Encampment Hazing Videos?

[Pylon]

Oh.  My.  God.

I just stumbled on this abhorrence on the internet.  Who is letting these cadets run wild like this?   

[links to videos redacted in the interest of any cadets unknowingly shown in these videos]

[Bluelakes 13]

WOW - CAWG must play under their own tune...

[dwb]

Hazing?  I'm not so sure that qualifies as hazing.

It's not how I would choose to lead drill, though.

[Pylon]

Hazing?  I'm not so sure that qualifies as hazing.

It's not how I would choose to lead drill, though.

Singling cadets out and yelling at the top of your lungs... hand-to-body contact while yelling... in the first video, the cadet they're zooming in on is crying while being screamed at...  if it's not hazing, it must certainly be right on the verge of it.

[LtCol Hooligan]

Hazing?  I'm not so sure that qualifies as hazing.

It's not how I would choose to lead drill, though.

Singling cadets out and yelling at the top of your lungs... hand-to-body contact while yelling... in the first video, the cadet they're zooming in on is crying while being screamed at...  if it's not hazing, it must certainly be right on the verge of it.

I watched that and I am not sure if they were actually yelling at that cadet.  I think one of the cadets in front of him or off camera was saying the Cadet Oath really loudly.  I could be completely wrong here, but it didn't seem like they were actually yelling at him.  I think he was just nervious about being in the room.  If you notice he had his flight manual out in his hand and the others did not.

The only video that I thought was border line was the cadet who turned the wrong way.  The two cadets swarmed him pretty fast and definately yelled directly at him.  This is different than the second video where he was talking to the entire flight and the cadet next to him.  I guess I remember having to carry a small rock on my left hand when I was at encampment so my perspective may be a little bit different. 

[mikeylikey]

HEY......if we can even question if it is hazing or not hazing......THAT IS A BAD THING. 

Signal the IG.......

[NIN]

Its all about context, and usually videos like this are missing if not ALL, than at least MOST of the context necessary to understand whether or not there is hazing going on.

One said will say "well, you had to be there to see what was going on." (context)
the other will say "Sorry, if it walks and talks like a duck, its a duck. That's hazing." (lacking additional context)

I'm not saying this video does or does not depict actual hazing. I'm just saying its ALWAYS hard to tell from a photograph (for sure) and a video (less so, but still difficult) what exactly is going on without more contextual parts.

[♠SARKID♠]

I watched that and I am not sure if they were actually yelling at that cadet.  I think one of the cadets in front of him or off camera was saying the Cadet Oath really loudly.

This is in the info part of the video description.

It was his choice to cry, and was the only one doing so. I learned later he was crying in fear of the possibility of not knowing the answer to the question he'd be asked.

But we're not really focusing on the Cadet in the video, but on another cadet sounding off to Sgt Fisher's questions of other cadets in his flight.

[mikeylikey]

They focused in on the cadet crying.  That was a pre-determined decision.  It doesn't take a smart guy to figure that out.

Then you have that Cadet First SGT.....is it really necessary to yell at someone for saying "Sir".

Lets just say.....it is tough to tell.  If we had some more vids to watch.........

[Stonewall]

Don't slam me folks, but I don't think it was all that bad.  I'm one of those "anti-Gunny Hartman" guys, like most people in CAP, but that video isn't to that level.  Not saying I would run my encampment in this manner, but it's about the same level of "verbal motivation" or as some call it, "hazing" as my cadet encampments.

Do cadets cry at encampment?  Absolutely.  Not always because of hazing though.  The pressure and stress of encampment will be handled differently by different types of people at different ages.  I had a cadet that cried and "got sick" at every activity.  We had to stop letting him come on FTX's because his mom always had to come get him because "he got sick".

Are AF Form 341s considered hazing?  I saw cadets cry when they got those because they wanted so bad to be "honor cadet" or whatever. 

There is a balance between a military environment and hazing, but some people think pulling back the sheets of a bunk because it was messed up is hazing.  I call it "letting the cadet know that he messed up and we know it".  YMMV.

