Form 5 in multi engine aircraft

[flyguy06]

I saw this in 60-1 but I have never heard of anyone actually doing this. Do we actually have CAP members that have form 5's in multi engine aircraft?

[FW]

Sure, just fill out the questinaire and get a check pilot to give you the Form 5....
Oh, did you want it paid for?

[MooneyMeyer]

What type multi-engine aircraft does CAP fly and where are they?

[flyguy06]

What type multi-engine aircraft does CAP fly and where are they?

Thats my question. I didnt think CAP had multi engine aircraft

[davidsinn]

What type multi-engine aircraft does CAP fly and where are they?

Thats my question. I didnt think CAP had multi engine aircraft

We have(had?) one multi. Check WMIRS. I think I heard it was going away?

[FW]

Realisticly, we don't have any multiengine aircraft in the fleet however, there is a use for them in our missions.  For those missions, we use member owned/provided aircraft and the reimbursement rates can be found in CAPR 173-3.  If you want a form 5 in such an aircraft, all you have to do is find the check pilot and do the paper work.   

[Flying Pig]

There are members in CA who have privately owned multi engine planes.  But they are rarely flown.  In fact, if Im not mistaken, one has the CAP paint scheme minus the markings.

[flynd94]

Sweet I go for my 6 month ride at the end of the month.  I could be the only B1900D pilot in CAP.  Now I just wonder how the company check airmen will look at this 

[bosshawk]

Keith: finding a CAP check pilot who can give a Form 5 in a 1900 might be a bit difficult.  The company might be a bit reluctant to have you use one of their birds to do your Form 91.  Let me know when you would like to do your 91 and I'll make the time.

[flyguy06]

Sweet I go for my 6 month ride at the end of the month.  I could be the only B1900D pilot in CAP.  Now I just wonder how the company check airmen will look at this 
[/quote

Thats would be funny.Cool but funny. lol

[flyguy06]

So, basically Icould rent a twin, find a CAP check pilot and do a form 5?

[bosshawk]

Sure: just be sure that the Check Pilot is multi-rated and rated in the twin that you rent.  Knock yourself out.

[Mustang]

No idea if it's true or not, but I've heard there's a guy in AZ who is Form 5'd in his privately owned Citation and flew it on transport missions in the days after 9/11.

[DG]

Sure: just be sure that the Check Pilot is multi-rated and rated in the twin that you rent.  Knock yourself out.

The CAP check pilot only needs to be rated in category and class.

[DG]

Sure, just fill out the questinaire and get a check pilot to give you the Form 5....
Oh, did you want it paid for?

When I got my AMEL, I had the FAA designated examiner fill out the Form 5, and then had a CAP check pilot cover the CAP specific portions.

The difficulty is that you need to get one every year thereafter, or it goes away.

[flyguy06]

Not a problem at all. I work at a Flight school and the owner is also a CAP check pilot. he owns a Seneca that he keeps in the club. so I can just do that then. I just wonder what the feasibility of getting one is though.

[BlueLakes1]

Keith: finding a CAP check pilot who can give a Form 5 in a 1900 might be a bit difficult.  The company might be a bit reluctant to have you use one of their birds to do your Form 91.  Let me know when you would like to do your 91 and I'll make the time.

CAPR 60-1, 3-2 (a) doth say that....

"A CAPF 5 flight check may be administered by a CAP check pilot, or it may be administered by a FAA Inspector, FAA designated check airman, FAA designated pilot examiner, or CAP-USAF flight examiner provided the individual administering the flight check completes and signs the CAPF 5 and the CAP specific items are verbally covered by a CAP Check Pilot who also signs the CAPF 5."
(Italics mine)

"FAA Designated Check Airman" refers to one who is employed by a Part 135 or Part 121 Air Carrier, and who is designated to administer check rides for the company. If you can get one to sign off on the Form 5, you'd only need the CAP check pilot to give the oral. I'll be using my next PC-12 check for a Form 5. While I'll certainly never fly a PC-12 on CAP business, at the end of the day it's a Group II plane, and getting a signoff will keep me and/or the wing from funding my rides, should I ever let my G1000 qual go. (And there are options in Ops Quals for PC-12, and a couple different types of Citations and King Airs.)

