Does anybody know where to buy a magnetic ribbon rack?

[Shuman 14]

Yes you can wear your highest Cadet Award/Achievement ribbon as a Senior and yes you can not wear any military ribbons on the aviator shirt. This includes the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award ribbon CAP was awarded several years ago.

Fanning Flames here... but... I still say that is a silly and ill-conceived regulation. I'd call it stupid, but I'm trying to be nicer in my old age.

People like to say "you can't wear military decorations on civilian clothing", which the CAP Corporate Uniforms are, but this is not true. If you think this true, please local the Military Regulation or Federal Law that states that and post it here.

What you will find, in the Regulations, regardless of Branch of Service, is the proper wear of Decorations on civilian clothing at formal events (i.e. Morning Dress and White Tie) and on business attire when attending military and Veterans events (i.e. Memorial Day Services, Military Funeral, etc.).

There are numerous civilian organizations... Police, Fire, EMS, EMA, VSO... that authorize the wear of Military Decorations on their "civilian" uniforms, you never see the Air Force filing suit or sending a "strongly worded letter" to these organizations directing them to stop; but for some reason, CAP gets held to a higher standard and we cannot.

All this rule does is hinder recruiting and retention of prior service Senior Members, who for one reason or another, cannot wear an USAF-style uniform, and are denied the ability to take pride in their former military service on their current CAP "civilian" uniform and lets not mention all the CAP members from 01OCT2012 - 31AUG2016 who earned the AFOEA and cannot wear a decoration, earned for CAP Service, on a CAP "civilian" uniform.

Again Silly and Ill-conceived.

I'm waiting for the day a MOH Awardee joins CAP and can't an USAF-style uniform, but Federal Law and Regulation states he/she may wear the MOH on "Appropriate Civilian Attire" and at "their pleasure".

[Shuman 14]

ARMED FORCES RIBBONS AND EMBLEMS
LAPD officers that are military veterans are highly encouraged to wear their military ribbons on their LAPD uniform. LAPD authorizes military and LAPD ribbons to be worn on our LAPD class A uniform during authorized events and inspections.

Join the Los Angeles Police Department



LAPD Video

[PHall]

Yes you can wear your highest Cadet Award/Achievement ribbon as a Senior and yes you can not wear any military ribbons on the aviator shirt. This includes the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award ribbon CAP was awarded several years ago.

Fanning Flames here... but... I still say that is a silly and ill-conceived regulation. I'd call it stupid, but I'm trying to be nicer in my old age.

People like to say "you can't wear military decorations on civilian clothing", which the CAP Corporate Uniforms are, but this is not true. If you think this true, please local the Military Regulation or Federal Law that states that and post it here.

What you will find, in the Regulations, regardless of Branch of Service, is the proper wear of Decorations on civilian clothing at formal events (i.e. Morning Dress and White Tie) and on business attire when attending military and Veterans events (i.e. Memorial Day Services, Military Funeral, etc.).

There are numerous civilian organizations... Police, Fire, EMS, EMA, VSO... that authorize the wear of Military Decorations on their "civilian" uniforms, you never see the Air Force filing suit or sending a "strongly worded letter" to these organizations directing them to stop; but for some reason, CAP gets held to a higher standard and we cannot.

All this rule does is hinder recruiting and retention of prior service Senior Members, who for one reason or another, cannot wear an USAF-style uniform, and are denied the ability to take pride in their former military service on their current CAP "civilian" uniform and lets not mention all the CAP members from 01OCT2012 - 31AUG2016 who earned the AFOEA and cannot wear a decoration, earned for CAP Service, on a CAP "civilian" uniform.

Again Silly and Ill-conceived.

I'm waiting for the day a MOH Awardee joins CAP and can't an USAF-style uniform, but Federal Law and Regulation states he/she may wear the MOH on "Appropriate Civilian Attire" and at "their pleasure".

Silly and ill conceived it may be but that's the rules. Maybe you're better at changing the Air Force's mind then the rest of us are. Have at it sir. We'll await the news of your success!

[baronet68]

So, to get this straight, I was a Cadet MANY years ago and earned my Mitchell.  So, as a Senior Member, I can wear that ribbon?

You can also wear any activity/service ribbons (e.g. encampment, red service, IACE, etc.) earned as a cadet that are still on today's senior precedence list.

The McChord Rack Builder shows them all.

[Shuman 14]

Silly and ill conceived it may be but that's the rules. Maybe you're better at changing the Air Force's mind then the rest of us are. Have at it sir. We'll await the news of your success!

At least you agree it is silly and ill-conceived.

The real question is, has anyone tried to change the USAF's mind?

When was that regulation put in place? Did anyone at the time question it or express concern? Was it ever suggested again?

Like OCPs and other uniform issues, are they ever re-addressed, or is it the "that's what we've always done" response to most things in CAP.

