GTM1

[davidsinn]

That or pull them from leader.

Most are important, but why they are doubled up is anyone's guess - you can't be a GTL w/o being a GTM.

I think the theory was that you could have a <18 cadet get GTM1, turn 18 and then only have one or two tasks and a couple sorties to become a GTL. Still any planning and controlling tasks really should be GTL only.

[lordmonar]

Yes....but then comes the BS about GT levels and what a "team" could or could not do.

60-3 talks about the difference in team as how long they are prepared to go out into the field.  ICS talks about different types of teams by how big they are, wether or not they have organic EMTs and how many support (GBD, MRO, LSC ect) with them.

Add the silliness about what the GT badge means and it gets all screwy.

Simple enough to just say this is GT qualified...and be done with it.  If it means more training up front....I got no problem with that.

The additonal tasks for GTM2 are tasks I would want any of my team member to have anyways.

And the most of the GTM1 tasks are really GTL tasks.

So rolling GTM 1-3 into just GTM would add some time to training but not a lot.  It would make getting fully qualified GT out there instead of some half trained GTM3.  It would make our teams more professional.

[Eclipse]

As I recall, the other argument was that by GTM-1 you had 3x's the mission sorties, and by leader another two - 6-8 sorties or more, making it much harder to pencil whip.

So recombine the qual and then just require more sorties.

[davidsinn]

As I recall, the other argument was that by GTM-1 you had 3x's the mission sorties, and by leader another two - 6-8 sorties or more, making it much harder to pencil whip.

So recombine the qual and then just require more sorties.

Yeah, that falls flat because you can go from GT3 to GTL.

[Eclipse]

As I recall, the other argument was that by GTM-1 you had 3x's the mission sorties, and by leader another two - 6-8 sorties or more, making it much harder to pencil whip.

So recombine the qual and then just require more sorties.

Yeah, that falls flat because you can go from GT3 to GTL.

Agreed, which was another reason a lot of olde schoolers had heartburn with the whole idea.

[N Harmon]

I never had any heartache over the GTM levels. GTL is simple an add-on to GTM. It means you can operate at your GTM level, plus lead the team. And GTM3/GTLs should be rare because all (iirc) of the GTM2 skills are part of GTL, and your GTL sorties should count for GTM2 as well.

GTM3 is like a General ES for field operations. That is how I treat it. If you are GTM3, you are basically an warm body who is insured and will probably not injure yourself walking around in the woods. And in many situations that extra manpower comes in handy.

[davidsinn]

And GTM3/GTLs should be rare because all (iirc) of the GTM2 skills are part of GTL, and your GTL sorties should count for GTM2 as well.

You can only function in one role at a time on a ground sortie. If you're the GTL, you're it from brief to debrief. That's why I'm a GT3/GTL. I haven't had time to upgrade my ground quals.

[arajca]

Part of the reasoning behind the three levels was it took a long time for members (esp. cadets) to get qualified as a GTM since you were going from nothing to GTM1 as far as the task list goes. Getting the necessary training took a couple of years if you were lucky, and most of the advanced skills weren't being used. Seriously, how often do CAP ground teams spend days in the field without any chance to get back to civilization? Not counting the intentional ES schools and training, of course.

The SAR teams here in the mountains of CO generally spend no more than one night, and that's only if they have a late call out.

[lordmonar]

I never had any heartache over the GTM levels. GTL is simple an add-on to GTM. It means you can operate at your GTM level, plus lead the team. And GTM3/GTLs should be rare because all (iirc) of the GTM2 skills are part of GTL, and your GTL sorties should count for GTM2 as well.

GTM3 is like a General ES for field operations. That is how I treat it. If you are GTM3, you are basically an warm body who is insured and will probably not injure yourself walking around in the woods. And in many situations that extra manpower comes in handy.

Well that's just my point.

"work at your GTM level"....what exactly does that mean?  And why does it mean that?

Finally....where in the regulations are you limited to you minimun level?

Because the three different places where it talks about "levels" they mean three different things.

[N Harmon]

"work at your GTM level"....what exactly does that mean?  And why does it mean that?

It means if you are a GTL, then your GTM qualification level determines the highest level of team you can lead. In other words, a GTL who is GTM3 qualified may have nothing but high-speed GTM1s on his ground team, but his team is still a level 3 ground team. I guess you could say your GTM level determins your GTL level if you have the GTL qualification.

At least that is my understanding. The regulations are not clear on this.

Finally....where in the regulations are you limited to you minimun level?

(2) Team training and experience must be appropriate for the mission (proficiency in DF use, ground rescue knowledge, concentrated area search procedures, missing person search, etc.). Ground Team Members – Level 1 should be prepared to conduct ground team operations within their limits of training up to 72 hours. Ground Team Members – Level 2 should be
prepared to conduct ground team operations within their limits of training for up to 48 hours. Ground Team Members – Level 3 should be prepared to conduct ground team operations within their limits of training for up to 24 hours.

(a) A ground team may only conduct operations within the limits of training of its lowest qualified member. A member qualified at one level, and having supervised trainee status for a higher level may be used operationally at the higher level if the trainee is properly equipped and supervised.

What are the other two places?

[davidsinn]

"work at your GTM level"....what exactly does that mean?  And why does it mean that?

It means if you are a GTL, then your GTM qualification level determines the highest level of team you can lead. In other words, a GTL who is GTM3 qualified may have nothing but high-speed GTM1s on his ground team, but his team is still a level 3 ground team. I guess you could say your GTM level determins your GTL level if you have the GTL qualification.

At least that is my understanding. The regulations are not clear on this.

Finally....where in the regulations are you limited to you minimun level?