[Major Lord]

I think you had better review the definition of hazing! None of those videos showed any hazing. Of course, if you think they did, you have a duty to immediately file an official complaint.... Quod Errat Demonstrandum..... California Wing provides an intense encampment experience. It is not the Girl Scout Llama Camp that many Wings put on, and I believe it is the finest encampment in the land!

Major Lord

[LittleIronPilot]

I think you had better review the definition of hazing! None of those videos showed any hazing. Of course, if you think they did, you have a duty to immediately file an official complaint.... Quod Errat Demonstrandum..... California Wing provides an intense encampment experience. It is not the Girl Scout Llama Camp that many Wings put on, and I believe it is the finest encampment in the land!

Major Lord

LOL...no kidding. That is NOT hazing people, sheesh.

[Ned]

California Wing provides an intense encampment experience.

Major Lord

Thank you for your kind words.

However, I should note that NONE of the videos in this thread were taken at a CAWG encampment.

It appears both from the backgrounds and comments on YouTube that these might have been taken at a Basic Cadet School or similar activity.

But they were not taken at encampment and are not representative of the general tone of a CAWG encampment.


It is also worth remembering that CAP has officially adopted the Department of Defense's own definition of hazing. IOW, CAP did not create our own special definition or adopt a definition from a non-military organization like a school.

Accordingly, if what is depicted in these videos would be hazing at at DoD activity, it would also be hazing for CAP.

Ned Lee
Former CAWG Encampment Commander, Commandant, Chief Tac, Tac and flunky at over 30 CAWG encampments

[Pylon]

Accordingly, if what is depicted in these videos would be hazing at at DoD activity, it would also be hazing for CAP.

Ned, I may have to respectfully disagree.  While our definition of hazing may be the same as the DoD's, I don't think that means that we can apply it the same in a cadet program.  For example, while some actions would not cause "humiliation" to an 20+ year-old Army Infantryman, the same actions applied in the same manner might very well be humiliating  to a 12 year old C/SrA.

(Speaking of humiliating, perhaps the cadet was crying because of stress levels completely unrelated to the actions of the flight staff.  But wouldn't you consider it "humiliating" to film him up close while he's crying and then post that on the internet?)

The other factor to keep in mind is that at a DoD activity, the individuals who are generally performing these types of actions are a lot better trained to do so than a 16-year-old Cadet CMSgt.  Passing the Armstrong achievement and sitting passively through RST is not Fort Jackson's Drill Instructor School.

So while the word-for-word definition we adopted from the DoD might be the same, I wouldn't expect it to mean the same thing in an adult, profession of arms context versus a CAP cadet programs context. 

I'm not an advocate of a "let's hold hands" environment for our cadets, and appreciate an intensive training environment.  But I also believe that the application of such a training attitude and environment must be done with the utmost care and supervision.

Perhaps nobody else sees the actions in the videos as hazing or cutting it close to the line, but they're certainly not actions I would allow from any of my cadet or senior leaders.  Nor would I expect to see any of these videos in a Cadet Protection Policy Training video as examples of acceptable behavior.   And absolutely they're not something I'd be putting online for the general public to see as examples of our Cadet Program at work.

How many here would also be comfortable watching these videos with the parents of your cadets?

[Eclipse]

These videos are the reason that an increasingly large number of encampments and simliar activities do not allow cadets to have cameras or cel phones.

I'm not an advocate of a "let's hold hands" environment for our cadets, and appreciate an intensive training environment.  But I also believe that the application of such a training attitude and environment must be done with the utmost care and supervision.

Perhaps nobody else sees the actions in the videos as hazing or cutting it close to the line, but they're certainly not actions I would allow from any of my cadet or senior leaders.  Nor would I expect to see any of these videos in a Cadet Protection Policy Training video as examples of acceptable behavior.   And absolutely they're not something I'd be putting online for the general public to see as examples of our Cadet Program at work.

How many here would also be comfortable watching these videos with the parents of your cadets?

BINGO!

