by being saluted by actual service members due to the "rank" on my BDUs or shoulderboards.  With the polo shirt, I'm just another civilian.  Regardless of what national decides I hope they give a decent phase out period so people don't go too huge an expense.

Great points.  I was only an E4 in the Army and am now a Captain in CAP.  I prefer not to wear rank insignia especially around active duty personnel for a few reasons and one is that I do not feel my CAP captain's bars deserve to be saluted by active duty even an E-1.   I would consider it especially strange and undeserved for a CAP officer who never served in the armed forces to be saluted by anybody in the armed forces regardless of the ranks of the two individuals.

For what it's worth I tried to go active duty. Was working towards my Ensign commission through NROTC but ultimately got disqualified non-waiverable due to sleepwalking. Regardless, I still took the oath to support and defend the Constituion, and CAP is my way of making good on it. It keeps me in uniform and allows me to make good on my oath to the best of my ability. Do I go trolling for salutes? No, but I return them gladly if offered. I've even had a retired USMC Master Sergeant who I could tell had seen some things come up to me and offer me a salute, and I could tell he knew I was CAP, but he still told me all the same, "Thank you for your service, sir." Did I protest? Did I say there's no need to salute me? No, I returned his salute properly and carried on.

[JoeTomasone]

And let's not forget a few important points:

1. We do serve our Nation, just not in a combatant role.   In fact, we are authorized to carry out ANY non-combatant role that SECAF desires us to.

2. A salute is a military GREETING, not some indication of subservience.  I have not been able to identify any regulation for any branch that would prohibit a salute to a CAP member (or, for that matter, to anyone).   AFI 10-2701, "ORGANIZATION AND FUNCTION OF THE CIVIL AIR PATROL", specifically states that CAP members are not entitled to courtesies, but doesn't go so far as to prohibit them.   

3. CAP is a curious, contradictory mixture of civilian and military.   We are not under UCMJ, but we are subject to Posse Commitatus.  We are volunteers, but are considered instrumentalities of the United States when performing AFAMs.    We don't carry CAC cards, but have a military liaison command (CAP-USAF). 

We may not be entitled to courtesies (and this is not a bad thing), but we are clearly not (as an organization) simply ordinary civilians. 


Now personally, I view being saluted by military personnel the same way I view being thanked for my service by someone on the street.   Most of the time it is out of ignorance of what CAP is, however, in some cases, it has been with full knowledge of what and who we are.     I may not carry a rifle in a foreign land and kill the enemies of my country, but I do serve my country, much more than than average person, and I believe that what we do is important.    I am comfortable if someone chooses to recognize that. 

Now, there is one interesting point that was raised above - that CAP Officers do not go through what military officers do to earn their grade.  This is true.   But consider this:  A graduate of a service academy comes out as an Officer - what did they "go through" that a civilian college student did not, other than sign a piece of paper?    I would submit that this is not as simple as many are making it out to be, and that bickering about it is largely pointless.   If you are saluted, return the salute.   If you are thanked for serving, acknowledge it gracefully.   If the circumstances warrant and permit, tell our story.   But don't embarrass someone who offers a salute or thanks by telling them that they shouldn't or that it's not required.   Not only are you worthy of a greeting or to be thanked for your CAP service, but you could actually insult someone who knows [darn]ed well what CAP is and was offering you a token of respect, only to have it tossed back in their face.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Joe-

Nice words, specifically in that some that salute may well know who we are, and by saying "Do not salute me, I am CAP" you are slapping them in their face.

:clap:

Flyer

[Alaric]

Joe-

Nice words, specifically in that some that salute may well know who we are, and by saying "Do not salute me, I am CAP" you are slapping them in their face.

:clap:

Flyer

I agree and would always return a salute, I just remove the possibility from the equation by wearing the polo shirt

[Al Sayre]

Do you think that U.S. Military personnel should salute officers of foreign freindly nations?  (They are required to do so.)  How do you know that their requirements for advancement are the same as the U.S. Military?  For many years, you could buy a commission in the army of many nations, and while I don't know off the top of my head if that practice still exists, it wouldn't suprise me if it did.  What about some of the third world countries where the dictator of the day appoints people to their grades based on political convenience/reward/payback?  If they are a "friendly nation" our military personnel are still required to render customs and courtesies regardless of how they got the grade.

Consider the different branches within our own military.  For example the promotion criteria for a Naval line officer is much different from that of a medical or dental officer, yet they wear the same grade insignia and receive the same customs and courtesies.  Neither is less worthy of receiving a salute and a polite "good morning sir" from the other branch.