When I got my AMEL, I had the FAA designated examiner fill out the Form 5, and then had a CAP check pilot cover the CAP specific portions.

The difficulty is that you need to get one every year thereafter, or it goes away.

Now that was probably a no-no...

CAPR 60-1 3-6 doth say...

"3-6. Airplane Qualifications. In order to operate certain CAP Airplane models, pilots (other than CAP Solo pilots) must meet one or more of the following requirements:

b. Multi-Engine Airplanes – 250 hours total PIC airplane time of which at least 50 hours PIC and 50 takeoffs and landings are in multi-engine airplanes."

If you had 50 ME PIC hours and 50 takeoffs and landings when you got your AMEL, I apologize, but it is pretty uncommon for a newly minted MEL pilot to have that. I'd still be ineligible to take a From 5 in a ME plane, as most of my ME time is SIC time.

[flyguy06]

Keith: finding a CAP check pilot who can give a Form 5 in a 1900 might be a bit difficult.  The company might be a bit reluctant to have you use one of their birds to do your Form 91.  Let me know when you would like to do your 91 and I'll make the time.

CAPR 60-1, 3-2 (a) doth say that....

"A CAPF 5 flight check may be administered by a CAP check pilot, or it may be administered by a FAA Inspector, FAA designated check airman, FAA designated pilot examiner, or CAP-USAF flight examiner provided the individual administering the flight check completes and signs the CAPF 5 and the CAP specific items are verbally covered by a CAP Check Pilot who also signs the CAPF 5."
(Italics mine)

"FAA Designated Check Airman" refers to one who is employed by a Part 135 or Part 121 Air Carrier, and who is designated to administer check rides for the company. If you can get one to sign off on the Form 5, you'd only need the CAP check pilot to give the oral. I'll be using my next PC-12 check for a Form 5. While I'll certainly never fly a PC-12 on CAP business, at the end of the day it's a Group II plane, and getting a signoff will keep me and/or the wing from funding my rides, should I ever let my G1000 qual go. (And there are options in Ops Quals for PC-12, and a couple different types of Citations and King Airs.)

When I got my AMEL, I had the FAA designated examiner fill out the Form 5, and then had a CAP check pilot cover the CAP specific portions.

The difficulty is that you need to get one every year thereafter, or it goes away.

Now that was probably a no-no...

CAPR 60-1 3-6 doth say...

"3-6. Airplane Qualifications. In order to operate certain CAP Airplane models, pilots (other than CAP Solo pilots) must meet one or more of the following requirements:

b. Multi-Engine Airplanes – 250 hours total PIC airplane time of which at least 50 hours PIC and 50 takeoffs and landings are in multi-engine airplanes."

If you had 50 ME PIC hours and 50 takeoffs and landings when you got your AMEL, I apologize, but it is pretty uncommon for a newly minted MEL pilot to have that. I'd still be ineligible to take a From 5 in a ME plane, as most of my ME time is SIC time.

fellas,

I think he was just kidding abou the whole getting a form 5 in a Beech 1900. He was being lighthearted.

[PHall]

Keith: finding a CAP check pilot who can give a Form 5 in a 1900 might be a bit difficult.  The company might be a bit reluctant to have you use one of their birds to do your Form 91.  Let me know when you would like to do your 91 and I'll make the time.

CAPR 60-1, 3-2 (a) doth say that....

"A CAPF 5 flight check may be administered by a CAP check pilot, or it may be administered by a FAA Inspector, FAA designated check airman, FAA designated pilot examiner, or CAP-USAF flight examiner provided the individual administering the flight check completes and signs the CAPF 5 and the CAP specific items are verbally covered by a CAP Check Pilot who also signs the CAPF 5."
(Italics mine)

"FAA Designated Check Airman" refers to one who is employed by a Part 135 or Part 121 Air Carrier, and who is designated to administer check rides for the company. If you can get one to sign off on the Form 5, you'd only need the CAP check pilot to give the oral. I'll be using my next PC-12 check for a Form 5. While I'll certainly never fly a PC-12 on CAP business, at the end of the day it's a Group II plane, and getting a signoff will keep me and/or the wing from funding my rides, should I ever let my G1000 qual go. (And there are options in Ops Quals for PC-12, and a couple different types of Citations and King Airs.)

