What constitutes a "Highly Decorated CAP Officer?"

[Major Carrales]

During a recent CAP activity a comment was made in a joking manner.  One CAP Officer remarked that another was a "well respected and highly decorated SEE-AY-PEA Officer."  Now, what does that mean?  I know it was a sort of "throw away" phrase, but I thought it was just the sort of thing that CAP TALKERS would enjoy debating.

So, what would be the defining criteria of a "highly decorated CAP Officer?" 

[BillB]

Joe,  That's easy. a highly decorated officer is anyone with ribbons that you have.

[MSG Mac]

Joe,  That's easy. a highly decorated officer is anyone with ribbons that you have.

No It's an officer who has ribbons you don't have

[Stonewall]

When I think of "highly decorated", I consider awards that have the word "valor" in them as well as life saving. 

[jimmydeanno]

Perhaps Justice Stewart's line works well here.

However, I do wonder what your thought process was about it.  Obviously, highly decorated, means one who has received a lot of decorations.  But, perhaps you're wondering if people consider you to be highly decorated in some of these scenarios.

20 Ribbons, no attachments,and nothing above the Gill Robb?

5 Ribbons, 4 of which are above the commanders' commendation?

10 ribbons, nothing overly fancy, but attachments on everything?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Highly Decorated? I think it takes a lot of ribbons/attachments above the achievement/award ribbons. Like this guy                            ^

[Major Carrales]

Joe,  That's easy. a highly decorated officer is anyone with ribbons that you have.

Do you mean the ribbons I, myself, have/has or the ribbons "one" has? 

I consider myself to have an "average man's" ribbons.

[SarDragon]

Perhaps Justice Stewart's line works well here.

However, I do wonder what your thought process was about it.  Obviously, highly decorated, means one who has received a lot of decorations.  But, perhaps you're wondering if people consider you to be highly decorated in some of these scenarios.

20 Ribbons, no attachments,and nothing above the Gill Robb?

Maybe. Depends on what they are. Encampment, ES stuff, DR, and activities that count for more than just showing up, would, IMHO, contribute to "highly decorated".

5 Ribbons, 4 of which are above the commanders' commendation?

Yes.

10 ribbons, nothing overly fancy, but attachments on everything?

Again, maybe. See above.

YMMV.

[Major Carrales]

When I think of "highly decorated", I consider awards that have the word "valor" in them as well as life saving.

This is a good start.  The MOV, some Meritorious Awards and the like.   I am asking this be limited to CAP awards only so the field can be as level as possible.

[Major Carrales]

Is it the number of ribbons or the nature of the ribbons there?  To the average person I havebeen told it is the number...a cadet, for example, would seem to have many more ribbons than a "through the ranks" CAP Senior Member Captain.

I consider my Group Commander to be "Highly Decorated" in that he has a Spaatz, many of the Senior Member Awards and severall commendations.

Would anyone consider Maj Gen Courter to fall in the "Highly Decorated" realm?



Or Col Joe Smith (Texas Wing Commander) in background, albeit obscured...

[Smithsonia]

There is another argument to be made for Quality versus Quantity.
http://www.spaatz.org/gen/spaatzbio.html

Carl Spaatz seldom wore more than 2 rows of ribbons but occasionally 4. However it was a style that I prefer.
I'd say that General Spaatz was highly decorated. Top 2 rows for me in most cases.

OK OK - Jimmy Doolittle liked to wear 4 rows as a 3 star - SEE HERE. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Doolittle

[caphornbuckle]

You have to remember too that members sometimes do not wear all of their decorations.  If a person looks like a Christmas Tree and has "Continued on Next Person" in fine print under their ribbons, they may be highly decorated as well.  The definition of "highly decorated" can go either with the number of decorations or the type of decorations, in my opinion.  Both show that they have contributed a lot to CAP and either have been recognized for it with one or two of the high awards or have achieved their status by working hard and earning their awards in another way through Encampments, Missions, Achievements, etc.

[Major Carrales]

And if we were going to give "weight' to ribbons?  What might weigh more?

[James Shaw]

To me it is the nature and not the number.

For those only involved in one aspect of the program having all that can be earned or awarded for AE would be great and highly decorated.

To others it may be a snapshot and may seem like less than others. But that person is still very valuable to the AE program.