(2) Team training and experience must be appropriate for the mission (proficiency in DF use, ground rescue knowledge, concentrated area search procedures, missing person search, etc.). Ground Team Members – Level 1 should be prepared to conduct ground team operations within their limits of training up to 72 hours. Ground Team Members – Level 2 should be
prepared to conduct ground team operations within their limits of training for up to 48 hours. Ground Team Members – Level 3 should be prepared to conduct ground team operations within their limits of training for up to 24 hours.

(a) A ground team may only conduct operations within the limits of training of its lowest qualified member. A member qualified at one level, and having supervised trainee status for a higher level may be used operationally at the higher level if the trainee is properly equipped and supervised.

What are the other two places?

There is no such thing as a level 3 team. It's a ground team. Period.

I just looked at my SQTR and between GTM3, UDF and GTL I'm only missing five tasks for GTM2 and GTM1. The GT quals are broken. We should only have three levels: UDF, GTM and GTL. UDF should be a prereq for GTM. That gets them into the field quickly and then you add on the woods stuff and field survival stuff to make a GTM and then add on the planning and leading stuff to make a GTL. There is way too much overlap and redundancy between the tracts.

[Eclipse]

^ This makes perfect sense.

I don't buy the argument that it "takes to long" - that is one of the things that gave the GT badge some actual weight, and members could still participate in mission while in FAM/PREP.

[cap235629]

Once again, adopt NASAR and then move on.  So much easier and INTERNATIONALLY recognized!

[lordmonar]

Harmon,

That is exactly my point.

The SQTR talk about the three levels as seperate levels of training.  A GTL 1 know more stuff then a GTL 2 or three.

60-3 talks about the three levels by how long they are prepared to stay in the field.....not by what skills they have.
It then throws out something about only being able to operate at the lowest level.
Which is pure BS.

If I got a four person ground team GTL/GLM-3, GTM-1, GTM-2 and GTM-3.

I can't stay out at night because only one of my guys does not know how to put up a shelter (GTM-2).
I can go farther then I can see the van because only one guy does not know how to do a pace count (GTM-2)
I can take my team past an obsticale because only one guy does not know how to navigate past and obsticle (GTM-2)
We can't use maps because only one guy does not know how to identify map symbols, determin elevation, distance or orient his map. (GTM-2)
We can't do a ram check because on guy does not know how do them?(GTM-2)
We can't work with dog teams because two guy's have not signed off that task (GTM-1)


No.  That stupid rule is as useless as teats on your brother.

Now....I got no problem with talking about ORM.  Am I going to take 10 GTM-3 trainees into some heavey moutounous terrain with threats of flash floods and thudnerstorms?   No way.  But 60-3 with this completly un-realistic rule is just stupid.

The third place we have reference to types of teams is in the DRAFT NIMS resource typing guide.
There the type of teams all assume that every individual is fully qualified to be there.  The types are about sizes and number of team, whether they have the right vehicles, organic EMTs, a GBT and base support staff.

My entire argument is that 8 of the 11 GTM-1 tasks are actually GTL tasks (plan, lead, organise)
That 10 of the 12 GTM-2 tasks are all MAP and orienteering tasks....that should be taught when teaching the GTM-3 compass tasks and would maybe add 8 hours of class room time to their training.

The distinciton that a GTL who is only a GTM-3 is pure BS as well.  Except for one or two tasks that got left off the SQTR the GTL has the same training as any GTM-1.....just less sorties under his belt.....and that can be fixed by requiring more sorties to get GTM qualfied in the first place and requiring some additional sorties as a prerequisit.

[lordmonar]

Once again, adopt NASAR and then move on.  So much easier and INTERNATIONALLY recognized!

For the most part we do have the same standards.  The only problem I got with NASAR is the costs.  If we adopted NASAR we whould have to do their training and take their tests......we complain about adding costs.  There is nothing really wrong with our training.....only how we manage it and how we tie that into operations.

[Eclipse]

Why not just do the same things and call them NESAR?

[lordmonar]

Why not just do the same things and call them NESAR?

We already do 90% of the same thing (they do more rope work)....and call them Ground Teams.

[RiverAux]

When we are the largest ground SAR organization in the country, why should we adopt the "standards" of some other organization that self-appointed themselves to come up with them.  Ours are just as legitimate and as said, are basically the same except in tasks that CAP members aren't allowed to do anyway. 

That being said, our system is not very well thought out.  The tasks are split up between the 3 levels with no real rhyme or reason.   There was a proposal floating around a while back that re-arranged the tasks so that similar stuff was done at the same time, for example, all the nav tasks were taught at the same time. 

And I agree that there is no clear operational reason to have 3 levels of GTMs.  The only real difference between them in the regs is how long they stay in the field, which makes absolutely no sense. 

[Spaceman3750]

"How do you operate at your GTM level when your team's lowest common denominator is 3?"

GTM3s - "You guys remember how to do a line search, right?"
GTM2 - "You're my navigator, here's the maps. I need to get the team here and I need our position in the logbook every 15 minutes. If you have any questions just ask - I'll spot check you here and there."
GTM1 - "You're my assistant. I will task you as things arise but you will help me plan the search line and make sure the team is equipped. Go take the team and do a vehicle inspection while I get briefed."

There. Everyone is operating at their level. Look at the tasks. The only major issue with operating a team with GTM3 as the lowest common denominator is how long you can stay overnight. Depending on the makeup of the team the GTL may have to do more or less work. That's it.

By the way, if I ever get to lead a team with more than GTM3-Ts outside of a NESA setting this is how I would run it.

[RiverAux]

Has anyone ever come up with a reasonable explanation linking GTM level with number of nights deployed?