GIIEPS - CAP goes high tech

[SARJunkie]

"We know that the hams can do it beautifully with DSTAR, but  that doesn't work for CAP for all the reasons that have been beaten to death previously."


What if we put a Amateur (Non-CAP) member in he bird to operate thier DSTAR gear?   

Last week we completed a DSTAR 1296 test at 2000 feet  (in a Non CAP bird!, as part of my real job.)   We had over 100 mile range from the repeater site with solid 100k data.

[Fubar]

P25 only supports 9600 baud.... too slow for anything useful other than text messaging.

Just to show the math, a 5 MB photo would take 1 hour, 12 minutes and 48 seconds to transmit over 9600 baud. Unless you had a really important picture, it would be faster to simply land at the nearest airport, pull out a laptop and upload the photos into WIMRS.

[Spaceman3750]

"We know that the hams can do it beautifully with DSTAR, but  that doesn't work for CAP for all the reasons that have been beaten to death previously."


What if we put a Amateur (Non-CAP) member in he bird to operate thier DSTAR gear?   

Last week we completed a DSTAR 1296 test at 2000 feet  (in a Non CAP bird!, as part of my real job.)   We had over 100 mile range from the repeater site with solid 100k data.

It's not who owns the plane that's the problem, it's the conducting of CAP business over amateur band that's the issue. I think because of our aux status (federal organization) we are prohibited legally from using the amateur band - but that's just something I recall, I can't cite it.

Also, I didn't know P25 operated at 9600 baud (though I guess someone may have mentioned it earlier). Good to know.

[davidsinn]

"We know that the hams can do it beautifully with DSTAR, but  that doesn't work for CAP for all the reasons that have been beaten to death previously."


What if we put a Amateur (Non-CAP) member in he bird to operate thier DSTAR gear?   

Last week we completed a DSTAR 1296 test at 2000 feet  (in a Non CAP bird!, as part of my real job.)   We had over 100 mile range from the repeater site with solid 100k data.

It's not who owns the plane that's the problem, it's the conducting of CAP business over amateur band that's the issue. I think because of our aux status (federal organization) we are prohibited legally from using the amateur band - but that's just something I recall, I can't cite it.

Also, I didn't know P25 operated at 9600 baud (though I guess someone may have mentioned it earlier). Good to know.

This may be a stupid question but why can't we use the HAM technology but on our frequencies?

[SARJunkie]

you need 15 MHZ of bandwidth to use the DSTAR Digital data modulation.  We dont have 15 mhz  lol


But it wouldnt be CAP business at that point.  and in a disaster all the rules are out the window!  The Amateur operator would be conducting Amateur business, we just provide an airframe.

[Spaceman3750]

you need 15 MHZ of bandwidth to use the DSTAR Digital data modulation.  We dont have 15 mhz  lol


But it wouldnt be CAP business at that point.  and in a disaster all the rules are out the window!  The Amateur operator would be conducting Amateur business, we just provide an airframe.

If CAP is asked to transmit photos from the air and we bring along a HAM to send them that's CAP business.

And what gave you the idea that in a disaster all the rules are out the window?? That's usually when the rules are most important because frequencies become congested and there's a lot of confusion and mayhem. Traffic which would typically be preceded by mayday is allowed to bend the rules (like transmitting on any available freq.), but that doesn't mean that we can do whatever we want during a disaster.

[SARJunkie]

But what is CAP's tasking is to just  fly the Amateur operator, and he takes the pics and sends them?  At that point we are just a taxi...

In an emergency  you do what you have to do to get the traffic to the recipient, If that involved TXing on another freq or system you do it. 

[Spaceman3750]

In an emergency  you do what you have to do to get the traffic to the recipient, If that involved TXing on another freq or system you do it.

Correct.

A natural disaster doesn't qualify as such an emergency. An emergency is defined as a situation with imminent threat to life or property. That means you're rapidly approaching the ground at a high rate of speed, drowning in a river, or other similar immediate problem.

[SARJunkie]

Ok, but again, Why cant an amateur Radio operator , take pics, and TX them via their system on board our birds?

Not CAP business, its Amateur Radio business. we just provide the aircraft.

[Spaceman3750]

Ok, but again, Why cant an amateur Radio operator , take pics, and TX them via their system on board our birds?