[mikeylikey]

(Speaking of humiliating, perhaps the cadet was crying because of stress levels completely unrelated to the actions of the flight staff.  But wouldn't you consider it "humiliating" to film him up close while he's crying and then post that on the internet?)

Well said!  Spot on.

These videos are the reason that an increasingly large number of encampments and similar activities do not allow cadets to have cameras or cell phones.

If the reason for not having a camera is that an inappropriate action or situation is filmed, then we must ask, "perhaps everything should be filmed so that no inappropriate behavior takes place".  If we are afraid something like this makes it into the public view.....where the crap was the leadership??

Now, I hope someone in CAWG looks into this.  That crying cadet most likely did not give his permission to be humiliated on line.  In fact, if this is what is coming out of that activity, I am concerned at what may be deemed "too bad" to make it on line.

[Ned]

Accordingly, if what is depicted in these videos would be hazing at at DoD activity, it would also be hazing for CAP.

Ned, I may have to respectfully disagree. 

Actually, I don't think we disagree at all.

Please note I said that if was hazing at a DoD thing, it would be hazing in CAP.

I did not say, nor did I intend to imply the converse ("If it isn't hazing in the DoD, it can't be hazing in CAP.")

I agree that in a CAP context some things might occur to a 12 year old cadet that might not be hazing if it occurred to a 19 year old Marine at boot.

For many of the reasons you expressed.

Heck, I published an article pretty much saying the same thing on exactly this point here .

The point is that the DoD definition wisely adopted by our volunteer leaders was never intended to be considered or applied in a vacuum, but only after a careful consideration of the military training situation involved, the ages, maturity levels, and training of the participants, among other factors

Too many folks come away from RST or a CPP-type class thinking that we can never raise our voices to cadets, nor must cadets be exposed to any sort of a stressful environment.

If that's what the DoD meant in their definition, I suspect every DI and MTI that has ever trained a new recruit would be in Leavenworth right now . . .

What we need are seasoned CP leaders with common sense and life experience looking at each situation on a case-by-case basis to decide if a given behavior was hazing or not.


(And I can only agree that it is wrong to put a video on the net that contains recognizable images of our cadets without their express permission.)

[Pylon]

Ned, I may have to respectfully disagree. 

Actually, I don't think we disagree at all.

I apologize then for misinterpreting your post.   

[Ned]

Now, I hope someone in CAWG looks into this.  That crying cadet most likely did not give his permission to be humiliated on line. 

Concur.  Although I suspect it will be difficult to track down the poster and pursuade him/her to delete the video.

But we might start by deleting the offending link here. 

We (the CAP Talk community) sure didn't post it on YouTube, but we should not knowingly participate in spreading it further and/or publicizing its existence.

To the extent that the cadet in question might find it humiliating now or in the future, we should be in the business of helping and supporting him, not subjecting him to further exposure.

Mods?

Ned Lee
(Former Legal Officer)

[Pylon]

But we might start by deleting the offending link here. 

We (the CAP Talk community) sure didn't post it on YouTube, but we should not knowingly participate in spreading it further and/or publicizing its existence.

To the extent that the cadet in question might find it humiliating now or in the future, we should be in the business of helping and supporting him, not subjecting him to further exposure.

Mods?

Ned Lee
(Former Legal Officer)

It may perhaps be in the best interest of the cadets shown in those videos to remove the links.  I've gone ahead and voluntarily redacted them from my original post.  Unfortunately, some of those videos shown thousands of views, and YouTube is a tad more popular and more trafficked than CAPTalk.

[Eclipse]

If the reason for not having a camera is that an inappropriate action or situation is filmed, then we must ask, "perhaps everything should be filmed so that no inappropriate behavior takes place".  If we are afraid something like this makes it into the public view.....where the crap was the leadership??

Now, I hope someone in CAWG looks into this.  That crying cadet most likely did not give his permission to be humiliated on line.  In fact, if this is what is coming out of that activity, I am concerned at what may be deemed "too bad" to make it on line.

Yes, another excellent point - WHERE ARE THE SENIORS?

