Civil Air Patrol and knifes

[ol'fido]

Well first they have to establish what a survival knife is. My understanding of a survival knife is a hollow handle with items in it, large blade with wire cutter (the knotch on the back). What I have is a fighting knife, not a double blade or anything. Attached is a link to the closest thing I can find to my knife.

http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=6698&tabid=548&catid=2661

Hollow Handles. I think I just threw up a littles in my mouth.

Hollow handled knives are inherently weak. Even ones from Parrish or Randall are weaker that full tang knives. There is one company that makes a hollow handled knife that is machined from one piece of steel that is very strong but the seeming utility of carrying items in your knife handle is outweighed by the disadvantages.

I prefer a very solid FULL TANG knife for outdoors work.

[BTCS1*]

By "not work" I meant not IAW the task guide.

[Major Lord]

Well first they have to establish what a survival knife is. My understanding of a survival knife is a hollow handle with items in it, large blade with wire cutter (the knotch on the back). What I have is a fighting knife, not a double blade or anything. Attached is a link to the closest thing I can find to my knife.

http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=6698&tabid=548&catid=2661

Hollow Handles. I think I just threw up a littles in my mouth.

Hollow handled knives are inherently weak. Even ones from Parrish or Randall are weaker that full tang knives. There is one company that makes a hollow handled knife that is machined from one piece of steel that is very strong but the seeming utility of carrying items in your knife handle is outweighed by the disadvantages.

I prefer a very solid FULL TANG knife for outdoors work.

You never can tell when you might need that fishing line and hook on a ground team......As a ground team leader, I don't ever having to do any emergency fishing. Plus, don't forget the cool un-readable plastic compass on the butt cap of the K-Mart Rambo blade......My field knife is a Cold Steel Recon Tanto (full tang, naturally) Daily carry knife is a Cold Steel folder.

Major Lord

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Normal  day to day carry knife is a CRKT folder, field knife is a USAF survival knife with a 5'' blade. There is no need for anything more.

[ol'fido]

I use a Cold Steel Master Hunter. For a couple of years I have been trying to get a $10 Ontario Knives 7 1/2" butcher knife cut down to a 5" spearpoint off an article I saw in the Backwoodsman Magazine.

[Senior]

A better definition of a survival knife would be a knife designed to do multiple task in an emergency situation.  The "hollow handle" is just a design facet that allowed the carry of emergency items in one package.  A "Randall Made Knife"
hollow handle knife is a partial tang construction or used to be.  Randall has a book that explains all the knife designs, ideas and history.  A really good read.
Bo Randall was in Civil Air Patrol during the war.
The Ka-Bar knife is a utility field knife and I wouldn't worry if a cadet had one.
Does the cadet/senior know how use the knife/tool/etool correctly so they don't hurt themselves or others?  That is the question we should ask ourselves.  I know cadets that are MATURE enough to use the tools they have and not hurt themselves or others.  If they don't know how to use the tools they have they should be taught.  I carry a couple Leathermans, and USAF Pilot Survival Knife in my pack.
A "Rambo" knife in my opinion would be very large in all aspects and fantasy looking.  If someone had a knife like that I would tell them to put it away.

[RRLE]

Real Rambo Knives

[lordmonar]

However the Ka-Bar does not work because it may be considered a "survival" knife.

Why would that mean it would not work?

He's saying that it doesn't meet the task guide restrictions for a knife because it could be considered a "'rambo' type survival knife". That said, I don't generally advocate them, my pocket knife does what I need a knife to do without having to carry a huge blade. One of the cadets in my squadron had one in his field gear and we asked him to take it out - he had another knife anyways and it tends to present a bad image (hard-kewl, etc) within CAP.

e. Restrictions on Knives: You may only wear a sheath knife if authorized by your team leader. Sheath
knives cannot have a blade longer than 6" or a total length of greater than 11". The sheath must adequately
secure the knife and protect the wearer from the blade. If authorized, sheath knives will be worn only on the
pistol belt or carried inside the pack. The following knife types are not authorized: boot knives, butterfly
knives, switch blades, double edged knives, "Rambo" style survival knives, or knives with retracting sheaths.
Machetes or hatchets can only be carried by senior members when needed for that specific sortie. No knives
may be visible when the member is performing crash sight surveillance duty.

The restiction on survival knives....is only on "Rambo" style surival knives.....which I take to mean any knife that designed to "Look" bad ass but in fact is next to worthless in the field.

Bottom line....ask your team leader and press on.

