small arms expert marksmanship ribbon

[Eclipse]

The other thing being missed is that the time most cadets spend on a range, live or otherwise, during an encampment, generally does not meet the total requirements for a respective marksmanship award.

One session with a good grouping does not always a "Marksman" make - in the Navy its a whole-day process that includes classes, live fire, and several SAMT sessions (or so I have been told).

[notaNCO forever]

At Air Force BMT it's a all day thing you need 43 out of 50 shots and ten of those shots are with a gas mask on

[Short Field]

Back in the day, during AF BMT you had to shoot a 100 out of 100 to qualify for the SAEMR.  IIRC, once you got to your first assignment and went to qualify again, you had different rules for qualifying.   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I remember a couple of CAP members who had this ribbon and say they qualified for it at an ANG unit whose wing king signed off on it...but this has been some years ago.

Remember, too, that CAP members were awarded Air Medals in WWII but we aren't eligible for them now...

[flyboy53]

Remember, too, that CAP members were awarded Air Medals in WWII but we aren't eligible for them now...

Says who? Air Force eligibility criteria still reflects "civilians" for things like Air Medals. Check it out yourself by looking at the AFPC Fact Sheet on the Medal. Instead of 'puttsying' around with things like a Homeland Security-related mission ribbon, the folks at NHQ should be looking to see what it takes to get the medal awarded again.

Then they should see what would qualify CAP personnel for some other medals when we are functioning as the "Auxiliary" during Air Force-assigned missions....at the very least, why not award CAP personnel Air Force Civilian awards and decorations.

[RiverAux]

Says who?

The CAP awards regulation which says you can't wear a military award unless you earned it while part of the military.  On the other hand, the uniform regulation says you could wear it since it was awarded by competent military authority. 

[SPD6696]

I think what's being missed here is the "indoor simulation" range.  Sounds like a FATS machine to me.  There is no live fire involved, therefore, no ribbon, even for regular AF personnel.  However, that's just my .02. 

FWIW, I have qualified as expert on rifle and pistol (1911) in the Marines, expert rifle in the Army, and expert with rifle, carbine (M4), pistol (actually, 2, the M9 and M11) and MP5K-PDW.  Other quals include shotgun, M60, M249, M203, AT4, LAAW, maybe some other stuff.   Not to mention 19 years of assorted weapons quals as a civvie cop.  All required live fire.  I've also spent a lot of time on FATS simulators, too.  In my experience, a qual course requires live fire.

[flyboy53]

Says who?

The CAP awards regulation which says you can't wear a military award unless you earned it while part of the military.  On the other hand, the uniform regulation says you could wear it since it was awarded by competent military authority.

You are reading too much into that statement. It was intended only for former military personnel in terms of the awards and decorations they earned while in military service...especially in cases of another post in CAP Talk related to stolen valor.

If a medal was awarded by "competent (American) military authority," it means that that "authority" recognizes the merit calling for the award...to a civilian or military individual.

[RiverAux]

Actually, I'm not reading anything into anything.  There is a clear conflict in the text of two different CAP regulations relating to this issue.  One clearly says that you had to have been in the service to wear any military award on your CAP uniform while the other has no such prior service restriction and as written would allow civilians who have earned military awards (which is certainly allowable under DoD and service regulations for some awards) to wear them on a CAP uniform. 

Personally, I think it is absurd that CAP would want to discriminate against civilians who have earned military awards and have the proper documentation to back it up.  But, that is what one CAP reg says.

[lordmonar]

Says who?

The CAP awards regulation which says you can't wear a military award unless you earned it while part of the military.  On the other hand, the uniform regulation says you could wear it since it was awarded by competent military authority.

So by that regulation....all the sub chasers need to take off their Air Medals.

[Hawk200]

Says who?

The CAP awards regulation which says you can't wear a military award unless you earned it while part of the military.  On the other hand, the uniform regulation says you could wear it since it was awarded by competent military authority.

So by that regulation....all the sub chasers need to take off their Air Medals.

Sub chasers weren't awarded their medals under current rules.

[SarDragon]

Says who?

The CAP awards regulation which says you can't wear a military award unless you earned it while part of the military.  On the other hand, the uniform regulation says you could wear it since it was awarded by competent military authority.

So by that regulation....all the sub chasers need to take off their Air Medals.

As a military medal, awarded by competent authority, it would be worn as such, and be higher in precedence than any CAP award.

a. The CAP decorations, ribbons, and badges described herein and wartime service ribbons awarded during the period February 1942-July 1945 may be worn on the CAP uniform in accordance with CAPM 39-1, Civil Air Patrol Uniform Manual.

That pretty well covers the Air Medal, and any other wartime awards.

Y'all are trying way too hard to pick fly poop outta pepper here.

[CAPOfficer]

There are only "three" pieces of information required in determining if a Civil Air Patrol Cadet is eligible (entitled) to wear the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon (SAEMR); first, who has the "authority" to award the ribbon; second, what are the award requirements; and third, can a CAP Cadet meet (fulfill) those requirements.

The Authority; AFI36-2226, 24 February 2009, Combat Arms Program tells us in paragraph 5.20.3, "AFI36-2803, Individual and Unit Awards and Decorations, prescribes authority for the award of this ribbon."

