A Confirmation of Sorts

[Dragon 3-2]

Hey Guys
I have heard that one is not allowed to roll their BDU sleeves until after memorial day, Now I have been living by this rule since I was a wee cadet, but this latest heat wave up here in NJ, and the lost of my Georgian ability to reflect heat lol; has me wanting to make sure I'm not following a myth.

[lordmonar]

Unless there is specific local guidance (i.e. wing supplement or squadron policy written or unwritten) then there is no specific date for sleeves up/down or short/long sleves on blues.

Back in the day there used to be a Oct-May rule but it no longer is set in stone....it is up to local commanders.

[Spike]

Wow....I love uniform "rules" that are neither based in fact or are "because we always did that way".  If something seems wrong with a uniform rule, there is the option to ask "why".  If the response is "just because".....time to get rid of that uniform rule.   

[shorning]

Back in the day there used to be a Oct-May rule but it no longer is set in stone....it is up to local commanders.

I don't recall CAP ever having a rule like that. 

[AirAux]

Seems to me that the local commander has the call on that..  Only makes sense, so I may be totally wrong..  But it works for us..

[lordmonar]

Back in the day there used to be a Oct-May rule but it no longer is set in stone....it is up to local commanders.

I don't recall CAP ever having a rule like that.

Caught me....   I was talking USAF rules....which is where this stupid myth has floated into CAP uniform history.

AFAIK the Navy is the only service with this old summer/winter rule still in force....and that is because they actually have summer and winter uniforms.

[mynetdude]

Back in the day there used to be a Oct-May rule but it no longer is set in stone....it is up to local commanders.

I don't recall CAP ever having a rule like that.

Caught me....   I was talking USAF rules....which is where this stupid myth has floated into CAP uniform history.

AFAIK the Navy is the only service with this old summer/winter rule still in force....and that is because they actually have summer and winter uniforms.

I believe the coast guard also has winter/summer clothing too (and so does the USCGAux). Technically so do we, there is summer weight and winter weight BDUs but they look the same.  We don't have a winter version of the AF style service blues.

[MIKE]

I believe the coast guard also has winter/summer clothing too (and so does the USCGAux).

Only a few of the uniforms are seasonal... Mostly the whites, white jacket and the Winter Blue Shirt.  Tropical Blue gets worn year round and there is no set rule for sleeve rolling of the ODU.

[lordmonar]

I believe the coast guard also has winter/summer clothing too (and so does the USCGAux). Technically so do we, there is summer weight and winter weight BDUs but they look the same.  We don't have a winter version of the AF style service blues.

Yes...but the USAF never said that you HAD to wear winter weights in the winter and summer weights in the summer.

[a2capt]

For us it's been by the activity, and declaration with the UOD for the event.  Rolled up always looked neater, for CAP anyway, because they seem to spend the majority of the time in the "up" position, to when they get pulled down it looks like you are a flexible dryer hose.

[DC]

I have always seen that left that up to the commander of an individual event or meeting. If it's cold, sleeves down, if it's hot, sleeves up. Here in FL we would probably only wear them down for 2-3 months out of the year anyway, and even then it wouldn't be constantly necessary.

[mynetdude]

I have been to meetings and activities where they have said to remove the blouse instead of rolling the sleeves.

[RiverAux]

What idiot would try to put a date on something like this?  If its hot, its hot...

[NBB0058]

And if it's not, it's not..Yippee, we agree..

[Stonewall]

In the early 90s, and from what I understand, for years prior, National Capital Wing followed the Military District of Washington (MDW) standard, which was something like Oct 15th to May 15th, sleeves down.  Later in my career, it was a career field (MOS) standard that all Infantry types would keep their sleeves down, which I agree with.

As a squadron commander I dictated when sleeves were up and down.  Generally it was seasonal.  I think it's rediculous for people to be different and I never thought rolled sleeves was a good idea.  It defeats the every aspect of the utility uniform.

Dumbest thing I ever saw was a senior member show up to an air show with sleeves rolled up and a boonie hat rolled "Aussie Style".

Pros for sleeves down
1.  Sun protection
2.  Better air flow
3.  Camouflage (obviously not relevant in CAP)
4.  Protection for the elements, especially in the field.

[mynetdude]

In the early 90s, and from what I understand, for years prior, National Capital Wing followed the Military District of Washington (MDW) standard, which was something like Oct 15th to May 15th, sleeves down.  Later in my career, it was a career field (MOS) standard that all Infantry types would keep their sleeves down, which I agree with.

As a squadron commander I dictated when sleeves were up and down.  Generally it was seasonal.  I think it's rediculous for people to be different and I never thought rolled sleeves was a good idea.  It defeats the every aspect of the utility uniform.

Dumbest thing I ever saw was a senior member show up to an air show with sleeves rolled up and a boonie hat rolled "Aussie Style".

Pros for sleeves down
1.  Sun protection
2.  Better air flow
3.  Camouflage (obviously not relevant in CAP)
4.  Protection for the elements, especially in the field.

sleeves down probably do protect you from the elements and its also a good way to trap plenty of heat Want your members dropping like flies when they can't roll up/remove their blouse?

I actually saw a cadet wearing his BDU blouse with sleeves cut off (and frayed), I asked a friend who is in the army she said that BDU blouse are obsolete once the sleeves are cut however she said that in the field you COULD legally have them cut off but you needed to supply yourself with TWO blouses not just one which does not apply to us in CAP in terms of field stuff but cutting off our sleeves would render the blouse no longer part of the CAP uniform.  I can easily take my blouse to a seamstress who can cut and hem the sleeve properly (which would be nice) but again it would be out of regulation as it does not permit such.

[MIKE]

You can actually stay cooler if you leave them down versus rolling them up.

[lordmonar]

When I was a Squadron Commander and now as a DCC....I don't care up or down.....but in formation at meetings everyone is the same.

I leave it up to the flight commanders/Sgts to police it.

In the field...it is what ever is most comfortable for the individual.

I wear my down for sun and enviornmental protection but if one of my team wants his up...I let him.

