Are Civil Air Patrol cadets allowed to have knifes for an ftx?I heard,that the knife could only be 3 inches,but then I heard 7 inches.So Im just wondering,how long is your knife and what s the brand name?Thanks for the help! :D
General rule of thumb is nothing bigger than the palm of your hand.
Better than a general rule of hand .. that it not be longer than your thumb. ;)
Cadets, or most anyone, do not need a KA-BAR for a training exercise, or the real mission for that matter. It's just another piece of equipment to be hard kewl and then "everyone" has to get one because "xxxx has one" kinda thing.
The rule is actually written somewhere, maybe the training guide.
No more than a 3 inch blade or 7 inches total. I have been in CAP ES for a lot of years, I carry a leatherman and a typical folding pocket knife.
a2capt had it right, I always use 3 fingers the thumb is about the same.
Just remember you aren't hacking your way through the jungle, you are cutting paracord or some other task that takes more that fingernail clippers but less than a steak knife.
UDF/GT Task Guide:
"e. Restrictions on Knives: You may only wear a sheath knife if authorized by your team leader. Sheath
knives cannot have a blade longer than 6" or a total length of greater than 11". The sheath must adequately
secure the knife and protect the wearer from the blade. If authorized, sheath knives will be worn only on the
pistol belt or carried inside the pack. The following knife types are not authorized: boot knives, butterfly
knives, switch blades, double edged knives, "Rambo" style survival knives, or knives with retracting sheaths.
Machetes or hatchets can only be carried by senior members when needed for that specific sortie. No knives
may be visible when the member is performing crash sight surveillance duty. "
Exactly. I have two knives that I bring with me when my squadron bivouacs. The first is a pocket knife I bought for about $15 that I use for pretty much everything, from fire making to shelter building. The other is a fixed blade I keep in my 72h pack. Does it ever come out? Rarely. Is it within regs? Yes, the blade is 6 inches and its overall is 10.5 inches.
edit: Is it a beautiful knife? Heck yeah!
Our Group established a policy that only SM's can carry fixed-blade knives. Cadets can carry folding knives.
And as far as the "Kewl" factor, testosterone requires competition. We have found cadets comparing how many specialty blades their pocket knives have-- like a cadet is ever going to need a corkscrew!
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 11, 2011, 05:13:21 AM
UDF/GT Task Guide:
"e. Restrictions on Knives: You may only wear a sheath knife if authorized by your team leader. Sheath
knives cannot have a blade longer than 6" or a total length of greater than 11". The sheath must adequately
secure the knife and protect the wearer from the blade. If authorized, sheath knives will be worn only on the
pistol belt or carried inside the pack. The following knife types are not authorized: boot knives, butterfly
knives, switch blades, double edged knives, "Rambo" style survival knives, or knives with retracting sheaths.
Machetes or hatchets can only be carried by senior members when needed for that specific sortie. No knives
may be visible when the member is performing crash sight surveillance duty. "
Beat me to it, Sir! I had it pulled up and was just about to post it. :clap:
As far as the need for actual field knives, it's one of those things that are occasionally useful, and therefore a good thing to have in your gear. I carry a Winchester field knife my uncle gave me. It's got a 4 1/2-inch blade, and comes in at just under 10 inches if I remember correctly. I've used it occasionally to chop small firewood or to prepare my favorite helping of SPAM, but as other members have said, you won't be hacking through brush with it. If the need to do so ever arises, that's when the SMs pull out their machetes. ;D
A Cadet needing a corkscrew? Hey.. you never know when a knot might need to be dug out of deadwood to slide something through the hole. A corkscrew can help with that!
QuoteWe have found cadets comparing how many specialty blades their pocket knives have
And the winner is: http://www.geekologie.com/2006/08/wenger_introduces_the_super_ul.php (http://www.geekologie.com/2006/08/wenger_introduces_the_super_ul.php)
^Whoa... :o
Quote from: a2capt on January 11, 2011, 03:58:56 PM
A Cadet needing a corkscrew? Hey.. you never know when a knot might need to be dug out of deadwood to slide something through the hole. A corkscrew can help with that!
Whiskey - Tango - Foxtrot -- over.
Best idea is a folding lock blade style knife. Can't close accidentally on fingers but get the paracord cut done. ;)
We had it as a written policy at one squadron and finally 2b'd a cadet because he refused to not carry varieties of survival knives. Mommy during the hearing? "I've been in lots of situations where his knives have saved our lives".
Of course, she couldn't actually NAME one of them.......
Saved lives.. lots of situations. LOL. Maybe they are related to that extreme guy from down under.
But then again, they have a whole TV production team including first aid rig and vehicles following.
It is simple really.
Fixed blade knives have their place.....and if you feel naked in the woods with out.....put it IN your pack.
That's what I tell my ground teams.
I have no problem with cadets participating in GSAR having knives so long as they stay inside of the regulations, 6 inch blade, no longer than 11 inches total. I can think of a few situations where a fixed blade survival type knife
This
(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/3392/755tl.jpg) (http://img4.imageshack.us/i/755tl.jpg/)
Not this
(http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/2305/bigclawfulltanggreygira.jpg) (http://img262.imageshack.us/i/bigclawfulltanggreygira.jpg/)
could be of better use than a pocket knife. I couldn't imagine having a curriculum for S&R where we expect cadets to be prepared to be lost for a day and survive and not allow them to have a knife in that situation. One of the things that we all have to know (cadets included) is how to setup a shelter. Granted this can be done in most situations with just a poncho and 550 cord. However there are things to do when lost that would be easier done with a fixed blade than a pocket knife.
Besides is anyone going to allow a cadet on a GSAR that they don't trust with a knife?
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 12, 2011, 08:48:39 PM
Besides is anyone going to allow a cadet on a GSAR that they don't trust with a knife?
:clap:
If you want someone to get the job done then they need the tools.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 12, 2011, 08:48:39 PM
(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/3392/755tl.jpg)
You call
that a knife?
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSrA8BFabu9zXNZiH1o1RyoHgAU17dPQuHwg9EvpsMWUoWK_wWP)
THIS is a knife!
No, this is a knife.
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/138/sporksull.jpg) (http://img441.imageshack.us/i/sporksull.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 12, 2011, 09:16:29 PM
No, this is a knife.
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/138/sporksull.jpg) (http://img441.imageshack.us/i/sporksull.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
SPORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
8) >:D
Quote from: Eclipse on January 12, 2011, 09:14:03 PM
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSrA8BFabu9zXNZiH1o1RyoHgAU17dPQuHwg9EvpsMWUoWK_wWP)
SPOON!!!
I see you've played "knifey-spoonie" before!
http://www.hostedfile.com/videos/4983/simpsons-knifey-spooney.html
A nice little sheath knife that is very handy but doesn't appear to be in the "hard kewl" arena is the Cold Steel Master Hunter with Kydex sheath. It has a 4", full tang blade; lanyard hole; rubberized grip; and a spine that is about 1/4" where it meets the grip. It's a carbon blade so that you have to keep it well oiled but I prefer carbon blades. Just a very utilitarian blade.
Another good knife for ground teams is one of the Victornox lockbacks. They are a bit larger than your standard "Swiss Army" knife but very useful. I believe the model I have is called the Rucksack. It also has one of the better saw blades on the market.
this might come as a bizarre question but ill give it a shot.
if some one is using their member owned vehicle in a mission, can they have an out of reg knife/tool in said vehicle?
