definition of cross country

JGremlin · April 09, 2009, 01:05:25 PM

I used the forum search function but I couldn't find anything related to this question so forgive me if this has been asked before.

Can anyone tell me the definition of cross country time as it applies to the TMP requirement for 50 hours of cross country time. As most of you are probably aware, the FAR's contain about 4 different definitions of what constitutes cross country time depending on what you're looking to apply the time toward.

I'm assuming CAP is using the standard private pilot definition of any flight with a landing more than 50nm from the point of departure, but I can't find a reference anywhere which confirms that.

We've got a pilot in my squadron who doesn't yet have 50 hours of cross country time according to the private pilot definition. But he might be much closer to 50 hours if we were using the ATP cert definition of cross country which only requires that you travel more than 50nm from the point of departure but doesn't require you to land 50nm away. And he definitely has 50 hours of cross country time if we can use the definition spelled out on FAR 61.1(b)(3) which is essentially any flight that lands at a point other than the point of departure.

Can anyone point me to a reference of exactly how cross country time is to be defined for the purposes of meeting the minimums for TMP?

flyguy06 · April 09, 2009, 01:23:21 PM

Cross Country time is 50 miles from one airport andlanding at another airport ONLY when the pilot is training for a certificate. OTHER than that,it is point to point. Butyes there must be a landing invlolved at an airport other than he one you took off from.

JGremlin · April 09, 2009, 01:28:48 PM

Thanks for the reply. So you're saying that any flight which involves a landing at a point other than the point of departure counts as cross country time toward the 50 hours required for TMP. Is there a referrence for that somewhere or is this just the accepted method?

caprr275 · April 09, 2009, 03:27:22 PM

To log xc time for a certificate or rating (FAA) it has be at least 50NM straight line from the departure airport to an airport of landing.

For ATP it can be straight line from an airport to a point (not requiring a landing)

To log just regular XC time it is a flight from one airport to another airport even if its only 10 miles away

sparks · April 09, 2009, 03:30:57 PM

Since CAPR 60-1 notes that pilots must perform to the FAA PTS standard for the certificate being exercise it would seem that the cross country standard of 50 NM cited above would apply too. Too bad it isn't clearly stated as such.

SilverEagle2 · April 09, 2009, 03:42:35 PM

Hmm...In my logbook I only log XC time for trips that I land at least 50nm away. Since I am working on my Inst Rating, I guess that means I am logging it right.

However, it appears that I am missing out on XC time outside of that for all the other of home base landings.

Seems like our logbooks should have a spot for 50nm XC time and XC time so as to have it all accounted for.

I suppose I can infer that any time spent with a landing outside of home base is XC time and would not be to hard to tabulate in addition to my 50nm XC time.

Gotta love the FAA.

I agree however, that the XC time for TMP should be the same time used for getting a rating/cert and not just point to point.

CASH172 · April 09, 2009, 06:08:30 PM

My logbook has two seperate columns for XC. One is for All and one is for over 50 nm. I chose not to log All as I've never seen or heard a good reason to log it. I'd also not like to confuse an examiner or interviewer when he/she would be going over my logbook. Although the regulations seem to allow it, I would also say that one should not count all XC time for the TMP qualifications. Going to an airport 5 miles from another airport hardly constitutes the wanted skills for navigating across long distances.

SilverEagle2 · April 09, 2009, 08:03:00 PM

QuoteMy logbook has two seperate columns for XC.

Who makes your log book? When I fill this one, I may want to pick one of those up.

CASH172 · April 09, 2009, 08:33:44 PM

Gleim. I've looked at a lot of other logbooks and I have to say, I think Gleim is one of the best for being a standard sized logbook.

caprr275 · April 09, 2009, 10:40:35 PM

I use the Jep professional log book. it has blank columns that work great for adding total XC time in

JGremlin · April 10, 2009, 12:51:13 AM

Quote from: sparks on April 09, 2009, 03:30:57 PM
Since CAPR 60-1 notes that pilots must perform to the FAA PTS standard for the certificate being exercise it would seem that the cross country standard of 50 NM cited above would apply too. Too bad it isn't clearly stated as such.

Ok but landing at an airport more than 50nm from the point of departure isn't in any PTS that I'm aware of so I don't really see where one has anything to do with the other as far as cross country definitions go.

But more importantly your response suggests that nowhere in the CAP regs is this topic clearly defined. So where does that leave us? Is it left up to the check pilots to decide whether or not they're going to accept a particular pilots choice for which type of cross country time he or she chooses to log? Is it decided at the wing level? Something else?

flyguy06 · April 13, 2009, 03:01:42 AM

Quote from: SilverEagle2 on April 09, 2009, 03:42:35 PM
Hmm...In my logbook I only log XC time for trips that I land at least 50nm away. Since I am working on my Inst Rating, I guess that means I am logging it right.

However, it appears that I am missing out on XC time outside of that for all the other of home base landings.