[SarDragon]

I NEVER roll my sleeves up, because I burn easily, even with sunscreen. Similarly, I have also never had problems with overheating while wearing BDUs, so i thi nk that's a specious argument. The folks in the Middle East don't seem to have problems with overheating while wearing all those flowing clothes.

[davedove]

I NEVER roll my sleeves up, because I burn easily, even with sunscreen. Similarly, I have also never had problems with overheating while wearing BDUs, so i thi nk that's a specious argument. The folks in the Middle East don't seem to have problems with overheating while wearing all those flowing clothes.

It makes a big difference whether it's humid or not.  In a dry environment, like the Middle East, it's better to be covered.  In a humid environment, like the CAP Middle East Region, sleeves up allows for better evaporation and better cooling.

Of course, sleeves down is better protection from the sun.

[Rotorhead]

Hey Guys
I have heard that one is not allowed to roll their BDU sleeves until after memorial day, Now I have been living by this rule since I was a wee cadet, but this latest heat wave up here in NJ, and the lost of my Georgian ability to reflect heat lol; has me wanting to make sure I'm not following a myth.

Ever see a reg that said that?

[Stonewall]

sleeves down probably do protect you from the elements and its also a good way to trap plenty of heat Want your members dropping like flies when they can't roll up/remove their blouse?

Hmmm... as a 20+ year CAP guy with all of that time on ground teams, a lot of that time in Florida (hot, humid), 10 years as an Infantryman and a handful of years in Air Force Security Forces; not to mention EMT and Combat Lifesaver.  I've never experienced someone, anyone, dropping out from heat exaustion based on their sleeves being down.  There are other underlying issues if someone drops out. 

Sleeves rolled up is a garrison/REMF thing.  It's a Hollywood thing that makes zero sense.

[shorning]

It makes a big difference whether it's humid or not.  In a dry environment, like the Middle East, it's better to be covered.  In a humid environment, like the CAP Middle East Region, sleeves up allows for better evaporation and better cooling.

Your argument fails in that the entire Middle East isn't "dry".  Bahrain and many of the other Gulf countries get very humid.  I remember being in Bahrain and it being 124°F and 100% humidity. 

[davedove]

It makes a big difference whether it's humid or not.  In a dry environment, like the Middle East, it's better to be covered.  In a humid environment, like the CAP Middle East Region, sleeves up allows for better evaporation and better cooling.

Your argument fails in that the entire Middle East isn't "dry".  Bahrain and many of the other Gulf countries get very humid.  I remember being in Bahrain and it being 124°F and 100% humidity.

:oIn that case, it wouldn't matter to me whether my sleeves were up or down.  I would be inside in the air conditioning.

Of course my statement was pretty general about the Middle East.  I was more concerned about arid vs. humid, not the particular region.  And of course, in an operational environment, especially the military, there are MANY other concerns besides the weather.

My main arguments come from personal experience.  In a hot humid environment, I tend to be cooler with sleeves up.  Now, that may be completely in my mind, or it could be that I feel less sweat trickling down my arms with the sleeves up.

[BillB]

When the CAP uniform was 505 and 1505s there was a May-Oct rule. The long sleeve shirt was worn Oct to May with a tie. The short sleeve shirt was work May-Oct, no tie (you couldn't wer a tie anyway, no top button. When the blues came in the rule was dropped.
Also Mess Dress came in two styles, one for winter and one for summer. Only difference was color of the jacket, one white, one black

[MSgt Van]

Just do me a favor - when wearing them rolled up, cuff will touch or come within 1 inch of forearms when arm
is bent at a 90-degree angle.

Rolling them up to your darn armpit isn't acceptable.

[Hawk200]

Just do me a favor - when wearing them rolled up, cuff will touch or come within 1 inch of forearms when arm
is bent at a 90-degree angle.

Rolling them up to your darn armpit isn't acceptable.

+1.

I hate that. It looks stupid. So does the tight wrap around the arm that many people do too (which really doesn't make much sense either, clothing should be loose to allow heat to vent).

[Spike]

This surely falls as top priority in most Squadrons right?!?!?!

Wear the sleeves down, wear them up....not really a mission factor. 

I also like all the MD's that came out of the woodwork on health related factors for sleeves up or down.  To set the record straight, wearing your sleeves down will (WILL) actually keep you cooler.  It is factual and written in medical and DoD journals.  A simple Google on the subject provides tons of results.  Thus, I will let everyone do their own research. 

[Smithsonia]

^^^^^^
Spike; I have heard and read the same. I just can't find anyone in a Colorado winter willing to wear sleeves-rolled-up for full testing. In my case I can't actually tell the difference. I think this should go to Myth-Busters.

[Dragon 3-2]

Thanks Guys

Sq/CC and DCC said till memorial day anyway so guess I'll be boiling for a bit.

[tdepp]

This surely falls as top priority in most Squadrons right?!?!?!

Wear the sleeves down, wear them up....not really a mission factor. 

I also like all the MD's that came out of the woodwork on health related factors for sleeves up or down.  To set the record straight, wearing your sleeves down will (WILL) actually keep you cooler.  It is factual and written in medical and DoD journals.  A simple Google on the subject provides tons of results.  Thus, I will let everyone do their own research.

In support of Dr. Spike and sleeves down:

From WikiHow: http://www.wikihow.com/Cool-Yourself-Without-Air-Conditioning
"Cover Up: Covering up may actually keep your cooler, especially if the heat is low in humidity. In the scorching temperatures of the Middle Eastern deserts, traditional cultures wear clothing covering from head to toe. By protecting your skin from the sun beating down, you'll also shade your skin. Be sure your clothing is natural fabrics, and loose."

From Survivalx: http://survivalx.com/regional-survival/desert-clothing-and-health.html
"Do not strip off your clothes. Apart from the risk of severe sunburn, an uncovered body will lose sweat through evaporation requiring even more to cool it- but keep the covering as loose as possible so that there is a layer of insulating air. Sweating will then cool you more efficiently."

