Brooklyn Tech Cadet/ Composite Squadron History

Started by BTCS1*, December 27, 2009, 05:00:16 AM

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Smithsonia

#20
I had a friend who worked on the 10th Mountain Division Project. Lineage between WW2 and reactivated 1984-85 Light Infantry Brigades was in name only. They were in different places and constituted - reconstituted in different times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_Mountain_Division_%28United_States%29

That said, he invited as many 10th Mountain members as he could find, worked hard to reclaim their glory, not only for this new unit's sense of pride and heritage but for the posterity of the original members service. I helped a bit on this project. I don't think there were any specific rules that I can recall. We actually did this through standard PA practices and may be we built the book on the subject. I don't actually know. If this is the case then I was/am unaware of the specific Army rules on this matter. It is loose for good reasons. Rules limit and exclude. Rules are actually intellectually dishonest - as they can't account for every possible event. I found out a violation of a rule today for instance - at the moment of the big bang things likely traveled faster than the speed of light (5 times the speed of light) I always thought that the speed of light was a Rule of nature. It seems facts break rules all the time.

Anyway, rules of intellectual appropriateness and attention to detail are far different than what you propose. At it's worst Brooklyn Tech will find new things about themselves and the original Brooklyn Cadet Squadron. I doubt they will lie. If they are good, they will exceed your limitations and my expectations by some bit. It won't make them wrong. It will make them historians.

Once they publish their finding then it is time to pick at the conclusions, not before.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

RiverAux

The Army follows incredibly strict rules for such things and I'm fairly confident that when the current unit was reactivated that the honors and lineage of some unit fo the 10th from WWII were conferred on to them.  Perfectly kosher and happens all the time.  But that isn't the situation we're talking about here. 

QuoteOnce they publish their finding then it is time to pick at the conclusions, not before.
I'm not picking at them, but at the implications in your posts that they do not have to prove a conclusive link between their current unit and previous units that existed in the same area in order to claim them as part of the history of THEIR unit. 

Smithsonia

#22
RiverAux;
Please reread my post. I quite explicitly stated that they should be transparent in their research - who begat whom - when etc. Let us take your idea versus mine.
If they have a break in commissioning/decommsioning dates then they go no further, say 20 years back. Done, finished, complete... but is it?

With my premise you work it from both ends. In this way the research is like a science experiment. Each experiment begins with a premise. Experimentation (research) follows. Research proves or disproves the premise. The premise is not defended. The conclusion from the facts revealed in the experiment are. The Scientific Principle and History Research are completely aligned. In your example there must be proof of the premise before the experiment begins. Premises are best guesses and a way to design the experiment (research) only.

1) Experimental facts have many routes to truth. BUT, all routes must leave tracks. Proof comes from reading the tracks.

Stephen Hawking "A Brief History of Time"

This is how I resolved the issue in regards John Curry and the founding of My Squadron. This is from the Curry Thread under this topic heading:
John Curry was a sponsor of the Black Sheep CO-162... but in a rather roundabout way.

In either 1964 or '68 the old Denver Senior wanted to get onto Lowry AFB in east Denver. They needed a sponsor. The sponsorship papers were signed by John F Curry. According to sources, John Curry called the base commander and Denver Seniors were treated ever-so-well by the Air Force. John Curry was never a squadron member but is the man that gave it, its first vital breath.

About 1986 The Black Sheep Squadron split from the Denver Senior Squadron. The Old Denver Senior Squadron folded in 1999. The only remaining vestige of the Denver Senior Sq. is The Black Sheep at Centennial Airport. As such JF Curry is the Daddy we never knew. JF Curry is an important figure in my squadron, which I dearly love and enjoy. Without the then retired, yet still prestigous and honored, Air Force leader, my squadron might never have been.

The debt we all owe Jack Curry has been the focus of this thread. I'd now like to add my personal thank you to this man. Every meeting I attend, every mission I mount, every time I put on the uniform, every time I sit among the honorable men and women of my squadron, I thank Jack Curry. I wish I'd known him. According to his daughter we would have made friends. So for all Captalkers this is a dad I never knew, the friend I never made, but the man to whom we all remain deeply in debt.