Yes there are more pressing things in CAP, I'll throw out updating the GTM/UDF qualification standards as one, but that doesn't mean we can't work on several things at once.

Every year we hold a CAP uniform board, do the minutes, rejections and recommendations get forwarded to the USAF for review? Do they (USAF) ever respond?

I understand there were problems in "the past", I know the history of the USAF fixing those problems (i.e. Berry Boards, Pineda's Airliner uniform ensembles, black boots, etc.) but those incidents were how many years ago? "Testingate Tony" got fired in October of 2007, over FORTEEN YEARS ago, so are the USAF Leadership that had issue with his ensembles even still in the Service today?

These are fair questions to ask. Is it really a big deal to the Air Force (today) if a Vietnam Veteran wears his CIB on CAP white shirt or BBDUs? If it is, can they (USAF) explain why it is?

I like to rock the boat. That's probably why I'll never see full Colonel in the Army before I retire and the same reason no one in CAP will ever let me have a CC beyond squadron level.

If I was appointed to the CAP National Uniform Board, I'd rock the boat like an iceberg hitting the Titanic. I don't think they (CAP leadership and/or the USAF) would like that.

That being said, feel free to nominate me, if you're that high enough in CAP to do it. I'll gladly serve in the position to the best of my ability.

[PHall]

Saying that stuff here to us minions is nice, but it won't change anything.
Now if you were able to convince the two people who can make a difference, the National Commander and the Commander CAP-USAF, you might make some progress. Like I said, we await word of your success.

[etodd]

Its great to have this "Uniforms & Awards" forum online. None of the "minions" really have any real say or input.  But this forum gives everyone a place to pontificate their ideas, and to also vent their frustrations. Just spinning wheels, but everyone needs to relieve their angst somewhere.

Meaningless on the one hand, but psychologically helpful.  A good thing.

[Shuman 14]

Saying that stuff here to us minions is nice, but it won't change anything.
Now if you were able to convince the two people who can make a difference, the National Commander and the Commander CAP-USAF, you might make some progress. Like I said, we await word of your success.

Translation: You are unwilling to help me.

Thanks for being part of the problem.

[Shuman 14]

Its great to have this "Uniforms & Awards" forum online. None of the "minions" really have any real say or input.  But this forum gives everyone a place to pontificate their ideas, and to also vent their frustrations. Just spinning wheels, but everyone needs to relieve their angst somewhere.

Meaningless on the one hand, but psychologically helpful.  A good thing.

And this is the heart of the problem. In the Army I know how to send recommendations to the Army Uniform Board. As a USCGAux member, I can send recommendations to the Coast Guard Uniform Board.

At the very least you normally get an automated email response saying whatever you sent was received.

Not so much in CAP.

Up the chain here means some good old boy curmudgeon at Group, Wing or Region can yank any idea "they" don't like before it ever reaches a National Uniform Board.

All CC's are supposed to have an open door policy, yet I can find nowhere online a way to directly contact the CAP National CC to utilize that policy.

As to the CAP-USAF Commander, Col Wootan was easy enough to find in the DOD White Pages, no business phone listed but his email is there for those who have access.

I just wish there was a way to directly contact the National Uniform Board. If the way does exist, it should be much more common knowledge. It should not be operating in a vacuum and it should be accepting input from the membership at large.

[Ned]

The process to recommend changes to the uniform is pretty clearly laid out in Chapter 13 of the 39-1.

Direct contact with the NUC by members is not part of the process.

Speaking as a former member of the NUC, that is a Good Thing.

"Use the system, Luke"

[Pinecone]

Fanning Flames here... but... I still say that is a silly and ill-conceived regulation. I'd call it stupid, but I'm trying to be nicer in my old age.

What you will find, in the Regulations, regardless of Branch of Service, is the proper wear of Decorations on civilian clothing at formal events (i.e. Morning Dress and White Tie) and on business attire when attending military and Veterans events (i.e. Memorial Day Services, Military Funeral, etc.).

All this rule does is hinder recruiting and retention of prior service Senior Members, who for one reason or another, cannot wear an USAF-style uniform, and are denied the ability to take pride in their former military service on their current CAP "civilian" uniform and lets not mention all the CAP members from 01OCT2012 - 31AUG2016 who earned the AFOEA and cannot wear a decoration, earned for CAP Service, on a CAP "civilian" uniform.

Again Silly and Ill-conceived.

Agreed.

I earned my USAF wings, but cannot wear them on anything except USAF type uniforms.  Not even a flight suit.

Sorry, but earning those wings is a MUCH bigger accomplishment that earning my CAP wings.

And yes, depending on the event, I do wear them on a civilian suit.  No, not big ones, but miniature lapel ones.

[Jester]

The biggest problem I see with the various thin ribbon makers is that they want to put the AFEOA in its military order of precedence, and not CAPs.

