A Confirmation of Sorts

[Rotorhead]

Hey Guys
I have heard that one is not allowed to roll their BDU sleeves until after memorial day, Now I have been living by this rule since I was a wee cadet, but this latest heat wave up here in NJ, and the lost of my Georgian ability to reflect heat lol; has me wanting to make sure I'm not following a myth.

Ever see a reg that said that?

[Stonewall]

sleeves down probably do protect you from the elements and its also a good way to trap plenty of heat Want your members dropping like flies when they can't roll up/remove their blouse?

Hmmm... as a 20+ year CAP guy with all of that time on ground teams, a lot of that time in Florida (hot, humid), 10 years as an Infantryman and a handful of years in Air Force Security Forces; not to mention EMT and Combat Lifesaver.  I've never experienced someone, anyone, dropping out from heat exaustion based on their sleeves being down.  There are other underlying issues if someone drops out. 

Sleeves rolled up is a garrison/REMF thing.  It's a Hollywood thing that makes zero sense.

[shorning]

It makes a big difference whether it's humid or not.  In a dry environment, like the Middle East, it's better to be covered.  In a humid environment, like the CAP Middle East Region, sleeves up allows for better evaporation and better cooling.

Your argument fails in that the entire Middle East isn't "dry".  Bahrain and many of the other Gulf countries get very humid.  I remember being in Bahrain and it being 124°F and 100% humidity. 

[davedove]

It makes a big difference whether it's humid or not.  In a dry environment, like the Middle East, it's better to be covered.  In a humid environment, like the CAP Middle East Region, sleeves up allows for better evaporation and better cooling.

Your argument fails in that the entire Middle East isn't "dry".  Bahrain and many of the other Gulf countries get very humid.  I remember being in Bahrain and it being 124°F and 100% humidity.

:oIn that case, it wouldn't matter to me whether my sleeves were up or down.  I would be inside in the air conditioning.

Of course my statement was pretty general about the Middle East.  I was more concerned about arid vs. humid, not the particular region.  And of course, in an operational environment, especially the military, there are MANY other concerns besides the weather.

My main arguments come from personal experience.  In a hot humid environment, I tend to be cooler with sleeves up.  Now, that may be completely in my mind, or it could be that I feel less sweat trickling down my arms with the sleeves up.

[BillB]

When the CAP uniform was 505 and 1505s there was a May-Oct rule. The long sleeve shirt was worn Oct to May with a tie. The short sleeve shirt was work May-Oct, no tie (you couldn't wer a tie anyway, no top button. When the blues came in the rule was dropped.
Also Mess Dress came in two styles, one for winter and one for summer. Only difference was color of the jacket, one white, one black

[MSgt Van]

Just do me a favor - when wearing them rolled up, cuff will touch or come within 1 inch of forearms when arm
is bent at a 90-degree angle.

Rolling them up to your darn armpit isn't acceptable.

[Hawk200]

Just do me a favor - when wearing them rolled up, cuff will touch or come within 1 inch of forearms when arm
is bent at a 90-degree angle.

Rolling them up to your darn armpit isn't acceptable.

+1.

I hate that. It looks stupid. So does the tight wrap around the arm that many people do too (which really doesn't make much sense either, clothing should be loose to allow heat to vent).

[Spike]

This surely falls as top priority in most Squadrons right?!?!?!

Wear the sleeves down, wear them up....not really a mission factor. 

I also like all the MD's that came out of the woodwork on health related factors for sleeves up or down.  To set the record straight, wearing your sleeves down will (WILL) actually keep you cooler.  It is factual and written in medical and DoD journals.  A simple Google on the subject provides tons of results.  Thus, I will let everyone do their own research. 

[Smithsonia]

^^^^^^
Spike; I have heard and read the same. I just can't find anyone in a Colorado winter willing to wear sleeves-rolled-up for full testing. In my case I can't actually tell the difference. I think this should go to Myth-Busters.