The point is that no one's grade is more or less worthy of a salute, be it CAP, U.S. Military, Local VFD, etc.  The grade is relative to the oganization that provides it.  There is no reason to hide your CAP rank or feel ashamed of receiving a salute from U.S. Military personnel.  The person giving the salute is probably just following what he/she has been taught about customs and courtesies by his/her respective organization.  Just return the salute and drive on.  Trying to tell people they don't have to salute you only confuses them and makes them feel like they have done something wrong.  Is that really the response you want to give to someone who is only trying to do the right/polite thing?  The correct response is to return the salute and greeting and carry on with your day.

[jeders]

Joe-

Nice words, specifically in that some that salute may well know who we are, and by saying "Do not salute me, I am CAP" you are slapping them in their face.

:clap:

Flyer

I agree and would always return a salute, I just remove the possibility from the equation by wearing the polo shirt

I'm picking on you because yours was the closest response that works to my means, and I apologize. Do you give proper greetings when you wear your polo? How about when you're at work or at the grocery store? The point is that, just like say good morning and calling someone sir or ma'am is part of being polite in everyday society, a salute is a part of being polite in a military/paramilitary society. If you don't want to be polite and show someone respect, then I have to assume that you are not worthy of receiving respect. Therefore not worth my time.

Again I'm picking on you only due to proximity, I'm sure you show respect normally just as any polite person would.

[Alaric]

Joe-

Nice words, specifically in that some that salute may well know who we are, and by saying "Do not salute me, I am CAP" you are slapping them in their face.

:clap:

Flyer

I agree and would always return a salute, I just remove the possibility from the equation by wearing the polo shirt

I'm picking on you because yours was the closest response that works to my means, and I apologize. Do you give proper greetings when you wear your polo? How about when you're at work or at the grocery store? The point is that, just like say good morning and calling someone sir or ma'am is part of being polite in everyday society, a salute is a part of being polite in a military/paramilitary society. If you don't want to be polite and show someone respect, then I have to assume that you are not worthy of receiving respect. Therefore not worth my time.

Again I'm picking on you only due to proximity, I'm sure you show respect normally just as any polite person would.

Your argument is specious, as salutes are courtesies given only under certain circumstances, including being in uniform.  Even were I a Corporal in the Army and at the Bronx Zoo I would not salute an officer who was not in uniform if I happened to see him in the reptile house.  As the polo uniform is, for all intents and purposes, from the eye of a non-CAP observer civilian clothing there would be no reason for anyone in uniform to salute.  Much as when I went on base with my uncle so he could use the commissary (he had retired) no one saluted him as he was in civies.

[jeders]

Much as when I went on base with my uncle so he could use the commissary (he had retired) no one saluted him as he was in civies.

Yes, but I'm sure that they greeted him in a polite and courteous manner. There is a reason that it's called customs and courtesies, salutes are a courtesy and are part of being polite. And believe it or not, throughout history the salute has been exchanged between non-military persons.

[Ned]

Your argument is specious, as salutes are courtesies given only under certain circumstances, including being in uniform.

Specious?  Really?

That seems a little harsh.  Especially since what he said is actually true.

If the exchange of salutes is otherwise appropriate, it is customary, although optional, for military members in civilian clothing to exchange hand salutes upon recognition.

Which is what I was taught (and practiced) as an Army officer for a couple of decades.

See also AR 600-25, Salutes, Honors, and Visits of Courtesy

It really is a courtesy.  Politeness.  Comradeship.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Even were I a Corporal in the Army and at the Bronx Zoo I would not salute an officer who was not in uniform if I happened to see him in the reptile house.

Well, the applicable Army regulation does say it is optional in civlilian attire.  You have every right to not say "Good Morning" to your mother as well.  You may be as discourteous as your conscience permits in civilian attire. 

Much as when I went on base with my uncle so he could use the commissary (he had retired) no one saluted him as he was in civies.

But they probably would have had they known he was a retired officer.  As just one example, as a retired officer I am saluted without fail by military gate guards after they return my ID.  Even when I am in civilian clothing. Because they are being courteous.

Thank you for your service.  Please be courteous while serving.  I'll try to do the same.