If that is your only military award, it's not an issue, their rack builders will load on top of all CAP ribbons, but for those of us who are former/current military, the builders want to put it elsewhere.

You have to call/email them directly and they can manually add it in the correct order.

Also, the rack builders don't seem to have the Crisis Service Award programmed in yet. 

The trick is to throw some other ribbon that would be in the CAP-correct spot for that ribbon, then specify in the order remarks that it's basically a spacer/placeholder and request it be replaced with the AFOEA. 

Also helps you get a better handle on the layout if you're staggering them, going 4-wide, etc.

I have to do this with the AFOEA and the NDOSM since Ultra-Thin won't let that one be selected when using CAP order of precedence.

[Shuman 14]

NDOSM

Huh?

Do you mean a National Defense Service Medal (NDSM), or is a NDOSM something else?

[Shuman 14]

The process to recommend changes to the uniform is pretty clearly laid out in Chapter 13 of the 39-1.

Direct contact with the NUC by members is not part of the process.

Speaking as a former member of the NUC, that is a Good Thing.

"Use the system, Luke"

CHAPTER 13 – UNIFORM POLICY

13.1. Supplements. Supplements to this regulation may be established at the Region or Wing echelons and
apply to all individuals aligned under those echelons. Supplements below Wing level are not authorized.
Supplements will be coordinated with higher headquarters in accordance with CAPR 1-2, Publications
Management. All supplements approved by CAP/DP will be posted on the CAP website.

13.2. Uniform Change Submission Process.

13.2.1. Step 1 – Submission. Recommendations for changes to the uniform are submitted
through the Chain of Command to CAP/DP. Recommendations should be submitted in memorandum
format. Supporting documentation, to include photos of proposed changes, or proposed language, should
be included in the memorandum as an attachment.

13.2.2. Step 2 – Review by Chain of Command. Recommendations for change will be routed
to the echelon commander of the proposer's unit of assignment. Each commander in the member's chain
of command (unit, group, wing, and region as appropriate) must concur for the recommendation to be
advanced to the next level with the region-level concurrence sent to CAP/DP. Commanders of units at the
National level (NHQ-NHQ-XXX) will process requests directly to CAP/DP. Recommendations may be
returned with requests for information.

13.2.3. Step 3 – Review by the National Uniform Committee. CAP/DP will send the request
for change, as endorsed by the chain of command to the Chair of the NUC. The Chair will send the change
to the committee for review, comment, and a vote on the recommendation (approximately a 30-day
timeline). This is the appropriate step to get feedback from CAP-USAF/CC or their designee.

13.2.4. Step 4 – Initial Review by CAP/CC. Following review by the NUC, the Chair
forwards the change submission and the NUC's recommendation through the National Executive Officer
to CAP/CC .

13.2.5. Step 5 – Membership Feedback. If CAP/CC agrees to consider the requested change,
the proposed change may be posted on the NHQ website, in the appropriate e-Service module, to receive
feedback from the Command Council for approximately 30 days.

13.2.6. If CAP/CC does not agree to consider the requested change, the submitter, and their
chain of command will be notified by memo of the decision.

13.2.7. Step 6 – Comment Review. Comments as received are collected and collated by
CAP/DP and the NUC Chair, and a final recommendation made to CAP/CC based on feedback.
13.2.8. Step 7 – Final CAP/CC Review. CAP/CC will either accept the original suggestion,
accept an amended suggestion, or deny the request.

13.2.9. If the suggestion is denied, the submitter, and their chain of command may be notified
by memo of the decision.

13.2.10.If the suggestion is accepted by CAP/CC in its original or a modified form and does
not require USAF approval, it will be forwarded to CAP/DP for implementation into this regulation and
the chain of command will be notified.

13.2.11.If the suggestion is accepted by CAP/CC in its original or a modified form and does
require USAF approval, the item will be forwarded to CAP-USAF for their review and approval. Upon a
reply of determination from CAP-USAF, the procedures in paragraphs 13.2.9 (denial) or 13.2.10
(acceptance) will be followed.

MARK E. SMITH
Major General, CAP
Commander

And as I pointed out, Step Two above, allows for anyone in the Chain of Command to use their personal preferences (and personnel dislikes) to a reasonable recommendation, to make it go away.

It's a suggestion box connected to a shredder.

That's not how military Uniform Boards work, they allow for general input. CAP does not. That's a good old boy system that does the membership a disservice.

It's not a "Good Thing", it's very bad, especially in a volunteer organization.

I fully understand that it would create much more work for the NUC to have to go through many more submissions than in the past but then you shouldn't accept the position if you are not willing to accept the duties and responsibilities (and work) that comes with it.

NED I respect you, I respect your years of Service in CAP and I respect the levels of responsibility you rose to in CAP... I hope you can see/read this and know I'm not attacking you.

