Scaling down the required gear list?

[kjmillig]

I was reading through the 24 hour pack requied gear list and was thinking that some items seem unnessesary.
What would you eliminate or why would you keep it the same?

[lordmonar]

Not much I would eliminate....I would add space blanket, pocket CPR mask.

[Eclipse]

Not much I would eliminate....I would add space blanket, pocket CPR mask.

+1 - Having been on most types of CAP missions from UDF to overnight SAR in a disaster area,
I was relatively impressed at how well-scaled the equipment list is.

Many missions you won't open the pockets, but I've been on a few where I was digging deep.

[Panzerbjorn]

Yeah, there's not much I would eliminate either.  But there's plenty I would add.  On my personal kit in addition to what's on the packing list, I carry multiple carabiners, a shemagh (please let's not turn this into a shemagh discussion.  I carry one, get over it), Garmin GPSMAP 62stc, map case, and a backpacking pump water filter. Ground Team Leader items.  Anything else would be mission/terrain/situation specific.

[NC Hokie]

There isn't anything that I'd eliminate outright, but I would eliminate the requirement to have separate shelter material IF you're carrying a military poncho.  There ARE some changes that I'd like to see though:

- Split the equipment into two lists; the (T) items would be required to complete the Familiarization and Preparatory Training section of the SQTR, with the remainder of the equipment required to complete the Advanced Training part of the SQTR.  It makes no sense to designate some equipment as (T) when the SQTR currently requires ALL of it before the trainee can go into the field.

- Update the CAP identification list (CAPID, 101 card, CAPF 16x series forms).

- Make the vest match the requirements specified in CAPR 62-1.

- Change the rubber gloves in the FAK to latex or (preferably) nitrile.

- Require that one of the two flashlights be on your person instead of allowing both to be packed away.

- Specify toilet tissue instead of tissue paper.

- Specify which interviewing forms are to be used, and make a mock interview using that form part of the SQTR.  Also, require that they be carried on your person along with the notepad and pencil.

- Eliminate the compass pouch.  It doesn't matter WHERE your compass is as long as you have one and know how to use it.

[NC Hokie]

I was reading through the 24 hour pack requied gear list and was thinking that some items seem unnessesary.
What would you eliminate or why would you keep it the same?

I gave my answer.  What would you change?

[lordmonar]

There isn't anything that I'd eliminate outright, but I would eliminate the requirement to have separate shelter material IF you're carrying a military poncho.  There ARE some changes that I'd like to see though:

No....rain gear and shelter material....two distinct items.    You can't build a shelter in the rain if you shelter and your rain gear are one and the same.

- Split the equipment into two lists; the (T) items would be required to complete the Familiarization and Preparatory Training section of the SQTR, with the remainder of the equipment required to complete the Advanced Training part of the SQTR.  It makes no sense to designate some equipment as (T) when the SQTR currently requires ALL of it before the trainee can go into the field.

No.  There is THE list.....and that is it.  No short list just to get started.

- Make the vest match the requirements specified in CAPR 62-1.

I would go one better.  Identify one make and model, get vanguard to slap CAP on the front and back and make that THE VEST.

- Change the rubber gloves in the FAK to latex or (preferably) nitrile.

Latex is rubber.   And nitrile is acceptable even if it is not on the task guide.

- Require that one of the two flashlights be on your person instead of allowing both to be packed away.

Why require that you carry one?  It is in my pack and I can find it in the dark.  I don't need to carry another thing in my pocket that I won't need.

- Specify which interviewing forms are to be used, and make a mock interview using that form part of the SQTR.  Also, require that they be carried on your person along with the notepad and pencil.

yes...because I may need to conduct and on the spot interview walking in the woods and will not have the time to open my pack.

- Eliminate the compass pouch.  It doesn't matter WHERE your compass is as long as you have one and know how to use it.

That I would agree with.  Also we can use a little common sense here......the compass is the important part of that line item...not the pouch. 

[Luis R. Ramos]

- Change the rubber gloves in the FAK to latex or (preferably) nitrile.

Some people develop allergy to Latex as they use it. And we may have to help someone who is allergic to Latex. Use Nitrile instead!

- Specify toilet tissue instead of tissue paper.

