Honorable Service Ribbon Initiative

[PaulR]

What is the status of the initiative to create an Honorable Service Ribbon?  I feel that the member who made the proposal had a great idea. 

[lordmonar]

I don't see the need.

Just wear your military ribbons.

[jeders]

I believe this was for the corporate uniform where military ribbons weren't allowed.

[JeffDG]

IIRC, it failed for lack of second at the NB meeting where it was proposed.

[James Shaw]

What is the status of the initiative to create an Honorable Service Ribbon?  I feel that the member who made the proposal had a great idea.

It was put before the board twice and it failed both times to get a second. It was also discussed quite a bit before the board and the support was not there.

[PaulR]

That is a real shame.  It was truly an excellent idea.  What were some of the cons brought up by the board? 

[JohnKachenmeister]

IIRC, the con was that brain-dead CAP officers would become confused and wear it on the USAF uniform.  It was specifically designed to NOT be worn on the USAF uniform, since it would duplicate what military ribbons represented.

[PaulR]

I thought that it could be worn in lieu of military ribbons on the AF uniform as well, as an option. 

Well, it is a good idea... keep bringing it up.  Sooner or later, it will get approved. 

[JeffDG]

I thought that it could be worn in lieu of military ribbons on the AF uniform as well, as an option. 

Well, it is a good idea... keep bringing it up.  Sooner or later, it will get approved.

Well, a motion that fails for lack of second means you've got a LONG way to go, over 30 votes shy as a matter of fact.

[lordmonar]

I thought that it could be worn in lieu of military ribbons on the AF uniform as well, as an option. 

Well, it is a good idea... keep bringing it up.  Sooner or later, it will get approved.

The only way I would support it......is if was used to replace all military ribons on all uniforms....not optional.

Our uniform rules are already a mess as they are....we need to make them simpler.

[flyboy53]

Sorry, I'd rather wear my military stuff.

I felt this was just another lame ribbon in a pile of ribbons that really don't have that much meaning. Besides, one ribbon doesn't make up for seven decorations and five rows of ribbons. We would be better served trying to get NHQ to adopt full-sized medals instead of another ribbon.

[Major Carrales]

Sorry, I'd rather wear my military stuff.

I felt this was just another lame ribbon in a pile of ribbons that really don't have that much meaning. Besides, one ribbon doesn't make up for seven decorations and five rows of ribbons. We would be better served trying to get NHQ to adopt full-sized medals instead of another ribbon.

While I agree that full-sized medals would be a good idea.  I find your demeaning of CAP awards insulting.  CAP ribbons have meaning, don't belittle them through "apples/oranges" comparisons to military awards.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

IIRC, the con was that brain-dead CAP officers would become confused and wear it on the USAF uniform.  It was specifically designed to NOT be worn on the USAF uniform, since it would duplicate what military ribbons represented.

Doesn't that kind of disenfranchise those CAP members who have no prior military service, and yet choose to wear the AF-type uniform, who are losing the CSU through incomprehensible thinking by National and who don't like the mall cop uniform?

Heck, all NHQ would have to do is authorise a version of the Commemorative HSM available from Medals of America (though it probably couldn't be worn on the AF uniform, since "commemoratives" aren't authorised for military uniform):

[cap235629]

IIRC, the con was that brain-dead CAP officers would become confused and wear it on the USAF uniform.  It was specifically designed to NOT be worn on the USAF uniform, since it would duplicate what military ribbons represented.

Doesn't that kind of disenfranchise those CAP members who have no prior military service, and yet choose to wear the AF-type uniform, who are losing the CSU through incomprehensible thinking by National and who don't like the mall cop uniform?

Heck, all NHQ would have to do is authorise a version of the Commemorative HSM available from Medals of America (though it probably couldn't be worn on the AF uniform, since "commemoratives" aren't authorised for military uniform):

+1 on this, no cost to develop and looks sharp.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The "Armed Forces Of The United States" inscription would need to be changed.

[cap235629]

The "Armed Forces Of The United States" inscription would need to be changed.

UHHH Why?  This would represent honorable service in the Armed Forces. That is what the whole initiative was about......

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The "Armed Forces Of The United States" inscription would need to be changed.

UHHH Why?  This would represent honorable service in the Armed Forces. That is what the whole initiative was about......

My bad...I thought it was ribbon for CAP service, but we already have the Red Service Ribbon...

[Ned]

FWIW, I was in the room during the presentation of this proposal, and the general reaction was "we have too many ribbons as it is, and we shouldn't authorize another one (even for a good reason like this) until we have some sort of comprehensive review.'

