USAF PME Ribbon

[GroundHawg]

Please forgive me if this has been covered before and I missed it. The USAF NCO PME Graduate Ribbon has been awarded for the NCO Preparatory Course, Airman Leadership School, NCO Leadership School, NCO Academy, and SNCO Academy for distance learning for around 10 years now (before it had to be in-residence).

Do CAP NCO's that take these courses qualify? If so, how are they awarded? Memo? or just course completion cert?

[Shuman 14]

USAF NCO Graduate Ribbon

ADDITIONAL ELIGIBILITY CLARIFICATION

The NCOPME Graduate Ribbon was established and awarded to in-residence graduates of a certified NCO PME school. Prior to July 31, 2014, only in-residence PME completion qualified for award of the NCOPMER, however after that date, "in-residence" and "distance learning" courses qualify for award of the ribbon.

No mention of CAP NCOs, or Sister Service NCOs, that complete the training being awarded the Ribbon... but it doesn't say they don't either.

[Stonewall]

Example scenario: if a Marine attends Airman Leadership School, they earn the Air Force PME ribbon. I say that with experience because I worked with a Marine at the Pentagon who did exactly that.

How did that Marine get the ribbon in his file to wear? He provided his graduation documents and showed the AFI that authorized the ribbon and I'll assume they added it to his PIF.

For CAP, how does that happen since we don't have a mechanism to enter such an award? I'd say wear it and show the AFI that states the ribbon is awarded for graduating PME and your certificate, and boom, you're good. Not like you have to carry it around with you since eServices shows military equivalency (right?).

As a sitting CAP wing commander and active CMSgt, I wouldn't have an issue with this from either side. But there are people who lose sleep over things like this. I am not one of those people.

[Eclipse]

If you earn it as a servicemember, you can wear it.

If you took the course as a CAP member and do not get credit for it as a servicemember you don't get it.

[Stonewall]

If you earn it as a servicemember, you can wear it.

If you took the course as a CAP member and do not get credit for it as a servicemember you don't get it.

Then I guess CAP members shouldn't wear the Air and Space Organizational Excellence Award (ASOEA)?

[Shuman 14]

If you earn it as a servicemember, you can wear it.

If you took the course as a CAP member and do not get credit for it as a servicemember you don't get it.

Please cite the USAF or CAP Instruction and/or Regulation that states that. 

[arajca]

If you earn it as a servicemember, you can wear it.

If you took the course as a CAP member and do not get credit for it as a servicemember you don't get it.

Then I guess CAP members shouldn't wear the Air and Space Organizational Excellence Award (ASOEA)?

That one has a special authorization in the awarding documents. However, not all CAP members who served during that time frame can wear it.

[FlyingPig]

If you earn it as a servicemember, you can wear it.

If you took the course as a CAP member and do not get credit for it as a servicemember you don't get it.

Please cite the USAF or CAP Instruction and/or Regulation that states that. 

You're looking for a cite that specifically says you can't wear the NCO PME medal?  I think you'd be looking for a cite that says CAP members can. With military decorations you'd be looking for a reg that specifically says you can wear it as a CAP member who didn't attend while in the military.  I get Stonewall doesn't have an issue with it.  I've done AF ALS and NCOA, plus USMC NCO School and PLDC in the Army and I don't think Id have any heartache over it either, but I don't think the lack of a cite preventing it implies you can. 

[FlyingPig]

If you earn it as a servicemember, you can wear it.

If you took the course as a CAP member and do not get credit for it as a servicemember you don't get it.

Then I guess CAP members shouldn't wear the Air and Space Organizational Excellence Award (ASOEA)?

But wasnt there an order specifically allowing it? With the PME ribbon, theres nothing that allows a CAP member to wear it.   I wouldnt have an issue with it for someone who completed them.  Just curious.

[HandsomeWalt_USMC]

It's a PME ribbon, not a valor award. Is it really worth getting worked up in internet argument over?

I associate myself with Stonewall. You rate it per the AFI, so wear it. Or don't. I'm not going to stress about something this small.

[FlyingPig]

Was there someone stressing and arguing about it?  Its a discussion forum.  Thats what we do, discuss.  If someone got out of line over it, thats a different discussion. 

That being said, Im not concerned about it.  I think its one of those things where it really does just say you rate it if you completed the courses.   If a CAP member is wearing it and someone asked, I think you'd be hard pressed to tell them to take it off.  Frankly, a CAP member doing it takes more time and effort than when I did it.  I was being paid when I did all 4 of my NCO courses vs someone taking their own time to do them. 
 

[Stonewall]

This is such low hanging fruit it would likely never reach my radar, and if it did, I'd genuinely be appreciative of a volunteer member taking the time to accomplish the distance learning PME course. There are paid airmen in the Air National  Guard who we can't get to take the course.

For some CAP NCOs, they wouldn't be authorized to wear the ribbon on their corporate uniform anyway. For others who do, will it impact anyone or anything? It wouldn't even indicate that they're wearing something they hadn't earned, like a Stolen Valor situation.

