Vehicle Roof Markings

[lordmonar]

Well one of the whole reasons for the ICS system is to forget about OPSEC.

Tactical call sign are there to make it easier for different agencies to communicate.

No one knows who Silver State 123 is....it is a whole lot easer to know that CAP1234 is and an aircraft and CAP GT1 is one of our ground teams.

Does that blow OPSEC?  Sure it does....but really who cares that much?  If the press is listening (and they are) let them.  If they intefere...well thats when we call in the LE dudes to deal with them.

For normal comm operations, I think it is easier to just assign the radio a call sign....I don't care who is operating it...I just need to know where they are so I can judge the interity of the net.

If I were the comm Gods......I would assigne 01-99 to specific positons (wing CC, DO, group CC, Wing PAO, etc) then 100-199 would be base stations, 200-299 would be Van Radios, 300-399 would be hand held radios.  That leave 400-999 to be assigned to indviduals with their own radios.

So when Sliver State 521 called into the net I would instantly know he is not on a CAP asset and judge his value to net intergrity accordingly.

Remember that the CAP Comm system is not the same as ES communcations although it uses the same equipment and network.

[RADIOMAN015]

Well one of the whole reasons for the ICS system is to forget about OPSEC.

Tactical call sign are there to make it easier for different agencies to communicate.

No one knows who Silver State 123 is....it is a whole lot easer to know that CAP1234 is and an aircraft and CAP GT1 is one of our ground teams.

When CAP operates its' own teams, on its' own radio system, controlled by its' own mission base/IC, than we should be using our appropriate wing tactical callsign for aircraft, base, and portable units.  IF we are part of a large operation using other than CAP radio comm systems than we should use appropriate FUNCTIONAL callsigns both for ground as well as air teams.
This whole notion of functional callsigns has gotten out of hand.  The radio used on CAP frequencies MUST have an assigned callsign & properly approved/licensed as being compliant with the regulations.

Again as far as what's on the top of the vans or other vehicles to help ID them from the air, whatever it is, needs to be told to mission base, and it is added to the information about that ground team.
RM   

[caphornbuckle]

I would think that keeping things simple would be better than trying to spend a ton of money for the same results as anything you may already have available to you.

What about...

In the day time, have someone with a signal mirror stick it out the window?

At night, shine one of those powerful spotlights in the air to show your position?

Now I know there's gonna be the "what if's" like an overcast and things like that but there's other things you can do to keep it simple as well.  Reflective vest tied to the roof is an example.

[RiverAux]

In the day time, have someone with a signal mirror stick it out the window?

I've never tried it, but I would think it might be difficult to properly aim a signal mirror in a moving vehicle.  Also seems like a good way to lose a lot of signal mirrors. 

[lordmonar]

Radioman.

I agree with you.  Hence what I said before about assigning callsigns to radios and to people.

Joe Blow brings in his personal compliant radio.  Wing Director of Comm verfiies it as compliant, logs it into the system and issues a call sign FOR THAT RADIO (a 400+ number).

Then all is good.  Joe Blwo brings in another radio he gets a new call sign for that new radio.  Now he can share his radios to other members (who have BCUT) to assist in operations or communications.

One of my biggest beefs with CAP is the Comm System.
The regulations are very clear (for once) and fairly simple (supprisingly) but they still don't seem to work.

It is like pulling teeth to get a BCUT or ACUT class out of someone.  They have been promising for two years now about getting the training on line.

Too many wings don't run their nets regularly.  (I know NVWG doesn't).  Requests for call signs go unanswered.  Requests to Private Owned Radios registered go unanswered.

They still have not completely migrated to digital operations.

There are great big gapping holes in net coverage.

As for what we use on our own nets compared to what we use on a joint operation......following the ICS system we should tailor our system to be as close to what we use on a joint net so that increase our interoperablity.

I am not a CAP comm guy......but I am a Professional Comm guy in my day job.....and I have just not been impressed by CAP comm.

Granted it may just be a local thing...YMMV.

