White Aviator shirt-AF Style

[Camas]

I assume you've called & nagged vanguard recently. If that's not working then I'd call HQ. I foget who it is, but there's someone up there tasked with dealing w/ problems related to vanguard (and taking complaints).

Rita Labarre is her name

That doesn't have the AF-style pockets.

No, I don't own one of those though I'd like to.  This is the shirt I currently use for my TPU's.  See my earlier post.

For the blue uniform with white shirt, you can wear a shirt with either plain buttoned pockets or buttoned pockets with the AF-style pleat.  For the white shirt with the gray pants you wear the white plain pocketed shirt.

Sounds like you can wear either shirt with either uniform.  However the consensus seems to be in favor in wearing the pleated-pocket shirt with the TPU's.

[AlphaSigOU]

And I'm still waiting on my TPU service dress coat... 

I assume you've called & nagged vanguard recently. If that's not working then I'd call HQ. I foget who it is, but there's someone up there tasked with dealing w/ problems related to vanguard (and taking complaints).

Already did... twice. Giving 'em one more time before I escalate to Rita LaBarre at NHQ CAP.

[DNall]

Rita Labarre is her name

Thank you!

Sounds like you can wear either shirt with either uniform.  However the consensus seems to be in favor in wearing the pleated-pocket shirt with the TPU's.

Consensus is generally that it would be best if the reg spelled out the pleated pocket as required for both blue & gray combos, but with a couple year wear out date on the others so you don't kill anyone on the money. W/ or w/o that, Vanguard should move to selling the right ones. And overall, CAP should spell out MILSPEC on items like this.

[Monty]

Could you post the link again (to a place with shirts without the eyelets, I assume)?  Thanks!

Try this one

http://www.pilotshirts.com/products.asp?dept=12

Well, I ordered one of these shirts (w/o the eyelets) but to my dismay, the epaulets are too small for CAP rank insignia.  (I'm no weird size either.......s/s shirt, 15 1/2 neck....)  There's plenty of room if they'd made the epaulets longer....then it'd have been perfect.

Good shirt though!

Bummer.    Guess it's gotta go back.

[DNall]

huh... I see what you mean in the pix now. looks like they blocked off the end so those standard commercial pilot slides would sit centered. Is it a matter of popping a couple stitches that woudn't tear it up? I mean it'd be covered by the grade slide anyway just as long as it didn't do any stuctural or visual damage. Just curious since you've held on in your hand. Too bad too, cause it looks right.

[Monty]

huh... I see what you mean in the pix now. looks like they blocked off the end so those standard commercial pilot slides would sit centered. Is it a matter of popping a couple stitches that woudn't tear it up? I mean it'd be covered by the grade slide anyway just as long as it didn't do any stuctural or visual damage. Just curious since you've held on in your hand. Too bad too, cause it looks right.

This shirt is a MUCH better quality than the AF-style blue shirt or the CAP typical aviator white shirt, so I hate to hand it back.

Even as handy as I am with a sewing machine and alterations, I'm not going to tackle the fix-job.  The epaulet is built into the seam of the shirt and well, for the price of the thing, I'd just as soon have it professionally correct upon order.

BUT...

I did send in a request to see if they'll either offer a custom job on the epaulets or a flat out refund (I'm sure of the latter.)

It's heavier weight, MUCH more sturdy (not "Dickies" utilitarian though), 60/40 cotton/poly, flat-felled seems, tough collar....I was looking forward to this addition.  They sure do mail quickly (if its in stock, it goes out the day you order.)

Hope they'll do customs.

EDIT: here you go; a comparison

[DNall]

Man, that's really too bad, that seems top notch.

[pixelwonk]

Hey, those are spiffy Epaulet slides! 

I bet they even came with free home-made stiffeners too!

[Monty]

Hey, those are spiffy Epaulet slides! 

I bet they even came with free home-made stiffeners too!

I wondered about those!  I thought, "man, these are super duty...too bad I don't use 'em."  I handed them to my wife and she knows IMMEDIATELY what they are.

Being the real brains of the house and all.   

[pixelwonk]

Who said they were for you?

[Monty]

Well, here's a cut 'n paste of the response I got.

Hope it helps everyone!

-Monty

*          *          *

"So sorry for the problem with the epaulet length. Our Pilot House brand shirts do indeed have epaulets that are shorter than some of the other brands. This was to prevent a common complaint of epaulets bowing up or conventional airline length (3") command bars sliding up toward the neck. So unfortunately none of our Pilot House brand shirts will be an improvement.

However, pretty much all the other shirts we carry do have longer epaulets. Of course, none of these shirts are available in the beefy oxford fabric nor are they particularly tapered. You can view a chart with all the shirts here: http://www.pilotshirts.com/1_MenShirts.asp   Click on the CODE to see the shirt, then click on the camera icon for "Alternate view" at the bottom of the list of details... this picture will provide a pretty good idea of the length of the epaulet relative to the collar. (Note that the bars may not be positioned on each shirt at quite the same place on the epaulette in each picture).

We will expect a return of the TOFS shirt. Please let us know if any of the other shirts might be a good exchange possibility for you.  Sorry we could not provide the exact same shirt with longer epaulettes.

Thank you,
Paul
Pilot House Staff

e-mail: phouse@nycap.rr.com
www.pilotshirts.com
Phone: 800-833-3838
Monday-Thursday 9am-4pm ET
Friday 9am-12pm ET
Fax: 518-861-6876

*          *          *

From: M. Montgomery, Maj (CAP) [mailto:mmontgomery@cawg.cap.gov]
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:24 PM
To: phouse@nycap.rr.com
Subject: Customer Question/Request
Importance: High

Good evening, friends....writing in regards to order #[deleted].  Arrived fine, love the shirt....one small problem, though.

