Quote from: jeders on June 21, 2013, 02:47:36 PM

Quote from: robaroth on June 21, 2013, 12:21:34 PM

Quote from: flyer333555 on June 21, 2013, 11:42:48 AM
Joe-

Nice words, specifically in that some that salute may well know who we are, and by saying "Do not salute me, I am CAP" you are slapping them in their face.

:clap:

Flyer

I agree and would always return a salute, I just remove the possibility from the equation by wearing the polo shirt

I'm picking on you because yours was the closest response that works to my means, and I apologize. Do you give proper greetings when you wear your polo? How about when you're at work or at the grocery store? The point is that, just like say good morning and calling someone sir or ma'am is part of being polite in everyday society, a salute is a part of being polite in a military/paramilitary society. If you don't want to be polite and show someone respect, then I have to assume that you are not worthy of receiving respect. Therefore not worth my time.

Again I'm picking on you only due to proximity, I'm sure you show respect normally just as any polite person would.

Your argument is specious, as salutes are courtesies given only under certain circumstances, including being in uniform.  Even were I a Corporal in the Army and at the Bronx Zoo I would not salute an officer who was not in uniform if I happened to see him in the reptile house.  As the polo uniform is, for all intents and purposes, from the eye of a non-CAP observer civilian clothing there would be no reason for anyone in uniform to salute.  Much as when I went on base with my uncle so he could use the commissary (he had retired) no one saluted him as he was in civies.

Quote from: robaroth on June 21, 2013, 03:22:17 PM
Much as when I went on base with my uncle so he could use the commissary (he had retired) no one saluted him as he was in civies.

Yes, but I'm sure that they greeted him in a polite and courteous manner. There is a reason that it's called customs and courtesies, salutes are a courtesy and are part of being polite. And believe it or not, throughout history the salute has been exchanged between non-military persons.

Quote from: robaroth on June 21, 2013, 03:22:17 PM
Your argument is specious, as salutes are courtesies given only under certain circumstances, including being in uniform.

Specious?  Really?

That seems a little harsh.  Especially since what he said is actually true.

Quote from: The Army Officer's Guide
If the exchange of salutes is otherwise appropriate, it is customary, although optional, for military members in civilian clothing to exchange hand salutes upon recognition.

Which is what I was taught (and practiced) as an Army officer for a couple of decades.

See also AR 600-25, Salutes, Honors, and Visits of Courtesy

It really is a courtesy.  Politeness.  Comradeship.  Nothing more, nothing less.

QuoteEven were I a Corporal in the Army and at the Bronx Zoo I would not salute an officer who was not in uniform if I happened to see him in the reptile house.

Well, the applicable Army regulation does say it is optional in civlilian attire.  You have every right to not say "Good Morning" to your mother as well.  You may be as discourteous as your conscience permits in civilian attire. 

QuoteMuch as when I went on base with my uncle so he could use the commissary (he had retired) no one saluted him as he was in civies.

But they probably would have had they known he was a retired officer.  As just one example, as a retired officer I am saluted without fail by military gate guards after they return my ID.  Even when I am in civilian clothing. Because they are being courteous.

Thank you for your service.  Please be courteous while serving.  I'll try to do the same.

Ned Lee
Retired Army Guy

QuoteYour argument is specious, as salutes are courtesies given only under certain circumstances, including being in uniform.  Even were I a Corporal in the Army and at the Bronx Zoo I would not salute an officer who was not in uniform if I happened to see him in the reptile house.  As the polo uniform is, for all intents and purposes, from the eye of a non-CAP observer civilian clothing there would be no reason for anyone in uniform to salute.  Much as when I went on base with my uncle so he could use the commissary (he had retired) no one saluted him as he was in civies.

If you are in uniform and you personally recognize a superior officer, it is absolutely proper and correct to salute them and offer the greeting of the day. Why? Because you KNOW him/her and you KNOW he/she out ranks you.

Now if an officer, whom you do not know, walks past you in civilian clothing, how would you know that he/she was even an officer? You don't, so there is nothing wrong with not saluting in that case. Which, if your uncle was retired, was highly likely the case as how many people there personally knew  him as an officer and knew he was due a salute, even civilian clothing? Unless they had an "officer detector" that pings in their pocket when an officer is within 20 paces, they wouldn't.

