Nevada Green Flag West Squadron

[Short Field]

Just saw where Nevada Wing has created a senior squadron just for people to fly the Surrogate Predator mission.  How many of you are joining it?

[RiverAux]

I guess they don't have to worry about losing "their" airplane. 

[lordmonar]

Just saw where Nevada Wing has created a senior squadron just for people to fly the Surrogate Predator mission.  How many of you are joining it?

It is even worse than that.

[Eclipse]

Let's see...

Its Nevada, so I'll put my money on the table and place a bet.

They are simply recruiting active USAF personnel to join CAP to fly the missions, rather than training and utilizing "regular" volunteers.

Close?

[Flying Pig]

Wow.  A CAP Sq where the focus on ONE very specialized mission.  Interesting.  I didnt realize that was the intent of any Sq.?

[lordmonar]

They are not even going to fly the SUAV mission.  They are forming the squadron to just give the AD/RES UAV pilots a chance to fly for cheap/free in CAP aircraft!

[Short Field]

Except they just had a bunch of non-military pilots transfer into it from the other squadrons.  Sounds like a real GOB flying unit.

[Eclipse]

They are not even going to fly the SUAV mission.  They are forming the squadron to just give the AD/RES UAV pilots a chance to fly for cheap/free in CAP aircraft!

I guess I should have taken the under.  Wonders never cease... 

[MikeD]

So does this mean don't hold my breath related to my acceptance for this program?

[FARRIER]

They are not even going to fly the SUAV mission.  They are forming the squadron to just give the AD/RES UAV pilots a chance to fly for cheap/free in CAP aircraft!

I thought this is what on-base flying clubs were for?

[DG]

How can we learn more details on this?

Real deal, specific details.

A squadron such as this is just what we are looking for / needing here.

And will advance the aviation program.

[Short Field]

Maybe Lordmonar has more details.  I heard about it from a friend who didn't believe it.  According to him, there has been no announcements from the wing king about a new squadron.  I check the wing's squadrons in eservices and sure enough Nevada had just added a new one.  That makes the 8th squadron in the Las Vegas area.  I wonder if it is going to be the 4th squadron that meets at the North Las Vegas Airport?

[bosshawk]

And the plot thickens!!!!!!

[Al Sayre]

Before I read anything nefarious into this I might consider that they are consolidating all of the participating personnel into a single squadron to make it easier to do the Ops Quals and other paperwork that seems to constantly arise.  The aircraft requires a completely separate form 5/91 due to the airframe changes etc.  I have one of my members participating in LA, and I'm constantly having to go in an approve or re-approve something to do with his GF quals.  Some of the IP's and CP's are not even from my region and it makes it a bit of a pain.  Having everyone in a single squadron would lessen the workloads of several Squadron ESO's & CC's.

[flyguy06]

Have they already started the Predetor training?

[RiverAux]

Hmm, reminds me of our special tow target and coastal patrol units in WWII, except those apparently answerable to NHQ rather than the Wings they resided in (Exactly how that relationship worked would be an interesting historical study, but I doubt records exist to support one). 

[Thom]

Have they already started the Predetor training?

The SP program has been running for a few months now.

They even considered deploying an aircraft to Haiti in the wake of the recent earthquake, though the idea wasn't actually implemented.

So, yes, training has been going on for a while.

Thom

[lordmonar]

Have they already started the Predetor training?

Yes....they have had several training cycles in LAWG.  NVWG gets their plane in April/May and we start our training sometime after that.

[blackrain]

They are not even going to fly the SUAV mission.  They are forming the squadron to just give the AD/RES UAV pilots a chance to fly for cheap/free in CAP aircraft!

I guess this is a consolation prize for all those non-volled (spelling?) pilots who got stuck flying UAVs.

You know 10 years ago you were considered in the AF flying community as second class by SOME (I emphasize SOME) if you flew anything other than fighter aircraft. Now they're forming a "squadron" so AF Pilots can fly single engine piston aircraft which i bet at one time would have been beneath them.

Funny how times have changed.

[Flying Pig]

I would be interested in seeing who joins that particular Sq.  I have a feeling most sorties are going to be filled by guys who do guess what for a living in their day job?  I heard that the program prevents military predator crews from flying the missions, but I imagine nothing says military predator crews can join CAP and do it in their "off" time.

How 'bout CAWG create a squadron only for people who fly CD?  That would be cool.  We could have a secret compound with razor wire and only depart under cover of darkness with no aircraft lights.

Now in all fairness, Im assuming any CAP could join that unit correct?  Or is it somehow restricted to only people accepted the predator program?

[PHall]

We just had a fatal accident here in SoCal where two CA ANG UAV pilots were killed while performing acrobatics in the Yak-52 one of them owned.
From what I have been told by some friends in that unit the pilots are encouraged to fly on the "outside" to keep their pilot skills sharp.