The "what >aren't< they posting?" question is valid as well, since while the media will generally post anything the see as "interesting" with no filter, most people make an assumption that what people post voluntarily, especially when the poster is involved, is positive for the organization or person depicted.

And once they are in the wild, there's no telling how they could be edited later - just about any photo or video, out of context, could be made to tell a different story.

Just like with secrets, when you multiply the number of cameras, you also multiply the number of people who can do something you don't approve of with the content.

As I tell my people all the, its bad enough if you are doing something dumb, but don't make the IG's work easier by providing the evidence yourself.

[NIN]

Yes, another excellent point - WHERE ARE THE SENIORS?

They're out in the parking lot, supervising drill....

[flyerthom]

(Speaking of humiliating, perhaps the cadet was crying because of stress levels completely unrelated to the actions of the flight staff.  But wouldn't you consider it "humiliating" to film him up close while he's crying and then post that on the internet?)

Another question, is posting this an attempt at cyber bullying? After the Megan Meir fiasco, this is something we need to think about. Why would a questionable video be posted in the first place? Watching someone cry is hardly educational, a positive recruiting technique or (if it was meant to be) amusing. What is the context of the posting? (hey if this post is messed up it because my cat tried to type it for me)

Perhaps nobody else sees the actions in the videos as hazing or cutting it close to the line, but they're certainly not actions I would allow from any of my cadet or senior leaders.  Nor would I expect to see any of these videos in a Cadet Protection Policy Training video as examples of acceptable behavior.   And absolutely they're not something I'd be putting online for the general public to see as examples of our Cadet Program at work.

How many here would also be comfortable watching these videos with the parents of your cadets?

Exactly why I would question the underlying motive for posting the video. Why would we want to put something out that could hurt CAP and would hurt the crying cadet.

[Briski]

Yeah, I'm really not so keen on the whole zooming in on the kid who's crying thing. His leaders should have been pulling him out for a one-on-one mentorship session to help him grow and learn how to cope with the stress level, not videotaping it to post on the internet later. Any way you slice it, that right there is just crappy leadership.

I'm not saying that we should coddle them. Notice that I recommended a one-on-one mentorship session. He was probably 12 or 13. These days, it was probably his first time away from home.

While it's a self-fulfilling prophecy (expect them to act like young adults, treat them like young adults, and soon enough they'll become young adults), we have to remember that deep down, some of them are kids. This doesn't mean that we expect them to behave like kids, it just means that we don't flip out when they do at first.

More than once, I counseled cadet staff members and CLS classmates who were crying from the stress. It's normal. Heck, I'll even go so far as to say it's good, within reasonable bounds.

But when it happens, it should be handled maturely. Here's to hopin' that as soon as the leaders noticed the cadet crying, they did their jobs.

Unlike the PAO.

[isuhawkeye]

has anyone thought about the fact that this kid may be to young for encampment???

[Eeyore]

Unlike the PAO.

I wouldn't necessarily blame the PAO for this video. PAO's can't control what every member puts on the internet when they feel like it. The member that posted this was likely a cadet who lacked the foresight to realize that this might shed a poor light on CAP (although SM's do that on occasion too, not everyone is perfect).

We try our best to portray CAP in a positive light to the public, but sometimes we just can't 

[Briski]

has anyone thought about the fact that this kid may be to young for encampment???

This is another good point, and something leaders need to take into consideration during the application process. By the time this situation was videotaped, it was way too late, unfortunately.

20/20 hindsight makes for some awesome leadership challenges.

Unlike the PAO.

I wouldn't necessarily blame the PAO for this video. PAO's can't control what every member puts on the internet when they feel like it. The member that posted this was likely a cadet who lacked the foresight to realize that this might shed a poor light on CAP (although SM's do that on occasion too, not everyone is perfect).

Okay, you've got a point... maybe it wasn't even the PAO who took the footage. I just assumed it was because I never had time to do stuff like that when I served on cadet staff, because it was PA's job and not mine.