Not CAP business, its Amateur Radio business. we just provide the aircraft.

2-3. Passenger Requirements. Passengers and crew members must be current CAP members, CAP employees, AFROTC/AFJROTC cadets (AFROTC/AFJROTC flight orientation program), International Air Cadet Exchange (IACE) cadets and escorts, Emergency Services (ES) or Rescue workers engaged in a Supervised Mission (if approved by the mission approval authority), FAA designated pilot examiners during flight checks, or U.S. government employees/military conducting official duties in conjunction with CAP. Other individuals require advance approval by the CAP NOC, NHQ CAP/DO, or CAP-USAF (5 working days notice requested for approvals).

Well, if they qualify as an ES worker and you have approval from whoever the "mission approval authority" is (presumably NOC) then you could probably do it.

[SARJunkie]

Correct,  So you call the NOC, fill out the paperwork, and problem solved!  We now can send real time video, and pics.  And not rely on Cellular.

[Fubar]

Correct,  So you call the NOC, fill out the paperwork, and problem solved!  We now can send real time video, and pics.  And not rely on Cellular.

Of course the paperwork is filled out with the 5 day advance notice required by CAPR 60-1, section 2-3. As long as your emergencies are appropriately scheduled in advance, you're good to go!

Bottom line is the head comm guy does not want amateur radio used to fulfill CAP missions. Agree or disagree, he's the guy in charge.

[A.Member]

P25 only supports 9600 baud.... too slow for anything useful other than text messaging.

Just to show the math, a 5 MB photo would take 1 hour, 12 minutes and 48 seconds to transmit over 9600 baud. Unless you had a really important picture, it would be faster to simply land at the nearest airport, pull out a laptop and upload the photos into WIMRS.

You can send lower res. images unless the client wants a higher res. image.  Even then it doesn't take but a few minutes - nowhere near the time you suggest.  We've used SSTV to transfer images for years (doesn't everybody?).

[LTC Don]

For your reading pleasure:

http://www.army.mil/-news/2010/11/10/47962-situation-awareness-improves-with-new-system/


Here is an article from the Redstone Arsenal newspaper, on page 16 regarding GIIEP, much the same as the above article.

https://ams8.redstone.army.mil/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/PAO_PAGE_GROUP/PAO_COMMAND_PUBLICATIONS_PAGE/PAO_COMMAND_PUBS_CENTER_PORTLET/NOVEMBER%2017%2C%202010.PDF

Cheers,

[SARJunkie]

SSTV does not work on Narrowband

[LTC Don]

The Gateway Squadron in Missouri has a powerpoint presentation available from the Army on this system.  I would suggest someone in the know interpret this thing into English for the common Man. 

Download the file (it is in pptx format - Office 2007).  I could not get the viewer to work.

http://sites.google.com/site/capgatewaysquadron/professional-development-library

Here is a hi-res image of the kit from the 1AF photo archive:

http://www.1af.acc.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/110126-F-8080P-001.JPG


Cheers,

[Al Sayre]

CAP IC's and other as designated have an access code for cell dialing that gives them priority access to towers.

Cite?

No IC I have spoken to has been given one.

I have one.

[A.Member]

SSTV does not work on Narrowband

I'm a self proclaimed idiot when it comes to radios (ie. just tell me what frequency to turn it to and which button to push to talk).  So, I don't know narrowband, wideband, etc.   All I do know is that SSTV works on our dedicated VHF CAP frequencies just fine. 

[Major Lord]

Narrow band frequencies provide a narrower "tube" though which the data must pass. To send the same amount of information will require more time over a narrower channel. Most CAP people are probably not into SSTV, since its a little outdated, but it is roughly comparable to sending a FAX. Given enough time, you can send any resolution and size photo you want.

Major Lord

[A.Member]

Narrow band frequencies provide a narrower "tube" though which the data must pass. To send the same amount of information will require more time over a narrower channel. Most CAP people are probably not into SSTV, since its a little outdated, but it is roughly comparable to sending a FAX. Given enough time, you can send any resolution and size photo you want.

Major Lord

Agree that it is antiquated.  However, what it does offer is the ability to transmit and receive images over a frequency when other technology may not be available (ie cell service, internet, etc.).  As such, it's a technology that can be beneficial in a real emergency, even if it's not particularly glamorous.