[coloncapfl]

I understand that this subject has not been replied in almost a year, I don't know if there is a new thread on it or not, but I know that there was an issue that was brought up but not defined in this thread and it was the fact about the Guide used as a regulatory document outside of ES and the answer is on CAPR 900-3 where states

2. Other Dangerous Weapons. Other than as provided for in paragraph 1 above, members engaged in CAP activities are prohibited from possessing or using weapons as defined by local state statutes as "dangerous."

a 6" blade knife is considered nationwide as dangerous, or even a knife over 3", regardless if it is legal or not the regulation prohibits any item considered as dangerous weapon. Therefore the regs are more rigorous in this matter. I just felt that I didn't see this question answer. Even though this regulation is for assisting Law Enforcement the reg says ANY CAP activity. of course the exception is when another Reg authorizes in an specific situation like ES. I hope I have explained myself correctly and if I am wrong then please feel free to clarify.
Thank you

[Майор Хаткевич]

You're saying my ubercool combat survival knife (S&W SAR) is not allowed? But it's ubercool!

[Eclipse]

a 6" blade knife is considered nationwide as dangerous, or even a knife over 3", regardless if it is legal or not the regulation prohibits any item considered as dangerous weapon.

Where are you getting that?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Eclipse,

The laws of each sate define that.

Usually they agree that any knife with a blade larger than 3 inches is a dangerous weapon.

See http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-dangerous-weapon.htm

And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_weapon

And http://definitions.uslegal.com/d/deadly-weapon

Flyer

[davidsinn]

Eclipse,

The laws of each sate define that.

Usually they agree that any knife with a blade larger than 3 inches is a dangerous weapon.

See http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-dangerous-weapon.htm

And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_weapon

And http://definitions.uslegal.com/d/deadly-weapon

Flyer

Indiana does not have a length limit at all. They only restrict types of knifes.

[Eclipse]

Yeah, I get that, but in this context, we'll get wrapped around the axles as to what's dangerous and what's not.
When we start wandering into the "regardless of whether it's legal or not", we're done, because the entirely of the conversation is subjective.

Suffice to say, most members would do well with a Leatherman or your basic flip out, and rarely is a machete or even a KA-Bar ever necessary.

[Devil Doc]

You mean i as a law abiding citizen cant carry my Mini K-Bar, my Gerber Multitool, or my Gerber Flip Blade? What a CROC!!

[Stonewall]

For my FLWG brethren:

Florida Supreme Court says...

...folding knives with a blade length of 4" or less are common pocket knives.

Below is what Florida law says about knives in everyday English.

What is Legal to Own

• Balisong knives are legal.
• Belt knives, cane knives, and other disguised knives are legal.
• Bowie knives and other large knives are legal.
• Throwing stars and throwing knives are legal.
• Undetectable knives (knives that will not set off metal detectors) are legal.
• Ballistic knives are illegal.

The law does not limit individuals from owning, selling, or buying any knife except for ballistic knives.

Limits on Carry

• You can open carry any knife.
• Box cutters, multi-tools, and other work knives are legal to carry concealed.
• In most cases, conceal carry of a common pocket knife with a blade of less than 4 inches is legal.
• Anything outside of this has not been expressly banned or allowed.

For the most part, Florida knife laws are easy. You can own any knife as long as it is not a ballistic knife and, if you keep your knives at home, you should be fine. You can also open carry any knife you want. You can conceal carry any box cutter, multi-tool, or 4 inch pocket knife. Conceal carry of any other type of knife can or can not be considered carrying a concealed weapon so watch out.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Eclipse,

Agree with you in this issue.

I have a Gerber.

The United states, for its most part, is not a jungle or heavily forested area in which most members will actually need it. Unless they do a search in The Everglades or parts of Alaska, and some other few areas in the US, most members only need a Gerber or Leatherman... or the ol' Swiss Army tool...

Flyer

[Eclipse]

One of the problems we are still fighting is the drop knife that was featured on the Ground Team web gear for years on the old Civil Air Patrol Supply Depot web page.
Few cadets allive today would have ever seen those images, but their some commanders still think it's 1972.

[lordmonar]

Bottom line is.......legal or not........it is the chain of command's job to make the call.

SM X is sporting a 24" machete for his UDF ground team.......in his pack and out of sight.....maybe over kill.
SM Y is sporting a full on K-Bar in plain view on his ground team gear........so long as he is not doing "site security/survailance"....it is okay be regs.

Use your good judgement and press on.

[Stonewall]

Bottom, bottom line, is use good judgment AND know your state and local laws.  Not only that, but what may be legal/legit in Florida may not be when you're at NESA.

WIWAC, if you didn't have the Gerber Mark II, you weren't legit, period