Seimac ProFIND DF-500P

[Eclipse]

I was recently issued a Seimac ProFIND DF-500P:



It looks hardcore, feels tough as nails (especially in comparison to an L-Per), comes in a Pelican case, is rechargeable, can runs off external power, and includes a very nice practice beacon.  I should be able to leap tall beacons in a single bound with this thing.

One problem.

It doesn't appear to work.  Sure it fires up, receives a signal and makes noise and blinky lights, but that's about it.  The directionals don't correspond to where the beacon is, nor does signal strength seem to correspond to location.

Anyone else had a similar experience? I am hoping for some magic switch or calibration we've been missing, otherwise I'll
have to look into returning this to Seimac for check-out.

[_]

I've been told that it doesn't work like the l-per in df mode.  Apparently you have to get to where it indicates full deflection left/right and then the beacon is off to your left/right.  I may be completely wrong, I tried using it once and thought it was piece of junk so haven't used it since.  I'd much rather use a sniffer.

[Eclipse]

Yes, that's how its supposed to work, but no matter where the beacon is, it always indicates right, and not in any kind of authoritative way. 

There's also no receive mode, so assuming it ever works, I'm not sure how effective it would be from longer distances.

[♠SARKID♠]

Personally, I don't trust anything with four rubber ducks - thats like a direction finding Hydra(+1) and should be slain in a valiant manner.

[Eclipse]

I've been poking at it with a stick tonight, and try as I might I can't get it to work right.

I charged the battery off the external belt pack battery (cool), so I know its at full charge, and the practice beacon has plenty of juice and signal.

It receives the audio fine, even indicating signal stregnth fairly accurately, though not with the granularity of an L=Per's VU-type meter.  It looks to me as though its doing some software "considering" before it'll show a change on the strength display.

But try as I might, the directionals just don't seem to work.  It always shows 1 blip right even when the beacon is direct left.

I've tried walking away form the beacon, disconnecting antenna leads, nothing.

Right now its an expesive 6-channel scanner. 

[♠SARKID♠]

Can you request to get issued something else?

[Eclipse]

I've already got a regular L-Per that works fine, but I'm short one for my units who are active in ES, and since this was collecting dust because of its inability to do anything but receive the signal, I asked the DC to let me play with it.

Barring some magic fix from someone here, I'll contact Seimac on Monday and see about having it serviced.

I was kind of hoping for some hidden reset button, or "hey, the antenna on all those comes loose" kind of deal to make me a hero (and the others who tried sorry they gave it up).   

[RADIOMAN015]

Funny, we had a unit also which we gave back to Wing.  Our Squadron ES officer (12+ years ES experience, NESA instructor) told me it didn't work. I also tried it, and it only showed an indication off the Right antennas even when I knew the signal source was to my left.  Don't know IF we were missing something from when we read the instructions, BUT he had no intentions of keeping equpment & maintaining acountability for that piece of equipment we would NEVER use on a mission.  HOWEVER, the ELT simulator with the unit is great because it takes readily available AA batteries!!! 

[Eclipse]

Yes, the beacon is actually really sweet, I'd post a pic, but seimac is using Flash for some reason to rotate it.   

Link here:  http://seimac.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=51

[JoeTomasone]

You might want to try an MK4:  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=5048.0

[SJFedor]

Nah man, our Group has one of those too, and I hate it. I had a known LOS on the beacon from maybe 3/4 of a mile, and it wouldn't pick up anything.

It's an expensive paperweight.

[JoeTomasone]

I (highly) beg to differ (and suspect you might have had weak batteries, it will get deaf with weak batteries), or suggest that you got a bad unit.    My MK4 picks up signals before the old AND new L-Pers -- and I'm talking by .5 miles average.  We've had nothing but success with it, and are working on the particulars to make a proposal that we adopt it Wing-wide as opposed to the L-Per.

[Eclipse]

OK, maybe missing the point is a symptom of this board.

I have an L-Per, and am not looking for suggestions on something else, I was hoping to find a magic "work" button on this 500P.

I sent an email to Seimac support this morning and already received an RMA number and expect to get a return shipper next week.  Considering this is a holiday, that't pretty impressive.  The support guy said it sounded like it needed to come back, now it will.

I'll let everyone know how this goes. Knowing how things go, Seimac will probably fix the thing and it'll turn into the sliced-bread generator it should be and Wing will want it back.  

[KyCAP]

Eclipse,

Do post results, I would be curious.   Same "sketchy" experience here with Seimac.   Might have another to return.

[Eclipse]

I'm hopeful, I can't imagine something this expensive and ruggedly built literally wouldn't work.

[KyCAP]

I swear I handed one to three members with a total of 60 years worth of DF experience between them and it's hit or miss with this thing... Always points Right... 

[DH]

We have 3 in our Wing that we have had a fair amount of success with. One unit prefers it to anything they've used. It works well for me but then I still "like" the old L-Per more. (By the way the new L-Per seems to be more like this one) Most of my unit likes the Tracker best of all we have used.

We did have to return 1 for repair. It had worked then suddenly would not receive, give any indications, or sound. Took a while but we got it back and it seems to be working fine.

As far as using the thing. - Forget you ever knew an L-Per. Totally different animal. Think more along the line of the tracker. It uses internal sensors to adjust sensitivity and direction indications so the only thing you can really adjust is the volume.

