Another Ribbon Question

[JCW0312]

I tried searching for a post that covered this, but was unsuccessful.

If a new senior member was a cadet years ago and didn't make a milestone award, but did make C/A1C (Arnold), can that SM wear the Arnold ribbon without some sort of documentation?

The break in membership has been almost a decade and all inactive cadet records from back then have been destroyed. No milestone award was reached, so there's no record (other than a few seniors that remember the previous cadet making it to C/A1C).

[MIKE]

If there is no documentation...

[Stonewall]

Honestly, being that it's not a major deal and no one would lose sleep over it, if dude could show me a pic of him in his cadet uniform with said rank, I'd make a photo copy of it and put it in his file with a 2a or something. 

We had a guy do that.  Same achievement, Arnold.  Always thought it was cool.  Last I knew he was a major.

[mikeylikey]

^ Agreed!  Or get a simple letter from the other guys saying "yeah this officer got that as a Cadet"

Easy as pie (strawberry)

[ZigZag911]

Technically it needs documentation...practically speaking, the odds of someone challenging his right to wear an Arnold are virtually non-existent!

If he wants to do it, I'd say let him go for it....do warn him, though, that former cadets/current seniors tend to snicker discreetly at anyone wearing anything less than a Mitchell or higher milestone award.

[arajca]

Technically it needs documentation...practically speaking, the odds of someone challenging his right to wear an Arnold are virtually non-existent!

If he wants to do it, I'd say let him go for it....do warn him, though, that former cadets/current seniors tend to snicker discreetly at anyone wearing anything less than a Mitchell or higher milestone award.

Or not so discreetly...

[lordmonar]

If you were going to lie about earning an Achievement Ribbon....why stop at the Arnold?

If a SM told me he earned something way back when....I don't double check.

[mikeylikey]

Speaking of checking.....I once had a guy wear an embroidered Military Wings on his CAP uniform.  I asked him for documentation and his 214 to put in his file and he said that the 214 could not be handed over as I was not "privy" to that type of information and he did not have too.  (I did not mention I know how the military works, because I just wanted to get away from the guy)  Well.....he went to court and served 1 month in prison.  (I did not turn him in, he dressed up like an AF Major and would regularly go on Base to shop and whatnot).  He got out, did it again recently and was just charged under that "stolen honor" law (or whatever it is called). 

Not that what I typed has anything to do with Cadet Ribbons for Senior Members.  Sorry.

[AC]

Bravo mikey! There are people like that poser, and they deserve what they get!

AC

[mikeylikey]

^ Thanks......there are more and more people being charged under that new law everyday.  There are websites out there too that track these people, and you can give "tips" on people that need investigated. 

I think the going rate is 6 months in prison and sometype of monetary punishment. 

There was a guy in 1999 that impersonated an AF Major (Jeff Klotz) who was arrested at the PA Wing Encampment by the FBI.  He served 6 months then, and about 2 years ago got busted at Andrews AFB for impersonating a Lt Col.  I think he is still in Federal Prison. 

[Dad2-4]

I wear my Curry because that's what I acheived in CAP way back in 8th grade and I've never had anyone snicker.
I know a guy that was in my squadron for a while that claimed all kinds of prior military stuff. Disappeared when our Wing IG started investigating disprepancies.

[Pylon]

"Documentation" to support the Arnold could be a typed statement from somebody you were a cadet with, saying that they recall you earning the Arnold/being an C/A1C. 

If it's acceptable to the commander, "documentation" might also just be a sworn/notarized statement from you stating that in 19XX you earned the Arnold Achievement as a CAP cadet.

Place that with a CAPF 2A in the file and never look back. 

[MIKE]

My take:  Bearing in mind that this is taken from CAPR 39-2 dealing with cadets rejoining.

4-2. a. 1) Cadets rejoining after a break in service will be credited with previous accomplishments as evidenced in their personnel files.

Therefore if the personnel file no longer exists, you can not credit an individual with previous accomplishments because there is no CAPF 66 or equivalent to serve as evidence of such.

[Flying Pig]

If it were me, Id have the member type up something saying he earned the ribbon.  Legal...no but....

Now if the guy came in wearing a stack with some serious ribbons, Id need documentation.  Yeah, I know, whats considered serious?  But given this scenario, I wouldnt have an issue with the guy wearing an Arnold ribbon.

