saluting

[Tubacap]

Okay, I'm usually pretty good at this, but here is a question.  I am entering a Coast Guard facility, and all of the gate entry personnel salute individually while I am in the car as a passenger.  What should I do?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Return the salute.

[Tubacap]

Thanks.  That's what I did, it was weird to salute sitting down in a car though.

[Capt Rivera]

I agree. The only time I would recommend not saluting is if your the driver and the vehicle is in motion. That is a safety issues and they understand that. If your a passenger in any seat, feel free to return the salute.

Good question by the way.

[Gunner C]

I agree. The only time I would recommend not saluting is if your the driver and the vehicle is in motion. That is a safety issues and they understand that. If your a passenger in any seat, feel free to return the salute.

Good question by the way.

As a military officer, now retired, I've been saluted for years while driving a car through a military installation gate.  My father received the same courtesy.  My thinking is that it would just be rude to not return a salute, even if you're driving - In my 50 years around the military, I've never heard of anyone getting into a mishap while saluting.  If that's a concern, try walking and chewing gum simultaneously - get some practice. 

GC

[CadetProgramGuy]

IF you feel it may be a safety concern, you are allowed to acknowledge the salute by 'nodding' a return.

[MIKE]

IF you feel it may be a safety concern, you are allowed to acknowledge the salute by 'nodding' a return.

Just greet the guard with an appropriate verbal greeting when the car pulls up, then you are covered either way.

[JoeTomasone]

And keep in mind that military personnel are not required to salute CAP members, but can if they choose to.   

[hatentx]

so what if you are a SM  with no rank?  Are cadets suppose to salute you then?  What about a SM who shows up in there RM uniform on there way to change what would be correct for cadets in this manner.  I tell them not to salute me but mostly because it feels wierd as can be

[brasda91]

so what if you are a SM  with no rank?  Are cadets suppose to salute you then?  What about a SM who shows up in there RM uniform on there way to change what would be correct for cadets in this manner.  I tell them not to salute me but mostly because it feels wierd as can be

It depends.  For SMWOG I would not expect a salute, but rather a greeting.  Remember, you are saluting the grade, not the person.

For the SM in his/her RM uniform, if the cadets recognize you as a CAP officer (2d Lt & higher), they are expected to salute you.  You are not required to return the salute.

[JoeTomasone]

CAPP 151 (http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503084356.pdf) says:

b. Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a greeting and a symbol of mutual respect. As such, it is never inappropriate to salute another individual. The basic rules regarding saluting for CAP members are:

(1) You salute when in military-style uniform.

(2) You salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to you.

(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you.

(4) You salute when outdoors unless:

(a) You are carrying articles (or a heavy object) in both hands, which cannot be transferred to the left hand, or another legitimate reason such as injury, and so forth. In this
case, an oral greeting should be exchanged, such as "Good Morning, Sir or Ma'am." If you are the lower ranking individual and the one you are approaching is higher in rank but whose arms are incapacitated, you will still salute.

(b) You are in a designated "covered" or "no salute" area, (aircraft marshalling areas and flightlines are "no salute" areas).

(c) You are a member of a military formation or a work detail (only the senior member of the formation or detail salutes).

(d) You are attending a public gathering such as a sports event.

(5) When on a military installation, you salute officers in government cars if the car has a flag or metal standard that identifies the rank of the occupant (usually general officers and military wing or base commanders).

(6) Military personnel are not required to render a salute to CAP personnel, but they are not restricted from doing so if they desire.

To answer your question, a Senior Member (without grade) is not considered an officer and thus is not required to be saluted by Cadets - the same as those Senior Members who hold NCO grade such as Staff Sergeant.  

If a Senior Member (without grade) also happens to be an officer in the military, than the salute would be based on the uniform being worn - as he would be perceived to either be or not be an officer.  

[hatentx]

thanks I was looking for that and couldnt find it.  Had a cadet challenge me on it.  Saying that "the regulations says" not able to quote it and I am still new trying to have an idea of what is were.  Thanks

[DNall]

For the SM in his/her RM uniform, if the cadets recognize you as a CAP officer (2d Lt & higher), they are expected to salute you.  You are not required to return the salute.

I was in my (then) enlisted Army uniform one day at encampment. Everyone saluted me still, and I returned with a verbal greeting. I didn't like the idea of returning salutes in a uniform that didn't rate it. That's one of those gray areas, and I did what I thought was right.