Procedure we use, and yes I know it sounds silly but it seems to work:
1. Turn on the unit, check frequency and adjust sound.
2. Turn around (360 degrees) 2 or 3 times to let the unit detect and adjust to the signal.
3. Assuming you can hear the ELT. If you have an indication ignore it for now. Pick a direction, doesn't matter which, and walk about 20 feet. Watch the indicator. Reverse course and walk about 20 feet. Again, watch the indicator (left and right). Turn 90 degrees from the original course and repeat the process. Determine which course gave you the best (strongest) indication on the left/right arrows. If in this process you alway show to the right and always the same level, I'd suspect the unit is broke.
4. Using the process in the last step, after determining which direction gave the best indication on the left right arrow, begin moving in that direction. The vertical indicator should be toward the bottom of the scale. If you are moving in the correct direction toward the target, the indicator should begin to move up the scale. When the vertical indicator is at the highest level, you should be able to see the target. You really need to be at least a few yards away when you start the process or it probably will not desense enough to give an accurate fix.
5. After proceeding in the direction of the target. repeat step 3. Turn 90 degrees from course and walk a few feet then reverse the course and do the same. You will have to continue to do this from time to time as you get closer to make sure you are moving in the right direction. Continue to watch the vertical bar, if is starts going down, you're probably moving away from the target.

The unit seems to start out with very high sensitivity and corrects as you get closer to the target. If you are very close to the target when you turn it on, it may not desense enough to give an accurate initial reading.

Hope this helps a little.

[Eclipse]

I appreciate the detail, but unfortunately ours is just busted.

I'm working right now with Cobham (Seimac's parent co) on the RMA issues.  They want me to pay for shipping it back to Canada, and I'm not excited about having to pay for this considering it never worked (the fact that many hands before me just poked at it and put it away not withstanding).

[Major Lord]

My brief experience with the Profind was disappointing. This is not really surprising, given that the antennas are very lossy, and too close together to provide good bearing resolution. It is probably best suited for use a man-overboard locater on the open ocean. As a terrestrial direction finder, its seemed worthless. Handy, cute, rugged, and worthless....

Comparing the Australian unit (the MK4) to the the Seimac is apples to oranges. One is a switched antenna direction finding system. Switching the antennas back and forth at high speed results in antennas that are never fully "on"., and with unity gain or worse antennas, its not going to perform well. (There is a reason the L-Per has such a big antenna array-its the right thing to do!)

The MK4 is basically a receiver with a signal strength meter and a directional antenna. The antenna provides reception capabilities far in excess of the zero gain antennas used in the Seimac. The receiver has higher sensitivity, and does not suffer losses from using the switched antenna, phase shift method of direction finding. Another positive feature is that there is no directional ambiguity. I don't believe that the unit is FCC approved, since basically it is a hacked ham radio product. With the Diamond MAY 1000 antenna, it can do RFD over a wide range of frequencies, which can be pretty handy. DF'ing with Yagi antennas does not provide the high bearing resolution possible with a switched antenna system, but its simple and works at greater ranges and does not require extensive training and experience to do a fairly good job with.

Major Lord

[BigMojo]

I (highly) beg to differ (and suspect you might have had weak batteries, it will get deaf with weak batteries), or suggest that you got a bad unit.    My MK4 picks up signals before the old AND new L-Pers -- and I'm talking by .5 miles average.  We've had nothing but success with it, and are working on the particulars to make a proposal that we adopt it Wing-wide as opposed to the L-Per.

I'll second that...

We had an ELT that someone was shipping for repair that was going off inside a UPS 51' Semi Trailer this weekend. We're talking reflection hell. I pinpointed the side of the trailer it was on, and how far in. Then it was just a matter of running it over the boxes in the area, and using it kinda like a metal detector. The L-per we had out there, was all kinds of confused. I love my Sniffer and won't use anything else if I have the choice.

[Eclipse]

OK, finally an update (of sorts).

After literally a month of email tag regarding who was going to pay for shipping it back to Nova Scotia, I finally called them
yesterday and spoke to the head of RMA and she gave me their Fed Ex account number.

It went out this afternoon, and should be in Canada on Friday.

The next post, I hope, will be how awesome it works when I get it back.

[Eclipse]

Sooooo.....

After all the above (and more external from CT), I finally got it back last week - it showed up on Tuesday at 1030, and I had an actual I could use it on that night, so pretty good from a testing perspective.

While its now repaired and appears fully functional, I'm still disappointed, if only because my expectations were so high.

The issue was a $5 switch that needed to be replaced.  At first, Corbham wanted me to pay for the part, labor, and return shipping to the tune of about $120.  I pointed out that this had been a DOA failure and we should not have to pay for their labor, but since we had sat on this for two years (their records indicate it was delivered in 2006!), it was reasonable to pay for the parts and shipping ($40).

I checked with Wing, gave them my Credit Card and waited for it to come back.

They shipped it in just the Pelican case without a box or lock, which did not make me too happy, but whatever.  Also, upon arrival I found that it had not been repacked in the foam correctly and one of the plastic screws on the practice beacon had been bumping against the recharger and broke off.  Further, the beacon itself had not been reassembled correctly as at least one of the o-ring seals was pinched sideways instead of being seated around the screw.  Both minor customer service issues that I can fix for $1 at the hardware store.

Everything powered up ok, I took it all outside and tested it.

That's when the disappointment set in.

Assuming it is now working to factory spec, its simply not that great a device.

The short antennas limit its reception range to the mid-point of the search, and having no receive mode doesn't make it a more effective device, either.  Inside of 60ft its basically a radio scanner, and occasionally would reboot for no reason (i.e. too many quick presses of the volume controls).

It still has a predilection to indicate right, even when there is no signal to find, and it has a weird growl when you're right on top of the beacon, different from what you would expect from an L-Per.