[ddelaney103]

Concur.  Just have him write out the details (what sqdn, when, etc) and sign it for his file.

Worrying about "stolen valor" in the case of an Arnold ribbon is a waste of time.

[Stonewall]

Worrying about "stolen valor" in the case of an Arnold ribbon is a waste of time.

Hey, it took me 2 years to earn my Arnold ribbon...I'll be [darn]ed if someone is just gonna show up claiming he earned such an award without proof....It takes determination, hard work, intestinal fortitude and the drive to achieve such an award...

KIRT!!!  Wake up, you're having a horrible nightmare...

[Duke Dillio]

Best two years of you life Kirt?   

[JCW0312]

My take:  Bearing in mind that this is taken from CAPR 39-2 dealing with cadets rejoining.

4-2. a. 1) Cadets rejoining after a break in service will be credited with previous accomplishments as evidenced in their personnel files.

Therefore if the personnel file no longer exists, you can not credit an individual with previous accomplishments because there is no CAPF 66 or equivalent to serve as evidence of such.

True. But there have been many cases where national has given former cadets credit for accomplishments based on clippings from newsletters documenting accomplishments, etc.

Also, it says "as evidenced in their personnel files". What counts as evidence? Would a statement placed in their personnel file from a Capt and a couple of Lt's?

[MIKE]

I'd argue that it implies CAPF 66 or equivalent with signatures and CAPF 52 - or equivalent with signatures.  Particularly since the CAPF 52- serves as the primary promotion document.

[arajca]

For my Earhart, my commander accepted a copy of the CAPNews cadet awards list from National.

[Stonewall]

On my Mitchell, they spelled my name wrong.  I needed it for promotion to E-2 in the Army with no time to send up to NHQ to correct it.  I used a pencil eraser and a typewriter and fixed it myself.  Although the font was off by about 2 sizes....  Still in the same condition today, 16+ years later.

[BlueLakes1]

Technically it needs documentation...practically speaking, the odds of someone challenging his right to wear an Arnold are virtually non-existent!

If he wants to do it, I'd say let him go for it....do warn him, though, that former cadets/current seniors tend to snicker discreetly at anyone wearing anything less than a Mitchell or higher milestone award.

Or not so discreetly...

Funny, I wear my Wright Brothers, earned far enough back so as to be an award achievement rather than an achievement award. There are a number of higher ranking WIWACs that I serve with, including a couple of Spaatzen, and I've never gotten a snicker one.

YMMV.

(Thanks for the correction...I'm getting too old for 24 hour shifts!)

[MIKE]

I think you have that backwards.  When I got my Wright Brothers Achievement it conferred the grade of C/Sgt with one S.

[jimmydeanno]

Funny, I wear my Wright Brothers, earned far enough back so as to be an award rather than an achievement.

scratch that, reverse it.  The WB is an Award currently, it used to be an achievement...

[JohnKachenmeister]

You guys are right, the Arnold and similar ribbons are no big deal.  ANY documentation would work for me.

But, I want to caution everybody... The "Stolen honor" thing is real, and VERY pervasive.  There are a LOT of guys who come into CAP and try to pose as war heroes because they think our officers are a bunch of dufus jerks who won't check or who will fall for the "My DD-214 is classified because I was on secret missions as a green beret Navy SEAL Ranger sniper."

I did not know how common the practice was until I read a book entitled "Fake Warriors" that talked about how people will alter and forge DD-214's to either create awards and qualifications they never earned or to cover up a Re-Enlistment Code of "No Freaking Way."

After reading the book, I caught a liar trying to claim he was a Marine sniper in the Urgent Fury invasion of Panama who said he got a Silver Star, but could not show me the citation because it was "Classified."  His DD-214 was "Lost."

And I also noticed that a certain candidate for President in the last election posted his DD-214 on his web site that showed he got the "Silver Star with Combat V" which I thought was quite interesting from a fake warrior perspective.

Be careful, and ALWAYS check the DD-214.  There is no such thing as a "Classified" DD-214, and when a so-called war hero can't produce it, he is probably a liar.

[jimmydeanno]

There is no such thing as a "Classified" DD-214

You probably just don't have the clearance to view it - 

[Cecil DP]

There is no such thing as a "Classified" DD-214

You probably just don't have the clearance to view it - 

No such thing as needing a clearance to view a DD 214. It's  publically available document, through the Military Records. depository in St Louis. They issue it to "prove" you were in the military and to document your service.  BTW  if someone tells you their records were destroyed in the fire, the fire was limited to the Air Force section and mainly Korean War era documents.

