GIIEPS - CAP goes high tech

[blackrain]

Thanks

As you said the market has to be there first.

Didn't think about the range issue. In the high flight levels you are 5 to 6 miles minimum (then only if directly overhead) from any ground stations even though long range line of site is readily available.

Still would be nice to have a way to call ATC in the event of comms failure even if not be able to call anyone else.

[SARJunkie]

All this, when our new expensive P25 radios are capable of simultaneous digital voice and data. 

HAHAHAHAHAHA...

[Hawk200]

The prohibition on cell phones in aircraft has jack to do with the aircraft and everything to do with the cell system not being able to handle a transmitter lighting up several hundred to thousands of towers at once.

Except that current cellphones don't work that way anymore (key word: anymore). The tower with the strongest signal is the one that the cellphone handshakes with. Towers have an identifier that the phone selects these days. It's more efficient, and conserves the phone's battery. That's why a cell phone smaller than a deck of cards and with far less power than older cells can have conversations for days, even a week, without needing constant recharging.

Cellphones now have more in common with a computer selecting a specific router than the old systems that would ping everything around it, and then select which one to use.

[RiverAux]

If this aircard is basically trying to get in touch with a cell tower, just how is this supposed to work in a disaster area where either the cell system is jammed with people calling each other or is down because of power loss or damage from the disaster itself?

[A.Member]

^ This.

Also, what about training, spare pool, and ongoing maintenance?

[Thom]

If this aircard is basically trying to get in touch with a cell tower, just how is this supposed to work in a disaster area where either the cell system is jammed with people calling each other or is down because of power loss or damage from the disaster itself?

Actually, speaking from the heart of Hurricane country, the mobile telephone networks are just about the least of our problems after a storm. The carriers have really done a commendable job (as well they should with all that money they are raking in...) of hardening their towers, their fiber backhaul links, and interconnect points. Really our experience after Katrina and since then has been that the cell towers are overloaded for about 2-6 hours after a storm passes, then the towers go dark somewhere between 24 and 48 hours after the storm, until about 24 hours later. That gap is the tower site generators running out of fuel and waiting for either utility power to return or the carrier to get a fuel truck to the site. The carriers also now have a bunch of their 'mobile tower' rigs that they can drive into an area, setup and start, all within a very short time.

Other than those small gaps, which are easy enough to work around if you know to plan in advance, the cellular networks are surprisingly reliable after a major storm down here.

All that said, we also need to maintain satellite (or P25...) capabilities for those times when the cellular networks are unavailable, for whatever reason. But the limited speed and high cost of those connections definitely makes them a fallback option, with the cellular data connection being the better first choice.

Also, the cellular data system can be used for all our other ADIS/SDIS missions which happen during the 99.93% of the year when there isn't a hurricane and the cellular networks are not down.



Thom

[Spaceman3750]

The carriers also now have a bunch of their 'mobile tower' rigs that they can drive into an area, setup and start, all within a very short time.

They use those at the state fair here every year to keep the infrastructure near the area from falling apart. I also saw a Verizon mobile tower deployed in front of AT&T offices once. I got a pretty big kick out of that every time I drove to a meeting until it disappeared one day.

All in all, cell providers have done a lot to speed disaster recovery, but we still need to at least have something on the shelf we can use when something really bad happens.

[Hawk200]

If this aircard is basically trying to get in touch with a cell tower, just how is this supposed to work in a disaster area where either the cell system is jammed with people calling each other or is down because of power loss or damage from the disaster itself?

Right after Katrina passed through Mississippi, cell phone service was still available. Many people called within an hour of the storm passing. A guy there was talking to his mother, and she three way called my Dad's home phone so I could leave a message.

As someone pointed out above, a generator could run out of fuel. Other than that, cell service infrastructure was relatively undamaged. Many people still had home phone service

Supposedly, someone there had a satellite phone, and was letting people make calls with it. I never ran into him, but I could see how it could be handy. I would have hated to see his bill, though.

[cap235629]

CAP IC's and other as designated have an access code for cell dialing that gives them priority access to towers.

[A.Member]

A localized issue like Katrina/rita is one thing.  A national issue like 9/11 is another.  As was pointed out 99% of the time cell service is a fine option.  But it's that 1% that can be really important in a time of need.

[SARJunkie]

CAP IC's and other as designated have an access code for cell dialing that gives them priority access to towers.

This is not a free system, or something we can just 'turn on' during a disaster.  its costs $10 a month per phone, then several cents per min.  at the curent time there are no CAP member son the system.   National wont ppay for it.   It has to be in place well before a disaster hits.