The epaulets on the shirt are too short for my rank insignia.

Do you have this same shirt, exactly as is, but with longer epaulets (e.g., epaulets that extend from the shoulder up to the collar?)  1.5 more inches on both epaulets and this shirt is perfect for our use!

Please advise if there's a product with which to exchange or should I return the shirt for a refund?

V/R,
-Monty

************************************************************
MICHAEL S. MONTGOMERY, JR., Major, CAP
Commander, PCR-CA-334
http://sq36.cawg.cap.gov"

[Monty]

Who said they were for you?

The senior citizen who wrote my name on the package! 

[DrJbdm]

 Hey Monty,

Those grade slides looked pretty good, much better then the ones I'm using. They looked to be tapered much like the AF grade slides are. Where did you get them? or what did you do to make them look pretty decent?
 

[DNall]

The "VH pilot" on there looks like the right pocket, but full-cut versus tapered doesn't sound like it's going to be nearly as nice, nor does the faberic or overall quality, but still an improvement over the standard.

[Monty]

Hey Monty,

Those grade slides looked pretty good, much better then the ones I'm using. They looked to be tapered much like the AF grade slides are. Where did you get them? or what did you do to make them look pretty decent?
 

Actually, though I did recently buy a pair from Tedda, those weren't his.

They just came like that.  I don't do anything special to them....no "shapers," no nothing.

"Dontcha wish your grade sleeves were Hot...Like....Mine" (Pussycat Dolls, ala CAP style.)

[LTC_Gadget]

In all honesty... the people in the white shirt tend to be the least militarized among us, regardless of their background. I don't think less of them or consciously prejudge them, but my expectations on first impression are lower for the uniform, and a lot of times that bleeds to an assessment of their military skills, line leadership abilities, etc. It's not that they can't very quickly establish their credentials & reshape my opinion of them, they very much can, but that takes an effort. Really if you wear that uniform right you can establish that position w/o opening your mouth (not many garters hanging from white shirts), but that's the same situation wear you can wear an AF uniform badly & that's going to shape my impression of you as well.

Well, here's another small-percentage situation to consider.

I'm as militarized as any, and more than most.  It comes from growing up in the house of a wing, region and national commander. It's an environment where your uniform, your every action and word are constantly examined, analyzed, criticized and noted for future reference. THAT was when I was a cadet, and a young senior member.  I also work full-time for the AF. After being dormant and unassigned for a time, I'm now getting active for a second time.  However, currently, I have a bum knee, and have to use a cane for anything more substantial than short-distance walking. Soooo, not wanting to look odd, out-of-place, attract undue attention, etc., in AF uniforms, I've opted for all the CAP alternate combinations until I complete the pre-surgery rehab (pre-hab?), the surgery, and the rehab on the other side. So, while I may not be in AF blue, my attitude inside is the same.  You either wear it right, or you don't wear it at all. There is no try; do.  My attitude toward my duties and the jobs that I perform is the same.  Do it right the first time. You're a volunteer until you take a job, and then you have a job to do.

So, consider that there may be other, less obvious reasons for folks making the choices that they do which might have nothing to do with their attitude, their approach or their professionalism, etc.  And no, while I am being emphatic, I'm not tryin' to pick a fight, just firmly make a point. Promise...

One question -- TPU??

I've saved the links to the "proper" white shirts. They do look "more correct" to me as well.

Your time and assistance are appreciated.

V/R,

[MIKE]

One question -- TPU??

Tony Pineda Uniform... It's kinda like how everyone calls the Field Uniform Blue BDUs or BBDU.  Someone came up with it when the Corporate Uniform was first coming out, and it stuck.

[AlphaSigOU]

Well, here's another small-percentage situation to consider.

I'm as militarized as any, and more than most.  It comes from growing up in the house of a wing, region and national commander. It's an environment where your uniform, your every action and word are constantly examined, analyzed, criticized and noted for future reference. THAT was when I was a cadet, and a young senior member.  I also work full-time for the AF. After being dormant and unassigned for a time, I'm now getting active for a second time.  However, currently, I have a bum knee, and have to use a cane for anything more substantial than short-distance walking. Soooo, not wanting to look odd, out-of-place, attract undue attention, etc., in AF uniforms, I've opted for all the CAP alternate combinations until I complete the pre-surgery rehab (pre-hab?), the surgery, and the rehab on the other side. So, while I may not be in AF blue, my attitude inside is the same.  You either wear it right, or you don't wear it at all. There is no try; do.  My attitude toward my duties and the jobs that I perform is the same.  Do it right the first time. You're a volunteer until you take a job, and then you have a job to do.

So, consider that there may be other, less obvious reasons for folks making the choices that they do which might have nothing to do with their attitude, their approach or their professionalism, etc.  And no, while I am being emphatic, I'm not tryin' to pick a fight, just firmly make a point. Promise...

One question -- TPU??

I've saved the links to the "proper" white shirts. They do look "more correct" to me as well.

Your time and assistance are appreciated.

Well said, Col. Boyd! And give my regards to your father - his signature graces both my Mitchell and Earhart certificates.

[LTC_Gadget]

give my regards to your father - his signature graces both my Mitchell and Earhart certificates.

Wilco.
I managed to get one senior program certificate that had his sig.  I had him physically undersign the autopen sig just for grinz...

V/R,

[captrncap]

I'm sorry but I remain confused about which shirt is an exact match to the AF-Style blue shirt only in white?

I read and re-read this post several times.

Thanks for your help.