[Dragon 3-2]

Thanks Guys

Sq/CC and DCC said till memorial day anyway so guess I'll be boiling for a bit.

[tdepp]

This surely falls as top priority in most Squadrons right?!?!?!

Wear the sleeves down, wear them up....not really a mission factor. 

I also like all the MD's that came out of the woodwork on health related factors for sleeves up or down.  To set the record straight, wearing your sleeves down will (WILL) actually keep you cooler.  It is factual and written in medical and DoD journals.  A simple Google on the subject provides tons of results.  Thus, I will let everyone do their own research.

In support of Dr. Spike and sleeves down:

From WikiHow: http://www.wikihow.com/Cool-Yourself-Without-Air-Conditioning
"Cover Up: Covering up may actually keep your cooler, especially if the heat is low in humidity. In the scorching temperatures of the Middle Eastern deserts, traditional cultures wear clothing covering from head to toe. By protecting your skin from the sun beating down, you'll also shade your skin. Be sure your clothing is natural fabrics, and loose."

From Survivalx: http://survivalx.com/regional-survival/desert-clothing-and-health.html
"Do not strip off your clothes. Apart from the risk of severe sunburn, an uncovered body will lose sweat through evaporation requiring even more to cool it- but keep the covering as loose as possible so that there is a layer of insulating air. Sweating will then cool you more efficiently."

From the University of Alberta: http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://safety.eas.ualberta.ca/forms/heatstress_WCB.pdf
"A thin layer of air is always trapped next to the skin. When the air temperature is greater than the skin temperature (skin temperature is generally about 35°C), this trapped layer of air protects the skin from direct contact with the hotter air in the environment. Air movement from fans or wind at these high temperatures can strip away this protective layer of air and cause the body to be heated by the warmer air. This is known as convective heating. (This is basically how convection ovens work to cook food faster.) Wearing a light layer of loose-fitting clothing helps to maintain this protective layer of air. This is why in hot desert climates people cover themselves in clothing from head to toe."

And Dr. Epp would agree.  As a wan youth, I was a lifeguard and wore nothing more than a Speedo and a smile.  And I sat outside poolside.  A lot.  In the heat.  In the sun. And I was always hot.

Then when I was older, I started wearing long sleeve shirts and pants while in the sticks on hot summer days to keep the poison ivy, ticks, and snakes at bay.  But lo and behold, I was also cooler, particularly when I wore a big dumb floppy hat.  If on the soccer pitch refereeing, I dress in short sleeves and shorts (and a ball cap), but if hiking, camping, or doing chores outside the house on a hot day, I'm typically covered--and cooler and less sunburned.

So, I'll be wearing my BDU sleeves down in the heat unless otherwise ordered.

[AirAux]

In reality, the main reason to wear the sleeves down is for chemical attacks.  For this reason, ALL CAP personnel on ANY CAP mission  should wear themselves covered to the wrist.  In the old days, WIWAC, we wore the khaki sleeves down to protect us from radiation burns while doing radiological monitoring.  Since we have won that war (at least our monitoring equipment has all rusted out) we no longer have to worry about excess radiation.  Now we must be prepared for chemical attack.  There will not be time to roll down your sleeves while you are trying to put on your mask and NBC or is it NCB gear during an attack.  Time is of the essence..  Your squadron did issue you your chemical gear didn't they??  Or did you order it from Ol' Sarge's??  Make sure you got the latest issue as the chemical agents have been made smaller and more insidious since the original gear was issued..  Carry on..

[Rotorhead]

Thanks Guys

Sq/CC and DCC said till memorial day anyway so guess I'll be boiling for a bit.

For the record, I think this is just dumb.

Some people in this organization just seem to live to make up new rules.

[heliodoc]

^^^^

AGREEEEEEEED!!

[Stonewall]

For the record I think it looks stupid when a formation has cadets with sleeves up and down.  It's a uniformity thing.  To keep everyone uniform (the same).  So if the squadron commander wants everyone's sleeves down, so be it.  If you don't like it, keep your squadron's sleeves up.