[Short Field]

I was told that the squadron was suppose to be limited to active/reserve military but ended up with a lot of non-military pilots transferring into it (GOBs) from other Las Vegas area squadrons.   They wanted a new squadron so they would not be pressured to do any ES training or get ES qualifications.  Rumint is members of the squadron will not have to wear a CAP uniform.  I am getting this third and fourth hand from some very PO'ed people.

[FARRIER]

I was told that the squadron was suppose to be limited to active/reserve military but ended up with a lot of non-military pilots transferring into it (GOBs) from other Las Vegas area squadrons.   They wanted a new squadron so they would not be pressured to do any ES training or get ES qualifications.  Rumint is members of the squadron will not have to wear a CAP uniform.  I am getting this third and fourth hand from some very PO'ed people.

I'm not understanding the GOB acronym?

[SarDragon]

Not an acronym, rather an initialism - pronounced letter by letter, G-O-B, standing for Good Olde Boys. It's generally seen as pejorative.

[MikeD]

We just had a fatal accident here in SoCal where two CA ANG UAV pilots were killed while performing acrobatics in the Yak-52 one of them owned.
From what I have been told by some friends in that unit the pilots are encouraged to fly on the "outside" to keep their pilot skills sharp.

CA ANG has UAVs?   What type and flying out of where?  I thought the only mission flights were out of Beale for Global Hawk, plus assorted production sites and test flights in the Edwards/Palmdale and China Lake areas?

[lordmonar]

We just had a fatal accident here in SoCal where two CA ANG UAV pilots were killed while performing acrobatics in the Yak-52 one of them owned.
From what I have been told by some friends in that unit the pilots are encouraged to fly on the "outside" to keep their pilot skills sharp.

CA ANG has UAVs?   What type and flying out of where?  I thought the only mission flights were out of Beale for Global Hawk, plus assorted production sites and test flights in the Edwards/Palmdale and China Lake areas?

CANG, NYANG, NDANG, TXANG and one AFRES squadron fly MQ-1s.

[blackrain]

I was told that the squadron was suppose to be limited to active/reserve military but ended up with a lot of non-military pilots transferring into it (GOBs) from other Las Vegas area squadrons.   They wanted a new squadron so they would not be pressured to do any ES training or get ES qualifications.  Rumint is members of the squadron will not have to wear a CAP uniform.  I am getting this third and fourth hand from some very PO'ed people.

Do CAP regs permit restricting membership/uniform policies in that manner? I know things can potentially happen under the table but can they be done that way officially?

[RiverAux]

There is something allowing flights to be made without uniforms based the wishes of the requesting agency.  I don't recall that clause being limited to CD work even though that is what it is for.  So, if AF wanted to ask, it could work for the actual missions.  Wouldn't get them out of having to wear uniforms to certain other CAP activities though. 

[PHall]

We just had a fatal accident here in SoCal where two CA ANG UAV pilots were killed while performing acrobatics in the Yak-52 one of them owned.
From what I have been told by some friends in that unit the pilots are encouraged to fly on the "outside" to keep their pilot skills sharp.

CA ANG has UAVs?   What type and flying out of where?  I thought the only mission flights were out of Beale for Global Hawk, plus assorted production sites and test flights in the Edwards/Palmdale and China Lake areas?

163rd Reconnaissance Wing, March ARB. The headquarters and the control center is at March while the aircraft are flown out of the Southern California Logistics Airport (aka George AFB) near Victorville.
The 163rd is the Air Guard Schoolhouse for the MQ-1/MQ-9. They take some of the load off of the shoulders the 432nd at Creech AFB.

[blackrain]

There is something allowing flights to be made without uniforms based the wishes of the requesting agency.  I don't recall that clause being limited to CD work even though that is what it is for.  So, if AF wanted to ask, it could work for the actual missions.  Wouldn't get them out of having to wear uniforms to certain other CAP activities though.

Wow. I somewhat understand the CD rationale. But when we're deployed downrange we have to wear a uniform with our name on it where interaction with less than respectable people is possible on a daily basis. Of course they don't have to wear a uniform 3000+ feet over Bicycle Lake at NTC. Yea that makes sense. 

[lordmonar]

I'm a little too close and on the wrong side of this argument.

I will say though...is that National is aware and as far as I know approves of everything that is happening.  So there is no use in yelling about regulations. 

[Gunner C]

I'm a little too close and on the wrong side of this argument.

I will say though...is that National is aware and as far as I know approves of everything that is happening.  So there is no use in yelling about regulations.

Yep, double standards are better than no standards at all.

[Flying Pig]

We just had a fatal accident here in SoCal where two CA ANG UAV pilots were killed while performing acrobatics in the Yak-52 one of them owned.
From what I have been told by some friends in that unit the pilots are encouraged to fly on the "outside" to keep their pilot skills sharp.