From the University of Alberta: http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://safety.eas.ualberta.ca/forms/heatstress_WCB.pdf
"A thin layer of air is always trapped next to the skin. When the air temperature is greater than the skin temperature (skin temperature is generally about 35°C), this trapped layer of air protects the skin from direct contact with the hotter air in the environment. Air movement from fans or wind at these high temperatures can strip away this protective layer of air and cause the body to be heated by the warmer air. This is known as convective heating. (This is basically how convection ovens work to cook food faster.) Wearing a light layer of loose-fitting clothing helps to maintain this protective layer of air. This is why in hot desert climates people cover themselves in clothing from head to toe."

And Dr. Epp would agree.  As a wan youth, I was a lifeguard and wore nothing more than a Speedo and a smile.  And I sat outside poolside.  A lot.  In the heat.  In the sun. And I was always hot.

Then when I was older, I started wearing long sleeve shirts and pants while in the sticks on hot summer days to keep the poison ivy, ticks, and snakes at bay.  But lo and behold, I was also cooler, particularly when I wore a big dumb floppy hat.  If on the soccer pitch refereeing, I dress in short sleeves and shorts (and a ball cap), but if hiking, camping, or doing chores outside the house on a hot day, I'm typically covered--and cooler and less sunburned.

So, I'll be wearing my BDU sleeves down in the heat unless otherwise ordered.

[AirAux]

In reality, the main reason to wear the sleeves down is for chemical attacks.  For this reason, ALL CAP personnel on ANY CAP mission  should wear themselves covered to the wrist.  In the old days, WIWAC, we wore the khaki sleeves down to protect us from radiation burns while doing radiological monitoring.  Since we have won that war (at least our monitoring equipment has all rusted out) we no longer have to worry about excess radiation.  Now we must be prepared for chemical attack.  There will not be time to roll down your sleeves while you are trying to put on your mask and NBC or is it NCB gear during an attack.  Time is of the essence..  Your squadron did issue you your chemical gear didn't they??  Or did you order it from Ol' Sarge's??  Make sure you got the latest issue as the chemical agents have been made smaller and more insidious since the original gear was issued..  Carry on..

[Rotorhead]

Thanks Guys

Sq/CC and DCC said till memorial day anyway so guess I'll be boiling for a bit.

For the record, I think this is just dumb.

Some people in this organization just seem to live to make up new rules.

[heliodoc]

^^^^

AGREEEEEEEED!!

[Stonewall]

For the record I think it looks stupid when a formation has cadets with sleeves up and down.  It's a uniformity thing.  To keep everyone uniform (the same).  So if the squadron commander wants everyone's sleeves down, so be it.  If you don't like it, keep your squadron's sleeves up.

[heliodoc]

Agreed Stonewall..

Some in CAP have forgot the basics of uniformity or completely passed it up in all the publications CAP has written or plagarized from the RM.

Time for a time out on "new" CAP regulations OR how about a COMPLETE set of COHERENT regulations and if need, some REAL trainers in CAP about uniform wear?  I mean REAL trainers not some hair brained individuals that got it from hearing from someone else who heard it from someone else who heard it from someone else who heard it from some one else........

But this is CAPTalk.......where reading regulations close enough isn't really required.. forcing folks to come on CT to get the 411 from someone else who heard from someone else who heard it from some one else who heard it from some one else who heard it from someone else who heard it from some one else.

[tdepp]

Agreed Stonewall..

Some in CAP have forgot the basics of uniformity or completely passed it up in all the publications CAP has written or plagarized from the RM.

Time for a time out on "new" CAP regulations OR how about a COMPLETE set of COHERENT regulations and if need, some REAL trainers in CAP about uniform wear?  I mean REAL trainers not some hair brained individuals that got it from hearing from someone else who heard it from someone else who heard it from someone else who heard it from some one else........

But this is CAPTalk.......where reading regulations close enough isn't really required.. forcing folks to come on CT to get the 411 from someone else who heard from someone else who heard it from some one else who heard it from some one else who heard it from someone else who heard it from some one else.

When you look at a typical Israeli IDF soldier, they aren't exactly the picture of military prim and properness.  Their uniforms are wrinkled, their boots are unshined--and they seldom lose a war.  I'm not saying we shouldn't look good in our uniforms or comply with the regulations in their wear.  But the Israelis have apparently made the decision that it's better to have well trained troops rather than troops that stepped off of a drill team or color guard. 

I've also seen Syrian soldiers who also don't look like very good soldiers because their uniforms are dumpy, and, well, from what I've heard from even my Lebanese and Syrian friends, they're not the greatest soldiers in the world.  Perhaps in their case, bad uniforms and the wear thereof means bad soldiers.  But the Israeli soldiers I've seen don't look much better than the Syrians they stare at across the Golan Heights and they are a butt kicking machine. 

I'd rather have a squadron of CAP members who know how to find lost people, relate to cadets, and educate the public about aviation and aerospace and not have perfect uniforms rather than the other way around. Yes, we should have both.  But life is seldom so clear cut or perfect.  Form needs to follow function, not the other way around, IMHO.

And, as I've noted countless times before we are the Civil AIR Patrol, not the Civil UNIFORM Patrol.  I suppose I could make an argument that we are the Civil VANGUARD STINKS Patrol. 

[shorning]

I suppose I could make an argument that we are the Civil VANGUARD STINKS Patrol.

Is that productive?  Do you feel better about yourself?

I'm not an appologist for Vanguard, but good grief...

[heliodoc]

Forgot about those points, tdepp!

But CAP's ties to the AF and some people's wants and needs of being identical to their parent mentor are so crazy at times because of their wanting to be corporate and military at the same time.....

Time for some serious looking at CAP and its training, too.  But in CAP, there is some belief we are active duty or something and have to have the sharpest lookin volunteer uniforms before we can even PRACTICE the trade we are in.

Uniforms search and locate people...better trained people in CAP??  There are some units that do well without all the worries of uniforms displayed here on CT!!!

[tdepp]

I suppose I could make an argument that we are the Civil VANGUARD STINKS Patrol.