When I got my AMEL, I had the FAA designated examiner fill out the Form 5, and then had a CAP check pilot cover the CAP specific portions.

The difficulty is that you need to get one every year thereafter, or it goes away.

Now that was probably a no-no...

CAPR 60-1 3-6 doth say...

"3-6. Airplane Qualifications. In order to operate certain CAP Airplane models, pilots (other than CAP Solo pilots) must meet one or more of the following requirements:

b. Multi-Engine Airplanes – 250 hours total PIC airplane time of which at least 50 hours PIC and 50 takeoffs and landings are in multi-engine airplanes."

If you had 50 ME PIC hours and 50 takeoffs and landings when you got your AMEL, I apologize, but it is pretty uncommon for a newly minted MEL pilot to have that. I'd still be ineligible to take a From 5 in a ME plane, as most of my ME time is SIC time.

fellas,

I think he was just kidding abou the whole getting a form 5 in a Beech 1900. He was being lighthearted.

Knowing Keith, I wouldn't be too sure about that.

[bosshawk]

I have known Keith for a long while and I am not too sure that he was kidding.

Just think, he saved us from at least 100 posts on uniforms by even bringing this subject up.

[flyguy06]

I have known Keith for a long while and I am not too sure that he was kidding.

Just think, he saved us from at least 100 posts on uniforms by even bringing this subject up.

LOL. true.

I remember when I was on active duty stationed in Hawaii. I had transferred my CAP membership to the HIWG. I remember there being a CAP twin, some Italian aircraft twin engine piston fixed gear. It had all the CAP markings and everything. This was in 1997 though.

[BlueLakes1]

I have known Keith for a long while and I am not too sure that he was kidding.

Just think, he saved us from at least 100 posts on uniforms by even bringing this subject up.

LOL. true.

I remember when I was on active duty stationed in Hawaii. I had transferred my CAP membership to the HIWG. I remember there being a CAP twin, some Italian aircraft twin engine piston fixed gear. It had all the CAP markings and everything. This was in 1997 though.

I think those were Partenavias, weren't they?

[ricecakecm]

I had Form 5's in a King Air 90, Baron and Duchess at one point.  I know people who have had Form 5's in King Air 200s and Citation X's (C750 is an option in Ops Quals).

I also had a Form 5 in the Pilatus PC-12 at one point.  Would I ever fly it on a CAP mission?  No.  But it kept my Form 5 current in the 172 and 182.

[flyguy06]

I had Form 5's in a King Air 90, Baron and Duchess at one point.  I know people who have had Form 5's in King Air 200s and Citation X's (C750 is an option in Ops Quals).

I also had a Form 5 in the Pilatus PC-12 at one point.  Would I ever fly it on a CAP mission?  No.  But it kept my Form 5 current in the 172 and 182.

WOW

[flynd94]

I have known Keith for a long while and I am not too sure that he was kidding.

Just think, he saved us from at least 100 posts on uniforms by even bringing this subject up.

Paul,

You and Phil are correct.  I already dropped a line to the check airmen I have at the end of the month and, he is game.  Just think of the SAR/CD possibilities of the 1900.  I can haul 18 scanners around in grid 

[bosshawk]

Keith: go for it.  Maybe you can do some cadet O-rides, since all other flying is just about out the window.  Until the Congress passes the Defense Appropriations bill, all SAREX and CD flying is on hold.  As you know, in CAWG that makes for a very quiet time right now.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Huh, did someone mention Uniforms?!?

[DG]

I have known Keith for a long while and I am not too sure that he was kidding.

Paul,

You and Phil are correct.  I already dropped a line to the check airmen I have at the end of the month and, he is game.  Just think of the SAR/CD possibilities of the 1900.  I can haul 18 scanners around in grid 

Could be exciting!  Can I ride along?

Steep turns.

Stalls.

Simulated engine out to landing.