Just depends on how you choose to view them yourself.

[FW]

^I like what  you say, Jim.  For me, "highly decorated"  in CAP is one who is highly regarded by their fellow members.  Someone who is well noted for their fine work; selfless, productive and useful.  Ribbons are nice however, they more are a show of self achievement.  I'm more concerned with what one does to improve CAP (at any level).

[jimmydeanno]

^I like what  you say, Jim.  For me, "highly decorated"  in CAP is one who is highly regarded by their fellow members.  Someone who is well noted for their fine work; selfless, productive and useful.  Ribbons are nice however, they more are a show of self achievement.  I'm more concerned with what one does to improve CAP (at any level).

You certainly make a good point about ribbons not being the only factor to determine one's success.  However, someone who has not been awarded with anything hasn't been decorated.  So, unfortunately, someone who is admired for their actions and has not received any recognition in the form of awards wouldn't meet the criteria, in any sense.

However, you note "what one does to improve CAP."  This criteria is usually distinguished with our commendations and service awards.  Those awards are not awarded for self-achievement, but their contribution to an organization larger than themselves.

[SarDragon]

I think we need to establish the distinction between awards and decorations.

Wikipedia lists the following as US military decorations:

Medal of Honor
Distinguished Service Cross
Air Force Cross
Distinguished Service Medal
Silver Star
Bronze Star
Purple Heart
Navy Cross
Defense Superior Service Medal
Legion of Merit
Distinguished Flying Cross
Soldier's Medal
Navy and Marine Corps Medal
Airman's Medal
Coast Guard Medal

They all reflect personal accomplishments. For CAP, that would extend to most ribbons worn above the GRW, with exceptions in both directions.

Here's the list from 39-3:

Silver Medal of Valor
Bronze Medal of Valor
Distinguished Service Medal
Exceptional Service Award
Meritorious Service Award
Commander's Commendation Award
CAP Achievement Award
Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving
National Commander's Unit Citation Award
Unit Citation Award

The unit citation award is frequently just a bit of fluff for most wearers of a given citation. I know that I made no direct contributions toward the three that I have.

Others not listed above would include Wilson, Garber, Spaatz, Eaker, Earhart, Crossfield, IACE, NCC, NCGC, multiple encampment ribbons (SM), Air SAR, DR, Find, Orientation Pilot, Community Service, Recruiter, and Homeland Security.

All of these require considerable time and effort over and above showing up for meetings every week, and members wearing these fit into the "highly decorated" group.

YMMV.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

It depends on the definition of "highly decorated," and whether or not the CAP officer has prior military service or not.

The two examples given are instructive.

Our National CC, General Courter, does not have prior military service...but the CAP ribbons she has are quite impressive, especially since her top three, the Distinguished Service Medal, Exceptional Service Award and Meritorious Service Award rank just below the S/BMV.

As well, Colonel Smith of Texas does have prior military service and his top three, the Meritorious Service Medal, the Air Force Commendation Medal and Outstanding Unit Commendation with device (I can't tell what it is, due to his lapel) are quite notable.

But one thing I don't think we should get into are the who-is-the-most-highly-decorated in CAP terms viz. military+CAP awards v. CAP awards only.  Who would be more "highly decorated" in CAP, a holder of the SMV or one with prior service who earned an Air Force Achievement Medal?

After all, neither is of more/less value to CAP just based on those awards.

[SarDragon]

FWIW, my discussion has been primarily centered on CAP stuff, having used the military decorations as a starting analogy. No inclusion of military decorations was intended for any definition of "highly decorated".

[James Shaw]

I would have to say CAP only. You can open a whole new can of trouble adding AD or Res type stuff.

You accomplish CAP stuff in CAP not AD.

[James Shaw]

^I like what  you say, Jim.  For me, "highly decorated"  in CAP is one who is highly regarded by their fellow members.  Someone who is well noted for their fine work; selfless, productive and useful.  Ribbons are nice however, they more are a show of self achievement.  I'm more concerned with what one does to improve CAP (at any level).

Agreed whole heartidly. I know members who are great in CP and do nothing else. They are great for the program and are workhorses for CAP. I respect them just as much as I do as someone who participates in all three missions.