Is that productive?  Do you feel better about yourself?

I'm not an appologist for Vanguard, but good grief...

Shorn:

I actually am a Vanguard apologist.  I think they provide reasonably good service and I think the royalties they pay us is just good business.  I'm happy with their products and service.  I was trying to make a joke because so many CTers seem to hate Vanguard.  As usual, humor and sarcasm doesn't translate well in cold, hard digital print, even with the use of the smiley-thingie after it.

[Hawk200]

When you look at a typical Israeli IDF soldier, they aren't exactly the picture of military prim and properness.  Their uniforms are wrinkled, their boots are unshined--and they seldom lose a war.  I'm not saying we shouldn't look good in our uniforms or comply with the regulations in their wear.  But the Israelis have apparently made the decision that it's better to have well trained troops rather than troops that stepped off of a drill team or color guard.

I've also seen Syrian soldiers who also don't look like very good soldiers because their uniforms are dumpy, and, well, from what I've heard from even my Lebanese and Syrian friends, they're not the greatest soldiers in the world.  Perhaps in their case, bad uniforms and the wear thereof means bad soldiers.  But the Israeli soldiers I've seen don't look much better than the Syrians they stare at across the Golan Heights and they are a butt kicking machine.

I dont' really think that's a very fair comparison. The Israeli soldiers I've heard of looking like that do because they spend some long hours on duty, they don't look like crap from the start of the shift. Other armies show up looking like garbage, and it shows in their operations.

It's one thing to pull a twelve hour and look disheveled, it's another thing to show up in the first place looking like you wore your uniform to bed the night before. 

I'd rather have a squadron of CAP members who know how to find lost people, relate to cadets, and educate the public about aviation and aerospace and not have perfect uniforms rather than the other way around. Yes, we should have both.  But life is seldom so clear cut or perfect.  Form needs to follow function, not the other way around, IMHO.

In this case, too, it's not really appropriate. To accept a mediocre appearance in the beginning is the problem.

Too many times we have people showing up trying to look "tacti-kewl", or trying to look like soldiers just off a foot patrol. That's unacceptable. It was once mentioned here by someone that they think the cadet walking in first thing looking like a soldier just trudging off a Chinook with knee pads on their ankles and a forty year old pack looks stupid, not professional.

There are too many examples on the 'Net with people that are wearing unauthorized items or configurations. That creates problems. If every person wearing a blue BDU looks just like the next person wearing a blue BDU; or each person wearing woodland BDU looks just like the next person wearing woodland, then it's uniformity as established by official publication. But the guy that shows in woodlands wearing desert boots because "the Army allows it with theirs" is a problem. If he can't follow one pub, what else is he not following?

I know someone will dispute that it's "just the uniform" pub, they can be fully compliant with everything else. But it doesn't track. I keep seeing more people that don't wear a uniform properly, and they don't know their jobs, or even really much about CAP. They don't spend the time learning what they should, and too often do things a certain way because "this is how so-and-so told me to do it".

If we present an appearance of looking unkempt, people aren't going to be inclined to call us. It's also not valid to say "Well, the public doesn't know what we do, so their opinion doesn't matter". Everyone looks at anyone else and makes the same judgement, whether we choose to admit to it or not. Our appearance is a business card. If you handed someone a wrinkled and stained business card, do you think you're going to be their first choice when they require services?

[tdepp]

When you look at a typical Israeli IDF soldier, they aren't exactly the picture of military prim and properness.  Their uniforms are wrinkled, their boots are unshined--and they seldom lose a war.  I'm not saying we shouldn't look good in our uniforms or comply with the regulations in their wear.  But the Israelis have apparently made the decision that it's better to have well trained troops rather than troops that stepped off of a drill team or color guard.

I've also seen Syrian soldiers who also don't look like very good soldiers because their uniforms are dumpy, and, well, from what I've heard from even my Lebanese and Syrian friends, they're not the greatest soldiers in the world.  Perhaps in their case, bad uniforms and the wear thereof means bad soldiers.  But the Israeli soldiers I've seen don't look much better than the Syrians they stare at across the Golan Heights and they are a butt kicking machine.

I dont' really think that's a very fair comparison. The Israeli soldiers I've heard of looking like that do because they spend some long hours on duty, they don't look like crap from the start of the shift. Other armies show up looking like garbage, and it shows in their operations.

It's one thing to pull a twelve hour and look disheveled, it's another thing to show up in the first place looking like you wore your uniform to bed the night before. 

I'd rather have a squadron of CAP members who know how to find lost people, relate to cadets, and educate the public about aviation and aerospace and not have perfect uniforms rather than the other way around. Yes, we should have both.  But life is seldom so clear cut or perfect.  Form needs to follow function, not the other way around, IMHO.

In this case, too, it's not really appropriate. To accept a mediocre appearance in the beginning is the problem.

Too many times we have people showing up trying to look "tacti-kewl", or trying to look like soldiers just off a foot patrol. That's unacceptable. It was once mentioned here by someone that they think the cadet walking in first thing looking like a soldier just trudging off a Chinook with knee pads on their ankles and a forty year old pack looks stupid, not professional.

There are too many examples on the 'Net with people that are wearing unauthorized items or configurations. That creates problems. If every person wearing a blue BDU looks just like the next person wearing a blue BDU; or each person wearing woodland BDU looks just like the next person wearing woodland, then it's uniformity as established by official publication. But the guy that shows in woodlands wearing desert boots because "the Army allows it with theirs" is a problem. If he can't follow one pub, what else is he not following?

I know someone will dispute that it's "just the uniform" pub, they can be fully compliant with everything else. But it doesn't track. I keep seeing more people that don't wear a uniform properly, and they don't know their jobs, or even really much about CAP. They don't spend the time learning what they should, and too often do things a certain way because "this is how so-and-so told me to do it".