But whoever was behind that camera - PA staff or not - should have put the camera down and made sure the leadership knew there was an issue, instead of exacerbating the situation by recording it.

[PHall]

has anyone thought about the fact that this kid may be to young for encampment???

That wasn't Encampment.  If my sources are right, that was a Basic Cadet School, which is a weekend activity.
Most units try to send their new troops to a BCS first before they go to Encampment.

Now, was that BCS being run "correctly"?  I don't know.
All we have to judge it on is the video, which covers about 16 minutes of a 40 hour activity.

[skandalintegra]

Hazing?  I'm not so sure that qualifies as hazing.

It's not how I would choose to lead drill, though.

Singling cadets out and yelling at the top of your lungs... hand-to-body contact while yelling... in the first video, the cadet they're zooming in on is crying while being screamed at...  if it's not hazing, it must certainly be right on the verge of it.

I'm glad I learned what a problem I have created.

The cadet you hear is in fact a basic cadet reciting his memory work, off camera.  The only staff members are the ones saying "You don't know your [cant remember exact work] either?" and "Are you prepared to serve your community state and nation Cadet X?" (Cadet X was the one you hear, after all) 

The focused Cadet Y was upset because he did not know his memory work and was afraid of the consequences.  When I found out we had a very unhappy cadet, I actually took Cadet Y aside and talked to him. He decided to stick out the rest of the activity.

Despite this, because this presents an unprofessional image; I have deleted the video.

I'm sorry for the incident, I'm going to take responsibility for this; I messed up. For those who were wondering why it was on the internet in the first place, I was foolish enough to let the cameraman upload it to my account so he could show his dad.  I apologize for my lack of attention to detail in not deleting it after his dad saw it.  If you have any questions about the issue, please, feel free to PM me and I will try to explain.

Once again I take responsibility for this mess, and the video is gone.

C/1st Lt Jackson

[jimmydeanno]

My only comment to you, Cadet, is that you might want to re-examine the leadership techniques that you and your peers use in CAP.  This should be a point of re-evaluation.

What really "bothers" me is this comment: "Cadet Y was upset because he did not know his memory work and was afraid of the consequences."

This makes me wonder about the environment that the cadet is placed in.  What happens in this environment that would make the cadets FEAR the consequences of not being able to recite something.  I have never seen an environment in CAP where things like this happened, not even at an encampment.

Perhaps you should investigate other methods of leadership that will instill the desire to learn and excel without fear of retribution.  Cadets are supposed to be having fun in CAP - does it look like he was having fun?

[Stonewall]

What really "bothers" me is this comment: "Cadet Y was upset because he did not know his memory work and was afraid of the consequences."

Consequences could be simple and not have anything to do with hazing, abuse, or anything negative.  A consequence could be that his flight fails to earn "honor flight" or goes last in the chow line.  As a 13 year old cadet, I wouldn't want to be the one that screwed it up for the rest of the flight.  He may be too young for this environment, but I don't think this environment is indicative of being abusive or even hazing. 

Just because a cadet cries doesn't mean he was hazed.  Simply being away from parents for the first time could make someone cry.  Then, on top of that, he has the pressure of memorizing his cadet oath.  These are not extreme requirements, nor are they over the top demands.

This makes me wonder about the environment that the cadet is placed in.  What happens in this environment that would make the cadets FEAR the consequences of not being able to recite something.  I have never seen an environment in CAP where things like this happened, not even at an encampment.

You know, we are a free jury here and our responses to this video, for those of us who saw it, are based on how many seconds of a 24 hour period?  Does it bother me that a cadet was crying?  No, not really.  If I were there, would I investigate the reason for him being upset?  Abso-freakin-lutely!  Chances are, the environment was overwhelming for him.  But if 30 other cadets are hackin' it, perhaps this one cadet may need some quick verbal confidence building to reassure him that he won't die, get beaten, miss a meal or get beat up.  Explain to the lad that it's cool, just grab your memory work and get to studying.  Maybe give him fire watch that night so he has the opportunity to practice his oath.  Fire watch isn't hazing is it?  I mean, it's practically a requirement in a military training environment and I have yet to see an encampment without it...