[SARJunkie]

Florida Wing did a test with GIIEP a while back. It didnt work, the system kept locking up when it lost cell signal.  It is FAR from reliable.   Yes the cell companies are getting better , but it still wont and not reliable in a  disaster.  and CAP isnt far enough up on the pecking order to get said 'priority service'  we are NOT first responders!

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

CAP IC's and other as designated have an access code for cell dialing that gives them priority access to towers.

This is not a free system, or something we can just 'turn on' during a disaster.  its costs $10 a month per phone, then several cents per min.  at the curent time there are no CAP member son the system.   National wont ppay for it.   It has to be in place well before a disaster hits.

And I thought I had just not been issued my secret code yet

[JoeTomasone]

Ever hear of Government exceptions?

Cite?

[JoeTomasone]

CAP IC's and other as designated have an access code for cell dialing that gives them priority access to towers.

Cite?

No IC I have spoken to has been given one.

[SARJunkie]

CAP IC's and other as designated have an access code for cell dialing that gives them priority access to towers.

Cite?

No IC I have spoken to has been given one.

I think they are referring to GETS:  http://gets.ncs.gov/   

Only the 'super secret pukes' at NTC have activated accounts...

National will never give all IC's this capability.  Its like an open credit card subject to miss use. it does cost per min and month per phone.

In order for the system to work you have to have telephone infrastructure in place.  its not a guarantee, and it wont 'Bump' someone off the network so you can make a call.

[N Harmon]

Only the 'super secret pukes' at NTC have activated accounts...

Not true. I have an activated GETS account, and am not affiliated in any way with the NTC.

[dbaran]

Folks - let me provide a bit of info, as I'm the guy who was doing the work on using the air cards for National.

First of all, because they use commercially licensed frequencies (cell), they fall under the FCC rules.  The FCC rules for the old analog frequency space (below 1 GHz) still prohibit use from airplanes, and I have confirmed this with the FCC themselves.  Doesn't matter if we're CAP or not, as long as there isn't an emergency.  If there is an emergency, you can use any frequency if you have to.

AT&T, Verizon, etc. used to have analog cellular, and with the shutdown of analog service, they've reused the frequencies for digital cell.   The modulation doesn't matter to the FCC - but the frequency space does, and the old space is still covered under the "no airborne use restriction" clause.  Again, I confirmed this myself with the FCC.  Two or three year old phones may well be legal - if they cannot use frequencies below 1 GHz for communications, they're legal.  Unfortunately, everything made in the past 3-4 years can, so you can't really buy something air legal any more.

The reason that Sprint was able to allow airborne use of their data cards is because they didn't have analog space there that is used by current phones.  All of their < 1 GHz stuff was for Nextel, which uses an entirely different modulation and isn't supported by the wireless data card vendors. 

Now, I know that there are a lot of public service agencies out there that are using air cards in fixed wing airplanes that aren't Sprint.  I also know from friends that it is possible to use cell phones for data service (tethering, or the Android hot spot) very successfully on some of the carriers at all sorts of altitudes.    Unfortunately, because of the FCC frequency rules, doing so in the absence of an actual emergency (i.e., during a SAREX isn't an emergency, HLS isn't an emergency in most cases, etc.) would be illegal, and this is why CAP doesn't allow it now.  This has been communicated to some Wings that have asked, but wider dissemination of this is something that I've asked for so we don't have unfortunate surprises.

Is it possible to use other carriers?  Absolutely.  If we had the cooperation of the carrier's engineering department, they could create a service book for our accounts that would tell the phone not to use the < 1 GHz frequencies.  I had zero luck getting through the call centers for AT&T, TMobile, and Verizon - if you have contacts to their engineering department and could get cooperation, please PM me.

I also talked to the companies that make the cards, which are resold by the carriers.  None of them provided a way for someone other than the carrier to restrict output on frequencies below 1 GHz.  I explained why we wanted that capability, and was told that they might add it in the future, but the carriers really called the shots.    With 550 airplanes, even if we bought a system for each airplane, we aren't large enough to be anything more than a rounding error in terms of importance to the carriers.

Unfortunately, our testing of Sprint while in the air showed that it wasn't a great solution.  Like most cell carriers, they angle their antennas down towards the ground where their customers are.  This produces a very weak airborne signal, and it wasn't reliable  above about 1000 AGL.  We continue to look for ways to make it work better, but haven't found a decent solution to the problem yet.

We know that the hams can do it beautifully with DSTAR, but  that doesn't work for CAP for all the reasons that have been beaten to death previously.

[Spaceman3750]

Or as someone mentioned previously, we could put P25 to work...

[SARJunkie]

P25 only supports 9600 baud.... too slow for anything useful other than text messaging.