If we present an appearance of looking unkempt, people aren't going to be inclined to call us. It's also not valid to say "Well, the public doesn't know what we do, so their opinion doesn't matter". Everyone looks at anyone else and makes the same judgement, whether we choose to admit to it or not. Our appearance is a business card. If you handed someone a wrinkled and stained business card, do you think you're going to be their first choice when they require services?

I'm guessing the person we find who has been stuck in the wilderness for two days sleeping under a tree and eating berries isn't going to much care if the CAP SM 2d Lt who finds them has their Butter Bars a 1/8" off of their shoulder sleeve seam.

This obsession with uniforms is remarkable.  Yes, follow the regulations and look sharp.  I absolutely try to conform and appreciate it when more senior members advise me on the proper wear of the uniform, insignia, ribbons, and badges.  But there are far more important issues to worry about than whether someone's boots are so shiny they can reflect the sun and melt lead or if their rack of ribbons was just slightly over their pocket. 

[heliodoc]

^^^

WOW, tdepp

You are the man!!  Way too practical for CAP!!

But to a few of us...this has always been the belief.  Wear the uniform sharply, but for those in distress and the unfortunate in All Risk / All Hazard
incidents and environments...the average unfortunate survivor in any situation, isn't "gonna" care what uniform, rank, or how shiny a set of boots are.

CAP needs some more REAL WORLD missions  where they are a support function to many EM and other all risk / all hazard agencies and more than just a Katrina or whatever....not many of those folks/ survivors of incidents are really interested on well peoples clothes are pressed or how many more ribbons one can put on a rack

Some CAPers really need to STEP up out of uniform to their respective EM's angencies and see how real emergency operations are conducted and then see how many AAR's are done about uniforms rather than the mission at hand!!!!!!!!  That will be a TRUE picture that NO one cares about uniforms....its about training and how that training comes together "when the balloon goes up."

[tdepp]

^^^

WOW, tdepp

You are the man!!  Way too practical for CAP!!

But to a few of us...this has always been the belief.  Wear the uniform sharply, but for those in distress and the unfortunate in All Risk / All Hazard
incidents and environments...the average unfortunate survivor in any situation, isn't "gonna" care what uniform, rank, or how shiny a set of boots are.

CAP needs some more REAL WORLD missions  where they are a support function to many EM and other all risk / all hazard agencies and more than just a Katrina or whatever....not many of those folks/ survivors of incidents are really interested on well peoples clothes are pressed or how many more ribbons one can put on a rack

Some CAPers really need to STEP up out of uniform to their respective EM's angencies and see how real emergency operations are conducted and then see how many AAR's are done about uniforms rather than the mission at hand!!!!!!!!  That will be a TRUE picture that NO one cares about uniforms....its about training and how that training comes together "when the balloon goes up."

Helio:
And I'm a lawyer to boot!  Most people don't think we are the most "practical" people in the world, so I take this is a major compliment given my low rank on the karma scale.  Thanks and amen, Brother Helio.

As one of my favorite college English professors said, "Better messy and right rather than neat and wrong." 

Believe me, I understand as an attorney that there is a certain expectation about my personal appearance on the part of the client, the judge, opposing counsel, and other officials when I walk into court, a deposition, or meet with a client for the first time.  I see some attorneys show up to bankruptcy court proceedings without ties and in blue jeans and I think it is unprofessional.  But on the other hand, I've also been around some lawyers who weren't the snazziest dressers who were really good. 

But bottom line, my clients want results or at least the best result possible given the circumstances and for a reasonable price. If I do it while in a pink bunny suit, many would not care. (Yes, the judge and the state bar would care.) 

And same thing on our missions.  I flew a double secret probation mission this week for the USAF as an MS.  I was in the blue corporate flightsuit.  The MP was in the USAF-style sage flightsuit. Our MO was in a polo shirt and gray pants.  Did we match?  No.  Did we do what we needed to do in a safe and effective manner?  Yes.  The USAF didn't come check our uniforms before the mission and say my captains' bars were too far off the seam or that the MO didn't have enough shine on his shoes or the MP had a patch 1/4" too far down his arm.  Uniforms weren't a part of our mission briefing.  Making sure we didn't run into other aircraft was, however.  Yeah, crazy, I know.

Mission first.  Ok, safety first, then the mission.  I think looking good while doing it is important too.  But it is not THE most important thing.  As one of my least favorite comics on the face of the planet, Larry the Cable Guy says, "Git'r done!"  I agree.

[heliodoc]

^^^

Copy all that, sir

NOW....just get ready for CAPTalk flaming to PROOOOCEED!!

Next thing you know some Juliett Alfa in CAP will tell us to stop slapping each other on the back and giving oooodles of congratulations and how blasphemous we are in CAP or someone  who wants to dress down practicality in favor of how a uniform makes us "more professional" in our CAP activities...

Get ready for the CAPTalk uniform flamethrowers.....................

[Stonewall]

Even in (sometimes especially) in the military I get "hardcorp" types arguing the whole mantra of "I'd rather have a troop that knows his job than knows how to look good in uniform".  I always argue that if you can fly a plane, set up a landing zone or write an operations order, you most definitely can follow written guidelines on wearing a uniform.

[lordmonar]

Even in (sometimes especially) in the military I get "hardcorp" types arguing the whole mantra of "I'd rather have a troop that knows his job than knows how to look good in uniform".  I always argue that if you can fly a plane, set up a landing zone or write an operations order, you most definitely can follow written guidelines on wearing a uniform.

As a civilian contractor of course our #1 prioity is giving good service to our customer and making as much profit as possilble (i.e. always looking for ways to keep down costs)...but we too have a dress policy and we do hold our employees to it. 

It is not a big deal....but it IS IMPORTANT.

Same with CAP.

Uniforms are important.  In garrison, in cadet programs they are more important then in the field while doing ES (real or training).

As with most things a sense of perspective must be maintained.

[heliodoc]

You are correct, Stonewall

But I come from that life also

BUT in the current life with emergency management and wildland fire......and the dealings with communities after a disaster in many communities in a Midwestern State......most of those all risk / all hazard operations whether it was a tabletop, drill, functional, full scale exercise, or the real deal disaster........it came down to one thing........