[caphornbuckle]

In the day time, have someone with a signal mirror stick it out the window?

I've never tried it, but I would think it might be difficult to properly aim a signal mirror in a moving vehicle.  Also seems like a good way to lose a lot of signal mirrors.

The vehicle can pull over.  Besides, I always kept a lanyard on my signal mirror  .  YMMV.

[cap235629]

Granted it may just be a local thing...YMMV.

From where I stand, it is.  The system works fine as written.  Individuals are issued call signs so you know who you are talking to.  Functional designators are used to identify the resource you are talking to.  Vehicle callsigns are your AF issued wing designator (in Arkansas' case Wildwood) and the last 4 digits of the vehicle id number. Aircraft call signs are CAP plus the state issued numerical designator.

This isn't difficult.  If you have a staff position, there is a predetermined call sign for you already established.  If you do not have a staff position, you are part of a resource and use that functional designator.

[arajca]

Radioman.

I agree with you.  Hence what I said before about assigning callsigns to radios and to people.

Joe Blow brings in his personal compliant radio.  Wing Director of Comm verfiies it as compliant, logs it into the system and issues a call sign FOR THAT RADIO (a 400+ number).

Then all is good.  Joe Blwo brings in another radio he gets a new call sign for that new radio.  Now he can share his radios to other members (who have BCUT) to assist in operations or communications.

Joe Blow gets assigned Hot Shot 432 for his first radio. Folks learn that if you want to get Joe Blow on the radio, you can HS432. Now he gets a second call sign for his second radio, HS458. How do you get hold of him if you do not know which radio he has at any given time? Carry out this to some folks who have three or four or more radios (I have four - 2 VHF portables, one VHF mobile, and 1 issued 800MHz) I know of a few who have six or seven when you add in HF.

One of my biggest beefs with CAP is the Comm System.
The regulations are very clear (for once) and fairly simple (supprisingly) but they still don't seem to work.

It is like pulling teeth to get a BCUT or ACUT class out of someone.  They have been promising for two years now about getting the training on line.

Sounds like a local issue.

Too many wings don't run their nets regularly.  (I know NVWG doesn't).

Many have dropped their nets altogether since there usually is no traffic to be passed.

Requests for call signs go unanswered.  Requests to Private Owned Radios registered go unanswered.

Another local/wing issue

They still have not completely migrated to digital operations.

There is no current plan to do so for non-incident traffic, and not at this time for incident traffic. Doing so will kill off most of the privately owned radios in CAP.

There are great big gapping holes in net coverage.

I presume you're talking about the repeater coverage. The current repeater plan was developed a few years ago by each wing. Any holes in your wing's coverage were put in or left in by the wing.

As for what we use on our own nets compared to what we use on a joint operation......following the ICS system we should tailor our system to be as close to what we use on a joint net so that increase our interoperablity.

No arguements here. However, almost every agency I have dealt with runs their nets differently, so we are not unique in that aspect.

[ZigZag911]

Even on CAP only missions and exercises, the functional call signs are more efficient and effective, because generally an ES mission draws members from a variety of units who may not be familiar with others' tactical call signs.

Now, if the whole mission is being conducted by a single squadron, then it could work.

[Buzz]

In LE, the roof top number is usually their call sign.

YMMV.

Most roof numbers that I've ever seen have been vehicle shop numbers.  Tactical callsigns may be assigned to the personnel, not the vehicle, and in an agency with a large fleet, there is often a certain amount of circulation between zones.

For CAP use, a good scheme would be a "two-line," with the last 3 of the VIN in 24" contrasting numbers, left-right, with the (REAL) 12" diameter CAP insignia on the line above.

[Buzz]

So when Sliver State 521 called into the net I would instantly know he is not on a CAP asset and judge his value to net intergrity accordingly.

Well, gee, Major, I'm a lowly Captain . . .if I'm visiting the Sharp End and log into your squadron net with my own radio, how will you judge my value? 