So, my 2 cents would be to include this very worthwhile proposal as part of the whole "39-1 and 39-3 clean-up and revision process."  Preferably coupled with a proposal to de-authorize some current ribbons.

And yes, no one really knows when the 39-1 revisions will surface.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

And yes, no one really knows when the 39-1 revisions will surface.

Wake me when they do, will you, Sir?

But I agree that there are a few ribbons we have that could probably be consolidated.

[arajca]

I'm sure that, if there was some assurance our work would be looked at fairly, there's one or two folks here who happily take that chore on.

I'll be the first to sign on.

FWIW, I was in the room during the presentation of this proposal, and the general reaction was "we have too many ribbons as it is, and we shouldn't authorize another one (even for a good reason like this) until we have some sort of comprehensive review.'

So, my 2 cents would be to include this very worthwhile proposal as part of the whole "39-1 and 39-3 clean-up and revision process."  Preferably coupled with a proposal to de-authorize some current ribbons.

And yes, no one really knows when the 39-1 revisions will surface.

[flyboy53]

Sorry, I'd rather wear my military stuff.

I felt this was just another lame ribbon in a pile of ribbons that really don't have that much meaning. Besides, one ribbon doesn't make up for seven decorations and five rows of ribbons. We would be better served trying to get NHQ to adopt full-sized medals instead of another ribbon.

While I agree that full-sized medals would be a good idea.  I find your demeaning of CAP awards insulting.  CAP ribbons have meaning, don't belittle them through "apples/oranges" comparisons to military awards.

It has nothing to do with "demeaing" any awards/ribbons/decorations and more to explain to you that there are awards and medals that may mean more to the individual.

You want make CAP awards and decorations mean something, than clean up the system so that the ribbons/awards/decorations really mean something.

I don't know how many times in my 35 years in this organization, I've run into cadets and senior members who just put on ribbons and badges and try to pass themselves off as really earning them. Most recently, it was two cadets wearing ground team leader badges who had only recently earned GT-2. One of those cadets went to NBB and came back wearng a Find ribbon with devices and a SAR ribbon. The other cadet used his CAC position to somehow secure a Lifesaving Award Certificate and used that as justification to wear the ribbon. He never earned the award and his wearing it insults two CAP officers that I know personally who earned theirs during 9-11 at the World Trade Center.

We even had a former National Commander who allegedly directed traffic at an accident and put himself in for a Bronze Medal of Valor.

Those are just a few abuses of the program and just enough to demean the meaning of an award. My whole point was make the ribbons/awards/decorations really mean something. That is why my Air Force decorations/ribbons and awards mean more to me. The CAP Awards and Recognition Program is meant to lend to individual credibility and give true meaing to the achievement or sacrifice...and most importantly, my comments, were not meant to insult you.

[RiverAux]

It does not demean the award if people with no ethics wear the award without actually earning it the right way.  By that criteria the Medal of Honor is worthless because some whackos wear it that haven't earned it. 

[Major Carrales]

Any time someone tried to, by omission, design or on purpose, I have to "call" that as ridiculous.  CAP Ribbons, badges and awards are represent the merits and gratitude of the organization of which you and I belong and, thus, you should all share my desire to see them have meaning.

I'll call the same card on people who pull that with Law Enforcement and Fire awards. 

As for those wearing things they didn't earn, I share your annoyance and passionate indignation for them, for the same reason. 

[James Shaw]

Any time someone tried to, by omission, design or on purpose, I have to "call" that as ridiculous.  CAP Ribbons, badges and awards are represent the merits and gratitude of the organization of which you and I belong and, thus, you should all share my desire to see them have meaning.

+1


I think the concept of the thing was great but the overall need for it is not there. Those that have served in the RM  can still wear them on the appropriate CAP uniform. If we were to do something like that than they should just allow the NDSM to be worn on the CAP distinctive. However as one mentioned earlier it is being phased out.

[cap235629]

I think the concept of the thing was great but the overall need for it is not there. Those that have served in the RM  can still wear them on the appropriate CAP uniform. If we were to do something like that than they should just allow the NDSM to be worn on the CAP distinctive. However as one mentioned earlier it is being phased out.

Again you are missing the segment of the membership that either choose to or only can wear the Corporate uniforms.

[James Shaw]

Again you are missing the segment of the membership that either choose to or only can wear the Corporate uniforms.

The corporate jacket is being phased out and therefore would negate the need overall.