I myself keep a crow bar and sledge hammer in my car, I don't usually use said vehicle on missions but I felt like asking.
Quote from: SABRE17 on January 13, 2011, 12:35:14 AM
this might come as a bizarre question but ill give it a shot.
if some one is using their member owned vehicle in a mission, can they have an out of reg knife/tool in said vehicle?
I myself keep a crow bar and sledge hammer in my car, I don't usually use said vehicle on missions but I felt like asking.
That is a bit of an odd subject being that sometimes that sort of thing is just flat illegal. I wouldn't keep something in my car just so that I could have it semi handy, that to me would still be an integrity issue.
After watching a state trooper unable to break a window, of a car that was on fire, using only his Maglight. i thought it would best to keep something useful in my Subaru...
hows it illegal?
Quote from: SABRE17 on January 13, 2011, 12:46:21 AM
After watching a state trooper unable to break a window, of a car that was on fire, using only his Maglight. i thought it would best to keep something useful in my Subaru...
hows it illegal?
His idea of a tool and your idea of a tool are two different things... A crowbar or sledge in your car would be ok.
Quote from: SABRE17 on January 13, 2011, 12:46:21 AM
After watching a state trooper unable to break a window, of a car that was on fire, using only his Maglight. i thought it would best to keep something useful in my Subaru...
hows it illegal?
In some states just having a large knife in your vehicle is illegal, especially if it is under the seat or in the glove box. Some businesses like Cook INC. or Boston Scientific INC. say that they will have your vehicle towed and press charges if you have a weapon of any type in your vehicle.
If you are wanting something in your vehicle to bust glass or cut seat belts, the best thing is that tool. There are many tools on the market that are made to break glass and cut seat belts.
No matter what your state law is, I still wouldn't hide something in your vehicle instead of carrying it on your person just because you know you aren't allowed to carry it, that is just the same as trying to get around a regulation, which is an integrity violation anyways. Just have what you are allowed to have, and leave the rest at home.
Quote from: SABRE17 on January 13, 2011, 12:35:14 AM
this might come as a bizarre question but ill give it a shot.
if some one is using their member owned vehicle in a mission, can they have an out of reg knife/tool in said vehicle?
I myself keep a crow bar and sledge hammer in my car, I don't usually use said vehicle on missions but I felt like asking.
Of course.
One must heed Falstaff in these situations.
I carry several items in my vehicle that might be frowned upon if I carried it on a mission. Machete, pepper spray, axe etc. I use it in my line of work but would never attempt to carry it in my 24 hour gear. However if there happened to be a pressing need for and axe or machete or pepper spray it would be rather handy to have at a mission would it not? >:D
Quote from: commando1 on January 13, 2011, 04:17:34 AM
I carry several items in my vehicle that might be frowned upon if I carried it on a mission. Machete, pepper spray, axe etc. I use it in my line of work but would never attempt to carry it in my 24 hour gear. However if there happened to be a pressing need for and axe or machete or pepper spray it would be rather handy to have at a mission would it not? >:D
Is an axe allowed? I think one machete is allowed by the GTL, and only in areas where it would actually be needed. However, an axe, by axe I mean small like a tomahawk, would that be a huge no-go for the GTL to carry? I would think it should be ok, only should. That does not mean that it is though.
manfredvonrichthofen,
Here's a quote from the GTM/UDFT Task Guide. Hope this answers your question.
Quotee. Restrictions on Knives: You may only wear a sheath knife if authorized by your team leader. Sheath
knives cannot have a blade longer than 6" or a total length of greater than 11". The sheath must adequately
secure the knife and protect the wearer from the blade. If authorized, sheath knives will be worn only on the
pistol belt or carried inside the pack. The following knife types are not authorized: boot knives, butterfly
knives, switch blades, double edged knives, "Rambo" style survival knives, or knives with retracting sheaths.
Machetes or hatchets can only be carried by senior members when needed for that specific sortie. No knives
may be visible when the member is performing crash sight surveillance duty.
Quote from: GTCommando on January 13, 2011, 12:41:41 PM
manfredvonrichthofen,
Here's a quote from the GTM/UDFT Task Guide. Hope this answers your question.
Quotee. Restrictions on Knives: You may only wear a sheath knife if authorized by your team leader. Sheath
knives cannot have a blade longer than 6" or a total length of greater than 11". The sheath must adequately
secure the knife and protect the wearer from the blade. If authorized, sheath knives will be worn only on the
pistol belt or carried inside the pack. The following knife types are not authorized: boot knives, butterfly
knives, switch blades, double edged knives, "Rambo" style survival knives, or knives with retracting sheaths.
Machetes or hatchets can only be carried by senior members when needed for that specific sortie. No knives
may be visible when the member is performing crash sight surveillance duty.
I was pretty sure I had seen something to that effect in the GTM/UDF Guide, thank you for finding that I haven't had time to look yet. So from that I take it that it would be ok to have a hatchet in the base gear and not take it on the sortie? I can think of some nice things to do in Base Camp with a machete like chopping some fire wood.
It sounds like the regs are trying to restrict what you wear/carry on your person, not every thing that might be in your vehicle in the parking lot.
I'd wager that a large number of us routinely carry quite a few "preparedness" items in our vehicles that are either not allowed, or not needed, on most GT or UDF sorties. That doesn't mean I'm going to remove all of those items before I respond to a mission base. I'm just going to do what I do everywhere else: leave the stuff in the truck that isn't required or allowed at the event I'm attending.
FYI, locally we have Law Enforcement Officer members who will arrive in their patrol vehicle. You don't want to start counting the number of "verboten" items they have stored in those! But they leave them in the car while they go out on the sortie and everyone is happy.
Simple.
Thom
^What he said. If it's in your car, it shouldn't be an issue. In TX, you're legally allowed to have illegal knives in your car, as long as they stay in your car. So, if knives, hatchets, crow bars, etc stay in your car on a mission, you're fine. Now as soon as you take them out of your car and carry them in your pack/on your person, then you're breaking regs, and possibly the law. While the state of TX says that I can have an illegal knife in my car or home or while going between the two, once I start walking around in public with it, I'm breaking the law.
So leave it in the car or, unless you need it in your car, leave it at home.
Honest question: Why do we think that the language from the GTM/UDFT Task Guide is regulatory or in any way affects what members must do or not do when they are not students at NESA?
Quote from: Ned on January 13, 2011, 04:00:03 PM
Honest question: Why do we think that the language from the GTM/UDFT Task Guide is regulatory or in any way affects what members must do or not do when they are not students at NESA?
Well, this may be wrong, but the CAP Knowledgebase (http://capnhq.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/capnhq.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=680) seems to imply the task guide is regulatory.
Quote from: Ned on January 13, 2011, 04:00:03 PM
Honest question: Why do we think that the language from the GTM/UDFT Task Guide is regulatory or in any way affects what members must do or not do when they are not students at NESA?
Because it's a mandatory carry item for GTMs and it's all we have for guidance in this area.
We could probably fill several volumes with things you should know for GT/UDF that are not in the task guide.
Quote from: Ned on January 13, 2011, 04:00:03 PM
Honest question: Why do we think that the language from the GTM/UDFT Task Guide is regulatory or in any way affects what members must do or not do when they are not students at NESA?
What does NESA have to do with this?
The GT / UDF book is the bible of Groupd ops in the same way that the aircrew task book is the bible of air ops. That is where the detail of all the tasking is found, your sign-offs are supposed to be tracked, and is required equipment for both types of crews.