That night we had two standard L-Pers, the Pro-Find, and my vehicle mounted scanner.  The Pro-Find got us to the same place as the L-Per's, but not with what I would quantify as "confidence".  It reached a certain level of signal strength, and then from there topped out no matter how close we were to the ELT.

So it "works", I guess, but considering it was over $1200 when purchased, I was expecting it to do "more" - at least in as much as being more definite in its indications.

As I said, this is basically a radio scanner with some directional arrows.

If you have a DOA one sitting on the shelf, you should probably have it fixed, if only from the "good steward  of CAP resources standpoint", and having another set of directional eyes in a search isn't a bad thing, however, given the choice I'll probably still reach for the trusty Kennedy-Era L-Per first.

[RADIOMAN015]

Does anyone know the history as to why CAP purchased this unit as opposed to the new L-Tronics equipment that is made by a US firm?

We also had this DF equipment in our unit.  Experienced ES personnel as well as me as the inexperienced didn't think the unit worked right  -- it was sent back to wing per their request.  I do agree with others that the older LTronics gear does seem to be the best.

As an alternatively  personally, I'm looking at taking my Icom R2 & construcing a simple tape measure antenna & than having our ES officer hide the ELT simulator and we will have a competition with both the new & older LTronics gear, as well as my home spun alternative.

RADiOMAN  015       

[RiverAux]

"CAP" doesn't buy DF equipment that I've ever heard of in recent times.  Individual units or wings are totally on their own for this stuff.  Evidently its more important to have lots of brand new radios around so that we can talk to each other about our crappy 20-year old Lper....

[Eclipse]

"CAP" doesn't buy DF equipment that I've ever heard of in recent times.  Individual units or wings are totally on their own for this stuff.

I don't believe that is correct in this case.  To my understanding this was issued to my Wing in 2006.

[wingnut55]

I recall that NHQ had announced that funding for DF equipment was in the planning. It is unconscionable to think that CAP members must spend THEIR PERSONAL MONEY to purchase equipment to find an ELT. THIS MUST CHANGE, maybe one or two NHQ staff need to go to pay for the Equipment, or maybe we buy one less airplane each year. At any rate we are in dire need of DF Units in California, many Squadrons don't have one for the Ground units.

[SarDragon]

OTOH, I know of at least one unit that has a unit funded L-Per that NEVER gets used for actual missions. It gets pulled out of the case once in a while for "cadet training", and I'm not sure there's even anyone in the unit that's ES qualified.

[edit] I just checked -  there isn't. And, it's now a cadet squadron, instead of a composite squadron.

[wingnut55]

OK

what does OTOH mean??

[Eclipse]

On The Other Hand.

[RiverAux]

I recall that NHQ had announced that funding for DF equipment was in the planning. It is unconscionable to think that CAP members must spend THEIR PERSONAL MONEY to purchase equipment to find an ELT. THIS MUST CHANGE, maybe one or two NHQ staff need to go to pay for the Equipment, or maybe we buy one less airplane each year. At any rate we are in dire need of DF Units in California, many Squadrons don't have one for the Ground units.

I know of few people that have spent their own money on their own personal DF equipment.  More commonly the squadron buys them with their funds or in some cases the Wing buys them. 

[Eclipse]

Sadly I know of too many as well - this should be like radios with at least one unit per squadron.

[KyCAP]

Just interjceting some comments.

OPERATIONS at NHQ purchased the SEIMAC units on a limited number for each Wing in 2006.   For example, Ky has 2.   Those were the first DF equipment pieces that were purchased in over a decade in common knowledge (and CEMS) to Ky knowledge.  I think that their intent was for field research honestly.  We're not quite impressed with them either which agrees with the anecdotal information that everyone else has expressed.

Some units that DO purchase their own and have these units could be the units like were mentioned that could be on the downside of their "recruiting cycle".   It is unlikely that the WING would ask a locally funded piece of equipment to be MOVED to another unit.   They paid for it.   I wouldn't move it for the record.   If it were DoD, CAP, or grant monies and ISSUED to a unit then it is on my RADAR in our wing to get moved to a unit with active ES resources.

I am not certain if Direction Finding equipment is even in the Table of Allowances off of the top of my head.   If you EVER want to lobby for funding then their going to need to be in there to get USAF monies spent on them. 

It would be nice to get a committment or PLAN from NHQ whether they are going to fund these or not so that we can get an idea on whether we should purchase them ourselves soon or not...  WE are in DIRE need of having these things updated and refreshed.      Last year I sent every one of our units back to L-Tronics to have the antenna arrays and receivers repaired, tested and calibrated.   I also purchased and replaced the rifle cases to store them in after repair because the ones that we had were destroyed after years of use.    Storing this stuff is KEY.

[Eclipse]

What's sad is all the radio equipment sitting in Wing DC offices that can't be issued because no one in the wing meets the TOA, while units with plenty of comm gear are desperate for an L-Per.

Every EFJ mobile still sitting somewhere in an unopened box is 3-4 of the brand new L-Pers.   

[KyCAP]

Rest peacefully knowing that only a handful of line replacements are in KY Wings "closet" and the gear is issued to the units.   And more accurately, one EF Johnson mobile is about 1.5 L-PERs properly equipped based on the last one that I purchased.

[Eclipse]

Yes, thankfully some wings are better than others on this.

Even 1.5 per is too many.

I was basing my assumption on what I was told on the loss value - $2500 for the mobiles and $1800 for the Ht's (which is why we call the HT's the "mortgage payment").