[heliodoc]

Agreed Stonewall..

Some in CAP have forgot the basics of uniformity or completely passed it up in all the publications CAP has written or plagarized from the RM.

Time for a time out on "new" CAP regulations OR how about a COMPLETE set of COHERENT regulations and if need, some REAL trainers in CAP about uniform wear?  I mean REAL trainers not some hair brained individuals that got it from hearing from someone else who heard it from someone else who heard it from someone else who heard it from some one else........

But this is CAPTalk.......where reading regulations close enough isn't really required.. forcing folks to come on CT to get the 411 from someone else who heard from someone else who heard it from some one else who heard it from some one else who heard it from someone else who heard it from some one else.

[tdepp]

Agreed Stonewall..

Some in CAP have forgot the basics of uniformity or completely passed it up in all the publications CAP has written or plagarized from the RM.

Time for a time out on "new" CAP regulations OR how about a COMPLETE set of COHERENT regulations and if need, some REAL trainers in CAP about uniform wear?  I mean REAL trainers not some hair brained individuals that got it from hearing from someone else who heard it from someone else who heard it from someone else who heard it from some one else........

But this is CAPTalk.......where reading regulations close enough isn't really required.. forcing folks to come on CT to get the 411 from someone else who heard from someone else who heard it from some one else who heard it from some one else who heard it from someone else who heard it from some one else.

When you look at a typical Israeli IDF soldier, they aren't exactly the picture of military prim and properness.  Their uniforms are wrinkled, their boots are unshined--and they seldom lose a war.  I'm not saying we shouldn't look good in our uniforms or comply with the regulations in their wear.  But the Israelis have apparently made the decision that it's better to have well trained troops rather than troops that stepped off of a drill team or color guard. 

I've also seen Syrian soldiers who also don't look like very good soldiers because their uniforms are dumpy, and, well, from what I've heard from even my Lebanese and Syrian friends, they're not the greatest soldiers in the world.  Perhaps in their case, bad uniforms and the wear thereof means bad soldiers.  But the Israeli soldiers I've seen don't look much better than the Syrians they stare at across the Golan Heights and they are a butt kicking machine. 

I'd rather have a squadron of CAP members who know how to find lost people, relate to cadets, and educate the public about aviation and aerospace and not have perfect uniforms rather than the other way around. Yes, we should have both.  But life is seldom so clear cut or perfect.  Form needs to follow function, not the other way around, IMHO.

And, as I've noted countless times before we are the Civil AIR Patrol, not the Civil UNIFORM Patrol.  I suppose I could make an argument that we are the Civil VANGUARD STINKS Patrol. 

[shorning]

I suppose I could make an argument that we are the Civil VANGUARD STINKS Patrol.

Is that productive?  Do you feel better about yourself?

I'm not an appologist for Vanguard, but good grief...

[heliodoc]

Forgot about those points, tdepp!

But CAP's ties to the AF and some people's wants and needs of being identical to their parent mentor are so crazy at times because of their wanting to be corporate and military at the same time.....

Time for some serious looking at CAP and its training, too.  But in CAP, there is some belief we are active duty or something and have to have the sharpest lookin volunteer uniforms before we can even PRACTICE the trade we are in.

Uniforms search and locate people...better trained people in CAP??  There are some units that do well without all the worries of uniforms displayed here on CT!!!

[tdepp]

I suppose I could make an argument that we are the Civil VANGUARD STINKS Patrol.

Is that productive?  Do you feel better about yourself?

I'm not an appologist for Vanguard, but good grief...

Shorn:

I actually am a Vanguard apologist.  I think they provide reasonably good service and I think the royalties they pay us is just good business.  I'm happy with their products and service.  I was trying to make a joke because so many CTers seem to hate Vanguard.  As usual, humor and sarcasm doesn't translate well in cold, hard digital print, even with the use of the smiley-thingie after it.