Uniform issues were dealt with on a local level with the supervisors and commanders of units.....the real McCoy comes in with the AAR and in all those exercises and real life disasters.....never did I hear a mention of uniforms...indicating to me as a exercise participant or observer/ controller (OJT) that uniforms in emergency services was near last or never mentioned.   It was all on the training given / received or the actions of community operators, volunteers, etc and how they did their respective jobs and operations, NOT the clothes they wore!!

[Hawk200]

I'm guessing the person we find who has been stuck in the wilderness for two days sleeping under a tree and eating berries isn't going to much care if the CAP SM 2d Lt who finds them has their Butter Bars a 1/8" off of their shoulder sleeve seam.

That's not the kind of crap I'm talking about, and I'm pretty sure you dang well know it. I'm talking about gross violations such as desert boots being worn with our BDUs, the t-shirt that someone is wearing that has the "AC/DC" silkscreen partly visible at the collar, no namtag even though they've been in seven months, and the like. That crap is unacceptable just because you're finding people. It's an excuse, and a poor one.

This obsession with uniforms is remarkable.  Yes, follow the regulations and look sharp.  I absolutely try to conform and appreciate it when more senior members advise me on the proper wear of the uniform, insignia, ribbons, and badges.  But there are far more important issues to worry about than whether someone's boots are so shiny they can reflect the sun and melt lead or if their rack of ribbons was just slightly over their pocket.

It seems like you think it's perfectly acceptable to dismiss compliance with publications because they're "little" details. Then again, your choice to make. But don't complain when it comes back to bite you.

Even in (sometimes especially) in the military I get "hardcorp" types arguing the whole mantra of "I'd rather have a troop that knows his job than knows how to look good in uniform".  I always argue that if you can fly a plane, set up a landing zone or write an operations order, you most definitely can follow written guidelines on wearing a uniform.

That pretty much makes the point. If you ignore publications (and I mean specifically ignore) and can't be bothered to wear a uniform right, people will question your competence in any other area.

Same thing in the civilian world, if you look like a dirtbag, people aren't gonna consider you reliable.

I find it ironic that people want cred with the military, but don't want to bother with the attention to detail factor.

[Gung Ho]

I understand looking good in uniform and it does reflect on the unit as a whole. I've read many posts on uniforms and have come to understand it's going to plague CAP for a long time. We do have many uniforms to wear and we are going to have folks that don't fit in normal reg's. Only question I have is why do we have camo BDU's? Isn't camo for being able to hide from somebody? Seems if we would limit the differant uniforms then it might be easier to conform to a standard. Maybe there is a good reason to wear camo, and if there is please fill me in.

[Hawk200]

I understand looking good in uniform and it does reflect on the unit as a whole.

Many people have different ideas on "what looks good". To some people, if you don't have a mirror shine and a uniform with the stiffness of cardboard, then you "don't look good". That's on the ridiculous side. They get a little miffed when you ask them how much they paid to have it done.

All that's needed is a uniform that is in compliance with the manual. That means required insignia properly placed, clean, pressed, and all appropriate items worn with it. (That means that the leather belt, Jack Daniels hat, or the hiking boots people are wearing with BDUs isn't appropriate). That's all it takes. Too bad there are people that spend more time and energy arguing to justify the wrong rather than just fix it.

Seems if we would limit the differant uniforms then it might be easier to conform to a standard.

One set of uniforms is not going to cure anything. I've seen the same violations with Blue BDUs, and in a lot of cases it's because many people lack ethics, integrity, or other values. Some violations are a result of ignorance, which can be forgiven as long as the person accepts proper correction (correction presented both civilly and privately).

Maybe there is a good reason to wear camo, and if there is please fill me in.

That's the utility uniform that the Air Force wore for twenty years, and being their auxiliary, we wore it too. They were pretty inexpensive due to mass production, and were readily available in good used condition.

[MSgt Van]

From "when do I roll up my sleeves" to this? Holy thread creep Batman...

[jimmydeanno]

The last squadron I was in was using some sort of unwritten nebulous rule about when to wear their sleeves up and down.  When I took over as DCC when it came to be spring, they asked me when they should start wearing their sleeves up. 

If the cadet is cold on a sleeves up day, why am I going to make them keep them up?
If they're hot and would prefer to have their sleeves up, why would I make them keep them down?

People have different levels of comfort.  You may decide that it is hot enough to wear sleeves up at 55 degrees, while the skinny, 12 year old girl is turning blue at that temp.

I always let the cadet determine what is most comfortable for them at the time.  I wasn't unheard of to have the cadets start with their sleeves down, do some sort of activity, roll them up, do a classroom in the A/C, come out with them down, etc.

I have better things to do than monitor whether or not sleeves are up or down on a particular day.

[Gung Ho]

I was thinking they just changed it a decided cadets could not roll up the sleeves at any time.

[lordmonar]

As I said before....in formation it looks better to have everyone the same....sleeves up/down, short/long sleeve, ties/no ties.

As DCC my cadet officers wanted to wear service caps....I made them get wing CC approval and told them if one of them wore it...they all had to wear it.

So they got together and raised the money and made sure that they all had service caps.

In the field I let them wear their sleeves as they wish.

[tdepp]

I'm guessing the person we find who has been stuck in the wilderness for two days sleeping under a tree and eating berries isn't going to much care if the CAP SM 2d Lt who finds them has their Butter Bars a 1/8" off of their shoulder sleeve seam.

That's not the kind of crap I'm talking about, and I'm pretty sure you dang well know it. I'm talking about gross violations such as desert boots being worn with our BDUs, the t-shirt that someone is wearing that has the "AC/DC" silkscreen partly visible at the collar, no namtag even though they've been in seven months, and the like. That crap is unacceptable just because you're finding people. It's an excuse, and a poor one.

This obsession with uniforms is remarkable.  Yes, follow the regulations and look sharp.  I absolutely try to conform and appreciate it when more senior members advise me on the proper wear of the uniform, insignia, ribbons, and badges.  But there are far more important issues to worry about than whether someone's boots are so shiny they can reflect the sun and melt lead or if their rack of ribbons was just slightly over their pocket.