[JoeTomasone]

OPERATIONS at NHQ purchased the SEIMAC units on a limited number for each Wing in 2006.   For example, Ky has 2.   Those were the first DF equipment pieces that were purchased in over a decade in common knowledge (and CEMS) to Ky knowledge.  I think that their intent was for field research honestly.  We're not quite impressed with them either which agrees with the anecdotal information that everyone else has expressed.

We did a head to head comparison between the Seimac, Old and New L-Per, and the MK4 Sniffer.   Several of us in various Groups here in FL Wing are recommending that the MK4 Sniffer be adopted as the standard for any purchases made by the Wing going forward based on both performance and price.   For every L-Per, you can get 3 MK4's.   They are easy to afford items for those units that want to fund raise to buy them or for an individual who doesn't have a "mortgage payment" to spare...

[jimmydeanno]

OPERATIONS at NHQ purchased the SEIMAC units on a limited number for each Wing in 2006.   For example, Ky has 2.   Those were the first DF equipment pieces that were purchased in over a decade in common knowledge (and CEMS) to Ky knowledge.  I think that their intent was for field research honestly.  We're not quite impressed with them either which agrees with the anecdotal information that everyone else has expressed.

We did a head to head comparison between the Seimac, Old and New L-Per, and the MK4 Sniffer.   Several of us in various Groups here in FL Wing are recommending that the MK4 Sniffer be adopted as the standard for any purchases made by the Wing going forward based on both performance and price.   For every L-Per, you can get 3 MK4's.   They are easy to afford items for those units that want to fund raise to buy them or for an individual who doesn't have a "mortgage payment" to spare...

Sorry if this is off topic, but don't you have to make your own antennas and mounts for these?  I thought I read that on their website.  Wouldn't that be terribly impractical for the average unit?

[Eclipse]

^ Yes, and that was one of my objections to the device.  The whole "ham-fest project" aspect of it just seems so unprofessional.

We should be getting funds allocated to replace our old L-Pers w/ new ones, period, and not be reliant on members with soldering irons and broken tape measures.

[RiverAux]

Ham-fest?  Doesn't seem that complicated to buy an antenna separately from the instrument.... Heck, aren't we teaching cadets how to put together working rockets? 

[Eclipse]

Ham-fest?  Doesn't seem that complicated to buy an antenna separately from the instrument.... Heck, aren't we teaching cadets how to put together working rockets? 

Working rockets don't protect life and property.  DF gear does.

I want one throat to choke if it doesn't work.

[JoeTomasone]

^ Yes, and that was one of my objections to the device.  The whole "ham-fest project" aspect of it just seems so unprofessional.

Or "no".   

I use mine with a Diamond MAY-1000 antenna, BigMojo uses his with an Arrow beam - both commercial products.

[KyCAP]

Do they work better with the beam antenna than any L-tronics (new or old) with a beam attached to those (for relative comparison)?

[JoeTomasone]

Do they work better with the beam antenna than any L-tronics (new or old) with a beam attached to those (for relative comparison)?

Well, this is all covered in much detail in the MK4 threads, but yes - they do.   The main reason is that the MK4 converts the signal strength to an audible tone so that you can hear the difference in the strength as you sweep the beam side to side.   No needle to watch, so you are focusing on your bearing the entire time.   The Sniffer also has 9 self attenuating steps that automatically kick in as you get closer and closer - so no more sensitivity knob to twiddle.   I find myself more engaged with the surroundings visually and considering terrain and obstacles more than worrying about operating the unit. 

Further, the Sniffer is MUCH lighter and smaller than either L-Per -- making use, transport, and storage much easier.

I really can't say this any stronger -- I did extensive field tests with the old and new L-Per, the Seimac, and the Sniffer and the Sniffer won by every metric I could fathom with the one exception that it's tougher to obtain.  But once you have it and spend some time with it, you will assuredly wonder what took you so long to get it.

[BigMojo]

The only advantage I've seen in favor of the L-Per or Seimac is 243MHz ability. BUT I should hopefully have a 243 capable Sniffer in a couple weeks.

But, as I say to everyone, try all the ones you can, learn it's nuances, and become an expert on its use. All these units work, and "working better" is all in what you as a DF user consider important.

Joe and I preach the Gospel of the Sniffer (and again there is NO "ham project" involved), because it works for us and our needs.

[Eclipse]

So I asked to de-necro this thread since the Gods of Karma have seen fit to issue me another "No-find", and
I can report and confirm, it's still useless junk, which is the only reason it was available to issue to my unit in the first place.

I will say, however, it does make for nice "high-tech action shots", assuming the viewer doesn't know that the device isn't turned on.

It barely picks up a signal even in close proximity to a beacon, and at the highest volume you can barely hear it.

Interestingly I found an outfit called MetOcean still manufacturing a similar device for buoy and other marine location
that looks like the same case and a similar faceplate (inverse colors). NOVATECH™ DF-500N.
You can even grab one here:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Seimac-DF-500N-Hand-Held-Marine-Direction-Finder-Responds-to-Distress-Beacon-x-/331869664725

I didn't spend a lot of time looking into it, but it appears that Seimac and Novatech and MetOcean are all related companies.

With L-Tronics struggling and doing nothing right now but making a list of potential buyers (my gut is the likelihood of them
ever producing more cheeseblocks is very low, considering their primary customer's need is shrinking), I'm now in the
position of having little choice but to get an MK sniffer.

With commercial antennas it looks like it'll run us about $500, not bad compared to the $750 plus for a cheeseblock, but
still a fair piece of change.