Of course it is regulatory.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2011, 12:46:15 AM
What does NESA have to do with this?
Because it was developed as part of the curriculum (if the cover is to be believed.)
QuoteThe GT / UDF book is the bible of Groupd ops in the same way that the aircrew task book is the bible of air ops. That is where the detail of all the tasking is found, your sign-offs are supposed to be tracked, and is required equipment for both types of crews.
Of course it is regulatory.
Obviously schools like NESA can set any curriculum and standards they would like.
But if I am not in the school and not engaged in an AFAM or even a local emergency services mission, why should I reasonably believe that I am bound by a "task guide."?
IOW, if I am not engaged in "ground ops" and trying to get something signed off, why would I think I was somehow regulated by a "task guide?"
If a senior brought a double-edged knife or other knife purportedly restricted by the task guide on a squadron bivouac, a commander could certainly tell them to put it away or whatever.
But I'm not understanding how a "task guide" for GTLs can be regulatory in nature, especially for folks who are not GTL's engaged in the tasks described in the guide.
What am I missing?
Quote from: Ned on January 14, 2011, 01:14:49 AMBut if I am not in the school and not engaged in an AFAM or even a local emergency services mission, why should I reasonably believe that I am bound by a "task guide."?
I thought you were talking about ground ops outside of NESA. If you are talking about non-ES activities, then there is no reason to believe the task guide applies.
An excellent knife that falls within all CAP regs is the Quartermaster Knife by Ontario. Exactly 6 inch blade, and under the overall length. It has 2 restraints on the sheath and is a tough knife. I have carried one on all of my deployments and if I loved it anymore, my wife might take issue.
Quote from: GroundHawg on January 15, 2011, 11:11:33 PM
An excellent knife that falls within all CAP regs is the Quartermaster Knife by Ontario. Exactly 6 inch blade, and under the overall length. It has 2 restraints on the sheath and is a tough knife. I have carried one on all of my deployments and if I loved it anymore, my wife might take issue.
That's not a knife...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9gn6KLa5xtY/Smh1byWzcbI/AAAAAAAAEtU/23T3FC68qN8/s1600/CrocodileDundeeWithKnife)
Now THAT'S a knife!
Sorry, nobody's gone there yet, I couldn't resist.
Quote from: PhotogPilot on January 20, 2011, 05:52:57 PM
Quote from: GroundHawg on January 15, 2011, 11:11:33 PM
An excellent knife that falls within all CAP regs is the Quartermaster Knife by Ontario. Exactly 6 inch blade, and under the overall length. It has 2 restraints on the sheath and is a tough knife. I have carried one on all of my deployments and if I loved it anymore, my wife might take issue.
That's not a knife...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9gn6KLa5xtY/Smh1byWzcbI/AAAAAAAAEtU/23T3FC68qN8/s1600-h/CrocodileDundeeWithKnife)
Now THAT'S a knife!
Sorry, nobody's gone there yet, I couldn't resist.
Oh, we have already played knifey spooney.
Quote from: PhotogPilot on January 20, 2011, 05:52:57 PM
Quote from: GroundHawg on January 15, 2011, 11:11:33 PM
An excellent knife that falls within all CAP regs is the Quartermaster Knife by Ontario. Exactly 6 inch blade, and under the overall length. It has 2 restraints on the sheath and is a tough knife. I have carried one on all of my deployments and if I loved it anymore, my wife might take issue.
That's not a knife...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9gn6KLa5xtY/Smh1byWzcbI/AAAAAAAAEtU/23T3FC68qN8/s1600/CrocodileDundeeWithKnife)
Now THAT'S a knife!
Sorry, nobody's gone there yet, I couldn't resist.
See page 2, we won't mind if you read the
whole thread...
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2011, 12:46:15 AM
The GT / UDF book is the bible of Groupd ops in the same way that the aircrew task book is the bible of air ops. That is where the detail of all the tasking is found, your sign-offs are supposed to be tracked, and is required equipment for both types of crews.
Of course it is regulatory.
It is not regulatory as it is neither a regulation or manual. It is simply a practical standard, that should be used to to determine if a person minimally demonstrates the knowledge required to carry out a task, no matter what part of the country they are from. Why minimally, because someone in Alaska needs to know how to dress for cold weather more than someone in Florida does, for example.
As a side note, the task guides were developed as part of the ES curriculum project and not by NESA.
Quote from: Larry Mangum on January 20, 2011, 06:09:17 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2011, 12:46:15 AM
The GT / UDF book is the bible of Groupd ops in the same way that the aircrew task book is the bible of air ops. That is where the detail of all the tasking is found, your sign-offs are supposed to be tracked, and is required equipment for both types of crews.
Of course it is regulatory.
It is not regulatory as it is neither a regulation or manual.
I would agree with that if CAP was consistent in their documentation, however there are any number of places where an "R" or "M" is missing from a document which requires compliance.
Possession of, and adherence to, the Task guide is required for both initial qualification and ongoing participation. That sounds pretty regulatory to me.
CAPR 60-3 paragraph 2-3d: "All personnel will conduct training using the standardized National task guides. Evaluators must ensure that trainees satisfactorily pass all requirements of a task contained in the task guide before certifying completion for the SQTR."
So as you can see they are required for training according to CAPR 60-3, but nowhere does it say they must be adhered to for participation. Of course the old adage "that we should train as we fight" should be adhered to, but no one can ever forsee all of the possible missions or situations we might wind up in.
Semper Gumby!
Quote from: Larry Mangum on January 20, 2011, 07:21:08 PM
CAPR 60-3 paragraph 2-3d: "All personnel will conduct training using the standardized National task guides. Evaluators must ensure that trainees satisfactorily pass all requirements of a task contained in the task guide before certifying completion for the SQTR."
So as you can see they are required for training according to CAPR 60-3, but nowhere does it say they must be adhered to for participation. Of course the old adage "that we should train as we fight" should be adhered to, but no one can ever forsee all of the possible missions or situations we might wind up in.
Semper Gumby!
Beat me to the punch. I would say that constant aherance to the training would be a requirement as well would it not?
I would hope so, but tactical flexibility, means we must not becomes so rigid in our training that we lose the ability to think outside of the box. Which means we need to plan FTX and SAREX's that are challenging and not just the same old thing time after time.
Not adhered to for participation?
So we train people to a standard and then say "now go do whatever you want to maintain flexibility?"
You train to the book, and refer to it in the field. If it isn't in the book, 99% of the time you should not do it.
Our approved operations do not vary so much as to need "audibles" very often, and there are few, if any, members who
have such a high ops tempo that they should be looking to get "creative".
"Creative" in CAP ES is usually the first step in "Seemed like a good idea at the time..."
Quote from: Eclipse on January 20, 2011, 07:48:14 PM
Not adhered to for participation? So we train people to a standard and then say "now go do whatever you want to maintain flexibility?" You train to the book, and refer to it in the field. If it isn't in the book, 99% of the time you should not do it. Our approved operations do not vary so much as to need "audibles" very often, and there are few, if any, members who have such a high ops tempo that they should be looking to get "creative". "Creative" in CAP ES is usually the first step in "Seemed like a good idea at the time..."
Never said that we not adhere to our training while in actual missions nor that they should go go do whatever you want. What I said is that we must not become so rigid, we cannot see a way to accomplish the mission. The ability to think outside of the box is why the us military has been so successful. We train to high standards and hold people accountable to those standards, but we must also teach them to not be afraid to make suggestions or to think outside of the box.
Well of course not, but what has that got to with whether the GT Task manual is regulatory?