CA ANG has UAVs?   What type and flying out of where?  I thought the only mission flights were out of Beale for Global Hawk, plus assorted production sites and test flights in the Edwards/Palmdale and China Lake areas?

Yeah....and I was VERY close to joining it as a sensor operator until I found out it was 1 yr OJT after school and 4 day drills.

The issue with not wearing uniforms for CD isnt about while your flying, its about after you've landed and your away from the plane.   The surveillance plane I fly, I dont wear anything work related for that reason.  Ive had people walk into the FBO looking for the pilot.  I just sit there and shrug my shoulders.  The guy at the airport I am at the most plays the game right along with me.  Usually, they are just curious about the gear hanging off of it. 
Unless its someone from bosshawks posse!

However, I dont like the idea that people are joining CAP soley as an "admin" check the box measure. 

[PHall]

We had a bunch of people join CAP back in the 90's just so they could fly for cheap at Military Aeroclubs. So this is nothing new.

[Short Field]

My understanding is that they just don't want to be bothered with wearing a CAP uniform and would rather wear a USAF flight suit - with USAF grade and insignia and not CAP grade and insignia.  This is NOT about mission requirements but about letting people fly CAP airplanes without having to meet the CAP "BS" training requirements.  I just really wonder why they were letting non-military CAP pilots transfer to the squadron.

[PA Guy]

^^^^^
Double standards at their finest.

[Flying Pig]

We had a bunch of people join CAP back in the 90's just so they could fly for cheap at Military Aeroclubs. So this is nothing new.

People join CAP everyday looking to only fly and not be bothered with anything else.  We just havn't created squadrons to support them.  Look, they are Air Force Pilots and personnel.  A far cry from Joe Citizen looking for cheap flight time.  And I would venture to guess every one of them would make an outstanding CAP member were they to join on their own.  I just wonder why the Air Force chose to involve CAP in this.  You mean to tell me the Air Force cant maintain their own C182 and find a couple full time pilots to fly it?  Why involve CAP in this mission?  It almost seems like it was set up to fail from the start.
What irritates me is that CAP should have just come out and said it.  Not have them join a made up Squadron so they are "volunteers" on paper.  Next thing we will see is this amazing new Squadron being featured in the Volunteer magazine covering how all of these citizen volunteers represent CAP at its finest.  It should be interesting showing up down their for the training.  So I guess just keep in mind we are the outsiders guests and have fun with whatever they allow us to do.

[blackrain]

I'm curious if said AF personnel will be in a duty or leave status when they participate. I think the AF has pretty liberal leave policies for CAP participation already IIRC.

I'm sure from a funding perspective CAP is a great way to keep the UAV crews flying something by "flying under the radar" from a money perspective.......No pun intended

[blackrain]

Does anybody know if there is an equivalent Specialized Senior Squadron for Green Flag East  over in Louisiana? On a side note does anyone know of any CAP squadrons commanded by an AD (not retired) O-5 or above anywhere in the US? I would imagine it would be rare but I don't know.

[Al Sayre]

^^
Not that I have heard, and I have several members of my Wing and Squadron participating, although LA is in SWR vs SER.

[Short Field]

On a side note does anyone know of any CAP squadrons commanded by an AD (not retired) O-5 or above anywhere in the US?

PCR-NV-071, Green Flag West Support Senior Squadron

[Flying Pig]

Thats what blackrain was talking about.  In addition to the Sq in NV.

[Captain Morgan]

The GOBs are a real problem in CAP.  I've heard some serious Nevada GOB stories!  When I joined, there were a few pockets of GOBs in KY, but I'm glad to say they've pretty much been eradicated, silenced, or reluctantly converted to productive CAP members.  GOBs are basically lazy, so it is easy to overcome them by ganging up and volunteering for staff and leadership positions.  When you're in charge, the GOBs can be overruled.

Our region, however, has a GOB Archer Squadron.  I was uniquely qualified to work with the Archer technology because of work experience, but was ignored when I refused to abandon my Squadron to join the Archer Squadron.  We were required to utilize them in our Eval a couple of years ago.  They showed up unprepared and we basically sent them home unused.

GOBs suck the wind out of energetic new members and have to go.

[Gunner C]

NCWG has two GOB units.  One is "The Charlotte Air Force."  A while back, you couldn't use their aircraft, even if it was sitting there collecting dust.  The other is the folks around Raleigh.  Last I heard they had 3 aircraft there when there are other units dying on the vine for lack of aircraft.

The Nevada GFS sounds like it will end up being the same, except they won't need those pesky uniforms.

[a2capt]

Too bad it's not this simple:



In PCR, NVWG is certainly not alone. Sad to say..

[Flying Pig]

There is one person responsible for those types of units, and thats the Wing CC's.  I can honestly say that I dont know of any GOB Sqs of any real significance in CAWG.