It seems like you think it's perfectly acceptable to dismiss compliance with publications because they're "little" details. Then again, your choice to make. But don't complain when it comes back to bite you.

Even in (sometimes especially) in the military I get "hardcorp" types arguing the whole mantra of "I'd rather have a troop that knows his job than knows how to look good in uniform".  I always argue that if you can fly a plane, set up a landing zone or write an operations order, you most definitely can follow written guidelines on wearing a uniform.

That pretty much makes the point. If you ignore publications (and I mean specifically ignore) and can't be bothered to wear a uniform right, people will question your competence in any other area.

Same thing in the civilian world, if you look like a dirtbag, people aren't gonna consider you reliable.

I find it ironic that people want cred with the military, but don't want to bother with the attention to detail factor.

No where did I say or imply that CAP members should not abide by the uniform regulations or any other regulations.  I'm just saying that in the grand scheme of things, it's better to perform well than look good, but that we should strive to do both. 

Geez, buy them books and buy them books and all they do is lick the pages. 

[JayT]

If you see a cop, a medic, or a fire dawg who looks sloppy, you gotta start to wonder what else their skipping out on. Yes, the person sleeping under the stars for three days with the second degree bones and broken leg doesn't care if you come rolling up looking like the Marines from Aliens, but that's about the other ninety nine percent of the time, it's just sloppy.

If I see a medic with his pants ripped, shirt stained, and four days of beard, good chances I'm gonna also find his bag trashed and his belt a mess, and then I'm gonna start wondering if he's someone I'm gonna want on the rig with me.

[Hawk200]

No where did I say or imply that CAP members should not abide by the uniform regulations or any other regulations.  I'm just saying that in the grand scheme of things, it's better to perform well than look good, but that we should strive to do both.

Not the impression I got from your post. Too many people have this idea that doing a job is more important than appearance. The problem is that many don't seem to realize that appearance is part of the job. All pubs are important. You want to pick and choose what you want, go to a cafeteria.

Geez, buy them books and buy them books and all they do is lick the pages. 

Probably because some aren't smart enough or concerned enough to read them.

[lordmonar]

I got to call BS on that one Hawk.

Looking good is ONE of our jobs.....it is not part of all our jobs.

It is a matter of perspective....and keeping all of our jobs in their right place.

Safety is a job.....sometimes other jobs get stopped or modified because of our safety job.

Operations is a job....as is CP, AE, unfiorms, Equal Opportunity, fincial management.

these are all jobs....some are more important than others.

If all jobs were equal then a failure in one job would be a failure in all.....and that is not possible.

As leaders we often have to make decisions based on conflicting needs, guidances, resources, regulations and urgencies.

We have tools like ORM to help us with some of those conflicting needs...but not always.

Getting the mission done is our job as leaders.  It is our function to get it done.  If that means we have to bend or ignore a regulations then we use our tools to get the mission done.

I have to pick and choose which regulations I am going to follow because many of them are contradictory and/or are detrimental to getting the mission done.

If I need to quit CAP the so be it....but I am getting the mission done.

[Hawk200]

Safety is a job.....sometimes other jobs get stopped or modified because of our safety job.

OK, show me how to perform safety. Show me the job description. I doubt you can satisfactorily.

Safety is how work is performed, not a job to itself.

Operations is a job....as is CP, AE, unfiorms, Equal Opportunity, fincial management.

Separate taskings. I'll accept the difference in semantics.

these are all jobs....some are more important than others.

If all jobs were equal then a failure in one job would be a failure in all.....and that is not possible.

So we can eliminate certain things altogether. If some are more important than others, then the less important aren't needed.

As leaders we often have to make decisions based on conflicting needs, guidances, resources, regulations and urgencies.

We have tools like ORM to help us with some of those conflicting needs...but not always.

Getting the mission done is our job as leaders.  It is our function to get it done.  If that means we have to bend or ignore a regulations then we use our tools to get the mission done.

I have to pick and choose which regulations I am going to follow because many of them are contradictory and/or are detrimental to getting the mission done.

I'll agree that there are contradictory publications. But you're gonna have a serious task at hand convincing me that wearing a uniform improperly is going to improve the chances of mission success in any way, shape or form.

It's a simple thing to wear a uniform right. It's an indicator that other tasks can be performed satisfactorily. As a retired NCO, I know that you used that same yardstick while active duty. The ragbag gets the dirty details that don't require a lot of supervision, the poster child gets the more involved tasks and benefits because they present an appearance that shows attention to detail.

I just don't understand how people can think it's OK to ignore one thing and assume that someone is going to perform any other task properly. That's a double standard.

[tdepp]

No where did I say or imply that CAP members should not abide by the uniform regulations or any other regulations.  I'm just saying that in the grand scheme of things, it's better to perform well than look good, but that we should strive to do both.

Not the impression I got from your post. Too many people have this idea that doing a job is more important than appearance. The problem is that many don't seem to realize that appearance is part of the job. All pubs are important. You want to pick and choose what you want, go to a cafeteria.

Ok Hawk, I'll make this as clear as I can: WEAR YOUR CAP UNIFORM WITH PRIDE AND COMPLY WITH ALL REGULATIONS CONCERNING UNIFORM WEAR! 

Any questions?

[Hawk200]

Ok Hawk, I'll make this as clear as I can: WEAR YOUR CAP UNIFORM WITH PRIDE AND COMPLY WITH ALL REGULATIONS CONCERNING UNIFORM WEAR!

I already do, and I'll make this clear to you: I expect the same attention to detail and proper uniform wear from you and anyone else in CAP.

Many people just don't want to be associated with the ash and trash of people that can't follow something other than their own uncontrolled impulses.

[tdepp]

Ok Hawk, I'll make this as clear as I can: WEAR YOUR CAP UNIFORM WITH PRIDE AND COMPLY WITH ALL REGULATIONS CONCERNING UNIFORM WEAR!