I do have issues with some of the material in the task guide but the biggest problem I see with it and our current GT training is that I see too many train "up" to the standard of the task guide and then say "Done!". They believe because they have reached that plateau that their training is over. They are "qualified". The training should never stop. You need to train to a standard beyond the task guide.
Quote from: ol'fido on January 20, 2011, 10:22:57 PM
I do have issues with some of the material in the task guide but the biggest problem I see with it and our current GT training is that I see too many train "up" to the standard of the task guide and then say "Done!". They believe because they have reached that plateau that their training is over. They are "qualified". The training should never stop. You need to train to a standard beyond the task guide.
You are right, we should train above the standard but that does not mean that because you are trained above the standard of the manual, that your blade length can go above the manual. Certain things need to be kept the standard and common sense should dictate what can and can't be messed with or added to.
^^
What one has to do with the other, I don't know. Blade length? On what?
I do not know what the technical definition of "regulatory" means. However, the task guide is worded as though it has the authority to "regulate" knives, and not just during training:
QuoteYou may only wear a sheath knife if authorized by your team leader. Sheath knives cannot have a blade longer than 6" or a total length of greater than 11". The sheath must adequately secure the knife and protect the wearer from the blade. If authorized, sheath knives will be worn only on the pistol belt or carried inside the pack. The following knife types are not authorized: boot knives, butterfly knives, switch blades, double edged knives, "Rambo" style survival knives, or knives with retracting sheaths. Machetes or hatchets can only be carried by senior members when needed for that specific sortie. No knives may be visible when the member is performing crash sight surveillance duty.
Seems pretty clear, with no room for "outside the box" thinking, at least when it comes to knives.
Quote from: ol'fido on January 21, 2011, 04:03:05 AM
^^
What one has to do with the other, I don't know. Blade length? On what?
We're talking about knives. A couple of the posts suggest they think that if you can train above the standard, then you can have a longer knife. I was stating that it is not so, some standards cannot and should not be messed with. You can train above the standard of a ground team in aspects like search patterns, CPR (ie: infant CPR), hot and cold weather injuries, training above the standard is good, but just because you are trained above the standard doesn't mean that you can alter the uniform, or carry a Rambo knife or anything of the sort.
Please note, I was not endorsing the use of large knives, rather the statement that of course "task guides are regulatory" by Eclipse.
Quote from: Larry Mangum on January 21, 2011, 03:47:21 PM
Please note, I was not endorsing the use of large knives, rather the statement that of course "task guides are regulatory" by Eclipse.
I would have to say that task guides are regulatory as Eclipse said it. When you train, you train for many different things, and one of them being safety, now as we all know the idea of safety varies greatly from one person to the next. When you train you also have to train with the understanding that you are training in "perfect circumstances". As we all know real world missions are not at all perfect circumstances. Because of this the manual does allow one GTL to carry something of a machete on missions where it really could be of necessity. However, this necessity is not very common, especially around where I am. If it is common where you are then carrying a machete by one GTL would be common place and suggested. I wouldn't consider carrying anything over what the manual says.
As they are seen by the military, and us as well (in most cases) manuals are regulatory. The manual for D&C that we use is not a regulation, it is a manual, yet that is the only way facing movements are done, and is viewed as a regulation.
The purpose of the task guides was to standardize basic knowledge across CAP for GT/UDF, Aircrew, and Mission Base Staff. Therefore, a GT in Washington state has the same basic knowledge as a GT from Florida. Previously, the standard and content of the training was set by individual teams or groups, wings, or regions. However, the task guides are the minimum basic knowledge and should be a starting point for your training not the "limit" of it. Our hypothetical WA GT is going to need training above and beyond the task guide in some skill sets and completely different than the additional skill sets our FL team needs. Also, the teams may need items in its team and individual gear that are not listed in the task guide. Our WA team may need snow shovels and full size axes in its team gear while our FL team may mandate knee high rubber boots for everbody's individual gear. Granted, most teams will not need anything out of the ordinary in most circumstances, but we should allow common sense to dictate these things.
Quote from: ol'fido on January 21, 2011, 04:17:12 PM
The purpose of the task guides was to standardize basic knowledge across CAP for GT/UDF, Aircrew, and Mission Base Staff. Therefore, a GT in Washington state has the same basic knowledge as a GT from Florida. Previously, the standard and content of the training was set by individual teams or groups, wings, or regions. However, the task guides are the minimum basic knowledge and should be a starting point for your training not the "limit" of it. Our hypothetical WA GT is going to need training above and beyond the task guide in some skill sets and completely different than the additional skill sets our FL team needs. Also, the teams may need items in its team and individual gear that are not listed in the task guide. Our WA team may need snow shovels and full size axes in its team gear while our FL team may mandate knee high rubber boots for everbody's individual gear. Granted, most teams will not need anything out of the ordinary in most circumstances, but we should allow common sense to dictate these things.
Most definitely, locale and situation will dictate what is and isn't needed in your gear, even a chainsaw may be needed in your gear out in WA, OR, and ID, but I seriously doubt that an eleven inch blade Rambo knife would be necessary. Outfit your gear with what you NEED, not the absurd. If you need an eleven inch blade knife, it is time to just get a machete and an axe, because lets face it, they work better than a knife with an eleven inch blade.
I suspect part of the problem is we may be using slightly different definitions of the word "regulatory." My participation from earlier in the thread was based on a CP perspective.
If a cadet or a senior on a typical squadron bivouac (not an ES training mission, no one is being specifically trained on any GT tasks or "signed off" on anything) brings a 3-4" double-edged knife, have they violated a CAP rule?
From my perspective, if the task guide is "regulatory," it has the force of a regulation, and we could tell the member "yes, that double edged knife is against the rules, and you could be disciplined for possessing it at a CAP activity."
If the task guide does not have the force of regulation (is not "regulatory"), then we tell the member something like "well, if the squadron commander says it's OK, then it's OK. Be careful and have fun."
As a practical matter, members are bound by regulations in large part because we are all on notice as to what they are and where to go look at them if we are unsure what they say. It is problematic to take something that is not in the regulations and give it the full force of a regulation simply because the average member has no realistic way to figure out what it says and decide if it applies to them.
That's why I asked.
Thanks Ned, you stated it better then I did by a long shot.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 21, 2011, 04:43:31 PM
Quote from: ol'fido on January 21, 2011, 04:17:12 PM
The purpose of the task guides was to standardize basic knowledge across CAP for GT/UDF, Aircrew, and Mission Base Staff. Therefore, a GT in Washington state has the same basic knowledge as a GT from Florida. Previously, the standard and content of the training was set by individual teams or groups, wings, or regions. However, the task guides are the minimum basic knowledge and should be a starting point for your training not the "limit" of it. Our hypothetical WA GT is going to need training above and beyond the task guide in some skill sets and completely different than the additional skill sets our FL team needs. Also, the teams may need items in its team and individual gear that are not listed in the task guide. Our WA team may need snow shovels and full size axes in its team gear while our FL team may mandate knee high rubber boots for everbody's individual gear. Granted, most teams will not need anything out of the ordinary in most circumstances, but we should allow common sense to dictate these things.
Most definitely, locale and situation will dictate what is and isn't needed in your gear, even a chainsaw may be needed in your gear out in WA, OR, and ID, but I seriously doubt that an eleven inch blade Rambo knife would be necessary. Outfit your gear with what you NEED, not the absurd. If you need an eleven inch blade knife, it is time to just get a machete and an axe, because lets face it, they work better than a knife with an eleven inch blade.