[Flying Pig]

Ahhh, yes.  I too was a CAP C/Sgt.

[SJFedor]

You guys are right, the Arnold and similar ribbons are no big deal.  ANY documentation would work for me.

But, I want to caution everybody... The "Stolen honor" thing is real, and VERY pervasive.  There are a LOT of guys who come into CAP and try to pose as war heroes because they think our officers are a bunch of dufus jerks who won't check or who will fall for the "My DD-214 is classified because I was on secret missions as a green beret Navy SEAL Ranger sniper."

I did not know how common the practice was until I read a book entitled "Fake Warriors" that talked about how people will alter and forge DD-214's to either create awards and qualifications they never earned or to cover up a Re-Enlistment Code of "No Freaking Way."

After reading the book, I caught a liar trying to claim he was a Marine sniper in the Urgent Fury invasion of Panama who said he got a Silver Star, but could not show me the citation because it was "Classified."  His DD-214 was "Lost."

And I also noticed that a certain candidate for President in the last election posted his DD-214 on his web site that showed he got the "Silver Star with Combat V" which I thought was quite interesting from a fake warrior perspective.

Be careful, and ALWAYS check the DD-214.  There is no such thing as a "Classified" DD-214, and when a so-called war hero can't produce it, he is probably a liar.

People don't get awards for highly classified operations. They get a pat on the back and a "good job, you can't tell anyone about it". 

That's sad that there's people like that out there, that would so falsely misrepresent themselves.

[BlueLakes1]

I think you have that backwards.  When I got my Wright Brothers Achievement it conferred the grade of C/Sgt with one S.

You're right, long day at the office (and I'm still here). Yes, when I got the award, it made me a C/Sgt as well.

[JCW0312]

That's sad that there's people like that out there, that would so falsely misrepresent themselves.

And there's a lot of them. However, I just can't see one of those folks lying about the Arnold award. I would imagine those folks would shoot for the Spaatz thru Armstrong area. No sense in risking getting 2b'd for Curry, Arnold, etc...

[jimmydeanno]

No such thing as needing a clearance to view a DD 214. It's  publically available document, through the Military Records. depository in St Louis. They issue it to "prove" you were in the military and to document your service.  BTW  if someone tells you their records were destroyed in the fire, the fire was limited to the Air Force section and mainly Korean War era documents.

sorry...should have put [joke] tags around it...

[O-Rex]

You guys are right, the Arnold and similar ribbons are no big deal.  ANY documentation would work for me.

But, I want to caution everybody... The "Stolen honor" thing is real, and VERY pervasive.  There are a LOT of guys who come into CAP and try to pose as war heroes because they think our officers are a bunch of dufus jerks who won't check or who will fall for the "My DD-214 is classified because I was on secret missions as a green beret Navy SEAL Ranger sniper."

I did not know how common the practice was until I read a book entitled "Fake Warriors" that talked about how people will alter and forge DD-214's to either create awards and qualifications they never earned or to cover up a Re-Enlistment Code of "No Freaking Way."

After reading the book, I caught a liar trying to claim he was a Marine sniper in the Urgent Fury invasion of Panama who said he got a Silver Star, but could not show me the citation because it was "Classified."  His DD-214 was "Lost."

And I also noticed that a certain candidate for President in the last election posted his DD-214 on his web site that showed he got the "Silver Star with Combat V" which I thought was quite interesting from a fake warrior perspective.

Be careful, and ALWAYS check the DD-214.  There is no such thing as a "Classified" DD-214, and when a so-called war hero can't produce it, he is probably a liar.

I knew a guy who claimed to be an SF Capt in VN: you know, even after an SOF operator gets out, there's still a kind of 'edge' to them:he didn't have it.  Also, he had jumpwings w/two combat jump stars (??)

The only UNCLAS jump in VN was the 173rd.  Yeah, I'm sure SF did them, but they wouldn't get awarded for it.

I tried to get a look at his DD214, but it never materialized, nor was he ever in town when we conducted CAP records audits. His name was not in the "Rolls of the Army" during the years in question, '67-69.

Sickening....