Go around.

Soft field take off and landing.

Recovery from unusual attitudes.

S - turns across a road at 1000 feet AGL.

Should be great fun!

[BlueLakes1]

Huh, did someone mention Uniforms?!?

What about them?

[bosshawk]

Major Creed: I made a sarcastic comment in one of my earlier posts that the guy talking about the Beech 1900 Form 5 had created enough of a stir to overcome some of the endless diatribes about uniforms.  I think that the guy whom you noticed was picking up on the sarcasm.

[BlueLakes1]

Major Creed: I made a sarcastic comment in one of my earlier posts that the guy talking about the Beech 1900 Form 5 had created enough of a stir to overcome some of the endless diatribes about uniforms.  I think that the guy whom you noticed was picking up on the sarcasm.

Ahh....that's what I get for posting right after I wake up. :-)

[flynd94]

My form 5 in a B1900D was done Monday during my recurrent sim.  All I need to do is meet with a Chief Check Airman and, its all legit.  Now, I must figure out how to get CAP to pay for a B1900D for the fleet

[FW]

Keith, if you can figure that out, you can figure out the uniform problems with CAP easily...

[DG]

My form 5 in a B1900D was done Monday during my recurrent sim.  All I need to do is meet with a Chief Check Airman and, its all legit.  Now, I must figure out how to get CAP to pay for a B1900D for the fleet

First time I ever heard of a Form 5 on a simulator.

Was it necessary to modify the Form 5?

For example, the following items on the Form 5 form itself.

Steep turns.

Simulated engine out to landing.

Go around.

Soft field take off and landing.

Forward slips to landing.

Recovery from unusual attitudes.

Partial panel recovery from unusual attitudes.

S - turns across a road.

Power on stalls.

Power off stalls.

Engine Failure During T.O. Below VMC.

Instrument Approach wt One Engine Out.

Engine Failure After Liftoff.

Maneuvering wt One Engine Inoperative.

Approach & Landing with One Engine.

VMC Demonstration.

Instrument Maneuvers wt One Engine Out.

Instrument Approach wt One Engine Out.

[flynd94]

Well, lets see here, a Level D simulator is good enough for the Feds, why wouldn't it be good enough for CAP?  I have yet to take a checkride flying FAR Part 121 in an aircraft.  Also, if you read 60-1, it doesn't forbid using a simulator.  The check airman I talked with (plus,I am one), didn't see anything wrong with using the Level D Simulator.

[bosshawk]

Keith: be sure and send a copy of the signed Form 5 to the National Stan and Eval Officer.  That ought to stir up Hqs quite a bit.  It might also stir up enough interest in this forum to put a dent in the uniform posts.

[PHall]

Keith: be sure and send a copy of the signed Form 5 to the National Stan and Eval Officer.  That ought to stir up Hqs quite a bit.  It might also stir up enough interest in this forum to put a dent in the uniform posts.

Yeah, like that will ever happen.

[DG]

Well, lets see here, a Level D simulator is good enough for the Feds, why wouldn't it be good enough for CAP?  I have yet to take a checkride flying FAR Part 121 in an aircraft.  Also, if you read 60-1, it doesn't forbid using a simulator.  The check airman I talked with (plus,I am one), didn't see anything wrong with using the Level D Simulator.

I am with you.

Impressive.  Breaking new ground.

Has anyone done this before?

I never knew or heard of it.

Good for you.

[WT]

Hey that sounds like a good idea.  Next, they'll be wanting to "perform" their next CAPF 91 in a simulator!

[flynd94]

Hey that sounds like a good idea.  Next, they'll be wanting to "perform" their next CAPF 91 in a simulator!

Why not, have you ever flown a simulator and, I am not talking about a Frasca.  A Level D Simulator can do everything an aircraft can do, realistic visuals and, anything else you can think of having.  I have been through 2 different airlines/training programs and, the first time you fly the actual aircraft is on an actual revenue flight.  The sophistication of modern simulators is impressive and, gives the check airman an ability to "test" on things that you could never do in an aircraft.