At what point have I advocated the 11" Rambo knife? ???
Quote from: ol'fido on January 21, 2011, 08:32:02 PM
At what point have I advocated the 11" Rambo knife? ???
I never said you did. I was merely using eleven inches as an example.
I have 2 actually
1: Gerber Multi-tool
2: Ka-Bar style fighting knife. Blade is 5" and handle is around 4". So it is within regs.
However the Ka-Bar does not work because it may be considered a "survival" knife.
Quote from: BTCS1* on April 28, 2011, 01:44:40 AM
However the Ka-Bar does not work because it may be considered a "survival" knife.
Why would that mean it would not work?
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 28, 2011, 01:59:00 AM
Quote from: BTCS1* on April 28, 2011, 01:44:40 AM
However the Ka-Bar does not work because it may be considered a "survival" knife.
Why would that mean it would not work?
It may become a point of ridicule.
Quote from: HGjunkie on April 28, 2011, 01:59:51 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 28, 2011, 01:59:00 AM
Quote from: BTCS1* on April 28, 2011, 01:44:40 AM
However the Ka-Bar does not work because it may be considered a "survival" knife.
Why would that mean it would not work?
It may become a point of ridicule.
I could understand that. I just carry the USAF survival knife, five inch blade and five inch handle. Nothing more is needed by anyone. Except maybe a hatchet at times just for chopping some fire wood.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 28, 2011, 01:59:00 AM
Quote from: BTCS1* on April 28, 2011, 01:44:40 AM
However the Ka-Bar does not work because it may be considered a "survival" knife.
Why would that mean it would not work?
He's saying that it doesn't meet the task guide restrictions for a knife because it could be considered a "'rambo' type survival knife". That said, I don't generally advocate them, my pocket knife does what I need a knife to do without having to carry a huge blade. One of the cadets in my squadron had one in his field gear and we asked him to take it out - he had another knife anyways and it tends to present a bad image (hard-kewl, etc) within CAP.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 28, 2011, 02:05:56 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 28, 2011, 01:59:00 AM
Quote from: BTCS1* on April 28, 2011, 01:44:40 AM
However the Ka-Bar does not work because it may be considered a "survival" knife.
Why would that mean it would not work?
He's saying that it doesn't meet the task guide restrictions for a knife because it could be considered a "'rambo' type survival knife". That said, I don't generally advocate them, my pocket knife does what I need a knife to do without having to carry a huge blade. One of the cadets in my squadron had one in his field gear and we asked him to take it out - he had another knife anyways and it tends to present a bad image (hard-kewl, etc) within CAP.
Oh ok, I didn't think of it being Rambo style so I didn't think about that. I don't know what the knife looks like, otherwise I would have agreed right away. Sorry for the unruly banter. ;)
This is a Ka-Bar:
(http://www.usmcstore.com/images/Ka-Bar/Ka-bar.gif)
I have known several Ka-Bar knives. To me a Ka-Bar knife is any knife made by the company Ka-Bar. This could mean any knife ranging from a folding pocket knife to a machete. Even my USAF survival knife is made by Ka-Bar. Sorry for the confusion.
They say one of the greatest barriers to communication is a different understanding of a single term.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 28, 2011, 02:21:08 AM
They say one of the greatest barriers to communication is a different understanding of a single term.
Sounds like a quote out of my leadership book.
Quote from: HGjunkie on April 28, 2011, 02:25:15 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 28, 2011, 02:21:08 AM
They say one of the greatest barriers to communication is a different understanding of a single term.
Sounds like a quote out of my leadership book.
Oooh, good catch. I know it was something close from the Leadership 2000 and beyond from WIWAC.
Well first they have to establish what a survival knife is. My understanding of a survival knife is a hollow handle with items in it, large blade with wire cutter (the knotch on the back). What I have is a fighting knife, not a double blade or anything. Attached is a link to the closest thing I can find to my knife.
http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=6698&tabid=548&catid=2661
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 28, 2011, 02:27:15 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on April 28, 2011, 02:25:15 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 28, 2011, 02:21:08 AM
They say one of the greatest barriers to communication is a different understanding of a single term.
Sounds like a quote out of my leadership book.
Oooh, good catch. I know it was something close from the Leadership 2000 and beyond from WIWAC.
Not that it was that long ago for some of us. WIWAC 2003-2008 it was just falling out of favor for the 21st century texts.
Quote from: mclarke on April 28, 2011, 04:35:00 AM
Well first they have to establish what a survival knife is. My understanding of a survival knife is a hollow handle with items in it, large blade with wire cutter (the knotch on the back). What I have is a fighting knife, not a double blade or anything. Attached is a link to the closest thing I can find to my knife.
http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=6698&tabid=548&catid=2661
Hollow Handles. I think I just threw up a littles in my mouth. :P
Hollow handled knives are inherently weak. Even ones from Parrish or Randall are weaker that full tang knives. There is one company that makes a hollow handled knife that is machined from one piece of steel that is very strong but the seeming utility of carrying items in your knife handle is outweighed by the disadvantages.
I prefer a very solid FULL TANG knife for outdoors work.
By "not work" I meant not IAW the task guide.
Quote from: ol'fido on April 28, 2011, 10:49:54 PM
Quote from: mclarke on April 28, 2011, 04:35:00 AM
Well first they have to establish what a survival knife is. My understanding of a survival knife is a hollow handle with items in it, large blade with wire cutter (the knotch on the back). What I have is a fighting knife, not a double blade or anything. Attached is a link to the closest thing I can find to my knife.
http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=6698&tabid=548&catid=2661
Hollow Handles. I think I just threw up a littles in my mouth. :P
Hollow handled knives are inherently weak. Even ones from Parrish or Randall are weaker that full tang knives. There is one company that makes a hollow handled knife that is machined from one piece of steel that is very strong but the seeming utility of carrying items in your knife handle is outweighed by the disadvantages.
I prefer a very solid FULL TANG knife for outdoors work.
You never can tell when you might need that fishing line and hook on a ground team......As a ground team leader, I don't ever having to do any emergency fishing. Plus, don't forget the cool un-readable plastic compass on the butt cap of the K-Mart Rambo blade......My field knife is a Cold Steel Recon Tanto (full tang, naturally) Daily carry knife is a Cold Steel folder.
Major Lord
Normal day to day carry knife is a CRKT folder, field knife is a USAF survival knife with a 5'' blade. There is no need for anything more.
I use a Cold Steel Master Hunter. For a couple of years I have been trying to get a $10 Ontario Knives 7 1/2" butcher knife cut down to a 5" spearpoint off an article I saw in the Backwoodsman Magazine.
A better definition of a survival knife would be a knife designed to do multiple task in an emergency situation. The "hollow handle" is just a design facet that allowed the carry of emergency items in one package. A "Randall Made Knife"
hollow handle knife is a partial tang construction or used to be. Randall has a book that explains all the knife designs, ideas and history. A really good read.
Bo Randall was in Civil Air Patrol during the war.
The Ka-Bar knife is a utility field knife and I wouldn't worry if a cadet had one.
Does the cadet/senior know how use the knife/tool/etool correctly so they don't hurt themselves or others? That is the question we should ask ourselves. I know cadets that are MATURE enough to use the tools they have and not hurt themselves or others. If they don't know how to use the tools they have they should be taught. I carry a couple Leathermans, and USAF Pilot Survival Knife in my pack.