Seems like our logbooks should have a spot for 50nm XC time and XC time so as to have it all accounted for.

I suppose I can infer that any time spent with a landing outside of home base is XC time and would not be to hard to tabulate in addition to my 50nm XC time.

Gotta love the FAA.

I agree however, that the XC time for TMP should be the same time used for getting a rating/cert and not just point to point.

Well, the thing is since youare currently working on a rating, the cross country you can log has to be 50nm or more. You canr just pick and choose and say "I'll use this x-c for training and this x-c for regular" In other words, if you are not working on a rating or certificate you can log any trip from one airport to another. But since you ARE workingon a rating you canonly log 50nm or more

flyguy06 · April 13, 2009, 03:04:26 AM

Quote from: CASH172 on April 09, 2009, 06:08:30 PM
My logbook has two seperate columns for XC. One is for All and one is for over 50 nm. I chose not to log All as I've never seen or heard a good reason to log it. I'd also not like to confuse an examiner or interviewer when he/she would be going over my logbook. Although the regulations seem to allow it, I would also say that one should not count all XC time for the TMP qualifications. Going to an airport 5 miles from another airport hardly constitutes the wanted skills for navigating across long distances.

The reason a person may want to log all trips is if you are planningon flying part 135 charter. you need to meet part 135 minimums which include 300 hours of cross country. SO in order to build that time it is best to log every trip. It counts towards the cross country time for pt 135 ops

SJFedor · April 13, 2009, 03:11:13 AM

60-1 does (or at least did) require the 50 hours of XC time to be Pilot-In-Command time for TMP and MP

CadetProgramGuy · April 13, 2009, 04:45:26 AM

From the SQTR -

MP - 175hrs PIC and 50 XC as well as conforming to CAPM 60-1

JGremlin · April 13, 2009, 05:35:51 AM

Quote from: flyguy06 on April 13, 2009, 03:04:26 AM
The reason a person may want to log all trips is if you are planningon flying part 135 charter. you need to meet part 135 minimums which include 300 hours of cross country. SO in order to build that time it is best to log every trip. It counts towards the cross country time for pt 135 ops

Actually, I believe the pt 135 mins require 500 xc. But you are correct in that any flight which includes a landing away from the departure airport counts toward the XC requirement for the part 135 IFR minimums.

JGremlin · April 13, 2009, 05:44:22 AM

Quote from: SJFedor on April 13, 2009, 03:11:13 AM
60-1 does (or at least did) require the 50 hours of XC time to be Pilot-In-Command time for TMP and MP

With all due respect, this doesn't answer my question at all. I am aware of the fact that CAP requires 50 hours XC time. My question is what counts as XC time?

If you're going for a pvt, com or IR the FAA regs require a landing greater than 50nm from the point of departure in order to count XC time. If you're going for an ATP, the FAA requires a flight that goes 50nm from the point of depature, but does not require a landing greater than 50nm away. If you're going for part 135 IFR PIC minimums, the FAA requires a landing at a point other than the point of departure with no minimum distance specified. So my question is which of these definitions does CAP require in order to meet the 50 hours of XC requirement.

CadetProgramGuy · April 13, 2009, 06:21:19 AM

Quote from: JGremlin on April 13, 2009, 05:44:22 AM
Quote from: SJFedor on April 13, 2009, 03:11:13 AM
60-1 does (or at least did) require the 50 hours of XC time to be Pilot-In-Command time for TMP and MP
With all due respect, this doesn't answer my question at all. I am aware of the fact that CAP requires 50 hours XC time. My question is what counts as XC time?

If you're going for a pvt, com or IR the FAA regs require a landing greater than 50nm from the point of departure in order to count XC time. If you're going for an ATP, the FAA requires a flight that goes 50nm from the point of depature, but does not require a landing greater than 50nm away. If you're going for part 135 IFR PIC minimums, the FAA requires a landing at a point other than the point of departure with no minimum distance specified. So my question is which of these definitions does CAP require in order to meet the 50 hours of XC requirement.

until we can get to a firmer solutiuon, I would use the toughest standard of a XC. 50 miles or more, with a landing.

wacapgh · April 13, 2009, 09:20:09 PM

Slightly on topic "Aviation Fun Fact":

The Voyager around-the-world-unrefuled flight originally had to be logged as "LOCAL" as it took off and landed at the same airport. The FAA granted an exemption for this flight

JGremlin · April 14, 2009, 03:17:39 AM

Quote from: wacapgh on April 13, 2009, 09:20:09 PM
Slightly on topic "Aviation Fun Fact":

The Voyager around-the-world-unrefuled flight originally had to be logged as "LOCAL" as it took off and landed at the same airport. The FAA granted an exemption for this flight

Its a fun fact. Unfortunately, it isn't true. That flight would absolutely be loggable as a cross country. And that cross country time could legally be counted toward the minimum cross country requirement for anyone who is seeking an ATP certificate, no excemption from the FAA required.