small arms expert marksmanship ribbon

[brasda91]

So my Cadets are back from their summer encampment.  While they were there, they all shot on the indoor simulation range.  One of my Cadets was the only Cadet to score "Expert" on the M-16/M-4.  He was told by a Senior Member, who is also a Small Arms instructor in the Army, that he can now wear the small arms expert marksmanship ribbon on his Blues.  All the cadet has to do, is bring in the score card that the instructor signed and put it in his file and all is well.

I disagree.  I explained that is an award for those members that earned the award while in the military.  He countered with they were awarded in writing by competent military authority due to the fact that the instructor signed the card.  I told him that to me were awarded in writing by competent military authority meant it is listed on his DD 214, of which he doesn't have one.

Have I been interpeting the regs wrong for the last 17 years, that if a Cadet scores Expert on a simulation range, they can wear the ribbon?

[EMT-83]

You've got it right. Where do people come up with this stuff?

[MIKE]

It used to be in the AFI... for handgun only.  It was removed in the last revision. 

Edited to add:  Note that this cite is no longer valid.  Information only.

2.3. Handgun Orientation Training. Handgun orientation training may be conducted for United States
Air Force Academy (USAFA) Cadets, Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) officer accessions, and
possibly Civil Air Patrol (CAP) personnel. This training consists of classroom instruction in general firearms
safety, basic operation, and marksmanship fundamentals. After completion of classroom training,
students participate in a live-fire session by completing phase II (evaluation) of the handgun Air Force
Qualification Course (AFQC). Trainees earn the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon (SAEMR) if
they achieve an expert score. This program does not qualify an individual for armed duty. If qualification
is required, personnel must meet the full objectives and requirements in AFMAN 36-2227 for the handgun
AFQC training program.

[PHall]

It used to be in the AFI... for handgun only.  It was removed in the last revision. 

Edited to add:  Note that this cite is no longer valid.  Information only.

2.3. Handgun Orientation Training. Handgun orientation training may be conducted for United States
Air Force Academy (USAFA) Cadets, Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) officer accessions, and
possibly Civil Air Patrol (CAP) personnel. This training consists of classroom instruction in general firearms
safety, basic operation, and marksmanship fundamentals. After completion of classroom training,
students participate in a live-fire session by completing phase II (evaluation) of the handgun Air Force
Qualification Course (AFQC). Trainees earn the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon (SAEMR) if
they achieve an expert score. This program does not qualify an individual for armed duty. If qualification
is required, personnel must meet the full objectives and requirements in AFMAN 36-2227 for the handgun
AFQC training program.

The current version of AFI 36-2226 deleted all mention of Civil Air Patrol. Handgun orientation is para 5.7. Rifle orientation is para 5.8.

[Hawk200]

He countered with they were awarded in writing by competent military authority due to the fact that the instructor signed the card.

Signing the card only attests to the score. It does not in any way award a ribbon.

[Flying Pig]

Thats right up there with Pilot wings for completeing all of your cadet O-Rides.

[RVT]

So my Cadets are back from their summer encampment.  While they were there, they all shot on the indoor simulation range.  One of my Cadets was the only Cadet to score "Expert" on the M-16/M-4.  He was told by a Senior Member, who is also a Small Arms instructor in the Army, that he can now wear the small arms expert marksmanship ribbon on his Blues.  All the cadet has to do, is bring in the score card that the instructor signed and put it in his file and all is well.

I got the SAEMR as a cadet in 1975 - but I fired an actual M16 to get it, not a simulation.  And in 1975 the USAF would award the ribbon to cadets, in writing.

Later at Mather AFB as an active duty 2LT I re-qualified with both M16 and .38 revolver (yes, a revolver) so I wear the ribbon with star.

I would just consider the paperwork side of it.  Did they or did they not award the ribbon in writing.  My guess would be for a simulation the answer would probably be no.

[RiverAux]

He countered with they were awarded in writing by competent military authority due to the fact that the instructor signed the card.  I told him that to me were awarded in writing by competent military authority meant it is listed on his DD 214, of which he doesn't have one.

I might buy that argument if the instructor was the final approving authority for that award for military members.  If the only thing in writing authorizing the award was that score card, I'd be surprised.  I assume that someone in that person's chain of command actually approves it BASED on the score card.  Just like I'm sure that someone signs off on the completion of other prerequisites for military qualification badges. 

[flyboy53]

The last time I scored expert on the M-16, the CATM instructor's signature on the score card was the only thing necessary for military personnel to update my records to show the award. If I remember correctly, the score card even had a box to check showing the award and a separate card with a bull's eye.

Years ago, CAP members attending training at what was then the 910th Airlift Group at Youngstown Air Reserve Base were allowed to go to the range and fire M-16s. A handful of the cadets and senior members scored expert and were awarded the ribbons without question. I remember because I was base liaison at the time. There was never a debate in the Ohio Wing whether they were entitled to wear the ribbon.

In a related matter, my wife wears an AFOUA on her CAP uniform because she was formally attached to an Air Force Reserve Wing during the award period and was authorized by the wing commander, who also formally recommended her (signed the form) for a Commander's Commendation Award.