Will it be for my being a CAP cadet in the 1970s and a senior member for a decade and a half?  For the three Unit Citations that I helped various squadrons earn?  My saves?  My having held every slot in squadron leadership except CO?  Will it be for the Astro Saber I'm logging in with (keep your Jedi, I like the Saber platform), or if I'm on one of the Astro Spectras on my various vehicles and plane?

Or will I be judged less worthy because I'm not using a Corporate asset to check in with?

How about if you don't use that as any kind of indication, and just welcome me to the net . . ?

[Buzz]

Doing so will kill off most of the privately owned radios in CAP.

Again.

However, when they came out with the first list of compliant/non-compliant radios, Astro Sabers were $1200+.  Today, you can find one (with P25 working) for $200 on Fleabay.  It shouldn't be hard to find a shop with the software to program it, and maybe they will cut a deal for CAP.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there are a bunch of them, RFS, being sat on by Ma Batwings shops, waiting for buyers.  A group buy might be made in larger metropolitan areas for radios programmed for CAP.

[lordmonar]

So when Sliver State 521 called into the net I would instantly know he is not on a CAP asset and judge his value to net intergrity accordingly.

Well, gee, Major, I'm a lowly Captain . . .if I'm visiting the Sharp End and log into your squadron net with my own radio, how will you judge my value? 

Will it be for my being a CAP cadet in the 1970s and a senior member for a decade and a half?  For the three Unit Citations that I helped various squadrons earn?  My saves?  My having held every slot in squadron leadership except CO?  Will it be for the Astro Saber I'm logging in with (keep your Jedi, I like the Saber platform), or if I'm on one of the Astro Spectras on my various vehicles and plane?

Or will I be judged less worthy because I'm not using a Corporate asset to check in with?

How about if you don't use that as any kind of indication, and just welcome me to the net . . ?

I will judge you as a temporary part of the net....of value to the net based on your personal availablit.

Just like I would judge any other temporary part of the net.

Corporate base assets should be assigned based on the geographic location....so that the has coverage to survive the collapse of the normal comm net.

When testing the net...I am primarilly worried about the fixed base stations and their health, then the mobile (van) stations, then the portables and last but not least the POR and out of state asstes in my net.

I got nothing against POR's......it is just that I would not build my net relying on them.

[Spaceman3750]

So when Sliver State 521 called into the net I would instantly know he is not on a CAP asset and judge his value to net intergrity accordingly.

Well, gee, Major, I'm a lowly Captain . . .if I'm visiting the Sharp End and log into your squadron net with my own radio, how will you judge my value? 

Will it be for my being a CAP cadet in the 1970s and a senior member for a decade and a half?  For the three Unit Citations that I helped various squadrons earn?  My saves?  My having held every slot in squadron leadership except CO?  Will it be for the Astro Saber I'm logging in with (keep your Jedi, I like the Saber platform), or if I'm on one of the Astro Spectras on my various vehicles and plane?

Or will I be judged less worthy because I'm not using a Corporate asset to check in with?

How about if you don't use that as any kind of indication, and just welcome me to the net . . ?

I will judge you as a temporary part of the net....of value to the net based on your personal availablit.

Just like I would judge any other temporary part of the net.

Corporate base assets should be assigned based on the geographic location....so that the has coverage to survive the collapse of the normal comm net.

When testing the net...I am primarilly worried about the fixed base stations and their health, then the mobile (van) stations, then the portables and last but not least the POR and out of state asstes in my net.

I got nothing against POR's......it is just that I would not build my net relying on them.

Interesting position to take given that the TOA bases assignments on operations use not net value. There's a couple of exceptions to that, HF base stations and RDP being one example but with ALE being rolled out fast and hard I don't think we're going to see any personal equipment on the HF nets any more.

[caphornbuckle]

What does all this have to do with vehicle roof markings?

[SarDragon]

It went from markings, to call signs, to operators, to equipment, to equipment accounting.

Is the clock ticking?

[PHall]

At least it hasn't devolved into a Uniform thread, yet...

[Eclipse]

At least it hasn't devolved into a Uniform thread, yet...

Well...ifin you ask real nice laik...