You do need to get used to the idea though, cause they'll make you an LT here in a few more months & it will be required.

[hatentx]

haha thats when you just wear the polo.  Yeah i know I will need to get use to it, it will just take some time.

[JoeTomasone]

thanks I was looking for that and couldnt find it.  Had a cadet challenge me on it.  Saying that "the regulations says" not able to quote it and I am still new trying to have an idea of what is were.  Thanks

You'll find that the vast majority of CAP members know very little about the contents of CAPP 151.  At least, that's been my experience.

[hatentx]

looks like I have a new one I must read then

[CadetProgramGuy]

There is that old saying,

when in doubt........

[Capt Rivera]

I agree. The only time I would recommend not saluting is if your the driver and the vehicle is in motion. That is a safety issues and they understand that. If your a passenger in any seat, feel free to return the salute.

Good question by the way.

As a military officer, now retired, I've been saluted for years while driving a car through a military installation gate.  My father received the same courtesy.  My thinking is that it would just be rude to not return a salute, even if you're driving - In my 50 years around the military, I've never heard of anyone getting into a mishap while saluting.  If that's a concern, try walking and chewing gum simultaneously - get some practice. 

GC

A nod or wave is appropriate. Just because you have not heard of a mishap does not mean one has not occurred or that one wont. Maybe your actually driving slow enough that the probability is low, but most don't.... 

I assume anyone saluting while driving is giving as correct a salute as possible, which increases the risk over someone who is just waving or nodding... Most of our officers have issues saluting properly (hand placement) while standing still, I can't possibly make a blanket statement saying that saluting while driving is safe.

To the CAP officers who might be driving on a military installation, please don't take the risk, it is NOT worth it. For those who want to debate this, I refer you back to your ORM training.

[JoeTomasone]

And incidentally, for those of you near military installations...

When I typically go on the local base, it's to go to the Military Clothing store, and I am in civilian attire.  I therefore do not salute officers (as they would look at you all funny since you're not in uniform) and obviously am not saluted by anyone.   All good.

The problem comes when I am on base and IN uniform for some CAP function...  I get saluted and sometimes go into vapor-lock since I am not accustomed to it...  Fortunately I usually recover quickly.

The BAD part is that I will forget that I am in uniform and FAIL to salute senior officers..   While I sometimes recover and will turn around, say, "Sorry, sir/ma'am" and whip out a salute, I have occasionally just completely dropped the ball until it was too late to recover (the officer is completely out of the vicinity).   This really bugs me for the obvious reasons.   

Consequently, I find myself on base, in uniform, repeating to myself, "You are in uniform...  You are in uniform..."   

Don't be as scatterbrained as I have been. 

[lordmonar]

I agree. The only time I would recommend not saluting is if your the driver and the vehicle is in motion. That is a safety issues and they understand that. If your a passenger in any seat, feel free to return the salute.

Good question by the way.

As a military officer, now retired, I've been saluted for years while driving a car through a military installation gate.  My father received the same courtesy.  My thinking is that it would just be rude to not return a salute, even if you're driving - In my 50 years around the military, I've never heard of anyone getting into a mishap while saluting.  If that's a concern, try walking and chewing gum simultaneously - get some practice. 

GC

A nod or wave is appropriate. Just because you have not heard of a mishap does not mean one has not occurred or that one wont. Maybe your actually driving slow enough that the probability is low, but most don't.... 

I assume anyone saluting while driving is giving as correct a salute as possible, which increases the risk over someone who is just waving or nodding... Most of our officers have issues saluting properly (hand placement) while standing still, I can't possibly make a blanket statement saying that saluting while driving is safe.

To the CAP officers who might be driving on a military installation, please don't take the risk, it is NOT worth it. For those who want to debate this, I refer you back to your ORM training.

Well if you are going to go to ORM training......each individual will make their own call based on the situation encountered.

RiverJ.....let's get real....we are talking about taking your right hand and touching your right eyebrow for less then 1 second......it takes longer then that to turn on your radio.

If you are that coordination impared....maybe you should not be driving a car at all.

[Capt Rivera]

Well if you are going to go to ORM training......each individual will make their own call based on the situation encountered.

RiverJ.....let's get real....we are talking about taking your right hand and touching your right eyebrow for less then 1 second......it takes longer then that to turn on your radio.

If you are that coordination impared....maybe you should not be driving a car at all.