[Duke Dillio]

Having been one of those idiots, I don't think that I can really explain what it is about it.  I guess it is just to make yourself look or feel better.  In my case, it didn't work out so good.  It could have been much worse but then again we all make mistakes at some point in our lives.  To say I felt like a moron would be the understatement of the century.  If you find one of these guys who is actually wearing the awards, make sure you give him a good CONEX counseling session.

[AC]

People don't get awards for highly classified operations. They get a pat on the back and a "good job, you can't tell anyone about it". 

This is so true!

AC

[Stonewall]

People don't get awards for highly classified operations. They get a pat on the back and a "good job, you can't tell anyone about it". 

This is so true!

AC

Only people that conduct classified operations know what they get as far as awards, pats on the back, or ceremonies....

[mikeylikey]

I knew a guy who claimed to be an SF Capt in VN: you know, even after an SOF operator gets out, there's still a kind of 'edge' to them:he didn't have it.  Also, he had jumpwings w/two combat jump stars (??)

Sickening.  He should have claimed Major.....Captain is such an "everday" rank.  

And yes.....214 and ORB's are accesible to the general public.  You can actaully request a copy of people or organizations that have requested to see your files.  National Archives has a whole website section devoted to accessing them.  

[AC]

Believe me...Getting records from the military is a lot easier than getting them from the CAP! I have been told there is no record of me even being in the CAP! I still have my uniforms w/ribbons from my past membership, and the memories in my head. CAP squadrons destroy records after 5 years. National HQ is all computerized. Any records before 1983 do not exist! I have rejoined, and have to start all over again!

AC

[Duke Dillio]

Anyone know how you might go about getting copies of award certificates, like Mitchell, Earhart, and Eaker?

[jimmydeanno]

If you are looking for replacement copies, just call member services at NHQ.  Tell them your name and the aproximate date you earned the award.  They will send you one in the mail if they can find it.

[JCW0312]

If you are looking for replacement copies, just call member services at NHQ.  Tell them your name and the aproximate date you earned the award.  They will send you one in the mail if they can find it.

Does this apply to awards or achievements? Or both?

[jimmydeanno]

National currently only tracks cadet milestone awards (for cadets).  So if you earned either the Mitchell, Earhart, Eaker or Spaatz between now and whenever they first published CAP News, you can get a replacement.

If you are looking to replace your Certificate of Proficiency (senior), Loening, Garber, Wilson, same deal applies.

If you are looking to get replacements of SLS certificates, I don't think you'll have that much luck unless they happen to have the CAPF 11 still on file or its already shown in CAPWATCH.

Never hurts to call though, after all, that is what they are there for (plus some other stuff  )

[baronet68]

Be careful, and ALWAYS check the DD-214.  There is no such thing as a "Classified" DD-214, and when a so-called war hero can't produce it, he is probably a liar.

People don't get awards for highly classified operations. They get a pat on the back and a "good job, you can't tell anyone about it". 

I know one Special Forces guy, Vietnam era, who received a Silver Star for a 'classified/black-ops' mission.  Normally, the citation on any military award for valor usually says something like:

"On 32 Septober 1902, Jones was very brave, did cool stuff, killed lots of bad guys, saved countless lives, suffered great injury unto himself, and is a credit to the United States..."




This guy's Silver Star citation (which I've seen and the award is listed on his DD214) reads:

For Action - 6 Jun 69

[Cecil DP]

Be careful, and ALWAYS check the DD-214.  There is no such thing as a "Classified" DD-214, and when a so-called war hero can't produce it, he is probably a liar.

People don't get awards for highly classified operations. They get a pat on the back and a "good job, you can't tell anyone about it". 

I know one Special Forces guy, Vietnam era, who received a Silver Star for a 'classified/black-ops' mission.  Normally, the citation on any military award for valor usually says something like:

"On 32 Septober 1902, Jones was very brave, did cool stuff, killed lots of bad guys, saved countless lives, suffered great injury unto himself, and is a credit to the United States..."




This guy's Silver Star citation (which I've seen and the award is listed on his DD214) reads:

For Action - 6 Jun 69

I've even seen an award posted in the Navy Times which said; "Capt So and So awarded DSM. Citaition classified. "
The point is that while a person can receive an award for a classified operation. It will still show up on the DD 214 or 215. Neither of which is a classified document

[JCW0312]

^You'll have to excuse my ignorance - I was never Real Military^TM - What's a DD-215? I know what a DD-214 is, but I've never heard of a DD-215.