Perhaps you should investigate other methods of leadership that will instill the desire to learn and excel without fear of retribution.  Cadets are supposed to be having fun in CAP - does it look like he was having fun?

Absolutely.  I agree, if there is a way to motivate cadets to want to learn stuff that they may not think is necessary, i.e. the cadet oath, motto or CAP mission, then go for it.  And by no means would I advocate using scare tactics or threatening cadets with retribution, but the truth is, it's a competitive environment.  It's no different than flights competing in volleyball or on the track.  I've seen cadets cry after failing their 1 mile run requirement.  Is that hazing because we forced them to run and meet a standard?  Same goes for the cadet oath or other memory work. 

Personally, and I saw the same few second video everyone else saw, but I don't think it's a big deal to have a whole bunch of yelling going on.  I didn't hear anyone call anyone else "stupid" or use any profanity, nor did I hear anyone say they're going to beat their butts for not knowing their oath.

At encampment, leadership schools and basic cadet training activities like the one in the video, voices are elevated, points are made by saying things with inflection in your voice, a sense of urgency is expected among the trainees and stress is often a factor in many of the activities that happen at encampment.  To me, it's just part of the environment and sometimes cadets, even seniors, get overwhelmed by that environment and can't hack it.  But with a little motivation, a pat on the back, and some encouragement by their leadership, all things can be overcome.

Hit, threaten, or haze someone and you're out.  It's just that simple.

[jimmydeanno]

The example you use about the cadet crying about not passing his PT exam, IMO, is different.  There is the stress that a cadet puts on themselves because they want to be a valid member of the team or want to accomplish their own goals.  When they fail to meet those goals, they are disappointed in themselves - self-induced.

The crying that *could* be happening here is an externally induced crying.  A 12 year old cadet who just joined CAP because someone told him it was going to be fun, now he's getting yelled at (not individually, but at 12 do you really know the difference?)  He's probably thinking - what did I sign up for?

There are plenty of ways to instill discipline and get people to want to learn these things without a mass yelling session.  Good leaders make people want to do things for them because they don't want to disappoint them, because they want to better themselves, not because they don't want to be yelled at.

You can create a sense of urgency and stress without these types of actions.  I don't think that what we saw would constitute hazing, but I do believe there are far better ways of handling what was going on.

I remember as a cadet wanting to not let my team down and wanting to be accepted by them.  I don't think they ever once yelled at me, but what they did do is encourage me to learn the things I did. There was motivation from my teammates and peers - we had a darn good squadron. 

I was afraid of disappointing my team not because they were going to yell at me, but because I wanted to prove I was part of it.

If you were a squadron commander/activity director, would you go do what the cadet leaders in the video did? (rhetorical)

I see videos like this and these types of things come to mind:

QUOTE 1: "This is a junior military training organization. We should be tough on our cadets. The actual dictionary definition of cadet is future officer in the military..."

QUOTE 2: "My squadron is REALLY hardcore. They put us in a FACTS (First Achievement Cadet Training School) Lock-in for a few days. 3 kids passed out, 1 couldn't finish, and a lot were crying. It was like bootcamp (screaming in your face, getting told everything you do is wrong, getting chairs thrown at you, having guard duty at night, 3:30 A.M. wakeups, 5 miles run, a bunch of push-ups, that kind of thing). If you don't show up for a meeting, you get a demerit. My squadron is really hardcore and takes CAP and military customs/courtesies very seriously. An officer walked by and I was the only one who saluted and no one called the area to attention, so all the cadets could not take a PRB (promotion review board) for promoting, so all were failed for their promotions because they didn't salute. "

Does your boss at work scream at you all day? (again, rhetorical)

[mikeylikey]

Does your boss at work scream at you all day?

[Pylon]

Does your boss at work scream at you all day?