Very mature Captain Harris ... Lets try to stay on topic

Some CAP members should not be driving cars let alone CAP vans. I really don't want those individuals to think they HAVE to or SHOULD salute while driving. They DON'T! Why anyone would this this, I don't know. Please find me a military regulation, guide etc (From any branch) that says it is appropriate for an officer while driving to return a solute.

Unless your driving a flagged or other wise easily identifiable vehicle, indicating that you are an officer, pedestrians are not required to salute you anyway. There is no rule that says they need to try to peer into every vehicle to try to see who is driving it. If they salute you, it is because THEY WANT TO. They don't have any fear of getting in trouble for not doing it. They wont find it disrespectful if you don't return the salute. a nod or wave is adequate...

[stratoflyer]

I think the key here is respect. When I was a cadet officer, I would get saluted by AD NCO's and one time, I was sitting down having lunch and this huge guy came to my table and said, "Hello, Sir, May I sit with you?". I said go on ahead. This guy was talking to me as if I were some super high-ranking officer. He was in civi's by the way. He explained he was a Sgt. in the Army, and I explained I was a CAP cadet. Still, the guy did not drop the "Sir". He was showing me respect, and I returned it likewise by being polite and courteous. No salute here, just words!

The salute is a sign of respect, just as much as calling someone sir. If unpractical to return a salute, there are many other ways to return a show of respect that the saluting person will understand. The name of the game is respect. Whatever you do, never just ignore a salute and/or greeting!!!

[JoeTomasone]

I explained I was a CAP cadet. Still, the guy did not drop the "Sir". He was showing me respect, and I returned it likewise by being polite and courteous. No salute here, just words!

The salute is a sign of respect, just as much as calling someone sir. If unpractical to return a salute, there are many other ways to return a show of respect that the saluting person will understand. The name of the game is respect.

BTW, as a former cadet, my personal policy is to salute C/Col's.    They've earned it in my book.

[MIKE]

BTW, as a former cadet, my personal policy is to salute C/Col's.    They've earned it in my book.

Let's not confuse the issue any further.

[lordmonar]

RiverJ....

the issue here is if someone renders you a salute....you return it if possible.

Normaly, when you are driving, that will only happen in one of two situations...your car is flagged....or when you are going through the gate and the guard salutes you.

In either case you should return the salute if you can.  If you really can't then you shouldn't.....but we should not be saying...."never salute while driving" because that goes against the traditions of the USAF.

90% of our saluting rules stem from custom not regulation.

And once again....if you feels someone should not be driving a CAP vehicle....take away their license.

[davedove]

Normaly, when you are driving, that will only happen in one of two situations...your car is flagged....or when you are going through the gate and the guard salutes you.

Those are the only two situations I can think of right off hand.

Most of us aren't going to be in a flagged vehicle very often, and if we are it's because we're riding with someone with a lot more brass on their shoulder.  The guard is saluting them, not you.

In the other case, your car is going to be stopped anyway, so go ahead and salute.  Since 9-11, I haven't received a "wave through" on any military post, so your vehicle won't be moving through the gate without stopping.  Salute when you're stopped.

[Capt Rivera]

being stopped at the gate is different from being the driver of a MOVING vehicle....

Ill give up on this part of the conversation, people are debating without knowing what they are debating about. I'm glad you guys are passionate, but you should really read carefully so that your positions make sense.  Re read the posts, I never said you should not salute gate guards.

[lordmonar]

I for one am completely confidant that most drivers, at on base driving speeds, can safely return a while still safely operating the vehicle.

[hatentx]

Who salutes a moving car other than one that is flagged?

If your at the Gate and you are saluted your are stopped so no safety issue there.

Helicopter Pilots return the Salute as they are taxing away I would think that worly bird would be alot more dangerous than a car driving at 25 mph and driving with one hand for 3 seconds.  How many people really drive 10 and 2 all of the time to begin with. 

[A.Member]

Well if you are going to go to ORM training......each individual will make their own call based on the situation encountered.

RiverJ.....let's get real....we are talking about taking your right hand and touching your right eyebrow for less then 1 second......it takes longer then that to turn on your radio.

If you are that coordination impared....maybe you should not be driving a car at all.

Very mature Captain Harris ... Lets try to stay on topic

Some CAP members should not be driving cars let alone CAP vans. I really don't want those individuals to think they HAVE to or SHOULD salute while driving. They DON'T! Why anyone would this this, I don't know. Please find me a military regulation, guide etc (From any branch) that says it is appropriate for an officer while driving to return a solute.