[RiverAux]

I think I would have a hard time using this phrase with a straight face.  Yes, I value CAP decorations for what they represent, but the average non-CAP member would seem likely to start thinking of combat valor awards and the like and that just isn't us. 

Of course, since there is no national tracking of most awards there is no way to really judge who is "highly decorated" and who is not based on just about any criteria that you choose.  Interestingly, since CG Aux tracks all of their awards (including CG awards earned by Auxies), you could easily come up with an average number of awards per Auxie that would give you a baseline. 

[Major Carrales]

I began this discussing only CAP awards and decorations (in that Active Duty and Guard Ribbons and the like are of a different rubric altogehter)

Would the award of badges and wings make a difference in what "highly decorated" might be defined?

[SarDragon]

Given the narrow definition of "decoration" that most seem to be using, no.

[James Shaw]

I agree with SarDragon.

You can work towards and earn the Specialty Tracks, Wings, and such. You have things you know you can do to qualify for them.

The items listed earlier are not the same way. They may come as a result of working in those areas but are not a "check off" system.

Silver Medal of Valor
Bronze Medal of Valor
Distinguished Service Medal
Exceptional Service Award
Meritorious Service Award
Commander's Commendation Award
CAP Achievement Award
Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving
National Commander's Unit Citation Award
Unit Citation Award

The only exceptions would be the Spaatz and the Wilson. You do have to go beyond the checklist to some extent to earn one of these. IMHO

[BillB]

You forgot the National Commanders Award which was one step ABOVE the Wilson.

[SarDragon]

You forgot the National Commanders Award which was one step ABOVE the Wilson.

Weren't those two awards equivalent, the Wilson being a replacement for the National Commander's Citation? They are the same ribbon, with the new award being the olde one inverted.

[BillB]

No,  The National Commanders Award also required graduation from the Industrial College of the Armed Forces (Now National Defense University) and also Air War College. Both by corrospondance or resident study.

[Thunder]

In my mind, a lifesaving ribbon would affect my view on the wearer. There is just something noble about that award that the others don't convey. Same with the "valor" series

[4fhoward]

I would consider CAPR 39-3 Section B to determine what a decoration is.  I think it means Unit Citation and above.  If you have someone with a number of these ribbons, with or without attachments, that is "Highly Decorated".

[MSG Mac]

BG Rich Andertson is probably the most decorated CAP Officer. He has every CAP award from the Silver Medal of Valor down.

[Flying Pig]

I would have to say falling in the category of "Highly Decorated" would require a valor award.  And we only have 2 of them.  Really, all the rest are service or education awards for the most part.  I would say you would need a SMoV or BMoV to be in the running for "Highly Decorated". In the military you can have every service medal on the books, if you dont have a valor award or minimum of a Purple Heart, nobody is going to refer to you as "decorated".  At least in the military, Fire, LE, EMS the term "decorated" almost always referring to valor.   Although we are not any of those organizations, and this is just for discussion and not a hard definition, I still think the term as an industry standard is reserved for those with valor awards.

[RiverAux]

I'd agree to that though I'd probably want to pesonally know the circumstances of the CAP valor award before using the phrase even then given the somewhat erratic standards used for issuing some of them in the past. 

[James Shaw]

Personally I don't think that the actual details matter for the Valor Awards. I would only look at the person did or did not receive it.

I have made an impromptu CAP Calculation Table for the Overall program standing and the Decorations standing. This is not a "Official" CAP thing. This is just something I thought of. You can calculate your own and post if wanted or just make a mental note of the number. Just an idea.

[jimmydeanno]

So, if I did you calculations as noted in the table, I think, I'd have 570 total points with 199 in the "decorations" category.  I'm not sure what that means...

[Chappie]

Personally I don't think that the actual details matter for the Valor Awards. I would only look at the person did or did not receive it.

I have made an impromptu CAP Calculation Table for the Overall program standing and the Decorations standing. This is not a "Official" CAP thing. This is just something I thought of. You can calculate your own and post if wanted or just make a mental note of the number. Just an idea.

Okay...according to the calculation table, I would have 475 in the Actual Decorations Category and 345 in the other (programs/activities?) category for a grand total of <<<<drumroll>>>> 820 points.