I'm trying to attack a system that really doesn't work, that promotes the status quo and stifles change and only allow for consensus by the senior leadership (i.e. the good old boys).

A simple fix would be all recommendations to go through the chain of command, with a "Concur" or "Non-Concur" at each level of Command but allows for all submitted recommendations to reach the NUC and then based on their review, go back down the chain to the submitter as outline in Step Seven above. At least then when a member takes the time to write up a properly formatted memorandum and a plan with the supporting documents... it doesn't disappear because someone at [[Insert level of command here]] doesn't like you.

Thank you for letting me rant.

[Jester]

NDOSM

Huh?

Do you mean a National Defense Service Medal (NDSM), or is a NDOSM something else?

Nuclear Deterrence Operations Service Medal

[Capt Thompson]

Yes you can wear your highest Cadet Award/Achievement ribbon as a Senior and yes you can not wear any military ribbons on the aviator shirt. This includes the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award ribbon CAP was awarded several years ago.

Fanning Flames here... but... I still say that is a silly and ill-conceived regulation. I'd call it stupid, but I'm trying to be nicer in my old age.

People like to say "you can't wear military decorations on civilian clothing", which the CAP Corporate Uniforms are, but this is not true. If you think this true, please local the Military Regulation or Federal Law that states that and post it here.

What you will find, in the Regulations, regardless of Branch of Service, is the proper wear of Decorations on civilian clothing at formal events (i.e. Morning Dress and White Tie) and on business attire when attending military and Veterans events (i.e. Memorial Day Services, Military Funeral, etc.).

There are numerous civilian organizations... Police, Fire, EMS, EMA, VSO... that authorize the wear of Military Decorations on their "civilian" uniforms, you never see the Air Force filing suit or sending a "strongly worded letter" to these organizations directing them to stop; but for some reason, CAP gets held to a higher standard and we cannot.

All this rule does is hinder recruiting and retention of prior service Senior Members, who for one reason or another, cannot wear an USAF-style uniform, and are denied the ability to take pride in their former military service on their current CAP "civilian" uniform and lets not mention all the CAP members from 01OCT2012 - 31AUG2016 who earned the AFOEA and cannot wear a decoration, earned for CAP Service, on a CAP "civilian" uniform.

Again Silly and Ill-conceived.

I'm waiting for the day a MOH Awardee joins CAP and can't an USAF-style uniform, but Federal Law and Regulation states he/she may wear the MOH on "Appropriate Civilian Attire" and at "their pleasure".

I wonder if there are any statistics kept by the R&R folks, perhaps NIN can chime in if there are, but in my years with CAP I don't recall hearing a single person say they are quitting because they can't wear a ribbon they earned 30 years prior on their CAP whites. You keep referring to this as a problem, but I would be willing to bet if there are statistics kept on this, they would point in the opposite direction. Most people wear their CAP stuff on their CAP uniform, and there are plenty of chances in CAP to earn bling without having to dig in the closet and pull pins from an old Army uniform to jazz up your whites a bit.

Do I respect the fact that you earned a CIB? 100%. Am I worried you might quit the program if you can't wear it on your whites? If that's what's motivating you to stay, you're holding on by a thread (or a badge, ribbon, etc) anyway, and probably aren't long for this program.

[heliodoc]

I am in agreement with LTC Clune in his responses. I didn't join CAP for the bling  or the uniform. As former E6 in the RM, this organizations NUC needs a complete overhaul, if not, some better oversight. Not sure if i buy all the "its the AF" thing. But CAP leadership needs some real statistics and tracking of many of its reasons that it doesn't seem to accept submittal from the field....I got better answers from the Army filling out 2028-2 for changes to the UH1 T53 engine manual

[Shuman 14]

NDOSM

Huh?

Do you mean a National Defense Service Medal (NDSM), or is a NDOSM something else?

Nuclear Deterrence Operations Service Medal

Roger that. Thanks for the clarification.

[Shuman 14]

I am in agreement with LTC Clune in his responses. I didn't join CAP for the bling  or the uniform. As former E6 in the RM, this organizations NUC needs a complete overhaul, if not, some better oversight. Not sure if i buy all the "its the AF" thing. But CAP leadership needs some real statistics and tracking of many of its reasons that it doesn't seem to accept submittal from the field....I got better answers from the Army filling out 2028-2 for changes to the UH1 T53 engine manual

Thanks Brother.

[etodd]

What percentage of CAP members as a whole, participate in this Uniform Forum on CAPTalk? Just based on the number of threads here, and you multiply it out by total membership percentages... if the NC accepted submissions from the field, they might get hundreds of emails daily. Several thousand a month. With each being a different viewpoint. Just not enough manpower to even begin to tabulate all that. Just here in CAPTalk the ideas are all over the place.

Now I'll shutup since you all know me as the polo uniform guy. Life is much simpler this way.