Unless your driving a flagged or other wise easily identifiable vehicle, indicating that you are an officer, pedestrians are not required to salute you anyway. There is no rule that says they need to try to peer into every vehicle to try to see who is driving it. If they salute you, it is because THEY WANT TO. They don't have any fear of getting in trouble for not doing it. They wont find it disrespectful if you don't return the salute. a nod or wave is adequate...

You've got to be kidding.  If you really believe this then whenever you drive a vehicle, I expect that both hands will remain on the wheel at all times - no exceptions - ever!

That is just silly. 

Lordmonar is right, just return to the salute.

[A.Member]

I explained I was a CAP cadet. Still, the guy did not drop the "Sir". He was showing me respect, and I returned it likewise by being polite and courteous. No salute here, just words!

The salute is a sign of respect, just as much as calling someone sir. If unpractical to return a salute, there are many other ways to return a show of respect that the saluting person will understand. The name of the game is respect.

BTW, as a former cadet, my personal policy is to salute C/Col's.    They've earned it in my book.

They've earned they rank and should be proud of it but they don't get a salute.

[jb512]

Well if you are going to go to ORM training......each individual will make their own call based on the situation encountered.

RiverJ.....let's get real....we are talking about taking your right hand and touching your right eyebrow for less then 1 second......it takes longer then that to turn on your radio.

If you are that coordination impared....maybe you should not be driving a car at all.

Very mature Captain Harris ... Lets try to stay on topic

Some CAP members should not be driving cars let alone CAP vans. I really don't want those individuals to think they HAVE to or SHOULD salute while driving. They DON'T! Why anyone would this this, I don't know. Please find me a military regulation, guide etc (From any branch) that says it is appropriate for an officer while driving to return a solute.

Unless your driving a flagged or other wise easily identifiable vehicle, indicating that you are an officer, pedestrians are not required to salute you anyway. There is no rule that says they need to try to peer into every vehicle to try to see who is driving it. If they salute you, it is because THEY WANT TO. They don't have any fear of getting in trouble for not doing it. They wont find it disrespectful if you don't return the salute. a nod or wave is adequate...

Yet another reason why we should remove RM officer rank from CAP.

If you are saluted, return the salute.  If you are not prepared to do that, then I would suggest wearing a polo with slacks.

[Capt Rivera]

Yet another reason why we should remove RM officer rank from CAP.

If you are saluted, return the salute.  If you are not prepared to do that, then I would suggest wearing a polo with slacks.

I've been in the RM long enough to know that not every officer will return a salute while driving...  There is no requirement for them to do so nor will they ever be one. In this case they normally nod or wave. (If they see you) As I said, please find a requirement from any branch of the RM and I'll admit defeat on this point.

My only issue is that neither Capt Harris or anyone else should create a requirement for CAP members that does not even exist for RM members.

If a CAP member feels comfortable and won't have an accident, I'm sure they will do what they want. (Since there is no guidance)

Capt Harris should not be saying that CAP members SHOULD or NEED to salute or that it is DISRESPECTFUL for them not to salute while driving. Those are inaccurate statements despite what his feelings are. Although I commend him on his strong since of honor, we need to remember that there are inexperienced members including cadets reading and we should not give them the pressure of a requirement that does not exist. (Don't forget cadets can both drive their POV and CAP vehicles on base.) And yes, cadets do sometimes get saluted by RM.

I could care less what any one individual does, provided they don't end up doing anything that reflects poorly on CAP. I never said I wouldn't return a salute. I said the only time someone is justified in not doing so is while driving a currently moving vehicle and that it would be understood as a safety precaution rather then disrespect.  After Capt Harris and others began to use words such as "should", "need" and "disrespect", I made my argument stronger to show that their implied requirement does not exist.

SUMMARY: There is NO "saluting while driving requirement" of any kind in CAP or the RM.  If someone feels safe to do so, I neither can or should be the stopping force. If CAPNHQ believes there NEEDS to be a restriction, they will implement one in writing. If there is a RM restriction on it, (and there might be) I welcome anyone else to find it. [I'll be honest, I don't have the time or desire to look for it at this time.]

Capt Harris and others..... Do what you feel correct in doing, just don't tell everyone who reads this that they HAVE to, NEED to etc... Maybe they CAN, but they don't HAVE to and should not feel that they HAVE to. Letting them know that they CAN and reminding them that there are not many that share the privilege should be enough. No need to create your own regulation....