My old boss did.  But then again, it was an unproductive work environment and we learned nothing from his poor, authoritative attitude.  The following director has more of a collaborative, mentoring attitude and my work environment is much more healthy, and we actually enjoy coming to work and want to do our jobs.  Nobody yelling at me (at work) is going to convince me or instill me to work harder or do something better.

[mikeylikey]

Does your boss at work scream at you all day?

My old boss did.  But then again, it was an unproductive work environment and we learned nothing from his poor, authoritative attitude.  The following director has more of a collaborative, mentoring attitude and my work environment is much more healthy, and we actually enjoy coming to work and want to do our jobs.  Nobody yelling at me (at work) is going to convince me or instill me to work harder or do something better.

Nicely said!  I would add; Someone yelling at me would actually make me want to do less work for that person.

[Briski]

Nicely said!  I would add; Someone yelling at me would actually make me want to do less work for that person.

Yeah, dude. I can speak from personal experience that while so many people seem to think it'd make the CAP CP tougher, after a while, excessive yelling and incentive physical training (namely pushups) become incentive to mess up in and of themselves. Because when all they're going to do is get mad and yell and drop you, there is no end to the amount of fun you can have at their expense.

:angel:

Seriously... it's a proven fact that sooner or later, they're going to tune you out. You won't be training the ones who tune you out sooner, and it's only a matter of time 'til the ones who tune you out later feel like they're being hazed. And for obvious reasons, in general, it doesn't matter whether you meant to haze them or not; it all depends on their (legitimate) interpretation.

Remember, kids, it's all fun and games 'til people start getting suspended pending CPP-related investigations.

[mikeylikey]

^ True that!

[LittleIronPilot]

LOL...I guess military basic is broken, worthless, and does not work, I mean they *yell* (OH MY GOSH) at you. They may even hurt your feelings.

Some people kill me with their views....

[jimmydeanno]

Our cadets are not attending military basic training - that is not the purpose of the CP.  The "yelling" that is done at BT is different.  Take for instance yelling at you during a live fire exercise - if you can't keep your concentration then, how are you going to in the event you actually need to deploy those skills.

Military Basic Training vs. CAP Cadet Program - TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS!

Other thought - BMT instructors are educated as to properly apply those techniques in the correct situations.  What is the rule for equipment during ES?  Don't bring it or use it if you don't know how.  How many of our seniors or cadets have been to a MTI school?  That's what I thought.

[Stonewall]

A regular weekly meeting is not the same beast as an encampment.  At encampment, there are motivational chants where one flight tries to out "yell" the other.  You wouldn't even find that at a weekly meeting, weekend ES exercise or CAC meeting.

No one at an encampment should be yelling at anyone else.  As I said above, there will be voice inflection as to make sure the entire squadron or encampment can hear what is being said.  Some may consider this "yelling", but it isn't directed at any one individual.

I'm sure we've all heard the flight commander say something like this:

FC:  "Be ready for 0630 formation.  Any questions?"

Flight:  No, sir!

FC:  "I can't hear you!

Flight:  No, sir!

FC:  "I STILL CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!

Flight:  NO, SIR!!!

FC:  "SAY WHAT?"

Flight:  No, sir!

FC:  "HOOAH!  Go to sleep!"

Anyway, some people get it and can accomplish an enviornment with a sense of urgency, attention to detail, high morale and verbal motivation without even coming close to the hazing line.  Others, they simply think it's a seen out of Full Metal Jacket and can't comprehend the difference between reality and fantasy.

[skandalintegra]

My only comment to you, Cadet, is that you might want to re-examine the leadership techniques that you and your peers use in CAP.  This should be a point of re-evaluation.

What really "bothers" me is this comment: "Cadet Y was upset because he did not know his memory work and was afraid of the consequences."

This makes me wonder about the environment that the cadet is placed in.  What happens in this environment that would make the cadets FEAR the consequences of not being able to recite something.  I have never seen an environment in CAP where things like this happened, not even at an encampment.

Perhaps you should investigate other methods of leadership that will instill the desire to learn and excel without fear of retribution.  Cadets are supposed to be having fun in CAP - does it look like he was having fun?