A "Rambo" knife in my opinion would be very large in all aspects and fantasy looking. If someone had a knife like that I would tell them to put it away.
Real Rambo Knives (http://www.cartertown.com/rambo1.htm)
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 28, 2011, 02:05:56 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 28, 2011, 01:59:00 AM
Quote from: BTCS1* on April 28, 2011, 01:44:40 AM
However the Ka-Bar does not work because it may be considered a "survival" knife.
Why would that mean it would not work?
He's saying that it doesn't meet the task guide restrictions for a knife because it could be considered a "'rambo' type survival knife". That said, I don't generally advocate them, my pocket knife does what I need a knife to do without having to carry a huge blade. One of the cadets in my squadron had one in his field gear and we asked him to take it out - he had another knife anyways and it tends to present a bad image (hard-kewl, etc) within CAP.
Quotee. Restrictions on Knives: You may only wear a sheath knife if authorized by your team leader. Sheath
knives cannot have a blade longer than 6" or a total length of greater than 11". The sheath must adequately
secure the knife and protect the wearer from the blade. If authorized, sheath knives will be worn only on the
pistol belt or carried inside the pack. The following knife types are not authorized: boot knives, butterfly
knives, switch blades, double edged knives, "Rambo" style survival knives, or knives with retracting sheaths.
Machetes or hatchets can only be carried by senior members when needed for that specific sortie. No knives
may be visible when the member is performing crash sight surveillance duty.
The restiction on survival knives....is only on "Rambo" style surival knives.....which I take to mean any knife that designed to "Look" bad ass but in fact is next to worthless in the field.
Bottom line....ask your team leader and press on.
I understand that this subject has not been replied in almost a year, I don't know if there is a new thread on it or not, but I know that there was an issue that was brought up but not defined in this thread and it was the fact about the Guide used as a regulatory document outside of ES and the answer is on CAPR 900-3 where states
2. Other Dangerous Weapons. Other than as provided for in paragraph 1 above, members engaged in CAP activities are prohibited from possessing or using weapons as defined by local state statutes as "dangerous."
a 6" blade knife is considered nationwide as dangerous, or even a knife over 3", regardless if it is legal or not the regulation prohibits any item considered as dangerous weapon. Therefore the regs are more rigorous in this matter. I just felt that I didn't see this question answer. Even though this regulation is for assisting Law Enforcement the reg says ANY CAP activity. of course the exception is when another Reg authorizes in an specific situation like ES. I hope I have explained myself correctly and if I am wrong then please feel free to clarify.
Thank you
You're saying my ubercool combat survival knife (S&W SAR) is not allowed? But it's ubercool!
Quote from: coloncapfl on April 05, 2013, 07:22:18 AMa 6" blade knife is considered nationwide as dangerous, or even a knife over 3", regardless if it is legal or not the regulation prohibits any item considered as dangerous weapon.
Where are you getting that?
Eclipse,
The laws of each sate define that.
Usually they agree that any knife with a blade larger than 3 inches is a dangerous weapon.
See http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-dangerous-weapon.htm
And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_weapon
And http://definitions.uslegal.com/d/deadly-weapon
Flyer
Quote from: flyer333555 on April 05, 2013, 04:19:16 PM
Eclipse,
The laws of each sate define that.
Usually they agree that any knife with a blade larger than 3 inches is a dangerous weapon.
See http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-dangerous-weapon.htm
And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_weapon
And http://definitions.uslegal.com/d/deadly-weapon
Flyer
Indiana does not have a length limit at all. They only restrict types of knifes.
Yeah, I get that, but in this context, we'll get wrapped around the axles as to what's dangerous and what's not.
When we start wandering into the "regardless of whether it's legal or not", we're done, because the entirely of the conversation is subjective.
Suffice to say, most members would do well with a Leatherman or your basic flip out, and rarely is a machete or even a KA-Bar ever necessary.
You mean i as a law abiding citizen cant carry my Mini K-Bar, my Gerber Multitool, or my Gerber Flip Blade? What a CROC!!
For my FLWG brethren:
Florida Supreme Court says...
Quote
...folding knives with a blade length of 4" or less are common pocket knives.
Below is what Florida law says about knives in everyday English.
What is Legal to Own
- Balisong knives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_knife) are legal.
- Belt knives, cane knives, and other disguised knives are legal.
- Bowie knives and other large knives are legal.
- Throwing stars and throwing knives are legal.
- Undetectable knives (knives that will not set off metal detectors) are legal.
- Ballistic knives are illegal.
The law does not limit individuals from owning, selling, or buying any knife except for ballistic knives.
Limits on Carry
- You can open carry any knife.
- Box cutters, multi-tools, and other work knives are legal to carry concealed.
- In most cases, conceal carry of a common pocket knife with a blade of less than 4 inches is legal.
- Anything outside of this has not been expressly banned or allowed.
For the most part,
Florida knife laws are easy. You can own any knife as long as it is not a ballistic knife and, if you keep your knives at home, you should be fine. You can also open carry any knife you want. You can conceal carry any box cutter, multi-tool, or 4 inch pocket knife. Conceal carry of any other type of knife can or can not be considered carrying a concealed weapon so watch out.
Eclipse,
Agree with you in this issue.
I have a Gerber.
The United states, for its most part, is not a jungle or heavily forested area in which most members will actually need it. Unless they do a search in The Everglades or parts of Alaska, and some other few areas in the US, most members only need a Gerber or Leatherman... or the ol' Swiss Army tool...
Flyer
One of the problems we are still fighting is the drop knife that was featured on the Ground Team web gear for years on the old Civil Air Patrol Supply Depot web page.
Few cadets allive today would have ever seen those images, but their some commanders still think it's 1972.
Bottom line is.......legal or not........it is the chain of command's job to make the call.
SM X is sporting a 24" machete for his UDF ground team.......in his pack and out of sight.....maybe over kill.
SM Y is sporting a full on K-Bar in plain view on his ground team gear........so long as he is not doing "site security/survailance"....it is okay be regs.
Use your good judgement and press on.
Bottom, bottom line, is use good judgment AND know your state and local laws. Not only that, but what may be legal/legit in Florida may not be when you're at NESA.
WIWAC, if you didn't have the Gerber Mark II, you weren't legit, period >:D
(http://www.moorecutlery.com/shop/images/detailed/1/Gerber22-01874markII.1.jpg)
I want to add that is not whether the knife is legal to carry or not, I have a conceal weapon license in FL and I can carry knife concealed, the term is dangerous weapon what the regulations use. any blade over 3" long can be lethal. Again different states define as legal differently. CAP regulations states that any weapon declared as dangerous are not allowed during CAP activities, exceptions to this are in the ES regulations and manuals. When a regulation mentions a manual or guide for reference then is the regulation that is giving the mention guide the authority. Again the issue with the knifes is not a matter of legality in the regulation but a matter of definition. At least that's the way I see regulation, I could be wrong perhaps.
^ You are working from a flawed premise.
What you mean? Please elaborate?
Quote from: flyer333555 on April 05, 2013, 04:19:16 PM
Eclipse,
The laws of each sate define that.
Usually they agree that any knife with a blade larger than 3 inches is a dangerous weapon.