The Awarding Authority (AFI36-2803) lists the requirements as follows; awarded "to Air Force personnel, including Reservists who, after 1 January 1963, qualify as "expert" with either the M16 rifle or issue handgun on the Air Force qualification course or the appropriate orientation course prescribed in AFIs, or who satisfactorily complete the Combat Rifle Program. (See note 7.)"

"Note 7.  Award ribbon only once no matter how many times an individual scores "expert."  Add bronze service star to the ribbon for those personnel who, after 22 June 1972, meet the award criteria with both the M16 rifle and issue handgun.  Add only one star regardless of the number of times a person qualifies with both weapons.  Use AF Form 522, USAF Ground Weapons Training Data or letter from the Small Arms Marksmanship Monitor as the source document for this award."

Consequently, from these two source documents, we can conclude that an individual must be on extended active duty (EAD) or a member of the Air Force Reserve to qualify for the award of the SAEMR.  Therefore, unless a Cadet is serving on EAD or in the Air Force Reserve, it is not possible to meet the prerequisites for award.

I know some will disagree by stating we are the official Air Force Auxiliary and fall under the larger umbrella of the Air Force; however, if you noticed in the AFI how the Air Force had to explicitly mention "Reservists" but not it's auxiliary, this would not be questioned.

[lordmonar]

Says who?

The CAP awards regulation which says you can't wear a military award unless you earned it while part of the military.  On the other hand, the uniform regulation says you could wear it since it was awarded by competent military authority.

So by that regulation....all the sub chasers need to take off their Air Medals.

Sub chasers weren't awarded their medals under current rules.

OH!  YOU DON'T want to use that logic! 

[lordmonar]

Says who?

The CAP awards regulation which says you can't wear a military award unless you earned it while part of the military.  On the other hand, the uniform regulation says you could wear it since it was awarded by competent military authority.

So by that regulation....all the sub chasers need to take off their Air Medals.

As a military medal, awarded by competent authority, it would be worn as such, and be higher in precedence than any CAP award.

a. The CAP decorations, ribbons, and badges described herein and wartime service ribbons awarded during the period February 1942-July 1945 may be worn on the CAP uniform in accordance with CAPM 39-1, Civil Air Patrol Uniform Manual.

That pretty well covers the Air Medal, and any other wartime awards.

Y'all are trying way too hard to pick fly poop outta pepper here.

I missed that one....thanks Dave...you ruined my whole philosophical stand point.

Okay......there is no gray area  in the regs.  You must be IN the military when you earn the award for you to be able to wear it later in CAP.  This does not apply to our sub chasers due to para 3.a.

[brasda91]

Thank you for your contibutions.  I agree that you have to be in the AF or earned it while in.  I think part of the problem is some of the newer members have not been around long enough to understand the intent of the reg's and manuals.

I advised the Cadet he couldn't wear it, until he earns it on active duty! 

[lordmonar]

Well another problem is that people AD and CAP just don't know their own regulations.

An AD CATMs instructor and CAP member tells a cadet you can wear it.....well that is pretty strong competent authority to go ahead and wear it.

The SM in question was wrong on two parts (If I read the regulations and AFIs correctly).

1)  The USAF can't award it to non USAF personnel.
2)  Even if awarded CAP regulations don't allow you to wear it anyways.

The only question is are we in fact reading the regulations and AFIs correctly.

The wording is slippery enough that the official interpretation of them would allow room if the appropriate authorities wanted to do so.

For example.....the CATM AFI allows ROTC and USAFA cadets to wear it.....policy....may allow for the USAF to extend that definition to include CAP and JROTC cadets as well.  By extention the awards and decorations AFI may be stretched enough to include JROTC and CAP personnel in their definition of "Air Force Personnel, including reservists" because they already allow it for ROTC and USAFA cadets (who are in some other gray area between "real" Air Force Personnel and straight up civilians).

As I said before......I agree with your interpretation of the regs....it is NOT allowed unless you were a blue suit wearing Air force member (ANG, RES, AD, ROTC or USAFA Cadet).  However, I can also see where there is a lot of confusion out there as well.

[Eclipse]

We also never determined if the cadet actually complete the full requirements or this was a typical encampment "good grouping" with uncharged laser guns.

[lordmonar]

We also never determined if the cadet actually complete the full requirements or this was a typical encampment "good grouping" with uncharged laser guns.

Not going to go there....let's assume for the sake of argument we are talking about someone who completed the live fire AFQT or the live fire orientation courses as the AFI clearly states that simulated weapons systems do not count for either qualification or the SAEMR.

[Hawk200]

We also never determined if the cadet actually complete the full requirements or this was a typical encampment "good grouping" with uncharged laser guns.

Not going to go there....let's assume for the sake of argument we are talking about someone who completed the live fire AFQT or the live fire orientation courses as the AFI clearly states that simulated weapons systems do not count for either qualification or the SAEMR.

Information provided in the original post stated that the cadet fired on a simulator. It's relevant. Either way, the cadet doesn't get the ribbon, and the senior that told him he could wear it needs to brush up on his pubs.