Agree - there are 7 or 8 different types of tissue paper. One is Kraft Tissue paper for hobbies!

Others are for facial use. If it is for your... erm, behind, should state so. Initially I thought it was facial tissue paper, not the other kind, so I carried toilet paper and facial tissue paper thinking that the list was missing toilet paper. Later I re-thought that and took out the facial paper...

[NC Hokie]

There isn't anything that I'd eliminate outright, but I would eliminate the requirement to have separate shelter material IF you're carrying a military poncho.  There ARE some changes that I'd like to see though:

No....rain gear and shelter material....two distinct items.    You can't build a shelter in the rain if you shelter and your rain gear are one and the same.

Fair enough.  I'll keep my dollar store poncho as the backup and only put it on when building a shelter.

- Split the equipment into two lists; the (T) items would be required to complete the Familiarization and Preparatory Training section of the SQTR, with the remainder of the equipment required to complete the Advanced Training part of the SQTR.  It makes no sense to designate some equipment as (T) when the SQTR currently requires ALL of it before the trainee can go into the field.

No.  There is THE list.....and that is it.  No short list just to get started.

I can live with this too, as long as they completely eliminate the (T) from the gear list.

- Make the vest match the requirements specified in CAPR 62-1.

I would go one better.  Identify one make and model, get vanguard to slap CAP on the front and back and make that THE VEST.

No thanks, they already have some and they're the usual Vanguard combination of ugly and overpriced for what you get.

- Change the rubber gloves in the FAK to latex or (preferably) nitrile.

Latex is rubber.   And nitrile is acceptable even if it is not on the task guide.

Fair enough.

- Require that one of the two flashlights be on your person instead of allowing both to be packed away.

Why require that you carry one?  It is in my pack and I can find it in the dark.  I don't need to carry another thing in my pocket that I won't need.

Why do they make you carry TWO?  I know, redundancy...

- Specify which interviewing forms are to be used, and make a mock interview using that form part of the SQTR.  Also, require that they be carried on your person along with the notepad and pencil.

yes...because I may need to conduct and on the spot interview walking in the woods and will not have the time to open my pack.

How about keeping all similar items together so you don't HAVE to open a pack to get a piece of paper when you're already required to keep other pieces of paper and a pencil in one of your pockets?

- Eliminate the compass pouch.  It doesn't matter WHERE your compass is as long as you have one and know how to use it.

That I would agree with.  Also we can use a little common sense here......the compass is the important part of that line item...not the pouch. 

I have two responses to that...

1) Reg lawyers.
2) You know good and well that common sense and CAP often fail to intersect!   

[coudano]

I could buy off on reducing the required list, necessary for qualification,
moving several items to a recommended list.

there are several items that I have never used,
and I think I can make a reasonable case that I almost never would, even in an outdoor survival situation...

which a cap gt should *never* find itself in, unless multiple people have utterly failed at employment of ORM.

[kjmillig]

I've discovered that what I was looking at the other day was not the official packing list, but a squadron's packing list. I've since looked at the real one.
Most of the gear is fairly reasonable, although my field shoe shine kit consists of a small rag, my personal hygiene gear lacks a wash cloth and I shave with soap in the field if I'm ever out that long (never have been), my compass lacks a pouch because I carry it in a pouch made onto my gear or in my pocket, and I carry mechanics gloves instead of leather because leather is very cold and soggy when wet.
I've also looked at several squadron lists that specify GI issue ponchos (I carry lightweight rain gear and a lightweight 10x10 tarp), one that required a small seamstress style measuring tape, one that required a protractor and separate ruler. That's just some of what I read.

[BFreemanMA]

I haven't been on an actual mission yet, but I found that nearly all the items required in the gear list were useful/good to have around during a SAREX/FTX. The requirement for a ruler AND a protractor is a minor redundancy as most protractors I've seen have a ruler "built in" to it, although having a ruler does make triangulation lines easier. I've even found the e-tool to be useful when constructing a shelter or when using *cough* Gaia's latrine *cough*.

[Dracosbane]

I could buy off on reducing the required list, necessary for qualification,
moving several items to a recommended list.

there are several items that I have never used,
and I think I can make a reasonable case that I almost never would, even in an outdoor survival situation...

which a cap gt should *never* find itself in, unless multiple people have utterly failed at employment of ORM.