[lordmonar]

8.1.1.1. When the salute is rendered to another person, the junior member initiates the salute accompanied with an appropriate verbal greeting, e.g., Good Morning, Sir/Ma'am." Salute and extend the verbal greeting at a distance at which recognition is easy and audible. Offer your salute early enough to allow the senior time to return it and extend a verbal greeting before you pass. All salutes received when in uniform shall be returned; at other times, salutes received shall be appropriately acknowledged.

Emphasis mine.

[ColonelJack]

(shaking head slowly)

The things we find to argue about ...

Carry on.

Jack

[lordmonar]

(shaking head slowly)

The things we find to argue about ...

Carry on.

Jack

Well....it is either this...or we go back to debating boonie hats and berets 

[hatentx]

Who salutes a moving car???  I think if we could answer this question we would find the argument a mute one at that.  Flagged vehicle are the only reason I could see.

[ColonelJack]

Well....it is either this...or we go back to debating boonie hats and berets 

Oh, heck, that's an easy one.  Now, repeat after me ...

"Boonie hats are cool ... berets suck."

There.  Problem solved.



Jack

[jb512]

8.1.1.1. When the salute is rendered to another person, the junior member initiates the salute accompanied with an appropriate verbal greeting, e.g., Good Morning, Sir/Ma'am." Salute and extend the verbal greeting at a distance at which recognition is easy and audible. Offer your salute early enough to allow the senior time to return it and extend a verbal greeting before you pass. All salutes received when in uniform shall be returned; at other times, salutes received shall be appropriately acknowledged.

Emphasis mine.

Emphasis his.  And I'm glad he did the research because I was going to be too lazy to look it up...

[stratoflyer]

Are we clear? Issue settled?


Anything else to argue about...WMIRS anyone?

[JoeTomasone]

Are we clear? Issue settled?


Anything else to argue about...WMIRS anyone?

I wanted to argue with A.Member about saluting C/Col's but Big Mike shut me down.  

[MIKE]

I wanted to argue with A.Member about saluting C/Col's but Big Mike shut me down.  

Big Mike?  Well within height and weight standards.

[ColonelJack]

I'm guessing he meant "Big Mike" in terms of the absolute power wielded by your most moderating self.

...I'm just sayin'...

Jack

[CadetProgramGuy]

Walk softly and carry a big locking stick......

[JoeTomasone]

I'm guessing he meant "Big Mike" in terms of the absolute power wielded by your most moderating self.

...I'm just sayin'...

And sayin' correctly...   Abandon all hope, all ye who cross Big (but apparently within standards) Mike!

[lordmonar]

I get an image of Mike as a sort of royalty.....'We are not amused.......lock".

[Capt Rivera]

8.1.1.1. When the salute is rendered to another person, the junior member initiates the salute accompanied with an appropriate verbal greeting, e.g., Good Morning, Sir/Ma'am." Salute and extend the verbal greeting at a distance at which recognition is easy and audible. Offer your salute early enough to allow the senior time to return it and extend a verbal greeting before you pass. All salutes received when in uniform shall be returned; at other times, salutes received shall be appropriately acknowledged.

Emphasis mine.

I'll look into this tomorrow... but I doubt the context is correct...  Still ome fight in me yet

[aveighter]

By the rude bridge that
  arched the flood,
Their flag to Aprils
  breeze unfurled,
Here once the embattled
  farmers stood,
And fired the shot heard
  round the world.

Don't you love poetry? 

I bet the guy that wrote that never engaged in some pansy argument about saluting whilst dropping a hand from the reins for a second or two.  He was probably spending his limited time in somewhat more pressing tasks.

By the way, I was at Columbus AFB last weekend.  With the base speed limit (like most bases) ranging from 15 - 25 mph in most areas I was able to salute with both hands and shake a leg at the same time while maintaining complete control of my vehicle.  I practised with a regimen of walking and gum chewing for two weeks prior.  Highly recommend it.

[Capt Rivera]

8.1.1.1. When the salute is rendered to another person, the junior member initiates the salute accompanied with an appropriate verbal greeting, e.g., Good Morning, Sir/Ma'am." Salute and extend the verbal greeting at a distance at which recognition is easy and audible. Offer your salute early enough to allow the senior time to return it and extend a verbal greeting before you pass. All salutes received when in uniform shall be returned; at other times, salutes received shall be appropriately acknowledged.

Emphasis mine.

