Boy Scout SAR merit badge

[Eclipse]

You all do train your cadets in basic survival, SAR skills, and fieldcraft whether they participate actively in ES or not don't you? If not, you should.

Where would this ever come up?  Outside ES, fieldcraft is not a part of the CP.

[ol'fido]

You all do train your cadets in basic survival, SAR skills, and fieldcraft whether they participate actively in ES or not don't you? If not, you should.

Where would this ever come up?  Outside ES, fieldcraft is not a part of the CP.

1. It's fun.
2. They learn something.
3. It builds individual confidence and unit cohesion better than most other techniques.
4. If you expose all your cadets to this type of training, you have the basic building blocks in place if they decide to become involved in ES later.
5. Teaching the Cadet Program means teaching cadets about ALL of Civil Air Patrol including the ES portion whether they wish to participate in it actively or not.
6. How are you going to recruit people to participate in ES who don't join to perform ES or even know about it when they do join? Exposing them to it might give them the idea and the incentive that this is something they want to be a part of. It's like handing out free samples at the supermarket. Some might not take it, some may take it and not like it, but a few will say, "Hey, this is kind of cool. Tell me more.".

Going out for a weekend and learning some basic SAR skills, campcraft, and survival in a relaxed, Non-"Let's try and get as many sign offs on our SQTR this weekend as we can." type of environment will build better GT members than a two or three "jumping out our butts" so-called training weekends ever will. I have seen it happen time and again over the years.

ES training is not the "private property" of those members who choose to participate in ES. Everyone should be able to learn some basic skills whether cadet or senior even if they never participate in an actual mission.

We can go out to the woods for a weekend or three and learn anything and everything that a ground team member or leader should know. No SQTRs, no 72/24hr gear, no problem. There is nothing that says a unit can't do this. It may not count towards being "officially" ES qualified but it is doable. This is part of training a well rounded and knowledgeable cadet(or senior).

Come on guys. Figure it out!

[Eclipse]

We can go out to the woods for a weekend or three and learn anything and everything that a ground team member or leader should know. No SQTRs, no 72/24hr gear, no problem. There is nothing that says a unit can't do this. It may not count towards being "officially" ES qualified but it is doable. This is part of training a well rounded and knowledgeable cadet(or senior).

Under what parts of the program would an activity like this be approved?

CAP has a specific lane for this sort of training - ES, and that has pre-requisites and other requirements designed for safety and ORM.
Skirting that under the guise of "general knowledge" does not sound like a good idea.

Outside that lane, I don't see where you can justify this activity, any more then you could go hunting, fly airplanes, or use radio equipment,
outside the prescribed way to do things.

Then there's the issue of who's doing the training - the ES program has a very specific set of training and qualification before you
can train others.  When you're a GTL and you take a team out, you've been vetted, you've got insurance coverage, and there's some assumption you'll follow the rules.  Who's going to vet the trainer for people just "winging it" (so to speak)?  We just let anyone who says they saw a compass once take cadets into the woods and do "woodsy stuff"?

[ol'fido]

OMFG, nobody said that safety and ORM are going out the window. CAP's specific "lane" for training is for those who wish to become ES qualified and participate in ES missions. Show me where it says that a unit can't go out on a bivouac and run a compass course, teach knot tying, how to build a fire, etc. If I want to get a bunch of cadets qualified for GTM3, I'll have a SET and we'll follow the task guide and dot the i's and cross the t's and all that nice bureaucratic stuff. The purpose of your "lane" is to make sure that members who are participating in actual missions are properly trained, equipped, and lead. It's not there to exclude other members from doing this kind of training at the unit or group level if they so desire and the unit/group commander approves of the activity. The same regs regarding safety, ORM, CPPT, etc. are still there and being applied. The only difference is that nobody is being signed off on a SQTR.

[Eclipse]

Where does it say you can?

The ORM and other rules don't apply because you're not even meeting the prerequisites to perform that training in the first place.
CAP, Inc., is not going to be inclined to offer protections to members performing training outside the specified curriculum and situations.

[lordmonar]

Eclipse.....I can go out into the wood with my cadet out side of ES.

Grab the BSA wilderness surivival merit badge book and go have fun!
Hiking......we do that all the time just a unit acitivty.  No GES, No GTM, No mission number, no hassles....just good basic ORM.

[Eclipse]

There's lot of things people can "do" - the why is what never ceases to amaze me.
It's only when things go bad that people say "Seemed like a good idea at the time..."

[caphornbuckle]

I wish they had this merit badge when I was in scouts!  Would have made it a little easier for me to get Eagle!

[krnlpanick]

There's lot of things people can "do" - the why is what never ceases to amaze me.

Team-building, unit morale, life-skills, leadership training, physical fitness, and last but certainly not least, having fun!

As long as safety remains priority one, I don't see any reason in the world why things like this can not be done.

Here is a link to a document that covers a good bit of information on planning activities - while not all-inclusive, I think that any activity that follows this guidance should be 100% ok

http://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/COWG_Activity_Planning_Suggestions_EC69149CC9EEE.doc

[Eclipse]

OK, I get it on the activity level.