See http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-dangerous-weapon.htm (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-dangerous-weapon.htm)
And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_weapon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_weapon)
And http://definitions.uslegal.com/d/deadly-weapon (http://definitions.uslegal.com/d/deadly-weapon)
Flyer
Knives, like firearms, are only as dangerous as the person wielding them. Any knife is dangerous in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. Most of the people I have seen carrying completely outrageous knives were more dangerous to themselves than anyone else. What I see far more than somebody showing up with the "survival samurai sword" is cadets and seniors showing up with super cheap pocket and kitchen(yes, I said kitchen) knives that are useless and like I said dangerous to the user. And yes, 99.99% of the time, you will not need anything more than a pocket knife for ground team, but when you need something more, you REALLY need it!
Most serious bushcrafters recommend a knife blade be no longer than the width of your hand at the palm and just below the knuckles or about 3 1/2" to 4". It should have a thickness to allow the back of the blade to be struck without damaging it(batoning), be high carbon steel, and full tang.
http://www.amazon.com/Esee-Knives-Desert-Micarta-Handles/dp/B004DTRERG (http://www.amazon.com/Esee-Knives-Desert-Micarta-Handles/dp/B004DTRERG)
They also make this model with a blaze orange micarta handle.
I would like to clarify. My original post was meant to previous posts that stated or questioned the extend of the Ground Team Task Guide guidelines in regards to knifes beyond ES events. Someone posted last year that the task guide could not be used in non ES activities. I was stating that there is a Reg for that purpose and nobody mentioned it on previous posts. When it comes to ES, I think is a matter of taste and personal safety. In the service I had a Buckmaster 184 (got stolen after I left the service) on top of my bayonet and that knife was a great tool. For CAP that would be out of regs for 2 reasons (Rambo style and over 6" blade) but for me was very handy during bivouac. I understand that for a 24 hr pack that might be overkill but for several days it could come handy. My favorite is the AF survival. I hope that I haven't confused anyone with my post
Quote from: coloncapfl on April 05, 2013, 09:30:59 PM
What you mean? Please elaborate?
Your interpretation that 900-3 automatically applies to knives of a given size based on a subjective definition of "dangerous weapon" is incorrect.
900-3 does not apply to knives. It applies to firearms.
Further, the Ground & Urban Task Guide specifically
authorizes knives with blades up to 6" in length.
It also authorizes machetes and hatchets as needed (Senior members only).
With all due respect the regulation is specific about firearms, the regulation says "Other Dangerous Weapons"
"1. Firearms. Civil Air Patrol members will not carry, wear or use firearms while engaged in Civil Air Patrol activities. For purposes of this regulation a firearm is defined as any device which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, air or any other gas.
a. The carrying of firearms prohibition is subject to the following exceptions:
(1) A member may carry firearms on his/her person when required to do so by law provided he/she has a written statement of proof of such requirement signed by the wing commander.
(2) Firearms may be carried in survival gear in CAP aircraft when required by law. When firearms are so authorized, they will not be removed from the survival gear unless an emergency situation exists.
(3) Firearms may be used under strict supervision as authorized in CAPR 52-16, Cadet Program Management.
b. CAP shall not own, lease, acquire, store or otherwise accept ownership of or title to any firearms.
2. Other Dangerous Weapons. Other than as provided for in paragraph 1 above, members engaged in CAP activities are prohibited from possessing or using weapons as defined by local state statutes as "dangerous.""
I think that the term dangerous weapons does not refer to firearms since it has already stated it above.
I believe that what I am trying to say is what it was said in a previous post
Quote from: N Harmon on January 14, 2011, 02:49:22 PM
Quote from: Ned on January 14, 2011, 01:14:49 AMBut if I am not in the school and not engaged in an AFAM or even a local emergency services mission, why should I reasonably believe that I am bound by a "task guide."?
I thought you were talking about ground ops outside of NESA. If you are talking about non-ES activities, then there is no reason to believe the task guide applies.
When it comes to ES Ground Team Operations I am perfectly clear that the 6" blade / 11" knife applies, but outside of ES I believe that 900-3 applies and that is what I thought was confusing about the comment. and nobody clarified that
I daily carry a four inch blade with a seatbelt cutter/glass breaker. Haven't used it yet outside of opening boxes at work but you never know.
What I am trying to say is that outside of CAP ES related activities, there is no reason to be carrying a knife and I had the impression that the comment was trying to say that you are allowed to carry whatever as long as is legal, and is not. the only time you are allowed to carry a knife is during your duties in ES. That is how I see it. Again either I could be wrong or I might had explained myself wrong.
My blade is with me in uniform. It is not a weapon, it is a tool. Just like fire, clubs, bows, etc were when they were new tech.
I understand, and I am not trying to make an argument about your personal choice. I was trying to make a point about the regulation and what is referring to. In the CAP Knowledgebase they refer to this Regulation when the same question was brought up.
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/680/~/policy-on-knives-at-cap-meetings-and-during-cap-emergency-services-missions (http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/680/~/policy-on-knives-at-cap-meetings-and-during-cap-emergency-services-missions)
I am not neither in favor nor against, I was just making an observation for purpose of clarification. Is not my intention to judge individual choices.
Quote from: coloncapfl on April 05, 2013, 10:37:57 PM
What I am trying to say is that outside of CAP ES related activities, there is no reason to be carrying a knife and I had the impression that the comment was trying to say that you are allowed to carry whatever as long as is legal, and is not. the only time you are allowed to carry a knife is during your duties in ES. That is how I see it. Again either I could be wrong or I might had explained myself wrong.
That is NOT how I see it. If your state or city prohibits the carrying of knives of a certain length, it doesn't matter whether you are in uniform or not or performing ES duties or not. Illegal is illegal. But that is only if they are prohibited for everyone. Fortunately for most of us, our local and state governments have not lost their friggin' minds(Since I live in the People's Republic of Illinois that may come back to bite me. >:D). I carry one about everywhere, in uniform and out, and doing ES or not.
That article references 900-3, but 900-3 has no comment in regards to knives. It is a regulation about "firearms".
Further to this, the references flyer posted earlier, primarily discuss firearms, though "Kung Fu Stars" and blades are mentioned.
So, CAP specifically authorizes up to 6" knives for all members, and machetes for seniors, with the only restriction being
that if your state bans their carry, they are prohibited for CAP use within that state.
Anyone know of a state where a 6" knife is expressly prohibited?
My state, for example, does not prohibit the carry or use, but they do, however, consider you armed with a
"dangerous weapon" if you are carrying a variety of implements, as well as firearms.
There's an important difference between that something being banned.
I have carried one of these for about 35 years, and carry it everywhere with me except where specifically prohibited, like the court house, or airports.
(http://s7d3.scene7.com/is/image/BuckKnives/pwProduct?$pwSharp$&$product=is%7BBuckKnives/0501RWS-B_1?scl=1%7D)
Buck Prince
Blade Length: 2 1/2"(6.4 cm)
Length Closed: 3 3/8" (8.5 cm)
I wonder what is the purpose to carry a knife to a weekly meeting. If in fact CAP would say that carrying a knife outside of ESduties then why should we ignore a reg just bcause is legal in the law. Why not just keep it in your car. I see sometimes people ignores regs just because they think is not correct or proper. Regs are to be followed not just when is convenient. Again knowledgebase references the 900-3 when asked about knifes. Its up to the units if they would apply it or not. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. This is mine.
Quote from: coloncapfl on April 06, 2013, 11:21:16 AM
I wonder what is the purpose to carry a knife to a weekly meeting. If in fact CAP would say that carrying a knife outside of ESduties then why should we ignore a reg just bcause is legal in the law. Why not just keep it in your car. I see sometimes people ignores regs just because they think is not correct or proper. Regs are to be followed not just when is convenient. Again knowledgebase references the 900-3 when asked about knifes. Its up to the units if they would apply it or not. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. This is mine.