I don't know, it wasn't me taking the video, and I was not going around yelling.  You can ask any senior member who has been my TAC or any senior member who has worked with me closely, and I'm sure every one of them will say that I don't resort to the "yelling" type of motivation.  I'm typically one of the more quiet types that when he speaks, he is listened to.

At encampment in Colorado last summer, I was actually the "friend" type of staff member cadets came to, even though I was the squadron first sergeant.  I got bit by a brown recluse spider halfway through the encampment, and during personal prep time I would say that at least 15-20 basic cadets came to my dorm to see how I was doing or if I needed any help with anything. 

I appreciate the opportunities CAP has given me to figure out my leadership style, and I believe I have found it to be most effective in befriending my superiors and subordinates, while still getting the job done.  This is the same kind of leadership style I hope I can take into the Marine Corps with me in a few years.

In the video, this kid is 12 years old, and he was probably thinking he was going to get into trouble for not knowing his memory work, when in fact if someone doesn't know it, a staff member will go on to another cadet who does know it and make sure the first cadet learns from the cadet that knows.  The biggest punishment for not knowing memory work is simply the feeling of personally disappointment. At least that's how it was when I was a C/AB back in January 06.

Maybe not everyone does that, but that's what I do.  I don't resort to screaming and shouting because the cadet that has to scream to get something done has lost his professional bearing.

That's my spin on it. 

Edit for spelling correction.

[Eclipse]

At encampment in Colorado last summer, I was actually the "friend" type of staff member cadets came to, even though I was the squadron first sergeant.  I got bit by a brown recluse spider halfway through the encampment, and during personal prep time I would say that at least 15-20 basic cadets came to my dorm to see how I was doing or if I needed any help with anything. 

Why didn't you just go home?

[skandalintegra]

Because I caught the [darn] spider biting me, and got to the medic before anything bad happened.

I'm not someone who will let a minor (controlled) inconvenience get in the way of my work. 

Seems like people want to jump down my throat for everything I do lately.  I guess it's not good enough that I can accept 100% responsibility for something I was 50% at fault for.

[Major Lord]

C/LT Jackson,

There are many Seniors in CAP who have no military experience, and little or no experience in Cadet Programs. While many of them are shocked by seeing Cadet activities in progress, and subsequently want to change the program ( to bring it more into conformity with Girl Scout Llama Camp, Cub Scouts, Happy Panda Church Youth Group, or whatever their background is) They don't get a vote! I have met, and I am sure that you have met, many "flying club" seniors that would prefer that our Cadet Programs were run like their side of the house. i.e, a bunch of obese,Monday morning quarter backs in golf shirts watching power point presentations. The heck with that! You know, and I know, and everyone else who actually is involved in Cadet Programs knows, that the measure of satisfaction a Cadet takes home from these activities is directly proportional to his or her perception of the intensity of the training. While I agree that posting the videos was imprudent ( mostly because it causes heart palpitations in these C-Squareds Seniors) There is not a darn thing wrong with providing an educational, motivational, and intense training experience. Did you hear of any accusations of hazing from any of the attendees? No one else did either, I would wager. My guess is that they walked taller, and saw that the grass was a little greener and the sky was a a little bluer, after graduation. Keep running good, high power cadet activities! Don't let the hypogonadism that is so pervasive in CAP turn out a cadet program that generates whiny little losers proudly claiming victim status. Lets not help create another 60's generation of timid souls who have never known neither victory or defeat!

Major Lord

[ZigZag911]

Major Lord, perhaps your efforts at motivating C/Lt. Jackson would resonate more with others if your emphasis were on accentuating the positive (building team work, offering a challenging, exciting program) than the negative (critiquing the physique, clothing and general attitude of all those who do not share your view of CAP).

Senior members need to curtail their enthusiasm at times so that it is not misinterpreted by cadet leaders. When we go over the top -- and, in my opinion, you certainly approached the line in this last post, if not actually crossing it -- they see this and presume it's OK to follow our example.

Your passion is commendable, it needs to be tempered with some prudence.