And Randy & Lord aren't going on death marches, I just find it difficult to believe that the average cadet, not interested
in ES otherwise, is going to be interested in the same skills on an ad-hoc basis.

[Spaceman3750]

OK, I get it on the activity level.

And Randy & Lord aren't going on death marches, I just find it difficult to believe that the average cadet, not interested
in ES otherwise, is going to be interested in the same skills on an ad-hoc basis.

Context. You deal with urban cadets, he deals with rural. Two mindsets, two (partially overlapping) sets of interests.

Taking cadets on hiking trips outside of an ES context isn't my cup of tea, but I guess if there's a demand for it by cadets.

[krnlpanick]

I think that any activity like this; and by like this I mean not GSAR school, not encampment, and not some other authorized ES training - should have a variety of activities planned. There should be a good mix of stuff for the cadets to do and they can happen at the same time. Cadets interested in ES type stuff can learn some high level skills or even focused training if there is a qualified instructor there, while cadets not interested in doing something ES related can do standard team-building activities. Having larger group activities to build team cohesion is also a good thing to plan. I guess what I am trying to say is that you can plan a successful activity like this that makes everyone happy if you have the staff to support it.

Just my $0.02

[lordmonar]

There's lot of things people can "do" - the why is what never ceases to amaze me.

Team-building, unit morale, life-skills, leadership training, physical fitness, and last but certainly not least, having fun!

As long as safety remains priority one, I don't see any reason in the world why things like this can not be done.

Here is a link to a document that covers a good bit of information on planning activities - while not all-inclusive, I think that any activity that follows this guidance should be 100% ok

http://www_.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/COWG_Activity_Planning_Suggestions_EC69149CC9EEE.doc

+1

[lordmonar]

OK, I get it on the activity level.

And Randy & Lord aren't going on death marches, I just find it difficult to believe that the average cadet, not interested
in ES otherwise, is going to be interested in the same skills on an ad-hoc basis.

I don't understand why my cadets are not interested in ES either....I may get 2-3 who want to do GT stuff.  I get 10-15 who simply want to go hiking for an afternoon! 

So...being the good CP guy I am.....we tailor our program to meet my cadet's wants and needs.  If they wanted to sew toaster cozies or knit......I would take them on a sewing bee.

[SarDragon]

OK, I get it on the activity level.

And Randy & Lord aren't going on death marches, I just find it difficult to believe that the average cadet, not interested
in ES otherwise, is going to be interested in the same skills on an ad-hoc basis.

Well, I must not have had average cadets. Some time back, we did an FTX as a part of a local SAREX. We camped overnight, did  basic survival, SAR skills, and field craft, and nobody got their undies in a bunch about getting signed off for ES tasks. I'm not even sure we were using SQTRs back then ('02-ish?).

[Woodsy]

Just curious...  How many cadets are not interested in ES?  Personally, I haven't met a single one...  There are of course tons that don't have any quals, due to lack of opportunities, school, personal situations, etc., but I've never asked a cadet "are you interested in ES" and had them answer "no." 

I personally believe that ES should not be optional for cadets.  CAP was founded for the primary purpose of ES (coastal patrol era) and ES remains a primary purpose to this day.

I often wonder if we wouldn't be better off splitting the cadet program into a different, independent organization from our ES operators? 

[Spaceman3750]

I have lots of cadets interested in ES... Until they find out that it requires actual commitment and work. Then I just have a few interested.

[ol'fido]

Listen, Spaceman, we are planning on having a bivouac of this type sometime this fall. I am shooting for Columbus day weekend. Our previous Group CC was all for it and I am pretty sure the new one will be too. Come on down and play with us for a weekend. I will send you the details later as they become available if you wish.

[lordmonar]

Just curious...  How many cadets are not interested in ES?  Personally, I haven't met a single one...  There are of course tons that don't have any quals, due to lack of opportunities, school, personal situations, etc., but I've never asked a cadet "are you interested in ES" and had them answer "no." 

I personally believe that ES should not be optional for cadets.  CAP was founded for the primary purpose of ES (coastal patrol era) and ES remains a primary purpose to this day.

I often wonder if we wouldn't be better off splitting the cadet program into a different, independent organization from our ES operators?

That's all well and good....but we already have a full plate of "required" items we have to do.....adding ES to the mix would make progression in the CP even slower.

[800bestofcap]

i think its dangerous that they are teaching the boy scouts this skill without proper instructors because if their friend gets lost and they think that merit badge qualified them to look for him they are in trouble because they A: don't have good training just a basic "101" so to speak B: they don't have survival (24 hour) packs so if they get lost they have no supplies C: they don't have radios or any radio training so they have no reliable communications so if they find him and no one has a cell phone they don't know how to make a stretcher so he has to wait for someone to get back to camp for help D:what do they do if they find him? 1: none of them have the kind of first aid training we do so if they're buddies wounded hes in trouble 2: none of them get the counselling we do so they will have an emotional scar for the rest of their life and all of this is coming from a boy scout so i know when my troop gets the merit badge im going to teach it to them currently i am GTM3 and NC wing is haveing a ground team school and i want to get GTM2