Quite simply, a good knife is a frigging useful thing to have on you. I can't count the number of times I've had to use my Gerber pocket knife while in uniform.
Quote from: davidsinn on April 06, 2013, 12:24:02 PM
Quote from: coloncapfl on April 06, 2013, 11:21:16 AM
I wonder what is the purpose to carry a knife to a weekly meeting. If in fact CAP would say that carrying a knife outside of ESduties then why should we ignore a reg just bcause is legal in the law. Why not just keep it in your car. I see sometimes people ignores regs just because they think is not correct or proper. Regs are to be followed not just when is convenient. Again knowledgebase references the 900-3 when asked about knifes. Its up to the units if they would apply it or not. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. This is mine.
Quite simply, a good knife is a frigging useful thing to have on you. I can't count the number of times I've had to use my Gerber pocket knife while in uniform.
I Always follow rule 9. Always carry a Knife.
I thought that was rule #2...
#1. Never bring a knife to a gun fight.
#2. Always carry a knife.
Google "Gibb's Rules". Or go to www.gibbsrules.com (http://www.gibbsrules.com). Rule #3.
According to Gibbs rules, Number 9 is always carry a Knife. :)
I can see that some people can't be taken serious. This is my last comment on this subject. I guess you can't ask a serious question without somebody making a mockery out of it like adolescents. Thanks for the lack of help of some, and the mature comment from others. Just remember that cadets read this comments too. What an example.
You took your OPINION on the definition of one regulation and proceeded to tell us that was how it should be in CAP. You were disagreed with and explained to why your OPINION differed from most everybody else's opinion. You then accused several of us of failure to follow regulations and now of providing a bad example. The job of a commander is often to "interpret" regulations that are vague or that do not exactly fit the situation at hand. As 60-3 states, these situations should be handled with common sense, prudence, and mindfulness of the safety of our people. In this instance, you have taken your opinion of a regulation and filtered our actions through your opinion and found us wanting. Again, however, this is YOUR OPINION.
After a while of going "round the rose bush" trying to convey this sentiment to you, some members of the forum tried to lighten the mood and pass along a little of that "common sense" via some humor. That's what happens on a forum like this. It's happened to everybody on here. Welcome to the club.
Quote from: coloncapfl on April 05, 2013, 10:37:57 PM
What I am trying to say is that outside of CAP ES related activities, there is no reason to be carrying a knife...
The regulation you quoted only prohibits "dangerous weapons" under state statute or local ordinance. This definition does not include all knives. In Tennessee, for instance, as long as the knife has a blade less than or equal to 4" and is not a switchblade or inertia (butterfly-style among others) it is not considered a "dangerous weapon." Now, different laws may or may not apply if a CAP event is held at a school as there may be more strict definitions of prohibited items in the vicinity of the school.
Whether or not there is a "...reason to be carrying a knife..." I think it would be difficult to determine a nation-wide standard of what is reasonable. In NYC, perhaps there is never a need for a good, strong pocketknife, but on a farm in NW Georgia that same knife is invaluable.
In the hands of the right person, a knitting needle is a deadly weapon. In the hands of the wrong person, a pair of nail clippers is dangerous (at least to the person holding them).
YMMV.
Disclaimer: I am still not a lawyer and you rely on my legal analysis at your own peril.
6"? You call that a knife? Now this is a knife...
(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9176/spoons.jpg)
The Mark 1 High Capacity Combat Assault Spoon! I had one of those in my kit for this weekend's event, it was my most useful piece of gear. 8)
It's either a Firearm, a knife (even then Michigan Law doesn't care about hunting knives) or an "Other Dangerous Weapon".
Check your states laws as they usually specify what is considered an "Other Dangerous Weapon" (in Michigan it's: blackjack, billy, metallic knuckles, sand club, sand bag or bludgeon).
Also, check the KB. Clarification on the subject does say there is typically no reason for cadets to be carrying knives to every meeting BUT it does not expressly prohibit it and it further goes to state some of the reasons TO carry knives to regular CAP meetings (IE: Aerospace Projects).
IMHO the intent of the regulation is to keep members from wandering the woods with Billy Clubs and Brass Knuckles during a search. "If' I cant carry a gun I'm carrying my OTHER boomstick!"
It's still left open ended and forces you to check your local laws for "updates" in case someone comes out with a new instrument of death that can neither be defined as a firearm or a bladed instrument of some sort.
I'm not a lawyer but I DID get arrested for carrying a butterfly knife (read: Messing around with it in my front yard) when I was 12. Great gift, DAD!
Thank goodness the local police didn't live by todays zero tolerance laws. They took my knife and sent me home.
Since then I've been pretty careful and regularly read up to see if there is anything else I can't play with in my front yard.
I mean KNIVES, you sickos. KNIVES.
After sitting back and enjoy reading through this little discussion, I found my deer knife meets regs. So it looks like I have a new SAR knife.
I have found that 99% of my cutting needs in the field have been handled either by my Swiss Army Knife (Tinkerer model) or my Gerber Multitool.
Quote from: ol'fido on April 05, 2013, 09:35:44 PM
Quote from: flyer333555 on April 05, 2013, 04:19:16 PM
Eclipse,
The laws of each sate define that.
Usually they agree that any knife with a blade larger than 3 inches is a dangerous weapon.
See http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-dangerous-weapon.htm (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-dangerous-weapon.htm)
And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_weapon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_weapon)
And http://definitions.uslegal.com/d/deadly-weapon (http://definitions.uslegal.com/d/deadly-weapon)
Flyer
Knives, like firearms, are only as dangerous as the person wielding them. Any knife is dangerous in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. Most of the people I have seen carrying completely outrageous knives were more dangerous to themselves than anyone else. What I see far more than somebody showing up with the "survival samurai sword" is cadets and seniors showing up with super cheap pocket and kitchen(yes, I said kitchen) knives that are useless and like I said dangerous to the user. And yes, 99.99% of the time, you will not need anything more than a pocket knife for ground team, but when you need something more, you REALLY need it!
Most serious bushcrafters recommend a knife blade be no longer than the width of your hand at the palm and just below the knuckles or about 3 1/2" to 4". It should have a thickness to allow the back of the blade to be struck without damaging it(batoning), be high carbon steel, and full tang.
http://www.amazon.com/Esee-Knives-Desert-Micarta-Handles/dp/B004DTRERG (http://www.amazon.com/Esee-Knives-Desert-Micarta-Handles/dp/B004DTRERG)
They also make this model with a blaze orange micarta handle.
Esee also makes the blade in blaze orange (IIRC; I know they do for the Izula), so you can accessorize it with the blaze micarta handles. However, I prefer (and really really want) and Esee 5. It was designed with the USAF in mind and is meant to be a knife used to survive. I really want a Junglas too, but that may or may not be a part of my gear.
Quote from: PHall on April 15, 2013, 11:15:55 PM
I have found that 99% of my cutting needs in the field have been handled either by my Swiss Army Knife (Tinkerer model) or my Gerber Multitool.
+1 In my Aircrew Surivival Kit....I carry an USAF surival knife.....and a pocket knife....but for GT and everyday use....i just use my Benchmade 3" folding knife and a Leatherman Multi-tool.
Like I said before......Ask your chain of command/GTL/GBD if in doubt if your knife is legal. If you absolutely have to go into the feild with a pig sticker......put it in your pack, out of sight, out of mind. ;)