Ned Lee
Retired Army Guy

[Shuman 14]

Your argument is specious, as salutes are courtesies given only under certain circumstances, including being in uniform.  Even were I a Corporal in the Army and at the Bronx Zoo I would not salute an officer who was not in uniform if I happened to see him in the reptile house.  As the polo uniform is, for all intents and purposes, from the eye of a non-CAP observer civilian clothing there would be no reason for anyone in uniform to salute.  Much as when I went on base with my uncle so he could use the commissary (he had retired) no one saluted him as he was in civies.

If you are in uniform and you personally recognize a superior officer, it is absolutely proper and correct to salute them and offer the greeting of the day. Why? Because you KNOW him/her and you KNOW he/she out ranks you.

Now if an officer, whom you do not know, walks past you in civilian clothing, how would you know that he/she was even an officer? You don't, so there is nothing wrong with not saluting in that case. Which, if your uncle was retired, was highly likely the case as how many people there personally knew  him as an officer and knew he was due a salute, even civilian clothing? Unless they had an "officer detector" that pings in their pocket when an officer is within 20 paces, they wouldn't.

I'd also like to point out (at least at Army bases) that commissary is normally designated a "salute free zone" because of the high volume of traffic and the last thing you need to do is fumble for a salute while carrying three bags of grocery's.

[SarDragon]

Personally, I have two varieties of salutes - the strictly formal, done while in uniform, flavor we all learned while in acquisition training, and a less formal, tip-of-the-hat style that accomplishes the same purpose, without seeming out of place in a civilian clothes environment. The recipient usually returns it in a similar manner, or merely nods,and adds a verbal greeting.

It has always been accepted for what it is, a greeting.

YMMV.

[NorCal21]

I myself generally wear the polo shirt, unless there is a reason to wear a uniform with rank and insignia.  I have been made uncomfortable in the past by being saluted by actual service members due to the "rank" on my BDUs or shoulderboards.  With the polo shirt, I'm just another civilian.  Regardless of what national decides I hope they give a decent phase out period so people don't go too huge an expense.

First, I'll say you have every right to feel the way you feel. Don't let anyone tell you anything different. Everyone has a different opinion on everything in life.

With that being said, there's nothing wrong with being saluted by AD members of the military or any other duty status. A salute is rendered to those person's who are an officer of higher rank and returned to those who salute you. You don't have to be military to be saluted, or to return a salute. You don't even have to be the same organization. Police will salute a higher officer under certain circumstances the same as fire fighters. Usually ceremonial ones, but it occurs nonetheless.

We are not military. We are civilians working in a paramilitary organization. We've earned our grade just the same as those in the military have earned theirs. Our requirements are different than theirs to achieve each grade, but that shouldn't matter. A supply officer in the AF versus an infantry officer in the Marines have had to go through significantly different paths to get to the same rank of Captain. Doesn't mean that one is any better than the other. If an AD person salutes me I return the salute.

[NorCal21]

I myself generally wear the polo shirt, unless there is a reason to wear a uniform with rank and insignia.  I have been made uncomfortable in the past by being saluted by actual service members due to the "rank" on my BDUs or shoulderboards.  With the polo shirt, I'm just another civilian.  Regardless of what national decides I hope they give a decent phase out period so people don't go too huge an expense.

Great points.  I was only an E4 in the Army and am now a Captain in CAP.  I prefer not to wear rank insignia especially around active duty personnel for a few reasons and one is that I do not feel my CAP captain's bars deserve to be saluted by active duty even an E-1.   I would consider it especially strange and undeserved for a CAP officer who never served in the armed forces to be saluted by anybody in the armed forces regardless of the ranks of the two individuals.

This right here is just about the single biggest problem in CAP. Those who feel that CAP grade is not worthy.

Absolutely agree. I already posted once just now here about that. We aren't AD, reserve, or guard. Who cares. Its as if people feel the only people in the world deserving of a salute are military. I had an LAPD officer salute me once. Why? Because he saw the bars. Didn't matter what the organization was. We were in the proper setting and he saluted.

We should be saluted by our own membership, and we should except salutes from any other organization that renders one to us.

I had to meet me organization's goals and requirements to get to my rank just as an AF A1C did for his. As I've said before, if we start saying that one organization's requirements are enough than a Marine could blow off of the AF and Navy whenever he felt.

[NorCal21]

The thing is that rank in CAP is pretty easy to come by versus what it takes to earn it in the military.  While what it takes to make Captain in the Army, Marines & Air Force or Lieutenant in the Navy are comparable to each other and therefore are deserving of the same respect and consideration from members of the other services, what it takes to make the same rank in CAP is far, far less and is therefore not deserving of the same.  Anyone who believes otherwise is only fooling himself.