[CAP Producer]

I think the concept of the thing was great but the overall need for it is not there. Those that have served in the RM  can still wear them on the appropriate CAP uniform. If we were to do something like that than they should just allow the NDSM to be worn on the CAP distinctive. However as one mentioned earlier it is being phased out.

The only problem is that not all veterans served during the eligbility period for the NDSM.

It was authorized until the Vietman War ended in 1975 and re-authorized for the Gulf War in 1991 and is authorized to the present day.

There are many veterans who served between these 2 conflicts who were not eligible for the NDSM. That was one of the reasons why the Army created the Army Service Ribbon in 1981.

Again you are missing the segment of the membership that either choose to or only can wear the Corporate uniforms.

The corporate jacket is being phased out and therefore would negate the need overall.

CAP ribbons may still be worn on the Aviator Shirt Combo.

[James Shaw]

The only problem is that not all veterans served during the eligbility period for the NDSM.

It was authorized until the Vietman War ended in 1975 and re-authorized for the Gulf War in 1991 and is authorized to the present day.

There are many veterans who served between these 2 conflicts who were not eligible for the NDSM. That was one of the reasons why the Army created the Army Service Ribbon in 1981.

CAP ribbons may still be worn on the Aviator Shirt Combo.

I understand the reasoning but do not see the need for it.

[cap235629]

I think the concept of the thing was great but the overall need for it is not there. Those that have served in the RM  can still wear them on the appropriate CAP uniform. If we were to do something like that than they should just allow the NDSM to be worn on the CAP distinctive. However as one mentioned earlier it is being phased out.

The only problem is that not all veterans served during the eligbility period for the NDSM.

It was authorized until the Vietman War ended in 1975 and re-authorized for the Gulf War in 1991 and is authorized to the present day.

There are many veterans who served between these 2 conflicts who were not eligible for the NDSM. That was one of the reasons why the Army created the Army Service Ribbon in 1981.

Again you are missing the segment of the membership that either choose to or only can wear the Corporate uniforms.

The corporate jacket is being phased out and therefore would negate the need overall.

CAP ribbons may still be worn on the Aviator Shirt Combo.

But military ribbons are not, hence the initiative.  caphistorian there are MANY members who have served that fall into the category I mentioned who have no way of wearing their "resume" because Military Awards cannot be worn on CAP uniforms (which in my opinion is unfair because all services but the Air Force allow the wear of ribbons on civilian clothing, which the corporate "uniforms" are).  The service of a slim and trim veteran is no more worthy of recognition than that of a fat and fuzzy veteran.  So if the fat and fuzzies cannot wear military awards, I move that no member be allowed to wear military awards on ANY uniform, in the spirit of fairness.

[cap235629]

The only problem is that not all veterans served during the eligbility period for the NDSM.

It was authorized until the Vietman War ended in 1975 and re-authorized for the Gulf War in 1991 and is authorized to the present day.

There are many veterans who served between these 2 conflicts who were not eligible for the NDSM. That was one of the reasons why the Army created the Army Service Ribbon in 1981.

CAP ribbons may still be worn on the Aviator Shirt Combo.

I understand the reasoning but do not see the need for it.

In looking at your ribbon rack in your signature I notice no military awards.  Is this because you choose not to wear them or because you are not a veteran?  If it is the latter I suggest that your opinion might be colored by your lack of experience with the issue at hand.

[James Shaw]

But military ribbons are not, hence the initiative.  caphistorian there are MANY members who have served that fall into the category I mentioned who have no way of wearing their "resume" because Military Awards cannot be worn on CAP uniforms (which in my opinion is unfair because all services but the Air Force allow the wear of ribbons on civilian clothing, which the corporate "uniforms" are).  The service of a slim and trim veteran is no more worthy of recognition than that of a fat and fuzzy veteran.  So if the fat and fuzzies cannot wear military awards, I move that no member be allowed to wear military awards on ANY uniform, in the spirit of fairness.

I understand and do not disagree with the initiative.

I fall into those categories of AD Navy and Army as well as the fat and fuzzy. We can wear the AD ribbons on the CAP uniform. I am not against it.

In looking at your ribbon rack in your signature I notice no military awards.  Is this because you choose not to wear them or because you are not a veteran?  If it is the latter I suggest that your opinion might be colored by your lack of experience with the issue at hand.

I wore them at one time when I first joined. When I received the SMV I was asked by my Commander to wear my CAP stuff only. You could look at previous posts of this nature and see that I have always felt that if you earned them than wear them. I received a total of 11 when I was on AD. When I wore all of them I was told I was being prideful and pretentious for the display.