I would suggest the use of the term "highly accomplished" rather than "highly decorated" for those who have not earned the valor awards....just a thought since we are not AD.

[jimmydeanno]

Why skirt around the terminology?  They are CAP decorations.  Receiving them makes you decorated.  If you have a lot of them, you become "highly decorated."

No sense in making up new terms just because some "RM" guy gets all steamed up because he's drawing parallels that don't exist.

[James Shaw]

I would suggest the use of the term "highly accomplished" rather than "hignly decorated" for those who have not earned the valor awards....just a thought since we are not AD.

I use the term "decorations" because that is the way it is listed in 39-3 and for no other reason. But thanks for the thought.

[Chappie]

I would suggest the use of the term "highly accomplished" rather than "hignly decorated" for those who have not earned the valor awards....just a thought since we are not AD.

I use the term "decorations" because that is the way it is listed in 39-3 and for no other reason. But thanks for the thought.

Not a problem...thanks for the table.  That was fun

[RiverAux]

Personally I don't think that the actual details matter for the Valor Awards. I would only look at the person did or did not receive it.

I have made an impromptu CAP Calculation Table for the Overall program standing and the Decorations standing. This is not a "Official" CAP thing. This is just something I thought of. You can calculate your own and post if wanted or just make a mental note of the number. Just an idea.

Okay, I never want to hear anyone say that I have too much time on my hands ever again.

[arajca]

Personally I don't think that the actual details matter for the Valor Awards. I would only look at the person did or did not receive it.

I have made an impromptu CAP Calculation Table for the Overall program standing and the Decorations standing. This is not a "Official" CAP thing. This is just something I thought of. You can calculate your own and post if wanted or just make a mental note of the number. Just an idea.

Okay, I never want to hear anyone say that I have too much time on my hands ever again.

We'll still say that. You're not the only one who does..

[HGjunkie]

27 points. Do I get an award for least points value? 

[James Shaw]

27 points. Do I get an award for least points value? 

I havent made one for cadets yet. I will have to wait for my lunch hour next week.

[SarDragon]

108/730.

32 years service adds a lot.

[BillB]

Jim it is possible to get both the National Commanders Citation and GRW. There were two GRW programs. One led up to National Commanders Citation which included Air War College, and the 2nd had different requirements for the GRW. It was possible to earn the GRW twice, once under each program.
And nobody seems to know how many Unit Citations there are for Florida Wing including the SER citations.

[James Shaw]

Jim it is possible to get both the National Commanders Citation and GRW. There were two GRW programs. One led up to National Commanders Citation which included Air War College, and the 2nd had different requirements for the GRW. It was possible to earn the GRW twice, once under each program.
And nobody seems to know how many Unit Citations there are for Florida Wing including the SER citations.

If anyone feels compelled to, I have no reason to stop them.

[CAP Producer]

Jim it is possible to get both the National Commanders Citation and GRW. There were two GRW programs. One led up to National Commanders Citation which included Air War College, and the 2nd had different requirements for the GRW. It was possible to earn the GRW twice, once under each program.
And nobody seems to know how many Unit Citations there are for Florida Wing including the SER citations.

No.

As per CAPR 50-17 the Gill Robb Wilson is the highest Professional Development Award that seniors can earn.

The National Commander's Citation is an obsolete award and not supported by current regulations. It has not been part of CAP's Professional Development program for at least 15 years that I know of. In other words current active members cannot earn the National Commander's Citation.

[dogden]

165/531 Not too shabby.

[BillB]

True the National Commanders Citation can not be earned since 1978, but many of us earned it prior to that. Accodrding to NHQ a couple of years ago, there were five members that completed the GRW under the old program, earned the National Commanders Citation and earned the GRW under the current program. As you can se by my signature, I have two GRW.  As to supported by regulation, check CAPR 39-1 on page 92 for wear of the National Commanders Citation.

[Persona non grata]

I know they revoke cadet milestone awards if your are 2 B , does the same apply to senior awards like the Wilson?

[SarDragon]

They can revoke them. I'm not sure it always happens.

[caphornbuckle]

175/745...Am I considered "highly decorated"?

[PHall]

175/745...Am I considered "highly decorated"?

Only if you break 1000 points!

[caphornbuckle]

175/745...Am I considered "highly decorated"?

Only if you break 1000 points!