Therefore, instead of debating the issue in this forum, the question needs to be bumped up the chain of command to the state director or Air Force Liasion and if necessary, Mrs. Parker at NHQ.

[lordmonar]

He countered with they were awarded in writing by competent military authority due to the fact that the instructor signed the card.

Signing the card only attests to the score. It does not in any way award a ribbon.

In the USAF...you take the card to the MPF (Military Personnel Flight) and give it to the awards people who update the ribbon in the computer.....for USAF perposes...the signed card awards the ribbon.

Having said that....it is a very gray area in the regulations. 

I would say NO it is not authorised for wear......I would ask National for their call.

[lordmonar]

Thats right up there with Pilot wings for completeing all of your cadet O-Rides.

No....if the cadet (or SM) in question successfully completed the AF Small Arms Qualification Course with an expert rating....then they in fact earned it.

If however....they did some sort of abbreviated course and just gave the ribbon for the top shooter...then you would be correct.

[JC004]

*sigh*  indoor simulation.  When I was a cadet it was live ammunition outside in the heat and sun!  We marched to the range, too - up hill - BOTH WAYS!   

[Hawk200]

...the signed card awards the ribbon.

No, it serves as proof for award of the ribbon. There's an important distinction. If it was the awarding authority, all you'd have to do is file the card.

[MIKE]

You may not wear (CAPM 39-1 5-4.) that which you may not be awarded (CAPR 39-3 SECTION A 3. b.). 

[lordmonar]

...the signed card awards the ribbon.

No, it serves as proof for award of the ribbon. There's an important distinction. If it was the awarding authority, all you'd have to do is file the card.

Which is exactly what they did before they had the computer system.

I still had my first Expert AFF 522 (.38) in my UPRG when I retired.  My second one was entered into the system when I qualed expert on the M-16 but I kept the card.

[NCRblues]

CAPR 39-3 SECTION A 3.b." Decorations, ribbons, and badges authorized for wear on the U.S. Air Force uniform may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority to a member for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies."

Cadets that fire at encampments or during CAP events do not qualify at all to have that ribbon.

[lordmonar]

Well there are two sides to this problem.

1)  Can the USAF award this ribbon to non USAF members.
2)  What is the actual intent to section A 3.b?

On the first issue.....it is kind of gray. 

AFI36-2226 only says "personnel" with out stating if they are air force, army, or what ever...but defers to 36-2803.

AFI 36-2803 specifies "Air Force Personnel"...which on the surface would exclude CAP....but elsewhere it does include USAFA and ROTC cadets which again fall into a middle ground which "COULD" hold open the door for CAP personnel.

On the CAP side of things:

By one read of section A 3.b one could argue that the air medals awarded to the sub chasers during WWII would not be authorised for wear by CAP members.

So....is the INTENT of the regulation to make sure that you had to show competent authority that you earned them.....or that they did not want the services to award CAP members medals?

For the OP......to earn the ribbon one must qualify expert on the USAF live fire AFQT or the live fire Small Arms/Rifle Orientation course....the VATS system does not count.

And for Hawk

5.20.2. The AF Form 522 is the basis for the SAEMR award. The individual awarded the SAEMR is responsible for bringing the AF Form 522 to the MPE Awards and Decorations section. The MPE enters the award on the individuals automated personnel record.

The signed card is the authority to wear the ribbon.

[RiverAux]

You may not wear (CAPM 39-1 5-4.) that which you may not be awarded (CAPR 39-3 SECTION A 3. b.).

CAP doesn't have any say over what awards other organizations may give anyone.  It can certainly restrict what can be worn on a CAP uniform though and there is a conflict between the uniform reg and the awards reg on this issue.  I assert that the uniform reg is the ultimate authority over what is worn.

But, that seems to be a moot point in this case, since the military regulation itself doesn't allow for giving this award to CAP members. 

[NCRblues]

wait wait wait......

39-3 clearly states that it must be awarded for "service performed IN any branch...."

So no, cadets (even if firing the AFQT) are not "performing" it IN the United States Air Force.....

They were nice enough to allow cadets to fire something not everyone gets to....take some pictures...smile...tell all your friends...but put on expert marksmen as a cadet?? Give me break.....

[lordmonar]

wait wait wait......

39-3 clearly states that it must be awarded for "service performed IN any branch...."

So no, cadets (even if firing the AFQT) are not "performing" it IN the United States Air Force.....

They were nice enough to allow cadets to fire something not everyone gets to....take some pictures...smile...tell all your friends...but put on expert marksmen as a cadet?? Give me break.....

So.....you going to tell the sub chasers to take off their Air Medals?

Those were awarded to CAP members for service TO the Army Air Forces while IN the Civil Air Patrol.

So....we have a precedent....any takers?

For the record.....I don't think the USAF CAN award the SAEMR to CAP members...and if they could I would not encourage CAP to allow for it either.....but as a philosophical discussion....it must be considered within the larger scope of thing....and that requires us to examine how the WWII service CAP members were awarded their medals and if they can wear them in light of today's regulations.