[cap235629]

I fall into those categories of AD Navy and Army as well as the fat and fuzzy. We can wear the AD ribbons on the CAP uniform. I am not against it.

Actually we can only wear them on the CAP "AF Style uniform" NOT on the now defunct CSU or the Aviator uniform. Hence the problem.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Really, what is the problem with us wearing all that we have been awarded with?

I can understand the idea that some times too much can clutter the uniform, but then again look at the BDU, one patch on each pocket on the breast, two badges above the CAP tape, and one large patch above the name tape, now who is talking about cluttered?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am proud of what I have done, both AD and CAP. I want to be able to display all of it that I can.

I think that the ribbons/ mini medals would look better and be more on a level plane if military ribbons were mingled in with the CAP ribbons. Something to the effect of; MMBR ribbon, NDSM, Good conduct, (skipping ahead to way up top) BMOV, Bronze Star, Silver Star, SMOV, MOH.

Sort of make things more to where you show that this CAP medal is comparable in CAP to this medal in the Armed Forces. I know I am not the only one who has thought about this, even the CGAux does it this way.

[CAP Producer]

Really, what is the problem with us wearing all that we have been awarded with?

I can understand the idea that some times too much can clutter the uniform, but then again look at the BDU, one patch on each pocket on the breast, two badges above the CAP tape, and one large patch above the name tape, now who is talking about cluttered?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am proud of what I have done, both AD and CAP. I want to be able to display all of it that I can.

I think that the ribbons/ mini medals would look better and be more on a level plane if military ribbons were mingled in with the CAP ribbons. Something to the effect of; MMBR ribbon, NDSM, Good conduct, (skipping ahead to way up top) BMOV, Bronze Star, Silver Star, SMOV, MOH.

Sort of make things more to where you show that this CAP medal is comparable in CAP to this medal in the Armed Forces. I know I am not the only one who has thought about this, even the CGAux does it this way.

You have every right to be proud of your military and CAP achivements/awards LT, but sometimes simple humility (in a plain uniform) is better.

[flyboy53]

Or, by choice, present a conservative appearance in uniform. All of us seem to be very proud of our service, as we should be, but I chose to wear only my AF stuff, not because I am disregarding my CAP service, but because if I were to wear everything, I'd have 30+ ribbons. For me, that's a little too much. I believe it sends the wrong message, especially to cadets.

I am curious, though, about the wearing of military ribbons on civilian clothing. When the comment was made, I realized that veterans groups wear military stuff on their "civilian" distintive uniforms. I am also aware of different police agencies which will allow a veteran to wear their highest military award on a police uniform, so I wonder who made the determination that you couldn't wear military stuff on a corporate uniform?

[spacecommand]

No room not even for the highest CAP ribbon you have?  Senior Members are not required to wear every single ribbon they have been awarded, many do, some do not, nor does it need to be the highest ribbon awarded.

Any case, I do see there needs to be something for senior members who wear the corporate equivalent to show prior military service, if they so choose to.

[flyboy53]

No room not even for the highest CAP ribbon you have?  Senior Members are not required to wear every single ribbon they have been awarded, many do, some do not, nor does it need to be the highest ribbon awarded.

Any case, I do see there needs to be something for senior members who wear the corporate equivalent to show prior military service, if they so choose to.

I should consider that, I have four Commander's Commendations and a GRW. Those are the two that mean the most to me.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I have cut my rack down to only wearing my IRQ Camp, AFG Camp, ARCOM (x2), GCM, and NATO ISAF, with all of my CAP ribbons. It doesn't look much different at all, but I will never take my CIB off.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Anyways, what is to stop CAP from allowing us to wear our earned ribbons and awards from the Army USMC USN USCG? The uniform isn't controlled by USAF, and all of those branches allow the wear of ribbons medals and devices on civilian attire, so long as they are in the same area as worn in uniform. The USAF is the only branch that seems to think they still own your awards.

[MIKE]

... but I will never take my CIB off.

You better pray that the next re-write of CAPM 39-1 doesn't fall into line with the current AFI 36-2903 then.

[Flying Pig]

^I have a buddy that was Jump Qual'd in the Marines.  He moved over to the Coast Guard as an Officer.  He was FLAMMIN" MAD when he realized that the CG doesnt wear Jump Wings   Not that he moved over for that, but he was pretty bummed.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I had a buddy that was Army INF, transferred to Army MP. He wore his Class A's with Infantry Cord and Infantry Disks under his Branch Insignia. He was told to take all of it off, except for his CIB. He said no, was written up, this kept happening about four times before he was given an Article 15, he refused to sign acknowledging the 15,so he went for Court Martial. He won the court martial because the regulations conflicted. One said once it is earned it wasn't to be taken off. Another said only while PMOS was 11B. Even the Army needs to clarify regs.