I am not adverse to a rank structure in CAP, it has its place.  However as long as its insignia is the same as the military and people in CAP wear an Air Force style uniform, I will continue to avoid wearing it.  If all of our uniforms were distinctive and our grade insignia were different than the military, not only would I be far more prone to wear it but so would numerous others.

This simply isn't true. The requirements for O-3 (just picking a rank here for the sake of argument) between the seven branches of uniformed service are greatly different. The similarity exists only in the types of requirements rather than the actual requirements themselves. This is even true of officers in the same branch of the military but a different MOS. Time in grade, physical fitness, rifle range, pistol range, swim quals, extra duty, pro/con marks, how many (if any) page 11's, etc. Some of those aren't even required by all services. I doubt the AF has swim quals whereas the Marine Corps does. Heck, in the Marines, one is required to read certain books and/or documents per each grade level.

To obtain a higher grade in an SDF is significantly harder than it is in CAP. Does that really matter? No.

It is not for any of us to say one's organizational requirements aren't as hard as the next.

[NorCal21]

For what it's worth I tried to go active duty. Was working towards my Ensign commission through NROTC but ultimately got disqualified non-waiverable due to sleepwalking. Regardless, I still took the oath to support and defend the Constituion, and CAP is my way of making good on it. It keeps me in uniform and allows me to make good on my oath to the best of my ability. Do I go trolling for salutes? No, but I return them gladly if offered. I've even had a retired USMC Master Sergeant who I could tell had seen some things come up to me and offer me a salute, and I could tell he knew I was CAP, but he still told me all the same, "Thank you for your service, sir." Did I protest? Did I say there's no need to salute me? No, I returned his salute properly and carried on.

Amen to that! I was a Marine. Never had a problem saluting a CAP officer, or an SDF member when I rarely saw them. We were always informed of who those person's were, that we weren't required but as a sign of respect we should. They serve the country just like us but in a different manner. Service to country was the main factor in our being suggested we salute.

[NorCal21]

3. CAP is a curious, contradictory mixture of civilian and military.   We are not under UCMJ, but we are subject to Posse Commitatus.  We are volunteers, but are considered instrumentalities of the United States when performing AFAMs.    We don't carry CAC cards, but have a military liaison command (CAP-USAF). 

One thing I noticed a few years ago was that my CAP card didn't have this but my CGAUX ID card has full Geneva Convention coding. Than again the mission of the CGAUX is a little different so I can understand. You've got CGAUX members serving on Navy ships in Africa right now. So I guess the coding makes sense.

I know my SDF ID had one when I was a member of one. It was even a CAC ID. I know the CGAUX is working on making their cards CAC. Makes it so much simpler than having to get a contractor's ID card for CAP when we meet on base.

[NorCal21]

Your argument is specious, as salutes are courtesies given only under certain circumstances, including being in uniform.  Even were I a Corporal in the Army and at the Bronx Zoo I would not salute an officer who was not in uniform if I happened to see him in the reptile house.  As the polo uniform is, for all intents and purposes, from the eye of a non-CAP observer civilian clothing there would be no reason for anyone in uniform to salute.  Much as when I went on base with my uncle so he could use the commissary (he had retired) no one saluted him as he was in civies.

Incorrect. If a person is known to be an officer, and would be requiring of a salute, whether they are in uniform or not you are required to salute. MOH recipient Dakota Meyer doesn't need to be in uniform or wearing his MOH. If you know it's him you salute. Period. The only requirement would be that you were in uniform as rendering a salute when not in uniform is neither required and sometimes prohibited.

[Eclipse]

It is not for any of us to say one's organizational requirements aren't as hard as the next.

+1

[abdsp51]

Incorrect. If a person is known to be an officer, and would be requiring of a salute, whether they are in uniform or not you are required to salute. MOH recipient Dakota Meyer doesn't need to be in uniform or wearing his MOH. If you know it's him you salute. Period. The only requirement would be that you were in uniform as rendering a salute when not in uniform is neither required and sometimes prohibited.

Cite please. I can tell for the AF I am not required to salute anyone while they or I are not in uniform whether or not I recognize them as an officer or not. Nor am I required by law or AFI to salute Medal of Honor recipients.  I suggest you check your facts before stating something as fact.

[NorCal21]

Incorrect. If a person is known to be an officer, and would be requiring of a salute, whether they are in uniform or not you are required to salute. MOH recipient Dakota Meyer doesn't need to be in uniform or wearing his MOH. If you know it's him you salute. Period. The only requirement would be that you were in uniform as rendering a salute when not in uniform is neither required and sometimes prohibited.