110 AFPAM36-2241V1 1 JULY 2005
7.6. Saluting.
The salute is a courteous exchange of greetings, with the junior member always saluting the senior member first. A
salute is also rendered to the flag as a sign of respect. Any Airman, noncommissioned officer (NCO), or officer
recognizing a need to salute or a need to return one may do so anywhere at any time. When returning or rendering an individual salute, the head and eyes are turned toward the flag or person saluted. When in ranks, the position of
attention is maintained unless otherwise directed. Guidance when exchanging salutes includes:
7.6.1. Outdoors.
Salutes are exchanged upon recognition between officers or warrant officers and enlisted members of the
Armed Forces when they are in uniform. Saluting outdoors means salutes are exchanged when the persons
involved are outside of a building. For example, if a person is on a porch, a covered sidewalk, a bus stop, a
covered or open entryway, or a reviewing stand, the salute will be exchanged with a person on the sidewalk
outside of the structure or with a person approaching or in the same structure. This applies both on and off
military installations. The junior member should initiate the salute in time to allow the senior officer to return
it. To prescribe an exact distance for all circumstances is not practical; however, good judgment should
dictate when salutes are exchanged. A superior carrying articles in both hands need not return the salute, but
he or she should nod in return or verbally acknowledge the salute. If the junior member is carrying articles in
both hands, verbal greetings should be exchanged. Also, use the same procedures when greeting an officer of
a foreign nation. Use these procedures in:
7.6.1.1. Formation. Members do not salute or return a salute unless given the command to do so. Normally
the person in charge salutes and acknowledges salutes for the whole formation.
7.6.1.2. Groups, But Not in Formation. When a senior officer approaches, the first individual noticing the
officer calls the group to attention. All members face the officer and salute. If the officer addresses an
individual or the group, all remain at attention (unless otherwise ordered) until the end of the conversation, at
which time they salute the officer.
7.6.1.3. Public Gatherings. Salutes between individuals are not required in public gatherings, such as
sporting events or meetings, or when a salute would be inappropriate or impractical.
7.6.1.4. Moving Military Vehicles. Exchange of salutes between military pedestrians (including gate
sentries) and officers in moving military vehicles is not mandatory. However, when officer passengers are
readily identifiable (for example, officers in appropriately marked vehicles), the salute must be rendered.
7.6.1.5. The Presence of Civilians. Persons in uniform may salute civilians. The President of the United
States, as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, is always accorded the honor of a salute. In addition, if
the exchange of salutes is otherwise appropriate, it is customary for military members in civilian clothes to
exchange salutes upon recognition.
7.6.1.6. A Work Detail. In a work detail, individual workers do not salute. The person in charge salutes for
the entire detail.
7.6.2. Indoors.
Except for formal reporting, salutes are not rendered.

Emphasis mine.

I looked but could not find AFI 24-1201 online. Got a link? I googled and used http://www.e-publishing.af.mil

[lordmonar]

Oops....my bad....that should be 34-1201.

[lordmonar]

Also your reference is out of date...the new one is dated 2007.

Here is the quote.

8.6.1.4. Moving Military Vehicles. Exchange of salutes between military pedestrians (including gate sentries) and officers in moving military vehicles is not mandatory. However, when officer passengers are readily identifiable (for example, officers in appropriately marked vehicles); the salute must be rendered.

So we got conflicting regulations....we got a pamphlet that say we don't have to salute....unless the passanger is readily identifiable.....and we got an AFI that says you must return any salute rendered.

Ergo.....if someone salutes you....even if he does not have to....you got to return it.

I can anticipate your next argument..."the AFPAM says passangers".....well all I can say is that the next time an Airman forgets to salute the General's car because the general was the "driver"......that argument will not work very well.  And yes there are generals and colonels out there who DO troll around base "testing" their airman's situational awareness.

[RiverAux]

This seems to be a regulation applying more to the officer in the car than the pedestrian.  To me it says an officer driving a car is not required to return a salute from a pedestrian while an officer that is a passenger in the car is required to do so.  It does contradict the officer's responsibilities under the other regulation that is cited, but to me this particular clause is much more specific than the generic requirement so it holds just a little more weight.   

[Capt Rivera]

This seems to be a regulation applying more to the officer in the car than the pedestrian.  To me it says an officer driving a car is not required to return a salute from a pedestrian while an officer that is a passenger in the car is required to do so.  It does contradict the officer's responsibilities under the other regulation that is cited, but to me this particular clause is much more specific than the generic requirement so it holds just a little more weight.   