[MIKE]

^I have a buddy that was Jump Qual'd in the Marines.  He moved over to the Coast Guard as an Officer.  He was FLAMMIN" MAD when he realized that the CG doesnt wear Jump Wings   Not that he moved over for that, but he was pretty bummed.

If you earn them while in the Coast Guard you can wear them.  Not as strict with the Auxiliary uniform though.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I used to wear only my wings on the blue AF shirt.

Then the NLO wrote that: "Since CAP is a non-combat organization, the wearing of any combat awards of any type by CAP personnel is inappropriate."

Since then I've worn every decoration I got, including my combat awards.  ESPECIALLY my combat awards!

Note to NLO, if you are lurking:

"Inappropriate" is when you get drunk at the O-club and put the moves on another officer's wife.  (BTDT, got the counseling statement in my file).

"Inappropriate" is when you are in a general staff meeting and you release some rotten flatulence in an overcrowded conference room.  (BTDT, but I loudly blamed a major who I didn't like.  He was napping and I think I even convinced him that he was guilty).

"Inappropriate" is what the Staff Duty Officer called it when he came into the all-ranks club as I was teaching some enlisted guys some rowdy jody calls and beer-drinking songs.  (BTDT, but it WAS an all-ranks club, so nothing hit paper).

BUT... Wearing your earned combat awards is NOT inappropriate!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[manfredvonrichthofen]

BTDT to a couple of those same things. And agree it is not inappropriate!

[JohnKachenmeister]

I wear 24 ribbons, but the Good Conduct Medal is not among them!

[Hawk200]

I wear 24 ribbons, but the Good Conduct Medal is not among them!

Thought you were an officer?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I wear 24 ribbons, but the Good Conduct Medal is not among them!

Thought you were an officer?

Don't matter, you have to go 3 years in the military with no negative actions at all to get a GCM.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm a mustang.  I was an E-6 when I stepped up to get the gold bar.

[SARDOC]

I wear 24 ribbons, but the Good Conduct Medal is not among them!

Thought you were an officer?

Don't matter, you have to go 3 years in the military with no negative actions at all to get a GCM.

only enlisted members are eligible for good conduct medals.  Officers are always assumed to be gentlemen...enlisted, eh not so much     

[Major Carrales]

Kach...those words by the NLO were unfortunate.  The wearing of earned US Military awards and decorations is an honor, never inappropriate.

[Hawk200]

I'm a mustang.  I was an E-6 when I stepped up to get the gold bar.

Didn't realize that, thought you started at a butterbar.

So how long did it take you to make E-6? (Yeah, I'm wondering how many GCMs you ended up "bypassing"  )

[FARRIER]

You have every right to be proud of your military and CAP achievements/awards LT, but sometimes simple humility (in a plain uniform) is better.

Respectfully non-concur. If its earned, its not bragging.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I had a buddy that was Army INF, transferred to Army MP. He wore his Class A's with Infantry Cord and Infantry Disks under his Branch Insignia.

Did he wear the light-blue Infantry shoulder cord too?

I ask this because my dad wore the Infantry light-blue shoulder cord and disks, and Infantry cross-muskets (I arranged most of them in a shadow-box for him before he died).

However, my dad was not in an Infantry unit.  He was in the 4th Armored Division, Erlangen, West Germany, 1957-1959.

If, if, IF a revised 39-1 is ever issued, I hope it clarifies some of this stuff.

There are a lot of murky areas; CGAUX ribbons are not actually prohibited in words, some say they can wear them, some say they can't (I don't wear mine simply because I don't want to start an argument with someone).

I've seen people wear State NG ribbons on the AF/CAP uniform, and that's not allowed.

I was incredulous when I read LTC Kachenmeister's account of what the NLO said about combat awards.  If my dad had ever joined CAP and was told he couldn't wear his Army Rifle Marksman's badge (below)...well, let's just say that he had the stubbornness of the Scottish and the fire of the Irish, and in the end probably would have not joined.

[FARRIER]

It doesn't help to have this mindset floating around the organization if we are trying to recruit new members, especially veterans of this decade's wars.

I had a buddy that was Army INF, transferred to Army MP. He wore his Class A's with Infantry Cord and Infantry Disks under his Branch Insignia.

Did he wear the light-blue Infantry shoulder cord too?