We're stuck because we certainly can't get people spun up without something, and this seems to be the only reasonable game in town.

My wing still gets a fair number of ELT searches - this calendar year we've had a non-distress on "my" airport, as well as two
distress searches that wound up having fatalities, along with a handful of non-distress hunts. So DF is still a "thing" for us, just not as much as before.

It sure would be nice if acquiring the proper tools wasn't such a hassle.  I had an olde schoole L-Per in my kit for about 7 years
and rarely used it, now that I need one I can't get my hands on one.

[Holding Pattern]

So I asked to de-necro this thread since the Gods of Karma have seen fit to issue me another "No-find", and
I can report and confirm, it's still useless junk, which is the only reason it was available to issue to my unit in the first place.

I will say, however, it does make for nice "high-tech action shots", assuming the viewer doesn't know that the device isn't turned on.

It barely picks up a signal even in close proximity to a beacon, and at the highest volume you can barely hear it.

Interestingly I found an outfit called MetOcean still manufacturing a similar device for buoy and other marine location
that looks like the same case and a similar faceplate (inverse colors). NOVATECH™ DF-500N.
You can even grab one here:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Seimac-DF-500N-Hand-Held-Marine-Direction-Finder-Responds-to-Distress-Beacon-x-/331869664725

I didn't spend a lot of time looking into it, but it appears that Seimac and Novatech and MetOcean are all related companies.

With L-Tronics struggling and doing nothing right now but making a list of potential buyers (my gut is the likelihood of them
ever producing more cheeseblocks is very low, considering their primary customer's need is shrinking), I'm now in the
position of having little choice but to get an MK sniffer.

With commercial antennas it looks like it'll run us about $500, not bad compared to the $750 plus for a cheeseblock, but
still a fair piece of change.

We're stuck because we certainly can't get people spun up without something, and this seems to be the only reasonable game in town.

My wing still gets a fair number of ELT searches - this calendar year we've had a non-distress on "my" airport, as well as two
distress searches that wound up having fatalities, along with a handful of non-distress hunts. So DF is still a "thing" for us, just not as much as before.

It sure would be nice if acquiring the proper tools wasn't such a hassle.  I had an olde schoole L-Per in my kit for about 7 years
and rarely used it, now that I need one I can't get my hands on one.

Query: I'm unfamiliar with the regs, so can you tell me if there is an approved list for us to use of locators?

If I built something that cost say... $100 and did the job would it be acceptable?

[jeders]

Query: I'm unfamiliar with the regs, so can you tell me if there is an approved list for us to use of locators?

If I built something that cost say... $100 and did the job would it be acceptable?

No list, use whatever works. If you can MacGyver something for $100.00, then that's wonderful.

[Eclipse]

No list, use whatever works. If you can MacGyver something for $100.00, then that's wonderful.

Agreed, but it's gotta work and be reliable, at least for actuals.

This is one reason for my reticence about anything home-built, and / or tromping around an airport w/ pieces of measuring tape
stuck into PVC as an "antenna".  Foxhunting for fun is one thing, but the last thing I want to find myself doing is
sitting in a courtroom trying to explain to a civil attorney and / or jury how and why my garage kit failed to find
Uncle Charlie.

This is what is so frustrating in this regard - the lack of standardization and proper issuance of gear to field resources.
We've got piles of radios still sitting in boxes and shelves all over various wings, but getting a decent L-Per is like puling teeth,
harder now that they are all disco'ed.

I understand at one time every unit had at least one (in theory), but as they were lost or damaged they were not replaced.
If this is still a legit mission of CAP, then it should be treated as such.

[jeders]

No list, use whatever works. If you can MacGyver something for $100.00, then that's wonderful.

Agreed, but it's gotta work and be reliable, at least for actuals.

Obviously.

This is one reason for my reticence about anything home-built, and / or tromping around an airport w/ pieces of measuring tape
stuck into PVC as an "antenna".  Foxhunting for fun is one thing, but the last thing I want to find myself doing is
sitting in a courtroom trying to explain to a civil attorney and / or jury how and why my garage kit failed to find
Uncle Charlie.

I understand the reticence, but I've seen some of these PVC rigs work particularly well, as long as the operator knows how to use it effectively. Even a half way decent operator can make these options work to get you into the area. Then use an air band radio with body blocking to zero in.

I understand at one time every unit had at least one (in theory), but as they were lost or damaged they were not replaced.
If this is still a legit mission of CAP, then it should be treated as such.

Agreed.

[LTC Don]

This certainly doesn't bode well for us, but in poking around Google, I'm not seeing any vendors with current production DF equipment (at least certainly not at the affordable price range of Cheap>Free).  ACR seems to the happening vendor for transmitters, and they had some 'Vecta' branded DF equipment, and that's even been relegated to legacy status. 

Rockwell-Collins is making aviation equipment, but no handheld DF units.




Seems COSPAS-SARSAT with 406, and our very own cellphone forensics team is putting the handheld DF industry out of business.

[LTC Don]

This certainly doesn't bode well for us, but in poking around Google, I'm not seeing any vendors with current production DF equipment (at least certainly not at the affordable price range of Cheap>Free).  ACR seems to the happening vendor for transmitters, and they had some 'Vecta' branded DF equipment, and that's even been relegated to legacy status. 

Rockwell-Collins is making aviation equipment, but no handheld DF units.




Seems COSPAS-SARSAT with 406, and our very own cellphone forensics team is putting the handheld DF industry out of business.