Dang!  Just when I thought I could get away with it! 

How about adding ES-earned awards to the system like GT, Pilot, & Observer Ratings?  Those decorate the uniform as well.

[Patterson]

Cool calculator but it does not assign any logic to how many points each item grants.  Example "Highest Cadet Award".  If you got your Spaatz, as compared to someone with just the Mitchell you are more highly decorated. 

Thanks for the fun though!!

[James Shaw]

Cool calculator but it does not assign any logic to how many points each item grants.  Example "Highest Cadet Award".  If you got your Spaatz, as compared to someone with just the Mitchell you are more highly decorated. 

Thanks for the fun though!!

I just used the order of precedence as my starting point. The lowest on the list was 1 point and they increased from there up the list. Thos like the leadership were broken down because of the "multiple" possible nature. I tried to make it fairly simple and straight forward since it wasnt anything "formal" just for fun.

I didnt put more points for cadet stuff because when you "crossover" from other programs such as JROTC and such it is not added. If a cadet  earns something in the decoration area then it still applies.

Thats the great thing about the "list". You decide what your awards are and score accordingly. Your points are your to discover.

[DakRadz]

I would love to see one for cadets, sir.

My score- 31. Not bad for 15 months.

P.S. HGjunkie- you have 30 points. Wright Bros., Community Service, NCSA, and encampment.

[HGjunkie]

I would love to see one for cadets, sir.

My score- 31. Not bad for 15 months.

P.S. HGjunkie- you have 30 points. Wright Bros., Community Service, NCSA, and encampment.

Oops. Missed the NCSA.

[Major Carrales]

I hit 47 on the Chart-Excell Meter...that is about right.  I never considered myself to be highy decorated. (I also entered in the most "humble" interpretation of things)

[Al Sayre]

573 is that good?

[James Shaw]

573 is that good?

Looks great to me!

I hit 47 on the Chart-Excell Meter...that is about right.  I never considered myself to be highy decorated. (I also entered in the most "humble" interpretation of things)

Also looks great to me!

[Майор Хаткевич]

I hit 47 on the Chart-Excell Meter...that is about right.  I never considered myself to be highy decorated. (I also entered in the most "humble" interpretation of things)

Somehow that doesn't seem to add up.

With Lvl 1 and basic CP badge + Yeager I get above that...

[Trung Si Ma]

600 points for paying dues for 40 years?  I changed that one to each award (2,5,10,15,20,25,30,35,40=9) but that's still a lot of points.

Also took the Crossfield off as it is double dipping (21 for the AE Master + 19 for the ribbon)

Took off the unit citations because they are collective awards.

Still ended up with 359 / 1606  lots of points for just being around a long time and being reasonably active.

Would like to see Rich Anderson's total

[James Shaw]

Still ended up with 359 / 1606  lots of points for just being around a long time and being reasonably active.

Would like to see Rich Anderson's total

Finally used my own list. 536/1029. Not as good as Trung Si Ma but still respectable.

[ColonelJack]

I got a 699 ... not too shabby.  Not in General Anderson's neighborhood, perhaps, but none too shabby.

Jack

[James Shaw]

As I stated earlier in this thread my definition of highly decorated has nothing to do with the amount of awards, ribbons, or decorations that one has on their uniform. It is the respect that one has from their peers and those they work with. It is obvious by this thread and many others that we perceive the "worth" or effectiveness of an individual by the snapshot we see on their uniform. The awards, ribbons, and decorations are a representation of how our members choose to recognize some of the work we have done. I feel that a lot more members could be brought forward to receive these forms of recognition if our peers chose to do so.

This thought pattern also goes in the other direction. If you feel that someone you work with or work for deserves some form of recognition than you are just as capable of doing that as anyone else in their chain of command. I have put in 120's for people that are not in my chain of command and are attached to units or wings out of state. You just have to make sure you go through the correct people to do so. If you feel that their work needs to be recognized than there is nothing to stop you. I have also put people that were senior to me in for recognition because I did not feel as though they were being properly recognized. Sometimes it takes a little bit more work but if you believe in it enough to start it than follow through with it.