That is exactly how I see it.

[lordmonar]

Also to throw into the mix....pamphlets are not regulatory.

[Capt Rivera]

Also to throw into the mix....pamphlets are not regulatory.

Correct. They are advisory in nature.

They are used to explain, clarify and expand on things.  Yes, I know theres an official definition of a pamphlet, but I wont look it up...]

We all know a good regulation will never cover every situation. If it did cover everything it would be to long. If it covered everything without being long, it would either be to light or to restricting.

[jb512]

So what's the verdict?  Are you going to have total and complete disregard for the safety of thousands on the roadway, create havoc and chaos, and bring the world to an end by taking your right hand off the steering wheel to complete the reckless and dangerous act of returning a salute, or just nod?

[Grumpy]

Ye Gad, what ever happened to common sense?

[jb512]

Ye Gad, what ever happened to common sense?

It no longer exists.

[jimmydeanno]

Everyone demands that everything is put into a regulation...

[MIKE]

Everyone demands that everything is put into a regulation...

Training

STANDARDS, CUSTOMS AND COURTESIES

i. "Pamphlets" are nondirective, informative, "how-to" type publications that may include suggested methods and techniques for implementing CAP policies.

l. "Regulations" announce policies, direct actions and prescribe standards.

[stratoflyer]

We still on this?

So what's the verdict?  Are you going to have total and complete disregard for the safety of thousands on the roadway, create havoc and chaos, and bring the world to an end by taking your right hand off the steering wheel to complete the reckless and dangerous act of returning a salute, or just nod?

Well, you know how some people get sometimes about the small things...

[Grumpy]

 Grrrrr   

[Eclipse]

Somehow I managed to get on base today, (on my motorcycle yet!) which has a sticker that identifies me as an "officer".

Coming through the gate I was a afforded a very smart salute from both guards, which I returned as smartly as possible considering I was in civilian dress and wearing  a flip-shield helmet in the "up" position.

Thankfully, despite earlier warnings, no one was seriously injured in the resulting melee.

As I was leaving this afternoon, someone was walking out of a training center, noticed the bike, glanced to the sticker, and waved his hand (he was also in civilian dress).  I looked him in the eye and nodded sharply, and we both moved on with our lives, thankful, I'm sure, that no one was hurt.

Since this base has a lot of recruits, it is very common to come across large divisions moving between buildings, and the RDC's make a point to salute passing vehicles (as appropriate).  I have never had an issue taking the 1 second to return a salute from the vehicle.

It should also be noted that most bases I have been on have a 15 Mph speed limit.

Further, the vast majority of people I know drive automobiles with one hand most of the time, and thousands of CAP members, police, fire, EMS, HLS, Coast Guard, CERT, etc., find it possible to operate one-handed while talking on a radio with the other, at considerably higher speeds than 15Mph.

Saluting from a vehicle is the same as saluting while walking, do it politely, with respect, the best you can, and as safely as possible, then move on to something important.

[stratoflyer]

Thankfully, despite earlier warnings, no one was seriously injured in the resulting melee.

Oscar Mike Golf!!

Was your bike moving while you saluted??

[Eclipse]

Thankfully, despite earlier warnings, no one was seriously injured in the resulting melee.

Oscar Mike Golf!!

Was your bike moving while you saluted??

Rolling slightly forward as the gate has a bit of a downslope - since the throttle is on my right hand, you can't go too fast while saluting (from a stop).

With the cruise control on I could be doing highway speeds and salute, though they would likely have an issue with that if I came through the gate at 65 w/o stopping.   

[stratoflyer]

Lima Oscar Lima!

[Capt Rivera]

you guys miss my point. It is not required and there are reasons why they don't require it in that instance... Those talking about saluting the gate guards are missing the meat of the conversation as that was never the issue.

All I wanted was for certain individuals to stop saying it was required. They can say highly recommended or whatever else. Just NOT required. There is a difference. We should strive to be accurate with what we say and how we say it....

But you guys obviously can't see past your own experiences and opinion. I never said I don't salute in the case or that others should not. Only that we should not be saying that it is a requirement that they do, because it is not! The reason it is not is because the military sees it as a potential risk with no potential reward.

If you got into a accident because of it and it was required, you could have an argument saying that you would have not gotten into said accident if not for the regulation that made the "unsafe condition". Without regulation, if you get into an accident while doing that, your on your own.