Cite please. I can tell for the AF I am not required to salute anyone while they or I are not in uniform whether or not I recognize them as an officer or not. Nor am I required by law or AFI to salute Medal of Honor recipients.  I suggest you check your facts before stating something as fact.

Dude you are really starting to damage my calm. You really need to read what people say and thoughtfully think out your responses because here you've missed what I was saying once again.

I don't need to cite anything. Anyone who's been a Marine knows that you salute an officer in uniform or not. Its a C&C even if its not a regulation. Same thing with MOH recipients.

I suggest you check your reading of my posts before you misquote me as saying anything was a "fact." Please go ahead and show me where I said something was fact. I was referring to C&Cs here and not necessarily regulations. Marine Corps rule of thumb is when it doubt whip out otherwise paint it green.

[NorCal21]

Nor am I required by law or AFI to salute Medal of Honor recipients.  I suggest you check your facts before stating something as fact.

p.s. I guess us Marines just hold ourselves to a higher standard of respect.

[stillamarine]

I remember as a Marine stationed on Kadena AB I saluted a female AF 2LT. She stopped me and told me she rarely got saluted and thanked me. That was the beginning of a beautiful 6 week friendship. ;-)

[abdsp51]

NorCal,

The only one ruining your calm is you.  You have stated that saluting an officer if known regardless of whether or not they or you are in uniform is a requirement, and the same with MOH recipients as fact.  Neither of which is the case, I think you need to do further research.  And you can cry Marine pride all you want, however I have met many Marines who have been far more unprofessional than the rest of the branches, and I can give two examples.  And since we are the AF Auxiliary we follow AF rules and C&C. 

You were asked to cite and you want to backpedal which shows how little you know outside the Marine life. 

[lordmonar]

I think the hang up here is the term "required".

Now in basic training SSgt Begin told me a lot of things were "required"......calling him sir....say "Sir, Airman Harris Reports" before I ever talked to him, making hospital corners on by bed, lining my shoes up on the tile lines, folding the toilet paper in a 45 degree triangle (paper is always over!).

Saluting MHO recipients is like standing at attention during the Air Force Song.......it is "required" but no one is going to go to jail for failing to do so.

Here is what the AFI says about this subject

NOTE: Rendering/returning salutes is not required if either or both are in civilian attire or have their hands full; however, a greeting such as good morning sir/ma'am‖ is appropriate.

So there ends the debate.

Either of the individuals not in uniform you are NOT required to salute......but a greeting is appropriate.

[Shuman 14]

NorCal,

The only one ruining your calm is you.  You have stated that saluting an officer if known regardless of whether or not they or you are in uniform is a requirement, and the same with MOH recipients as fact.  Neither of which is the case, I think you need to do further research.  And you can cry Marine pride all you want, however I have met many Marines who have been far more unprofessional than the rest of the branches, and I can give two examples.  And since we are the AF Auxiliary we follow AF rules and C&C. 

You were asked to cite and you want to backpedal which shows how little you know outside the Marine life.

Saluting officers and MOH recipients when recognized is common practice in the Army and Marine Corps, when did the USAF stop this practice? 

[lordmonar]

It is till "common practice".....but it is not "required".....there is a subtle but significant difference in terminology here.

[Eclipse]

It is till "common practice".....but it is not "required".....there is a subtle but significant difference in terminology here.

And that's where CAP has the issue - far too many members who won't do anything "hard", "uncomfortable", "different", or just "customary", without a reg forcing them
to do it. 

It is certainly a microcosm for the legalistic / pedantic society that we have become.  Those that argue that the presence of a hat or one's shirt choice somehow
dictates customs and courtesies are front and center of the issue.   The C&C are there to promote team spirit and recognize those who have come before or
are in positions of authority responsibility.

But in this "social" world of "me" coupled with the wholly incorrect idea that all opinions are "equal", apparently a simple salute is too much to ask.

[lordmonar]

Strange that you would say that....as I put you in the school of "if it is not in the regs you can't do it".

I would not go so far as saying that it is a "me" attitude....more like a "that's what I have been told/saw/understand" attitude.

The different services have slightly different C&C.

The Marines would never call some just "sergeant"....they are Gunnery Sergeant, Staff Sergeant, Master Sergeant.  The Marines try to take out as optional/should/may out the way they do business as much as they can.