Edit:
What, is this?
https://www.amazon.com/Hammerhead-Direction-Finder-beacons-121-5MHz/dp/B00CMD9856

[Eclipse]

https://www.amazon.com/Hammerhead-Direction-Finder-beacons-121-5MHz/dp/B00CMD9856

Why that's "the most exciting hand held radio direction finder that has ever come to market."
http://www.rffindingsystems.com/index.html



And it can't be used on land...

Why can't the Hammerhead be used on land?

The Hammerhead is designed for vertically polarized signals, which is pretty much guaranteed if the beacon is on water. That is the antenna should be pointed up in the sky. When a beacon is on land, the antenna may be horizontal to the ground or even pointed upside down. In such situation, the directional indictor may not be valid.

The range can be severely limited due to non line-of-sight operation as hills or other obstacles can absorb the signal. In other cases when the signal is reflected, the direction may indicate the reflected direction not the actual beacon direction.

An advanced/expert user may be able to use the product on land, but due to the complexity and skill involved, the Hammerhead is not sold for direction finding on land.

[LTC Don]

It's certainly not a handheld unit, but has anyone worked with one of these?

http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-5005

[LTC Don]

My Google-foo isn't that great so I'm just not seeing much out there in handheld df land. 

http://www.fsems.com/sar.html   Anyone ever seen one of these?

[Eclipse]

There isn't much, that's the problem.

There's actually an L-Per, in original case, on eBay right now, however I don't need another thing on the pile that
I should "buy assuming it needs repair"

http://www.ebay.com/itm/L-Tronics-Radio-Direction-Finder-121-5-MHz-EPIRB-ELT-finder-/272288405560



It's tempting...

[Eclipse]

My Google-foo isn't that great so I'm just not seeing much out there in handheld df land. 

http://www.fsems.com/sar.html   Anyone ever seen one of these?

heh...

Our old friends at TS

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7632.msg140059#msg140059

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=12361.msg225813#msg225813

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7314.msg135642#msg135642

[LTC Don]

https://www.amazon.com/Hammerhead-Direction-Finder-beacons-121-5MHz/dp/B00CMD9856

Why that's "the most exciting hand held radio direction finder that has ever come to market."
http://www.rffindingsystems.com/index.html



And it can't be used on land...

Why can't the Hammerhead be used on land?

The Hammerhead is designed for vertically polarized signals, which is pretty much guaranteed if the beacon is on water. That is the antenna should be pointed up in the sky. When a beacon is on land, the antenna may be horizontal to the ground or even pointed upside down. In such situation, the directional indictor may not be valid.

The range can be severely limited due to non line-of-sight operation as hills or other obstacles can absorb the signal. In other cases when the signal is reflected, the direction may indicate the reflected direction not the actual beacon direction.

An advanced/expert user may be able to use the product on land, but due to the complexity and skill involved, the Hammerhead is not sold for direction finding on land.

That statement is interesting considering they have a video posted showing how to use the thing on land (and on water).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4ujDcPAq9w

[Eclipse]

Maybe it's just not reliable enough to support life saving.

I'd bet that might be one factor why these companies are drying up, and the Foxhunters don't sell much on 121.5.

Nobody will (probably) sue you if you don't find a geocache.

[NC Hokie]

There's actually an L-Per, in original case, on eBay right now, however I don't need another thing on the pile that
I should "buy assuming it needs repair"

http://www.ebay.com/itm/L-Tronics-Radio-Direction-Finder-121-5-MHz-EPIRB-ELT-finder-/272288405560



It's tempting...

Don't do it if you can't afford to wait MONTHS for L-Tronics (which is, I think, some guy working out of his home) to even look at it.  I sent one in for service in late March and it STILL hasn't been looked at it yet.  I called a couple of weeks ago and was told, "It's here but it will be a while before I get to it."

[Eclipse]

The Vecta 2&3 Line was discoed, and the purported replacement is a 404 as well (see below):

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/sav21.html



I've actually seen these once in a while at SARExs but there they don't seem to be available, either:


http://www.trackersecurity.com/FTV-Receiver.html

http://www.oceanmedix.com/oceanmedix/sku/cOM-tkrFTV468C/cOM-tkrFTV468C.html

[Eclipse]

Don't do it if you can't afford to wait MONTHS for L-Tronics (which is, I think, some guy working out of his home) to even look at it.  I sent one in for service in late March and it STILL hasn't been looked at it yet.  I called a couple of weeks ago and was told, "It's here but it will be a while before I get to it."

That'd be my concern - dump the unit's money in this and then it's a doorstop and we're worse off then before.

Plus I'd probably be bidding against a bunch of you mugs!

[LTC Don]

It would seem to me, that with the explosion of Bluetooth devices, that someone could:

Take an L-tronics switch box (the little blue switcher unit on the mast)(as an example), along with the aerials, mate that to a Bluetooth transceiver, which would then communicate with a smartphone (android or iphone) app that would have a compass display along with signal direction and strength info and whatever else useful bells and whistles. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSC4Y8yA-jY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP4tO_sVIpI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wzb1mgZ0EE


Semi-Related with ADS-B
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS38q3YXsY4  <imagine a left/right Bluetooth dongle paired with an android phone with Google Maps functionality.  Cool stuff.

Previous episode to the above:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjYfOanm0-c

[Eclipse]

Hmmm...

http://www.dopsys.com/index.html

This seems to be in the right range.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Don't do it if you can't afford to wait MONTHS for L-Tronics (which is, I think, some guy working out of his home) to even look at it.  I sent one in for service in late March and it STILL hasn't been looked at it yet.  I called a couple of weeks ago and was told, "It's here but it will be a while before I get to it."