I ask this because my dad wore the Infantry light-blue shoulder cord and disks, and Infantry cross-muskets (I arranged most of them in a shadow-box for him before he died).

However, my dad was not in an Infantry unit.  He was in the 4th Armored Division, Erlangen, West Germany, 1957-1959.

If, if, IF a revised 39-1 is ever issued, I hope it clarifies some of this stuff.

There are a lot of murky areas; CGAUX ribbons are not actually prohibited in words, some say they can wear them, some say they can't (I don't wear mine simply because I don't want to start an argument with someone).

I've seen people wear State NG ribbons on the AF/CAP uniform, and that's not allowed.

I was incredulous when I read LTC Kachenmeister's account of what the NLO said about combat awards.  If my dad had ever joined CAP and was told he couldn't wear his Army Rifle Marksman's badge (below)...well, let's just say that he had the stubbornness of the Scottish and the fire of the Irish, and in the end probably would have not joined.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm a mustang.  I was an E-6 when I stepped up to get the gold bar.

Didn't realize that, thought you started at a butterbar.

So how long did it take you to make E-6? (Yeah, I'm wondering how many GCMs you ended up "bypassing"  )

Part of the problem was that I switched services... my actual conduct was only secondary, since I was smart enough to not get caught.

I was Navy Reserve, and did 2 years AD.  Navy requires 4 years for a GCM.

After the Navy, and after finishing college, I went into the Army Guard, and only did short tours of AD... never a full three years at a time.

AFTER I was commissioned, I did 6 years on the AGR program, but as an officer you don't get a GCM.

My combat time was all as a Navy hospital corpsman.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Cyborg:

Actually, you can't wear the Army (or Marine) shooting brass on the AF uniform.  Since the Air Force awards a ribbon for expert marksmanship, their regulations prohibit the shooting medal-type award.

Army and Marine awards are outlawed, but Air Force and Navy (also a ribbon) shooting awards are OK.

[bosshawk]

A small piece of explanation on Syborg's comment that his dad was not in an Infantry unit, but in the 4th Armored Division.  Armored Divisions have Infantry battalions, so he may have well been in an INF  Bn in the 4th Armored: they are often called Armored Infantry Bns(or at least used to be called that).  In my day, an AD had four tank battalions and 5 infantry bns.

Syborg: I happened to be in Germany at the same time that your Dad was there.

[lordmonar]

There are a lot of murky areas; CGAUX ribbons are not actually prohibited in words, some say they can wear them, some say they can't (I don't wear mine simply because I don't want to start an argument with someone).

I've seen people wear State NG ribbons on the AF/CAP uniform, and that's not allowed.

I don't know what is murky about it.

Below are the two applicable paragraphs from CAP 39-1.  CAP members may wear awards and decorations prescribed in CAPR 39-3 AND/OR Military Service Awards and Decorations.   Nowhere is there anything about CGAUX. 

Now the NG types may (I SAY AGAIN MAY) have a leg to stand on as their state service is military service.....however.....IMHO the fact the AD USAF does not want NG types wearing their NG ribbons when on EAD orders....does come into play.

5-1. Wear of Awards and Decorations. Awards and decorations prescribed by CAPR 39-3, Award of
CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates, will be worn only by CAP members for whom they have been
authorized and only on those uniforms outlined below. Figure 5-1 outlines the proper arrangement and
placement on service uniforms. Ribbons and medals will not be worn on the utility uniform, field
uniform, CAP blazer (exception one miniature medal may be worn on the semiformal blazer uniform),
battle dress uniform, flight suits, and in no case will they be worn on the overcoat, raincoat, all-weather
coat, or lightweight blue jacket.

5-4. Military Service Awards. Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform
provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority. Awards of the Air Force,
Army, Navy, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard will be worn in the order prescribed by the awarding
service, subject to the following: In all cases of relative priority, Air Force awards will take precedence.
See Table 5-3. Awards for wars, campaigns, expeditions etc., will be worn in chronological sequence.
a. Three JROTC/ROTC ribbons awarded by military departments may be worn following all other
ribbons (except foreign ribbons) while the member concerned is participating in the JROTC/ROTC
program. When the member is no longer participating in the JROTC/ROTC program, JROTC/ROTC
ribbons will be removed.
b. Foreign decorations are so many and so varied, the number and combinations that may be worn
will not be prescribed; however, good taste and judgment should prevail. Only those decorations that
have been duly approved by Congress for acceptance and wear by the individual may be worn.

[Hawk200]

Now the NG types may (I SAY AGAIN MAY) have a leg to stand on as their state service is military service.....however.....IMHO the fact the AD USAF does not want NG types wearing their NG ribbons when on EAD orders....does come into play.