^This.

Having been on actual missions (including actual finds in the woods) and FTXs, I used my gear more on the FTXs than on the missions as a "prove you have it/can use it."

Can someone provide me an example of an actual necessity or actual incident where a team was humping gear in the woods for four days?  I'm not talking about extended missions (Katrina, Bob Fossett, Evansville, IN flooding DR mission), I'm talking getting out of a vehicle and leaving it behind for four days to search.

Back in the day before 24/72 hr gear lists were specifically implemented, we used the gear list from SARCOMP (which is where I believe the 24/72 list evolved from).  Even then, a lot of that gear wasn't used except in extreme circumstances, which again was probably due to a lack of following ORM (which wasn't ORM at the time either).  We still had one of the (if not THE) most active GTs in the state.

It never hurts to re-evaluate the mission, the gear required to function, and the gear for extremis on a regular basis.  Even if it may not change much or often.  It could be that the only thing that changes is how/where things are carried.

[Spaceman3750]

You can't go without support for 72 hours even with 72 hour gear, because nobody caries 3 days worth of water. We carry, at most, 3L, which is good for about 4 hours of hot weather.

There are a few items I don't carry. I don't carry a tarp in my 24, for example (no room). Nobody really asks to go through my gear, and I don't really ask to go through theirs. As long as you can do your job safely, I don't particularly care what you're carrying (unless you show up with a Rambo knife mounted upside down to your harness. Then you're leaving that behind.)

[Eclipse]

The 72 is replenishment for the base you're staying at.  There is no requirement it be carry-able into the field,
and anyone asserting that is just being silly, at least in a CAP context.

In the real CAP, 24 hour "gear" is how long it takes to get into it when someone asks for our help,
and 72 hours is how long it takes before most of the wing even reads the email requests for personnel.

A water bottle, cell phone, and a credit card are really the only thing "required" to participate in CAP GT ops these days.

Anything else is affectation or wishful thinking.

My kids have done way more roughing it in Boy Scouts then I have in 15 years in CAP, including several real-world, long duration
deployments.

Don't get me wrong, I think fieldcraft is an important skill for anyone, if for no other reason then it gives you some
confidence and self-reliance in an emergency, but the current gear list doesn't match CAPs reality nor the rest of the ES world's reality.

I mean for goodness sake, it still contains change for phone calls and a comb.

Then there's this little gem:

NOTE: ALL REQUIRED ITEMS MUST BE PRESENT IN ORDER FOR THE STUDENT TO PASS THIS
TASK AT THE LEVEL THEY ARE TESTING FOR. ALL ITEMS MUST MATCH THE DESCRIPTIONS
LISTED ABOVE. NO EXCEPTIONS OR SUBSTITUTIONS. TRAINEES ONLY HAVE TO HAVE THE
ITEMS MARKED WITH A "T". TEAM LEADERS MUST HAVE ALL LEADER'S EQUIPMENT AS
WELL IN ORDER TO PASS.

Which pretty much negates the plate carriers and other tactikewl nonsense, yet there you are.
Another requirement treated as a suggestion.

[sardak]

Here's the new, revised as of June 2014, NASAR "24 hr" pack list, which, among other changes, deleted the quarters for a phone call. NASAR also now lists a smaller, lighter, "urban SAR" pack.

http://www.nasar.org/files/NASAR_SARTECH_II_EQUIPMENT_LIST_June_2014.pdf

Mike

[Eclipse]

Here's the new, revised as of June 2014, NASAR "24 hr" pack list, which, among other changes, deleted the quarters for a phone call.

Now requires "$10 in bills and change."  where the heck is the average CAP member supposed to come up with $10.

A new "wealth club"!

[LSThiker]

You can't go without support for 72 hours even with 72 hour gear, because nobody caries 3 days worth of water. We carry, at most, 3L, which is good for about 4 hours of hot weather.

Sawyer mini:  it weighs about 3oz and does not require freezing in between uses.  Love it when I go backpacking.

[SARDOC]

Since you guys are talking about the Required gear list.  Where the new uniform regulation specifies acceptable colors for "BackPacks", does this apply to packs that are being used for GSAR?