Today, as of this very moment, I'd rather we put the energy into getting members to put nametapes and rank on their sage green fleece jackets thousands of CAP members are wearing today for Wreaths Across America.

[SierraOneThree]

There is currently a debate as to whether the distance PME format qualifies for even certain service members to wear it. The 2806 specifically lists Distance Learning options as the exception to being awarded the PME ribbon, but then immediately lists an exception to the exception in the same paragraph. The 2670 does not specify a difference between distance learning and by correspondence, but this is likely because the awards reg predates the current force development reg.

I have a support ticket in with myFSS right now asking for clarification for a Guardsman who has been told by his FSS that he is not eligible to wear the ribbon because he completed ALS through the ASU portal, but I firmly disagree with that read of the regulation. I'll find out in a month or so.

That said, no, I wouldn't wear it without CAP-USAF specifically clarifying. It's a weird ribbon since you can technically only get it if you were previously/are currently enlisted, but...might be worth sending the question up your chain formally.

[SierraOneThree]

lol update, apparently service members do get the ribbon if they do it through the ASU portal. That's from a SNCO at the NGB level.

Still probably need clarification from CAP-USAF for folks who do it through CAP. Like I said, it's a weird one.

[FlyingPig]

They do.  Thats how I got my AF PME ribbon and cluster.  All through distance within the last 3 years.  My USMC and Army were all in residence. 

In the end like Stonewall said, wear it if youre a CAP NCO who took the time to take the course.  I did mine all online, so Im not about to tell any "well, when I went through....." shaming stories

[PHall]

Prior to 31 July 2014 only PME you did in residence counted for the ribbon.
After 1 Aug 2014 both in residence and correspondence courses count.
Per the AFPC link in the second post of this thread.

[SierraOneThree]

Prior to 31 July 2014 only PME you did in residence counted for the ribbon.
After 1 Aug 2014 both in residence and correspondence courses count.
Per the AFPC link in the second post of this thread.

Yes, this was my position. There are apparently personnelists in the Guard who adamantly believe otherwise, hence why I asked upwards for clarification from someone with actual weight. Their argument was that the force development structure changed recently, and that "correspondence courses" and "distance learning" were two separate things and only one counted, but the one that counted was no longer in use.

It was a silly argument, but an argument nonetheless.

[Shuman 14]

You're looking for a cite that specifically says you can't wear the NCO PME medal?  I think you'd be looking for a cite that says CAP members can. With military decorations you'd be looking for a reg that specifically says you can wear it as a CAP member who didn't attend while in the military.  I get Stonewall doesn't have an issue with it.  I've done AF ALS and NCOA, plus USMC NCO School and PLDC in the Army and I don't think Id have any heartache over it either, but I don't think the lack of a cite preventing it implies you can.

There's an old Military adage, "It's easier to ask forgiveness than ask permission." 

That being said, nearly every training course I have ever completed, be it in residence, via correspondence course, or some electronic distance learning format, provided me a certificate, either hard copy or electronic, that had my name on it and the majority also had my title on it.

So, if Staff Sergeant Snuffy Jones, be that Staff Sergeant of the USAF/USSF, US Army, USMC or CAP, has a certificate of graduation for ALS with their name, Rank and possibly an identification number (i.e. DODID, CAPID, etc.) on it... they have ALL the documentation they need to wear the award in my mind, until someone shows me the documentation that states otherwise.

I'd go so far to say, if one of my soldiers came in with such documentation I'd instruct my S-1 NCO to have the Certificated uploaded into i-PERMS and entered into IPPS-A and on their ERB. Earned is earned.

[SARDOC]

I think there is discussion to be had here.   The regulations specifically state for Badges, that the badges mus tbe for "service performed in any branch of the armed forces of the United States or its allies."  The PME ribbon however isn't a badge, it's an award.

11.2.2. US Awards. Federal awards awarded by the competent authority may be worn on USAF style uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in AFI 36-2903. National Guard awards will not be worn. 

There doesn't appear to have the "service performed in any branch of the armed forces of the United States or its allies" Condition. 

Is this an omission or was this intentional?

So, if as a member of the Coast Guard Auxiliary, a member earns a Coast Guard Achievement Medal (it does happen)  This would meet the letter of the regulation in that it was awarded by a competent authority and is eligible to be worn per the AFI. 

Not sure if that's the spirit of the regulation, but is consistent with the letter.

[Stonewall]

There were days, as late as the mid-90s) when CAP members, including cadets (specifically, cadets) would qualify on the M16 and/or M9 with Air Force CATM instructors and be presented the Air Fire Small Arms Marksmanship Ribbon. In fact, I know a sitting wing commander who still wears his.

As an aside, the Air National Guard wing that is supported by out CAP Wing's chaplain plans to present an Air Force Achievment (or Commendation) Medal to him for his several years of service.

There is no mechanism in myDecs to accomplish this, but when the ANG Wing Commander presents him with a certificate and pins the Air Force medal on his uniform, what do we do? Tell him to remove it? Allow him to wear it?  Both are good questions.

As his CAP Wing Commander, I won't hesitate to let him wear it.