My gripe about it is that foreign awards are permitted, and you know who said civilian decorations were permitted (and you know someone is wearing it) when those Deptartment of the Army civilian medals were awarded and a big writeup was made about them.

I don't wear mine anyway, one is too hard to get for anything other than my military uniform; and I couldn't wear the rack on my shirt and have it look right. I've chosen eighteen of my military and CAP ribbons, it's the best I can really do. It's mostly medals and when it comes to CAP ribbons I drop Levels One and Two. About to drop the Level Three as soon as Four comes in.

[RiverAux]

I think he was talking about actual Coast Guard awards earned by members of the CG Auxiliary and the fact that the CAP uniform and award regulations differ on whether or not they are allowed on CAP uniforms.

[flyboy53]

You guys are splitting hairs.

First to JohnKachenmeister, although your prior military service may not allow you to be eligible for an active duty Good Conduct Medal, your combined enlisted/commissioned service in the NG may entitle you to the Army Reserve Components Achievement Medal. Like the Air Force Reserve's Air Reserve Forces Meritorious Service Medal, these awards are actually Good Conduct Medals awarded to Reserve Forces. The Air Force Reserve Allows a commissioned officer to earn one if there was a change of status (from enlisted) after one year. Under the same criteria, you can earn the medal or a device if there is a change in status, i.e, called to active duty after one year. I believe the NG and Army Reseve allow the same. I'd check with your state NG Headquarters.

You are also entitled to wear what used to be the coveted Armed Forces Reserve Medal with hourglass device. I have one with a "M" device as well. Only members of the Organized Reserve, National Guard, Organized State Militia have the opportunity to earn this medal. The only other ones who are entitled to this medal are Reserve-commissioned officers or Reservists on extended active duty.

That said, the one thing you guys are missing in this string is that there are FEDERAL awards given even to the NG that continue to be worn if that individual goes on active duty.

I can understand NHQ's stand about the state-specific NG awards because the same rule is being applied to us that would be applied to a National Guardsman/woman on active duty...please don't mince words like, "we're not on active duty." We are, however, federally funded and Congressionally chartered.

The same thing applies to a member of the Coast Guard Auxiliary. I don't believe the Coast Guard Auxiliary allows state awards, either. The way they are organized, they get to qualify for FEDERAL awards where we do not and that's too bad, because I think that would be kind of neat if the opportunity was presented.

One other thing, if one of you is fortunate enough to earn a DoD Civilian Decoration, the award criteria was set a long time ago by the Air Force, and it is the Air Force that permits the wearing of such awards and decorations on a military uniform. This is not because of DoD Civilian Awards, although they are included, but more to recognize those holders of things like the Medal of Freedom or anything presented by NASA, the U.S. Public Health Service or NOAA.

It is this same hair splitting that causes grave mis-representations of CAP and Air Force Regulations and causes uninformed individuals to pass judgement on others and tell them, in direct violation of the regulations, that certain medals, especially combat-related, can't be worn.

[Hawk200]

One other thing, if one of you is fortunate enough to earn a DoD Civilian Decoration, the award criteria was set a long time ago by the Air Force, and it is the Air Force that permits the wearing of such awards and decorations on a military uniform. This is not because of DoD Civilian Awards, although they are included, but more to recognize those holders of things like the Medal of Freedom or anything presented by NASA, the U.S. Public Health Service or NOAA.

It is this same hair splitting that causes grave mis-representations of CAP and Air Force Regulations and causes uninformed individuals to pass judgement on others and tell them, in direct violation of the regulations, that certain medals, especially combat-related, can't be worn.

The state decs used to be authorized. They were dropped from the most recent pub. No explanation given, they just disappeared.

However, I don't think foreign decs should be authorized when there are decs from this country that aren't permitted. That's screwy. The pubs contradict themselves, in that it says "awarded in writing by competent military authority", but then goes to listing and denying anything on the list. Last I checked, my chain of command in the Guard was certainly "competent military authority." They've met the same requirements.

As for military awards/decs/badges on the corporates, I don't think it would take much to send each uniformed service a letter requesting authorization. Add copies of the approval letter from each to the 39-1 as an appendix, and be done with it. I seriously doubt that it would be declined, but no one will ever know unless they ask.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I do rate the Army Reserve Components Achievement medal w/ 2 OLC's.  I wish you wouldn't compare it to the Good Conduct Medal.  It might ruin my carefully-crafted bad-boy image.  Chicks dig bad boys.  I also have the Armed Forces Reserve Medal (10 years of being the Christmas Help) with a 20-year hourglass and an "M" device.  My unit was mobilized, but the war ended before we got there, so they laid us back off.

