White Aviator shirt-AF Style

[DrJbdm]

Hey everyone, I found a website that sells the white aviator shirt that is cut to AF standards for the Blues. Here's what the webpage says about them. "65% polyester, 35% Cotton Ring Spun Poplin, epaulets, two mitered, pleated pockets and flaps, wing eyelets,  short sleeve white only. Based on the Air Force dress uniform."

  Here's the link to the page: http://www.tallyhouniforms.com/p_shirt.htm

I figure these would look much more professional looking then what Vanguard sells. They are alot cheaper too.  I just ordered one for the TPU.

[DNall]

That really isn't bad. It would look a lot better I think.

[Camas]

I'd be concerned about those wing eyelets, especially for those who don't qualify for wings.  This is another option though it's more money.

[carnold1836]

I wear that shirt and although the eyelets are visable they aren't to terribly noticeable, unless I'm wrong, Dennis saw me in that uniform this weekend at TXWG cadet competion.

[DNall]

I did notice the eyelets, but nothing about the pocket. Let me say two quick things there.

The eyelets themselves aren't very noticable, but the pad of extra backer material is. That's not much of an issue since people tend to wear white cardboard or similiar behind badges anyway. If you don't have some kind of badge there though it looks a little silly. If you'll check with the manufacture though, I believe I heard at one point that they are avail w/o the eyelets for the same price. Don't know for sure.

I said I didn't notice the pockets & that doesn't mean anything about importance. If things look like they are supposed to look in people's mind then it blends into the background & is not noticed. That's a good thng, and it happens on a subconscious level. In CAP circles there is so much varriation in those shirts that it'll all blend in, but if I were in a location where I'd be around AF people &/or facilities on a regular basis & wanted to wear that uniform (especially with the blue pants/slides) I'd go with the AF-style pockets that'll more quickly put them at ease.

I have a little tighter rules in my head for how much junk you should put on an AF-style blues shirt versus the white shirt, particularly for junior officers. I just mention that to say there's som room to work here, but it would be nice if NHQ would standardize the pocket style to the AF shirt in a reasonable phase in/out period.

[Camas]

I have a little tighter rules in my head for how much junk you should put on an AF-style blues shirt versus the white shirt, particularly for junior officers.

Please share your thoughts; I'd be curious.

I have a white shirt by Elbeco that I've saved for wearing with the TPU's but I agree that the pleated pocket is the way to go. I might just consider getting one. The white shirt/blue trousers combo is popular up here in ORWG though I have yet to see anyone in the new corporate service coat.

[DNall]

I have a little tighter rules in my head for how much junk you should put on an AF-style blues shirt versus the white shirt, particularly for junior officers.

Please share your thoughts; I'd be curious.

Okay sure, just don't get sucked off into a tangent... my personal view is fairly simple, & flows from a practical standpoint & common practice in AF officer customs.

The AF standard for badges is simple. Wings & spec badges go over the left (ribbon side) pocket; pick two, if you have wings you must wear those so pick one & you're encouraged to make that your primary specialty. The pocket is for duty badges (which is only NB/NEC in CAP, but CP & AE have the look & must be worn in that position). Name side is only for the CC badge. I stick pretty close to that.

Junior officers in the real military should wear ribbons as rarely as possible. You look stupid with two ribbons on your chest telling an SNCO what to do, it draws attention to your lack of experience & doesn't reinforce confidence in your authority, position, or competence. Real Mil NCOs should wear their ribbons more often for exactly the inverse of those reasons. On the other end of the spectrum, more experienced officers wearing the giant stack give the impression they're holding their experience over your head. Apply this to CAP as you see fit. Consider upper level cadet officers & their egos/attitudes.

I wear only the MO wings & GBD badge with the shirt. Even though CP is my primary specialty, wearing anything on the pocket seems over the top.

Now you can apply that standard to the white shirt or not. You have to make your own decisions on what to wear or not & why you're doing it. In all honesty... the people in the white shirt tend to be the least militarized among us, regardless of their background. I don't think less of them or consciously prejudge them, but my expectations on first impression are lower for the uniform, and a lot of times that bleeds to an assessment of their military skills, line leadership abilities, etc. It's not that they can't very quickly establish their credentials & reshape my opinion of them, they very much can, but that takes an effort. Really if you wear that uniform right you can establish that position w/o opening your mouth (not many garters hanging from white shirts), but that's the same situation wear you can wear an AF uniform badly & that's going to shape my impression of you as well.