[AC]

DD Form 215,  Correction to Form DD 214.

AC

[Stonewall]

I've got a DD 215 cuz my DD 214 from when I was activated for Bosnia basically said I never left Hungary.  So I had to request a 215 to fix it. 

Now, I've got 2 DD 214s, a 215, 2 NGB 22s (Nat'l Guard's version of a 214) and an AF Reserve "letter of service".  Guess the AF RES don't have 214 or version of.  When I applied for federal service, they were like "couldn't make up your mind or what".

[RiverAux]

if someone tells you their records were destroyed in the fire, the fire was limited to the Air Force section and mainly Korean War era documents.

Very untrue. See http://www.archives.gov/st-louis/military-personnel/fire-1973.html
An estimated 80% of Army soldiers discharged from 1912-1960 had their records lost and an estimated 75% of Air Force personnel discharged from 1947-1964 had their records lost in the 1973 fire at the St. Louis records center.
My grandfather (an WWII Army Captain) was one of them. 

[Tim Medeiros]

if someone tells you their records were destroyed in the fire, the fire was limited to the Air Force section and mainly Korean War era documents.

Very untrue. See http://www.archives.gov/st-louis/military-personnel/fire-1973.html
An estimated 80% of Army soldiers discharged from 1912-1960 had their records lost and an estimated 75% of Air Force personnel discharged from 1947-1964 had their records lost in the 1973 fire at the St. Louis records center.
My grandfather (an WWII Army Captain) was one of them. 

My dads were lost, he was AF around vietnam

[JCW0312]

DD Form 215,  Correction to Form DD 214.

AC

Oh, ok. Thanks.

[AC]

Getting back to CAP ribbons....in 1957-1958 I was a cadet. I was a cadet Capt., and cadet squadron commander. I had red, white, and blue ribbons and a certificate of proficiency. I think that means I completed phase 6 of the program then. I am trying to assertain what equivalent award/achievement I would be entitled to in today's cadet program. From what I am reading in this thread I can wear the highest award I earned. I do have documentation, in the form of a newspaper article, that shows me as cadet captain and cadet squadron commander. Goes back to the original reason for this thread!

AC

[AlphaSigOU]

Getting back to CAP ribbons....in 1957-1958 I was a cadet. I was a cadet Capt., and cadet squadron commander. I had red, white, and blue ribbons and a certificate of proficiency. I think that means I completed phase 6 of the program then. I am trying to assertain what equivalent award/achievement I would be entitled to in today's cadet program. From what I am reading in this thread I can wear the highest award I earned. I do have documentation, in the form of a newspaper article, that shows me as cadet captain and cadet squadron commander. Goes back to the original reason for this thread!

I don't know if there's been a policy established from NHQ CAP, but you can still wear the original Cadet COP ribbon with bronze clasps. The COP ribbon with two bronze clasps is the equivalent of the Eaker/Spaatz; with one clasp equivalent to the Earhart, and plain equivalent to the Mitchell. I'm not sure if the Cadet COP ribbon is in stock at Vanguard.

[BillB]

The cadet COP ribbon is available from The Hock last time I ordered one. And there was a period where a third clasp could be added with the completion of level 9. The Cadet COP ribbon is authorized and was supposed to have been included in the latest 39-1 (I haven't looked to see if it's there) according to MS Parker.

[AC]

Thanks guys. I was told over on another forum, CAP Today, that the Earhart Award is equivalent to cadet captain. I can prove that I was a cadet captain and squadron commander, but I can't prove I had the COP, just remember that I had it. So I guess I can ask to wear the Earhart.

AC

[jimmydeanno]

I wouldn't wear the Earhart if it wasn't even an award when you were a C/Capt.  That's almost like a cadet who didn't earn the Feik or Armstrong putting it on because they earned the Mitchell but were unable to earn them.  They may be equivalent, but they represent different criteria.

[MIKE]

Eakers could be retroactively awarded though IIRC, not sure if the offer still stands.

[Cecil DP]

You should wear the CofP ribbon. 

[AC]

You should wear the CofP ribbon. 

Well...when I get together with my commander, he has the word on it anyway, I'll just go with his recommendation!

AC