Not saying this is better or worse then the way the anyone else does it.....it is just different.

CAP gets their leaders from a lot of different sources.  Army, Navy, Marines, CG, Police, Full Metal Jacket, The Boys from company C.....Encampment....where they all bring a lot of different ideals of "how it is supposed to be done".

Add to that mix.....CAPTALK and the diverse points of view that we bring to the table......and yes we are going to have a lot of arguments about "it is supposed to be done".

[Eclipse]

Strange that you would say that....as I put you in the school of "if it is not in the regs you can't do it".

I don't think my viewpoints are nearly that clear-cut, especially in regards to something like this.

What I advocate is a return to actually following the regs, and not falling into the trap of "a pamphlet isn't regulatory".
But as we both know, in CAP, if you follow every reg to the letter, in some cases you'll wind up walking, if not in a circle,
at least in a trapezoid.

[Fubar]

But in this "social" world of "me" coupled with the wholly incorrect idea that all opinions are "equal", apparently a simple salute is too much to ask.

Could you expand on this a little? I'm not sure I understand the point you're making, especially the remark about opinions.

[FlyTiger77]

Strange that you would say that....as I put you in the school of "if it is not in the regs you can't do it".

I don't think my viewpoints are nearly that clear-cut, especially in regards to something like this.

I have to agree with Pat here. I seem to recall being brand new to the forum here years ago and having a...hmmmm...discussion...that ran several pages, I might add....with you as to what the word "should" meant in regulatory guidance regarding file retention for transferred members.

But, people change. :

[SpookyDude]

It seems my thread has developed a life of its own and is going way off course...maybe we should end this one and start some new ones....

Thanks for all the feedback guys!

[Private Investigator]

All threads at CAP Talk eventually get back to uniform issues. i.e. the CAP KILT   

[JoeTomasone]

A supply officer in the AF versus an infantry officer in the Marines have had to go through significantly different paths to get to the same rank of Captain. Doesn't mean that one is any better than the other. If an AD person salutes me I return the salute.

Excellent point.    :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Dracosbane]

As a Cadet Flight Officer (butter ball, gold circle, etc) I was walking around an air show when I rounded a corner and turned my head to see an Army enlisted female walking towards me.  She only is able to see my rank on my beret.  Apparently she mistook the flash of gold for a bar and saluted me.  I just returned the salute and kept going.

Now, I surprise military members.  The Col. in charge at our meeting location has met me several times outside the building as he's leaving for the day and I'm coming for our meeting.  I can tell as he comes over to talk that he'd like to shake my hand, and is surprised when I whip out a salute.  I still shake his hand after.

[kd8gua]

So, I'm going to try to bring this topic back around. New 39-1. I really do hope a public draft is released. It would be great to finally get an answer on ABUs, and clarification on all of the gray areas that we often bicker about here. A public draft would help to alleviate the gray areas, because the three or four people on the committee that are writing it can't possibly catch every typo or oversight.

If we switch to ABUs, but leave BDUs as well, let's just standardize both as AF style, and make wear of patches, military badges, and insignia the same for both. The last thing we need are two corporate field uniforms, an AF style, plus the utility jumpsuit. Streamline and consistency!

The argument about the flag patch? That was put in place after I departed as a cadet in 2005. It was instituted by HWSRN. To date, that is the only uniform change (along with wear of grade insignia on the BDU cap for SM and Cadet Officers) that has stuck. The other changes (US Civil Air Patrol tapes, the corporate service uniform, etc) have all been cleaned up.

[Garibaldi]

What are ABUs?

[Eclipse]

What are ABUs?

Something we're not supposed to ask about.

[Brad]

First rule of CAP and ABUs: you don't talk about CAP and ABUs.

[Luis R. Ramos]

ABU...

Reminds me of a song...

ABUUUUUUUUU! Werewolves of London.

ABUUUUUUUUU! Werewolves of London.

Sorry.Killing time before reporting to the NY Wing Encampment tomorrow eve.

Flyer

[ColonelJack]

Reminds me of a song...

ABUUUUUUUUU! Werewolves of London.

ABUUUUUUUUU! Werewolves of London.

You weren't the werewolf drinking a pina colada at Trader Vic's, were you?

Your hair was perfect.

Jack

[Al Sayre]

When I saw him he had a chinese menu in his hand...

[Shuman 14]

Was that at Lee Ho Fook's?

I hear they have great beef Chow Mein. 

[Critical AOA]

Fook if I know.