I'd also like to point out (at least at Army bases) that commissary is normally designated a "salute free zone" because of the high volume of traffic and the last thing you need to do is fumble for a salute while carrying three bags of grocery's.

Personally, I have two varieties of salutes - the strictly formal, done while in uniform, flavor we all learned while in acquisition training, and a less formal, tip-of-the-hat style that accomplishes the same purpose, without seeming out of place in a civilian clothes environment. The recipient usually returns it in a similar manner, or merely nods,and adds a verbal greeting.

It has always been accepted for what it is, a greeting.

YMMV.

Quote from: robaroth on June 20, 2013, 12:05:56 PM
I myself generally wear the polo shirt, unless there is a reason to wear a uniform with rank and insignia.  I have been made uncomfortable in the past by being saluted by actual service members due to the "rank" on my BDUs or shoulderboards.  With the polo shirt, I'm just another civilian.  Regardless of what national decides I hope they give a decent phase out period so people don't go too huge an expense.

First, I'll say you have every right to feel the way you feel. Don't let anyone tell you anything different. Everyone has a different opinion on everything in life.

With that being said, there's nothing wrong with being saluted by AD members of the military or any other duty status. A salute is rendered to those person's who are an officer of higher rank and returned to those who salute you. You don't have to be military to be saluted, or to return a salute. You don't even have to be the same organization. Police will salute a higher officer under certain circumstances the same as fire fighters. Usually ceremonial ones, but it occurs nonetheless.

We are not military. We are civilians working in a paramilitary organization. We've earned our grade just the same as those in the military have earned theirs. Our requirements are different than theirs to achieve each grade, but that shouldn't matter. A supply officer in the AF versus an infantry officer in the Marines have had to go through significantly different paths to get to the same rank of Captain. Doesn't mean that one is any better than the other. If an AD person salutes me I return the salute.

Quote from: jeders on June 20, 2013, 09:10:00 PM

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on June 20, 2013, 08:56:38 PM

Quote from: robaroth on June 20, 2013, 12:05:56 PM
I myself generally wear the polo shirt, unless there is a reason to wear a uniform with rank and insignia.  I have been made uncomfortable in the past by being saluted by actual service members due to the "rank" on my BDUs or shoulderboards.  With the polo shirt, I'm just another civilian.  Regardless of what national decides I hope they give a decent phase out period so people don't go too huge an expense.

Great points.  I was only an E4 in the Army and am now a Captain in CAP.  I prefer not to wear rank insignia especially around active duty personnel for a few reasons and one is that I do not feel my CAP captain's bars deserve to be saluted by active duty even an E-1.   I would consider it especially strange and undeserved for a CAP officer who never served in the armed forces to be saluted by anybody in the armed forces regardless of the ranks of the two individuals.

This right here is just about the single biggest problem in CAP. Those who feel that CAP grade is not worthy.

Absolutely agree. I already posted once just now here about that. We aren't AD, reserve, or guard. Who cares. Its as if people feel the only people in the world deserving of a salute are military. I had an LAPD officer salute me once. Why? Because he saw the bars. Didn't matter what the organization was. We were in the proper setting and he saluted.

We should be saluted by our own membership, and we should except salutes from any other organization that renders one to us.

I had to meet me organization's goals and requirements to get to my rank just as an AF A1C did for his. As I've said before, if we start saying that one organization's requirements are enough than a Marine could blow off of the AF and Navy whenever he felt.

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on June 20, 2013, 11:02:18 PM
The thing is that rank in CAP is pretty easy to come by versus what it takes to earn it in the military.  While what it takes to make Captain in the Army, Marines & Air Force or Lieutenant in the Navy are comparable to each other and therefore are deserving of the same respect and consideration from members of the other services, what it takes to make the same rank in CAP is far, far less and is therefore not deserving of the same.  Anyone who believes otherwise is only fooling himself.