[Students of law (Civil & military) please resist the urge to flex your knowledge.....]
Arguing and winning are two different things and is not pertinent....

[lordmonar]

It is required.

all salutes received in uniform shall be returned.

That is from the AFI....which is reglatory.

[CadetProgramGuy]

It is required.

all salutes received in uniform shall be returned.

That is from the AFI....which is reglatory.

I understand regulatory issues.

I also understand safety issues too.

On a motorcycle, if you salute me, you be gettin a nod back.....

[stratoflyer]

WARNING: No implied comment is made by posting this picture. It is merely an observation.

[CadetProgramGuy]

ummmmm......Mr President......Put the dog down........Then salute.......

Dog Down, then Salute......

No, no no, not at once!!

[jb512]

And we are saying that whether it is required or not, we will initiate it or return it.  It is a simple gesture of respect.

[lordmonar]

It is required.

all salutes received in uniform shall be returned.

That is from the AFI....which is reglatory.

I understand regulatory issues.

I also understand safety issues too.

On a motorcycle, if you salute me, you be gettin a nod back.....

Which I said way back when.....absolutely safey and common sense take precident.....but.....RiveraJ.....asked for and was provided the reference that said a return salute was required.

He was suggesting it was wrong for us to tell CAP officers that you should return the salutes while driving a car....because of the danger involved...and that we were wrong to say that a return salute was required.

[aveighter]

Here are 4 pages that exemplify why this organization has problems being taken seriously in places where that really matters.

[lordmonar]

Here are 4 pages that exemplify why this organization has problems being taken seriously in places where that really matters.

Go look at military.com......if our conduct on a forum has anything to do with the professionalism of the organisation....all four branches of the military are worse than we are.

[Eclipse]

Here are 4 pages that exemplify why this organization has problems being taken seriously in places where that really matters.

"I'll buy that for a dollar!"

We get so wrapped up in unimportant minutia we miss the big picture. 

I guess I can thank good mentors and leaders in my parts.

Level I, and my unit CC at the time, provided me the same "non-information" that other members get, but I had excellent examples in both the CAP and compensated services.  I was wrapped up in it for two beats, corrected, and I moved on.

Now I try and pass that on to others I see getting similarly wrapped up.

Another easy fix  for this, if its a cold-sweat-inducing issue, is just wear corporates and civvies, you won't need to worry about returning any salutes.

[heliodoc]

You know this has really gotten silly about saluting ......driving and all


I remember a 6 paces rule and if one is really concerned I am sure there numerous military websites on the Internet to get this info

Hey CAP, when in doubt, whip it out (that would be salute to u folks)

That's what I learned... are you worried about getting stopped and getting reminded about it??

[PHall]

You know this has really gotten silly about saluting ......driving and all


I remember a 6 paces rule and if one is really concerned I am sure there numerous military websites on the Internet to get this info

Hey CAP, when in doubt, whip it out (that would be salute to u folks)

That's what I learned... are you worried about getting stopped and getting reminded about it??

You do know that the 6 paces thing is just a custom, right? It's not written in any regulation, manual or instruction.

[heliodoc]

^

OK I stand corrected, sir

But my original still stands.... This organization worries about the most trivial things

Especially uniform wear and customs and courtesies

I do understand the need for heraldry, mcustoms and courtesies and all.....

So with all the former RM types, you'd think CAP had this covered already...I was sadly mistaken

[CadetProgramGuy]

US Army Standards - AR 600-25

1-5

d. The practice of saluting officers in official vehicles (recognized individually by rank or identifying vehicle plates and/or flags) is considered an appropriate courtesy and will be observed. Salutes are not required to be rendered by or
to personnel who are driving or riding in privately owned vehicles, except by gate guards who will render salutes to recognized officers in all vehicles unless duties are of such a nature as to make the salute impractical. When military
personnel are acting as drivers of a moving vehicle, they should not initiate a salute.

[jimmydeanno]

Hate to bring this topic back up.  Just reading "A New Officer's Guide to Etiquette and Decorum, (or how to avoid embarrassing yourself in public!)" that is given to AFROTC Cadets.

When Not to Salute

In a few situations, the salute is NOT appropriate.  The occassions when you do not salute are:

...

- When you are the drive of a moving vehicle.  However, when practical, you should return the salutes to others.  Thus you will often see other officers return the salute of the security forces member while drive through the gate of an installation."

- When the senior officer in a vehicle salutes and you are junior.