With regards;
ED OBRIEN

alamrcn

Units sometimes adopt the names of local aerospace or military legends - even founding CAP members. Using people's names, as for example the "Charles K Hamilton Composite Squadron" or the "Captain Jay Weinsoff Cadet Squadron 3" isn't that uncommon and widely accepted.

Don't you think a unit could also honor the history of a prior unit of the same geographic location?

Of course I don't think a unit should assume and then continue the liniage of an earlier unit, simply based on a the relationship of a geographical location. But encorporating the history and traditions - the "spirit" of the previous unit - if only by name, should be Ok I think.



Ace Browning, Maj, CAP
History Hoarder
71st Wing, Minnesota

Cecil DP

The military continues the lineage of a unit to keep that unit's history alive and to provide a link back to the hero's of yesterday. There are some units which can trace their history back to the Reveloution and beyond.
Michael P. McEleney
LtCol CAP
MSG  USA Retired
GRW#436 Feb 85

RiverAux

Quote from: alamrcn on December 30, 2009, 06:08:48 PM
Don't you think a unit could also honor the history of a prior unit of the same geographic location?

Of course I don't think a unit should assume and then continue the liniage of an earlier unit, simply based on a the relationship of a geographical location. But encorporating the history and traditions - the "spirit" of the previous unit - if only by name, should be Ok I think.
Well, CAP has no official way to confer lineage of past units on new ones with the possible exception of giving the new unit the charter number of the old one.  That is the nearest thing we have to the way the military handles unit history. 

However, lets say that you're writing the history of your squadron which is only ten years old and want to include historical facts about previous squadrons in your town.  I see nothing wrong with including a section specifically dedicated to what is known of the history of those past units ("Previous Squadrons in Smithville" or something like that) so that the history of CAP in your town is recorded in some fashion which would address this concern. 

Until we have some sort of regulation covering this issue, I don't know of any other honest way to approach it. 

Smithsonia

RiverAux;
In Regards your post above. We are now likely in agreement, or close enough to call our discussion as satisfactorily closed. Remain the curmudgeon please. It draws out the subject so that every one gets a good look at the finer details. Writing history ain't for sissies. It is as fierce an intellectual battle as there is. Good luck and happy new year to all.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

AlphaSigOU

Back in my days WIWAC I learned very little about my cadet squadron's heritage. It was not until I attended a reunion of Florida Wing cadet alumni in 2008 that I ran into a few former members of my squadron back when they were known as the Miami All-Girls Squadron. (For BillB: Kay Cunningham and Carolyn Cunningham Fresneda.) Back in the day females wore a distinctively different uniform than that of males, and it was not unusual for squadrons to be segregated by sex, especially when forming competitive drill teams, something that is unheard of now. North Miami Cadet Squadron is no longer active.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

alamrcn

Quote from: RiverAuxCAP has no official way to confer lineage of past units on new ones with the possible exception of giving the new unit the charter number of the old one.
and

Quote from: RiverAuxI see nothing wrong with including a section specifically dedicated to what is known of the history of those past units ("Previous Squadrons in Smithville" or something like that) so that the history of CAP in your town is recorded in some fashion which would address this concern.

Agreed and agreed.

Thanks for all the input, and I hope the OP is inspired to find, learn and document the history of Civil Air Patrol involvement in his squadron's neck of the woods. Perhaps that assumed history will inspire and motivate the latest squadron well on into the future.

What was the line- "Writing history ain't for sissies." I think I'll put that on a t-shirt  ;)



Ace Browning, Maj, CAP
History Hoarder
71st Wing, Minnesota

BTCS1*

So I recently found out some rough dates from the head of my schools ham radio club (W2CXN for you hams) who was a teacher at Bklyn Tech from the late 70's to the 90's (his call is N2RQ, for you hams from NY who may know him) that he remembers there was CAP at tech from at least '79, maybe earlier. In the coming weeks I plan on goin to the alumni office of my school and asking if they have yearbooks from that year and around then. If they have club in the yearbook, this should give me dates, and photos. I will keep you posted.
C/2d Lt. B. Garelick, CAP