That'd be my concern - dump the unit's money in this and then it's a doorstop and we're worse off then before.

Plus I'd probably be bidding against a bunch of you mugs!

When the Pineda Die/Proof coin was posted on the FB history page, I figured the same thing. Got both real cheap.

[LTC Don]

Hmmm...

http://www.dopsys.com/index.html

This seems to be in the right range.

I >think< I've seen that site before.  This document is almost three years old, and they went with TCP/IP, but today I think Bluetooth is the better way to go and the whole thing could be greatly simplified with a dongle as shown on the Hak5 videos I posted:

http://www.dopsys.com/appnotes/A%20Simple%20Homing%20Direction%20Finder%20Using%20a%20DDF7001%20and%20an%20Android%20Device.pdf

But that they have an app is a great start as proof of concept.

[Holding Pattern]

So a raspberry pi, a R280T, and a 4:1 RF switchboard walk into a bar...

And it seems someone has already built a proof of concept called RasHAWK. I've reached out to the designers for their thoughts on using their work for this purpose. I've got rpi boards and R280Ts laying about, so the initial cost will be low to build something like this.

[Spaceman3750]

So a raspberry pi, a R280T, and a 4:1 RF switchboard walk into a bar...

And it seems someone has already built a proof of concept called RasHAWK. I've reached out to the designers for their thoughts on using their work for this purpose. I've got rpi boards and R280Ts laying about, so the initial cost will be low to build something like this.

I've always wondered if this was possible. At it's heart, the L-Per just measures the signal strength on each antenna and shows you the difference... Should be simple enough on a Pi.

[sardak]

Interestingly I found an outfit called MetOcean still manufacturing a similar device for buoy and other marine location that looks like the same case and a similar faceplate (inverse colors). NOVATECH™ DF-500N. You can even grab one here:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Seimac-DF-500N-Hand-Held-Marine-Direction-Finder-Responds-to-Distress-Beacon-x-/331869664725

I didn't spend a lot of time looking into it, but it appears that Seimac and Novatech and MetOcean are all related companies.

Yes, Seimac and Novatech were adopted siblings.

Cobham Plc acquired Seimac in 2001
Cobham acquired Novatech and Orion Electronics in 2003
Seimac, Orion and Novatech were merged to become Cobham Tracking and Locating in 2007
MetOcean bought Novatech from Cobham in 2010
Cobham got rid of its emergency locator beacon businesses in 2012 (which included Seimac and ACR)
Cobham got rid of its surveillance businesses, including Tracking and Locating, this year
Cobham Plc, a UK company, had sales of over 2 billion English pounds in 2015

MetOcean lists the Novatech DF-500N on its website and states a SAR version is available (click on Read More under technical specs): http://www.metocean.com/products/tracking-monitoring/novatech-beacons-flashers/novatech-beacons/novatech-df-500n

I'm doing testing of a 406 MHz beacon with a proposed intermittent homing signal to see if existing DF units can locate it. RhoTheta/Becker, blue box and cheesblock L-Pers, Mk4 Sniffer, no problems. The Pro-Find not only couldn't find the intermittent beacon, it couldn't find the control beacon with a continuous signal or a standard Pointer 6000 practice beacon. The unit itself might be defective, but given that there are so few of them around, it's not worth trying to figure out if it works or not. It's listed as "No test" instead of pass or fail. As for the Tracker FTV, the only one I can find is a 121.5/243.0 version, so it's also "No test."

Mike

[Luis R. Ramos]

Sardak-

When you give info on models that you tested, can you at least identify if they are hand-helds, and model numbers?

A lot of us are not as experienced as you are, our experience limited only to the L-Pers... and the Tracker...

Earlier I found RhoTheta/Becker, but the only models I could find were aircraft mounts. Are there RhoTheta hand-helds for sale? Model number, please?

Is Blue Box a hand-held df? If so, model number, please... And company...

The M4 Sniffer, can it really be held in the hand as the manual states, or does it need an antenna similar to the old L-Per?

[sardak]

Luis,

Earlier I found RhoTheta/Becker, but the only models I could find were aircraft mounts. Are there RhoTheta hand-helds for sale? Model number, please?

I was referring to the aircraft models. RhoTheta will sell you a manpack version of the RT-500M, if you really want one.
 

Is Blue Box a hand-held df? If so, model number, please... And company...

The blue box is the long-time L-Per with the wooden sticks. The cheesblock is the newer, digital version of the L-Per.

The M4 Sniffer, can it really be held in the hand as the manual states, or does it need an antenna similar to the old L-Per?

The Sniffer needs to be attached to an antenna. Typically, a Yagi is used like this. This picture and more on the Sniffer and antennas at: http://www.rdfantennas.com/index.php


Here is an ACR Vecta 406 prototype for DFing 121.5 and 406 beacons. It has never been put into production. This and the RhoTheta manpack were built in response to a US Coast Guard RFP for a prototype "portable" 406 DF. The projected single unit cost of both, in quantity, was 5 figures left of the decimal.


I found the 2009 GSA price list for the Pro-Find, which started this thread. 
The DF, ear bud and AC/DC charger package was $1,531.49
Adding the 121.775 practice beacon brought the price to $1,675.06
The hard case and spare non-rechargeable C-cell battery pack added $239.29
The ProFIND NT DF/DF 500 N (unit now sold by Novatel) was $1,895.21

Mike

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

The M4 Sniffer, can it really be held in the hand as the manual states, or does it need an antenna similar to the old L-Per?