PS- Phil/Paul, I truly have my current company snowed, I have been asked to join the training department as both a simulator instructor and a Line Check Airman, if the only  knew the truth

[bosshawk]

Keith: when you need a Form 91, let me know.

[genejackson]

There is a C-310R that is used for HLS missions off the east coast.  It is privately owned but the members must be Form 5 in it such that they can fly the HLS and submit for reimbursement under CAPR 173-X.   I know because I've I/C'd the missions several times.   Where the airplane is located is not for general knowledge, just know that CAP does use them when the need arises.

Also, we've had several national sized exercises that use even bigger stuff than a C-310.   Get yourself well positioned in the HLS missions for your Wing or Region and you'll then get to find out when and where.   

CAP ROCKS!   I've now flown over 1800 hrs with CAP in the past 12 years doing SAR/DR,  CD and HLS missions so the flight opportunities are out there for everybody who applies themselves.

[Eclipse]

CAP ROCKS!   I've now flown over 1800 hrs with CAP in the past 12 years doing SAR/DR,  CD and HLS missions so the flight opportunities are out there for everybody who applies themselves.

Lord, that's nice to hear around here once in a while!   :clap:

[bosshawk]

Gene: way to go, man.  We have one member-owned twin in CA that is occasionally used for HLS missions.

I can't say that I have flown that many hours for CAP, but my total hours since I have been in CAP has gone from about 900 to 3,000 during those years.  Of course, owning my own plane has helped.   

[C-150]

OK....I know I am flying into heavy flak here because I have suggested the use of LSA on a different thread. But my thought was to use them for light missions. As far as ME goes...the check ride a side as it has been noted...it is ok if you can find a CAP check pilot with full quals. CAP has had some ME aircraft in the past...I think an Aero Commader from the 60's is in the AF Museum that CAP flew for a while and I remember seeing an old U-2 Blue Canoe Cessna 310 in CAP markings. I think one of the West Coast Wings flew it. Not sure on that. But a ME would be great except for $$$$ factor. The added safety on night flights or over rough terrain or water would help keep the pucker down a little. The Diamond DA-42 might would be good. Not too familiar with specs on it as far as what it can carry etc.

[flynd94]

OK....I know I am flying into heavy flak here because I have suggested the use of LSA on a different thread. But my thought was to use them for light missions. As far as ME goes...the check ride a side as it has been noted...it is ok if you can find a CAP check pilot with full quals. CAP has had some ME aircraft in the past...I think an Aero Commader from the 60's is in the AF Museum that CAP flew for a while and I remember seeing an old U-2 Blue Canoe Cessna 310 in CAP markings. I think one of the West Coast Wings flew it. Not sure on that. But a ME would be great except for $$$$ factor. The added safety on night flights or over rough terrain or water would help keep the pucker down a little. The Diamond DA-42 might would be good. Not too familiar with specs on it as far as what it can carry etc.

The Diamond Twinstars suck as a plane.  Completely underpowered, electrical system (gens/alts) go TU, you go to back up battery power, you run your battery dead, your engines stop working.  The FADEC has no way of getting juice.

[flyguy06]

There is a C-310R that is used for HLS missions off the east coast.  It is privately owned but the members must be Form 5 in it such that they can fly the HLS and submit for reimbursement under CAPR 173-X.   I know because I've I/C'd the missions several times.   Where the airplane is located is not for general knowledge, just know that CAP does use them when the need arises.

Also, we've had several national sized exercises that use even bigger stuff than a C-310.   Get yourself well positioned in the HLS missions for your Wing or Region and you'll then get to find out when and where.   

CAP ROCKS!   I've now flown over 1800 hrs with CAP in the past 12 years doing SAR/DR,  CD and HLS missions so the flight opportunities are out there for everybody who applies themselves.

Good post. I needed to hear that. I want to get more involved with flying in CAP, but how do I get myself well positioned?

[bosshawk]

One way to put yourself in that position(or a similar one) is to make yourself available for every mission that comes along.  You won't get them all, but you will become known as someone who is anxious to fly for CAP and is available.  This is all assuming that there is a CAP airplane somewhere near you. From my perspective, it also means that you are qualified and current: having an instrument rating also helps.