My case and point: I designed the CAP Achievement Medal. This is one of my favorite pieces out of all the ones I have worked on because I get to see fellow members being recognized with it. This is the ultimate form of peer recognition. I get to see hundreds if not thousands of my peers wearing something I designed. My fellow members have earned something that I was part of and even though they may not be aware of that, I have that self satisfaction of being part of their recognition. I received the Silver Medal of Valor in 2007, it was a great feeling to be recognized by my peers for what I had done the previous year.

I also received the Achievement Award from the GAWG Group 4 last year and it was just as great. One of the reasons it was great is because I am no longer attached to GAWG and haven't been for many years. But they still recognized the work I had done in the area that wasn't part of my "normal duties". My peers had brought this full circle for me. I wrote the heraldry, chose the colors, and designed the medal that I get to wear because my peers recognized the work I had done.

I think that some of our members have been spooked in the past about submitting these 120's for those that deserve it because of past events that did not look so good for us. I think we have sit on this concept long enough and should move forward with giving the members what they have worked for. This has to start with members at the Squadron level and work its way up. I do not endorse nominating someone for the sake of nomination but if the work is there, the people are in good standing, than the member deserves to be recognized.

There is no moratorium or limit on the ways that we can recognize the work of our fellow members. The chart is for fun only and by no means should be used to truly measure the worth of your peers. So whether you have 30, 500, 1000, or 2000. I consider anyone who takes time out of there lives and dedicates themselves to others and in the process self improvement to be a "highly decorated CAP member". I choose to remove the officer part because there are members from the newest cadet to the most seasoned Officer that have done and continue to do phenomenal work.

So I salute you my fellow members and consider all "highly decorated" at least that's the way I choose see you.

[Patterson]

^ Way cool!!  Are you presently working on any "other items" we may one day see produced??

Second question......did you receive the very first Achievement Medal?

[James Shaw]

^ Way cool!!  Are you presently working on any "other items" we may one day see produced??

Second question......did you receive the very first Achievement Medal?

1) Yes there are a few going before the Board in November.

2) No ...but it was a "joke" amongst some of my fellow historians that I should receive the award for designing the award. Seriously though, would have been a little weird dont you think. Thanks for the thought.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Jim:

I don't think the reluctance to submit 120's is due to how too many awards would look.  I think it is because so many officers are not good writers and not familiar with the requirements of writing award recommendations.

[ltcmark]

363/1774

[ammotrucker]

I thought this was a fun way of looking at things.
240/498

[PhotogPilot]

300 ornaments, four strings of lights, 25 feet of garland, five boxes of icicles and an angel on top?

[James Shaw]

300 ornaments, four strings of lights, 25 feet of garland, five boxes of icicles and an angel on top?

What!! No ribbon!!

[HGjunkie]

300 ornaments, four strings of lights, 25 feet of garland, five boxes of icicles and an angel on top?

[SarDragon]

300 ornaments, four strings of lights, 25 feet of garland, five boxes of icicles and an angel on top?

What!! No ribbon!!

Garland trumps ribbon. 

[James Shaw]

300 ornaments, four strings of lights, 25 feet of garland, five boxes of icicles and an angel on top?

What!! No ribbon!!

Garland trumps ribbon. 

We are CAP we like ribbon 

[James Shaw]

Here is the Cadet Version. Have fun and enjoy.

[Ned]

^

On the cadet version, are the CP awards cumulative?

IOW, if I had a Spaatz, do I get 30 points for that AND 29 for the Eaker AND 28 for the Earhart (etc.)?

Or just 30 points?

[James Shaw]

^

On the cadet version, are the CP awards cumulative?

IOW, if I had a Spaatz, do I get 30 points for that AND 29 for the Eaker AND 28 for the Earhart (etc.)?

Or just 30 points?

Yes this is the same for cadets as seniors.

[SarDragon]

A comment for the Wright Bros. line - if awarded the Wright Brothers Achievement, mark the Feik line, not the WB line.

[DakRadz]

Cadet:

0/231

[HGjunkie]

0/88

[Майор Хаткевич]

386 on the cadet side...why in the world are we counting each year of membership at 13?
321 if I count Red Service for the 2 year and the 5 year marks.

[James Shaw]

Thats just the way the numbers lined up. Did the same thing with the senior side. Thats is why there are split numbers representing Decorations and then Overall program. Keeps the balance a little more even.