I love my Mk4 Sniffer and I have used it on many actual missions. I have the split boom antenna from Arrow: http://www.arrowantennas.com/arrowii/121.5-3ii.html and I use three pieces of Velcro antenna to bundle up the pieces. Frankly It takes so long to assemble the antenna that I mostly just use it with a pigtail.  The pigtail antenna from an old airband antenna.

It works great!!

YouTube video of it in operation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5JSXrffyj0

[Luis R. Ramos]

The antenna instructions state to "keep it to 10 watts if handheld, mounted can be used in 150 watts."

So, how do you adjust that? Is there an outside/internal switch? And why the change? Is operating above 10 watts harmful to the operator?

The Arrow antenna seems to be cheaper...

[SarDragon]

Unless I missed something, the antenna is used receive only, and power ratings are irrelevant.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

[Luis R. Ramos]

Thank you.

Remember, I do not know anything about the Mk 4 Sniffer, and am reacting only on what I see on the website...

[tribalelder]

That legacy l'per on eBay--has likely  been in the case since early 90's?-at least  Practice frequency 121.6 on panel, not stickered for a 121.775 added channel, so not likely it has not been out to play for a long time. It is likely to need new crystal-minimum.

Expect to give the  volume control a blast of tuner cleaner too.

[PHall]

That legacy l'per on eBay--has likely  been in the case since early 90's?-at least  Practice frequency 121.6 on panel, not stickered for a 121.775 added channel, so not likely it has not been out to play for a long time. It is likely to need new crystal-minimum.

Expect to give the  volume control a blast of tuner cleaner too.

Give all of the switches/controls a good blast of tuner cleaner. And clean up any signs of battery corrosion too!

[Eclipse]

That golding handle / antenna combo is the one we're looking at buying.

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

That golding handle / antenna combo is the one we're looking at buying.

Let me know if you want pics.

[Jasonfire7]

So we have 2 of the original L-Per in my squadron. I am looking to upgrade to a better version. I have found everyone's findings about the Pro find to be correct as I have borrowed one and it is junk. The new L-per is sold out and wont return e-mails. I have used the "sniffers" before with great success, And that would be the one I am leaning towards. Has anyone purchased the MK4 sniffer recently? I was attempting to price one out but currently unable to locate any for sale.

[Eclipse]

This is where we'll be getting ours:  http://www.rdfantennas.com/products.php

[Garibaldi]

In addition to our 2 olde L-Pers, our resident engineer created a 3 element Yagi out of PVC pipe and a tape measure. I used it last Wednesday on a non-distress search, and it worked great. Except I forgot about the fact my HT would only do a receive mode, not DF. And that in this mode, the strongest signal would be to my right as opposed to straight ahead. And that's where the ELT was ultimately found: 90 degrees to the right of where I was convinced it was. I didn't realize this until this morning.

[Eclipse]

From this months "special" Volunteer - Page 39.



((*sigh*))

[sardak]

^^^My thoughts exactly when I saw that in the Volunteer. I recently ran some homing trials. Blue Box L-Per, Cheeseblock L-Per and Sniffer had 100% finds. Pro/No-Find had 0%.

Mike

[Al Sayre]

BTDT, same results.

[PHall]

For on-airport ELT hunting, I've had my best and most consistent results with a scanner and a "rubber duck" antenna. Body shielding works!

[LTC Don]

This is where we'll be getting ours:  http://www.rdfantennas.com/products.php

Currently showing the MK4 (temp) out of stock.  What would be needed to merge a MK4 into an L-PER mast/element setup?

[Eclipse]

This is where we'll be getting ours:  http://www.rdfantennas.com/products.php

Currently showing the MK4 (temp) out of stock.  What would be needed to merge a MK4 into an L-PER mast/element setup?

Figures.   We budgeted to buy one this quarter...!@#$%

No idea on the antenna, we're just going to buy the handle combo with the MK4 (assuming we can get one).

[THRAWN]

For on-airport ELT hunting, I've had my best and most consistent results with a scanner and a "rubber duck" antenna. Body shielding works!

Truth! And by adjusting the frequency, you can pinpoint a shelf that the thing is sitting on....

[jeders]

This is where we'll be getting ours:  http://www.rdfantennas.com/products.php

Currently showing the MK4 (temp) out of stock.  What would be needed to merge a MK4 into an L-PER mast/element setup?

This is where we'll be getting ours:  http://www.rdfantennas.com/products.php

Currently showing the MK4 (temp) out of stock.  What would be needed to merge a MK4 into an L-PER mast/element setup?

Figures.   We budgeted to buy one this quarter...!@#$%

No idea on the antenna, we're just going to buy the handle combo with the MK4 (assuming we can get one).

I just bought the Mk4 Version 4 direct from the manufacturer in Australia, the price with shipping was about $170.00 as opposed to the $295.00 from rdfantennas. I'm still getting the antenna from Bob Miller, but I try to save money where I can.

[Eclipse]

Oh wow, awesome - it's not my money, so any savings are appreciated.

[Fubar]

It also appears the manufacturer ships with newer firmware.

[LTC Don]

This may have already been posted.  Definitely a different tool from the L-Per. 

[Nick]

For on-airport ELT hunting, I've had my best and most consistent results with a scanner and a "rubber duck" antenna. Body shielding works!

I agree. I was solo on a return Mx ferry flight and had to divert for weather, and as I was landing at the airport I picked up a 121.5 signal. After I landed, since I had nothing better to do, I grabbed my portable air band radio and had the hangar where the signal was coming from pinned down in less than 5 minutes.

Goes to show how fundamental skills still need to be encouraged rather than fully depending on technology.


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