I am not adverse to a rank structure in CAP, it has its place.  However as long as its insignia is the same as the military and people in CAP wear an Air Force style uniform, I will continue to avoid wearing it.  If all of our uniforms were distinctive and our grade insignia were different than the military, not only would I be far more prone to wear it but so would numerous others.

This simply isn't true. The requirements for O-3 (just picking a rank here for the sake of argument) between the seven branches of uniformed service are greatly different. The similarity exists only in the types of requirements rather than the actual requirements themselves. This is even true of officers in the same branch of the military but a different MOS. Time in grade, physical fitness, rifle range, pistol range, swim quals, extra duty, pro/con marks, how many (if any) page 11's, etc. Some of those aren't even required by all services. I doubt the AF has swim quals whereas the Marine Corps does. Heck, in the Marines, one is required to read certain books and/or documents per each grade level.

To obtain a higher grade in an SDF is significantly harder than it is in CAP. Does that really matter? No.

It is not for any of us to say one's organizational requirements aren't as hard as the next.

Quote from: Brad on June 20, 2013, 11:49:04 PM

For what it's worth I tried to go active duty. Was working towards my Ensign commission through NROTC but ultimately got disqualified non-waiverable due to sleepwalking. Regardless, I still took the oath to support and defend the Constituion, and CAP is my way of making good on it. It keeps me in uniform and allows me to make good on my oath to the best of my ability. Do I go trolling for salutes? No, but I return them gladly if offered. I've even had a retired USMC Master Sergeant who I could tell had seen some things come up to me and offer me a salute, and I could tell he knew I was CAP, but he still told me all the same, "Thank you for your service, sir." Did I protest? Did I say there's no need to salute me? No, I returned his salute properly and carried on.

Amen to that! I was a Marine. Never had a problem saluting a CAP officer, or an SDF member when I rarely saw them. We were always informed of who those person's were, that we weren't required but as a sign of respect we should. They serve the country just like us but in a different manner. Service to country was the main factor in our being suggested we salute.

Quote from: JoeTomasone on June 21, 2013, 05:42:14 AM

3. CAP is a curious, contradictory mixture of civilian and military.   We are not under UCMJ, but we are subject to Posse Commitatus.  We are volunteers, but are considered instrumentalities of the United States when performing AFAMs.    We don't carry CAC cards, but have a military liaison command (CAP-USAF). 

One thing I noticed a few years ago was that my CAP card didn't have this but my CGAUX ID card has full Geneva Convention coding. Than again the mission of the CGAUX is a little different so I can understand. You've got CGAUX members serving on Navy ships in Africa right now. So I guess the coding makes sense.

I know my SDF ID had one when I was a member of one. It was even a CAC ID. I know the CGAUX is working on making their cards CAC. Makes it so much simpler than having to get a contractor's ID card for CAP when we meet on base.

Quote from: robaroth on June 21, 2013, 03:22:17 PM


Your argument is specious, as salutes are courtesies given only under certain circumstances, including being in uniform.  Even were I a Corporal in the Army and at the Bronx Zoo I would not salute an officer who was not in uniform if I happened to see him in the reptile house.  As the polo uniform is, for all intents and purposes, from the eye of a non-CAP observer civilian clothing there would be no reason for anyone in uniform to salute.  Much as when I went on base with my uncle so he could use the commissary (he had retired) no one saluted him as he was in civies.

Incorrect. If a person is known to be an officer, and would be requiring of a salute, whether they are in uniform or not you are required to salute. MOH recipient Dakota Meyer doesn't need to be in uniform or wearing his MOH. If you know it's him you salute. Period. The only requirement would be that you were in uniform as rendering a salute when not in uniform is neither required and sometimes prohibited.

Quote from: NorCal21 on June 23, 2013, 03:07:45 AM
It is not for any of us to say one's organizational requirements aren't as hard as the next.

+1

Quote from: NorCal21 on June 23, 2013, 03:17:18 AM
Incorrect. If a person is known to be an officer, and would be requiring of a salute, whether they are in uniform or not you are required to salute. MOH recipient Dakota Meyer doesn't need to be in uniform or wearing his MOH. If you know it's him you salute. Period. The only requirement would be that you were in uniform as rendering a salute when not in uniform is neither required and sometimes prohibited.