I already do, and I'll make this clear to you: I expect the same attention to detail and proper uniform wear from you and anyone else in CAP.

Many people just don't want to be associated with the ash and trash of people that can't follow something other than their own uncontrolled impulses.

Hawk:
So, I should be expecting a visit from you soon to make sure my uniform is correct? I have an insignia measuring tool of my own, so you can pack light.  I believe my squadron commander has this well in hand but perhaps he wouldn't mind the help.

BTW, I was at our squadron HQ at 0810 this morning (a Saturday on my day off) cleaning toilets and windows.  I hope I had the appropriate uniform on and that it was properly worn.  Otherwise, I guess I shouldn't have shown up.  I'll let you know when the next latrine cleaning mission is so you can assist with that after you inspect my uniform.  I wouldn't mind being sent home to change because my squadron patch is a 1/16th of inch off of where it should be.  I know CAP wouldn't want me sticking my hands in a crapper if my uniform was not in total and complete compliance with the regulations or your interpretation of the regulations.

Thank you for your generous offer of assistance.  In the meantime, I will be developing a set of squadron regulations on the appropriate type of toilet brush to use and how to use it while on squadron latrine duty.  Would you prefer a PDF or Word version?

[mynetdude]

Ok Hawk, I'll make this as clear as I can: WEAR YOUR CAP UNIFORM WITH PRIDE AND COMPLY WITH ALL REGULATIONS CONCERNING UNIFORM WEAR!

I already do, and I'll make this clear to you: I expect the same attention to detail and proper uniform wear from you and anyone else in CAP.

Many people just don't want to be associated with the ash and trash of people that can't follow something other than their own uncontrolled impulses.

Hawk:
So, I should be expecting a visit from you soon to make sure my uniform is correct? I have an insignia measuring tool of my own, so you can pack light.  I believe my squadron commander has this well in hand but perhaps he wouldn't mind the help.

BTW, I was at our squadron HQ at 0810 this morning (a Saturday on my day off) cleaning toilets and windows.  I hope I had the appropriate uniform on and that it was properly worn.  Otherwise, I guess I shouldn't have shown up.  I'll let you know when the next latrine cleaning mission is so you can assist with that after you inspect my uniform.  I wouldn't mind being sent home to change because my squadron patch is a 1/16th of inch off of where it should be.  I know CAP wouldn't want me sticking my hands in a crapper if my uniform was not in total and complete compliance with the regulations or your interpretation of the regulations.

Thank you for your generous offer of assistance.  In the meantime, I will be developing a set of squadron regulations on the appropriate type of toilet brush to use and how to use it while on squadron latrine duty.  Would you prefer a PDF or Word version?

*facepalm* is it really that hard to be that acurate? I don't know, I just tell my seamstress what needs to be done and I give them the regulation that pertains to the uniform part in question and I explain to them what it says what it means and hopefully I understand it and so do they (luckily my seamstress is a retired military veteran).

[heliodoc]

Hey tdepp!!

Did you have on one dress shoe, one combat boot, one Class A shirt, one BDU pair of BDU pants, one white sock, one black sock, a goretx jacket over a M65 field jacket, with a BDU cover on, with a flight cap over that, one dress glove, one Nomex glove under a a pair of Gloves, Men and Women's, Leather, Light Duty  NSN 8415-01-310-7338 while you had a 39-1 in your left hand and toilet brush in your right?

How's that crapper lookin this afternoon at 1733 CST?  Are you still there watching it so it doesn't move?  Is it a beauuuuuutiful static display?

CAP...... Commode Admiration Patrol

[mynetdude]

Hey tdepp!!

Did you have on one dress shoe, one combat boot, one Class A shirt, one BDU pair of BDU pants, one white sock, one black sock, a goretx jacket over a M65 field jacket, with a BDU cover on, with a flight cap over that, one dress glove, one Nomex glove under a a pair of Gloves, Men and Women's, Leather, Light Duty  NSN 8415-01-310-7338 while you had a 39-1 in your left hand and toilet brush in your right?

How's that crapper lookin this afternoon at 1733 CST?  Are you still there watching it so it doesn't move?  Is it a beauuuuuutiful static display?

CAP...... Commode Admiration Patrol

Nice imagination heli,

Actually I have seen a cadet officer wear his service cap while wearing BDUs not intentionally either, but then again he was in violation of 39-1.

[heliodoc]

^^^

No imagination needed

Warrant Officer Class 86-09 Ft Rucker AL.........  the Wiregrass Country   buddies of mine

TAC Officer imaginations......your tax dollar at work

Be an imagination for ANY CAP encampment for fun and frivolity.......CAP Encampment CC's take note!!

[heliodoc]

..........only Goretex was even around then

Maybe Natick Labs had it on the radar....

[heliodoc]

Fat fingering after a day at the GX 55  simulator

Goretex  was NOT around during 85-86 era  at least in the US Army

[SarDragon]

Initial Gore-Tex patent granted in 1976; secondary patent granted 1980. The second one was most likely the one used for military outerware.

[heliodoc]

^^^^^^

SAWEET!!

Never saw in my IADT or other issue 'til approx 1992

[Gunner C]

Fat fingering after a day at the GX 55  simulator

Goretex  was NOT around during 85-86 era  at least in the US Army

I was issued my first Goretex Parka and pants in April (first or second week) 1984.

[tdepp]

Hey tdepp!!

Did you have on one dress shoe, one combat boot, one Class A shirt, one BDU pair of BDU pants, one white sock, one black sock, a goretx jacket over a M65 field jacket, with a BDU cover on, with a flight cap over that, one dress glove, one Nomex glove under a a pair of Gloves, Men and Women's, Leather, Light Duty  NSN 8415-01-310-7338 while you had a 39-1 in your left hand and toilet brush in your right?

How's that crapper lookin this afternoon at 1733 CST?  Are you still there watching it so it doesn't move?  Is it a beauuuuuutiful static display?

CAP...... Commode Admiration Patrol

Helio:
Dang! Busted!