The problem with the NLO isn't confusion as to what can be worn, it's animosity.  He is of the opinion that, since CAP is a "Non-combat" organization, that combat vets are not welcome, and if some of us do, in fact, slither into CAP, we should conceal our status by being prohibited from wearing our awards.

In the case of the TPU, he weighed in that military awards should continue to be prohibited.  He hasn't won the fight yet on the USAF uniform.  He said wearing combat awards was "Inappropriate" for CAP members.

As far as I am concerned, he is the south end of a northbound horse.

[davidsinn]

As far as I am concerned, he is the south end of a northbound horse.

You are way too kind, sir.

[Hawk200]

As far as I am concerned, he is the south end of a northbound horse.

You are way too kind, sir.

Second.

I get a kick out if though. Many people joined CAP because they couldn't go in the military.

[davidsinn]

As far as I am concerned, he is the south end of a northbound horse.

You are way too kind, sir.

Second.

I get a kick out if though. Many people joined CAP because they couldn't go in the military.

Guilty. Medical DQ.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

My gripe about it is that foreign awards are permitted

When did that change?

I was in a squadron that had a retired RCAF French-Canadian F-5 driver with I don't know how many hours who'd moved Stateside to fly for United.

He could not wear his Canadian ribbons.

All he could wear was the metal version of his Canadian pilot's wings over his right pocket and nameplate, and (I think) the cloth version on his service coat right breast.






Of course, this was over 10 years ago.

[Major Carrales]

I don't support the notion of rivalries between "Prior Service" versus "Non-Prior Service," it takes away from the Mission.  We will honor the service of both.

[flyboy53]

The problem with the NLO isn't confusion as to what can be worn, it's animosity.  He is of the opinion that, since CAP is a "Non-combat" organization, that combat vets are not welcome, and if some of us do, in fact, slither into CAP, we should conceal our status by being prohibited from wearing our awards.

Pardon my ignorance, but who or what is NLO? I suppose he would want to re-write our WW II history and ignore the 800 Air Medals....wonder what those recipients would call him?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Foreigh awards earned while a member of the US military can be worn, although the regulations are confused as to their precedence.  Foreign awards earned as a member of a foreign military can be worn with approval of NHQ.

I do not think NHQ would have a problem with Canadian awards, but back in the day they might have had a cow over an ex-Luftwaffe pilot wearing a Knight's Cross.

Today, I don't think there would be a problem, since nobody knows what the Knight's Cross is.  Or what the Luftwaffe is.

Or... anything about World War II except that it likely followed World War I.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The problem with the NLO isn't confusion as to what can be worn, it's animosity.  He is of the opinion that, since CAP is a "Non-combat" organization, that combat vets are not welcome, and if some of us do, in fact, slither into CAP, we should conceal our status by being prohibited from wearing our awards.

Pardon my ignorance, but who or what is NLO? I suppose he would want to re-write our WW II history and ignore the 800 Air Medals....wonder what those recipients would call him?

National Legal Officer

[JohnKachenmeister]

And the NLO probably doesn't even KNOW our history.

[JayT]

Note to NLO, if you are lurking:

"Inappropriate" is when you get drunk at the O-club and put the moves on another officer's wife.  (BTDT, got the counseling statement in my file).

"Inappropriate" is when you are in a general staff meeting and you release some rotten flatulence in an overcrowded conference room.  (BTDT, but I loudly blamed a major who I didn't like.  He was napping and I think I even convinced him that he was guilty).

"Inappropriate" is what the Staff Duty Officer called it when he came into the all-ranks club as I was teaching some enlisted guys some rowdy jody calls and beer-drinking songs.  (BTDT, but it WAS an all-ranks club, so nothing hit paper).

BUT... Wearing your earned combat awards is NOT inappropriate!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blasting a national level staff officer. Check.

Telling a juvie level 'fart' joke. Check.

Telling two stories about  getting drunk, one of them involving taking a pass at another officers wife. Check.

Any other lessons you would like to teach cadets on this board?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Whatever the reason, this RCAF guy couldn't wear any of his ribbons.

The Luftwaffe example you cite...maybe he could have worn the later version of his Ritterkreuz.  In 1957 all Wehrmacht awards/qualification badges were reissued without the swastika.





However, I have heard of cases where WWII Luftwaffe veterans being trained postwar by the RAF, USAF, and RCAF were ordered to remove their decorations.