Cite please. I can tell for the AF I am not required to salute anyone while they or I are not in uniform whether or not I recognize them as an officer or not. Nor am I required by law or AFI to salute Medal of Honor recipients.  I suggest you check your facts before stating something as fact.

Quote from: abdsp51 on June 23, 2013, 03:42:44 AM

Quote from: NorCal21 on June 23, 2013, 03:17:18 AM
Incorrect. If a person is known to be an officer, and would be requiring of a salute, whether they are in uniform or not you are required to salute. MOH recipient Dakota Meyer doesn't need to be in uniform or wearing his MOH. If you know it's him you salute. Period. The only requirement would be that you were in uniform as rendering a salute when not in uniform is neither required and sometimes prohibited.

Cite please. I can tell for the AF I am not required to salute anyone while they or I are not in uniform whether or not I recognize them as an officer or not. Nor am I required by law or AFI to salute Medal of Honor recipients.  I suggest you check your facts before stating something as fact.

Dude you are really starting to damage my calm. You really need to read what people say and thoughtfully think out your responses because here you've missed what I was saying once again.

I don't need to cite anything. Anyone who's been a Marine knows that you salute an officer in uniform or not. Its a C&C even if its not a regulation. Same thing with MOH recipients.

I suggest you check your reading of my posts before you misquote me as saying anything was a "fact." Please go ahead and show me where I said something was fact. I was referring to C&Cs here and not necessarily regulations. Marine Corps rule of thumb is when it doubt whip out otherwise paint it green.

Quote from: abdsp51 on June 23, 2013, 03:42:44 AM
Nor am I required by law or AFI to salute Medal of Honor recipients.  I suggest you check your facts before stating something as fact.

p.s. I guess us Marines just hold ourselves to a higher standard of respect.

I remember as a Marine stationed on Kadena AB I saluted a female AF 2LT. She stopped me and told me she rarely got saluted and thanked me. That was the beginning of a beautiful 6 week friendship. ;-)

NorCal,

The only one ruining your calm is you.  You have stated that saluting an officer if known regardless of whether or not they or you are in uniform is a requirement, and the same with MOH recipients as fact.  Neither of which is the case, I think you need to do further research.  And you can cry Marine pride all you want, however I have met many Marines who have been far more unprofessional than the rest of the branches, and I can give two examples.  And since we are the AF Auxiliary we follow AF rules and C&C. 

You were asked to cite and you want to backpedal which shows how little you know outside the Marine life. 

I think the hang up here is the term "required".

Now in basic training SSgt Begin told me a lot of things were "required"......calling him sir....say "Sir, Airman Harris Reports" before I ever talked to him, making hospital corners on by bed, lining my shoes up on the tile lines, folding the toilet paper in a 45 degree triangle (paper is always over!).

Saluting MHO recipients is like standing at attention during the Air Force Song.......it is "required" but no one is going to go to jail for failing to do so.

Here is what the AFI says about this subject

QuoteNOTE: Rendering/returning salutes is not required if either or both are in civilian attire or have their hands full; however, a greeting such as good morning sir/ma'am‖ is appropriate.

So there ends the debate.

Either of the individuals not in uniform you are NOT required to salute......but a greeting is appropriate.

Quote from: abdsp51 on June 23, 2013, 04:03:35 PM
NorCal,

The only one ruining your calm is you.  You have stated that saluting an officer if known regardless of whether or not they or you are in uniform is a requirement, and the same with MOH recipients as fact.  Neither of which is the case, I think you need to do further research.  And you can cry Marine pride all you want, however I have met many Marines who have been far more unprofessional than the rest of the branches, and I can give two examples.  And since we are the AF Auxiliary we follow AF rules and C&C. 

You were asked to cite and you want to backpedal which shows how little you know outside the Marine life.

Saluting officers and MOH recipients when recognized is common practice in the Army and Marine Corps, when did the USAF stop this practice? 

It is till "common practice".....but it is not "required".....there is a subtle but significant difference in terminology here.