The service coat is a whole other deal, but it bears on this because it allows me to stick to these standards pretty religiously. I can set the coat up once & leave it for a quarter or more, but have to clean & redo the shirts once or twice a month. I end up wearing it a lot actually. I'm 31 & look even younger then that, but joined CAP 13 years ago as a SM at 18, have a great deal of ES & CP experience, more than the majority of CAP members (not all by far). If I'm in a situation, like say an SLS, where I'm dealing with adults that are older than me but only have a few years in CAP, or same thing with cadet officers, it's very helpful to establish my credentials right there w/o the hassle of consciously making an effort, so that the first words out of my mouth can be about getting the job done.

I know the situation is different with the corporate service coat, cause that thing is freaking expensive & not avail from surplus, used, etc. Plus most people don't like the design/appearance.

Look, in the end you're going to have to do what you think is right & know why you're doing it, and know that you'll be judged for better or worse based on your decisions. You have to apply some balance & self-restraint, but still be proud & back up put together a professional looking foundation to preface your words & actions. I don't want to get jumped on for my view of the corporate uniforms, that's just the nature of the beast & everyone knows that, & they know there are exceptions to the rule as well.

[DrJbdm]

I wear that shirt and although the eyelets are visable they aren't to terribly noticeable, unless I'm wrong, Dennis saw me in that uniform this weekend at TXWG cadet competion.

  Chris, I don't think I've ever noticed the white shirt you wear being any different then the others. But I'll admit that I tend not to look too close at the white shirt when worn with the grey pants. I notice the difference in the white shirt much more when worn with the TPU, I guess because the Vanguard white aviator shirt looks so completely different then the Air Force style cut of the blue AF shirt.

  Thats why I like this shirt that I posted on, It's much closer to the AF style cut. If I'm not mistaken the only difference would be the color and the wing eyelets. I wish I could have it with out the eyelets but seeing how I wear Pilots wings I'm guessing it wouldn't make a difference anyhow.

[Major_Chuck]

You might be able to get a good deal on some surplus JetBlue aviator shirts here in the next week or so...just kidding.

I've found some very similiar white aviator shirts also at a police uniform supply store here in Richmond.  No ones caught the slight differences (velcro'd  tabs on the shirt with a faux button).

[DrJbdm]

I really just hate the cut and the look of the white aviator shirts sold thru vanguard. They are cut large so they look sloppy, then without having pocket pleats they don't quite look the same as the AF shirt. The sleeves are very large as well. Just doesn't look right.

[DNall]

You want a simple fix like getting Vanguard to carry the right shirt, I'm for that 100%, and would also be for 39-1 spelling out the pocket style. DoD spells out Milspec on everything down to the the smallest detail, and that's what they give to manufactures & others can submit to have approved. They should be doing that absolutely.

[Camas]

Okay sure, just don't get sucked off into a tangent

No tangent - just curiousity.  Based on your posts I assumed you've had quite a bit of experience.  Thanks for the input.

[DNall]

sure, hope it helps.

[DrJbdm]

CAP seems to have a problem in correctly stating the exact requirements for uniforms. I think they need to adopt the same DoD Milspec for uniforms...including the white aviator shirt, simply change the color to white. Otherwise have it manufactured to the same DoD milspec as for the AF blues. I'm sure Vanguard could do it, Hell National had the corporate service coat manufactured.

[AlphaSigOU]

CAP seems to have a problem in correctly stating the exact requirements for uniforms. I think they need to adopt the same DoD Milspec for uniforms...including the white aviator shirt, simply change the color to white. Otherwise have it manufactured to the same DoD milspec as for the AF blues. I'm sure Vanguard could do it, Hell National had the corporate service coat manufactured.

And I'm still waiting on my TPU service dress coat... 

[NAYBOR]

I emailed Susan Parker at NHQ last year when the TPU was introduced about members being able to wear the AF-style aviator shirt.  She said it was OK.  I bought mine from Talley-Ho, and they're not bad at all.

Camas, I clicked your link, but got a VBScript error.  Could you post the link again (to a place with shirts without the eyelets, I assume)?  Thanks!

[DNall]

And I'm still waiting on my TPU service dress coat... 

I assume you've called & nagged vanguard recently. If that's not working then I'd call HQ. I foget who it is, but there's someone up there tasked with dealing w/ problems related to vanguard (and taking complaints).

[Camas]

Could you post the link again (to a place with shirts without the eyelets, I assume)?  Thanks!

Try this one

http://www.pilotshirts.com/products.asp?dept=12

[DNall]

That doesn't have the AF-style pockets.

[ddelaney103]

OK, let me see if I've got this straight...

For the blue uniform with white shirt, you can wear a shirt with either plain buttoned pockets or buttoned pockets with the AF-style pleat.  For the white shirt with the gray pants you wear the white plain pocketed shirt.

Why?