Looking Like A Team

[ColonelJack]

I thought I'd go ahead and start the thread that Pylon mentioned in the Uniform Board posting.

It would seem to me to be a no-brainer as far as uniforms to wear to certain functions.  Each officer and cadet has a different economic story to tell, but if you're going to participate fully in CAP, your kit should include as a minimum:

1.  a service uniform (AF or corporate, properly set and with correct accoutrements), and
2.  a utility uniform (BDU or BBDU, with proper insignia)

Those involved in flying would have a flight suit; those who wish could add mess dress or golf shirt or whatever else you want (and can afford).  I am thinking mainly of the basic kit here.

From here, it's up to the IC to determine which uniform is appropriate.  Then the IC communicates that to the people he/she asks to show up for the event.

If you don't have what the IC wants in your kit, you should ask if what you do have would be acceptable, and if it isn't...well, use your own judgment here.  The idea is to not stick out like the proverbial sore thumb.

Thoughts?

Jack

[JohnKachenmeister]

Jack:

My thoughts on the basic kit are similar to yours, but...

I always recommend to new members that they buy the golf shirt as their initial uniform.  I do this because their rank (in most cases) is not effective for 6 months.  This means that they have to buy SM epaulets or sew "CAP" on both collars, then change it 6 months later.

This situation is worse for former officers, since they can put in to have their military rank awarded after the finish L-1 and CPPT.  By the time they get the SM stuff from Vanguard, they're promoted already.

Plus the golf shirt works in almost all situations, except very formal stuff.

After initial rank is awarded, every CAP officer should have:

1.  A set of blues or equivalent... shirt, flight cap, tie, pants, oxfords.  The jacket can be added when needed and when it can be afforded.

2.  A BDU or BBDU

If the officer intends to fly as a crewmember, the flight suit can be initially substituted for the BDU, but he should still get a BDU during his first year.

Yes, the IC/OIC of an exercise should designate the appropriate uniform, but with so many equivalent uniforms authorized, I'm not sure how to avoid the "NATO Conference" look to our activities.

Well, actually I DO know how to avoid that look, but the fix is way above my pay grade.

[riffraff]

The logical conclusion to the "one CAP team" discussion is to just go with the corporate uniforms for everyone -- ending the height/weight/grooming and dual-uniform-lines issues once and for all. CAP can have different uniforms and still be part of the Air Force team. The USMC is part of the US Navy and people seem to be okay with that.

I would agree that there should be some attempt to standardize what's worn at various functions. Unfortunately, the best that will be achieved is a mix of two styles (corporate vs USAF) for any particular setting unless the specified uniform is one of the CAP distinctives which leads right back to my opening statement.

It's ironic that the golf shirt (which I can't stand) is the only common denominator in an organization where there are two distinct uniform 'camps'.

[Dragoon]

First, I think it's a mistake that the minimum uniform is service, not utility.

It's been my experience that the vast majority of cadets and senior members can do almost everything a squadron needs to do in BDUs/BBDUs.   I've got seniors who haven't had a need for any kind of service suit in years.  The few times the might need 'em (Wing conferences, squadron awards dinners,etc), they can just wear a coat and tie.   

To keep costs down, I'd specifiy that utilities are required for all.  That would give us a standard we all could meet cheaply.  If uniformity is an issue, do it in utilities - because you'd know it's the suit everyone has.

Then, ICs/Project Officers/Commanders could decide when to allow the wear of anything else.

It's definitely how the active duty world is going - I haven't put on Class A's in several years except for official photos.

[riffraff]

I agree. Very little bang for the buck with service jackets when looking at it as $$'s-per-times-worn. Downside will be for those who ascribe to the theory of "it don't mean a thing if I can't wear my bling".   

[SStradley]

To look like the A Team we will all need Mini-14s.  However, that may violate the the 900 regs ... 

[dhon27]

I love it when a plan comes together....

[billford1]

My Squadron has occasional opportunities to serve on active SAR missions. When we do we often have contact with Law Enforcement and sometimes National Guard Personnel. We really don't help ourselves when we show up with several uniform types. Does anybody know if the weight and grooming standards have always been a factor that drove multiple uniform types like CAP has today? The Cadets look like a team; seniors usually don't.

[RiverAux]

I think it makes a lot of sense for the minimum uniform to be BDU/BBDU for both cadets and seniors.   Every single CAP mission can be done in them (except for those places that require Nomex flight suits).  Most cadets wear BDUs to most of their meetings anyway so it is more important that they have that uniform than the blues. 

That being said, I agree with the recommendation for new seniors to start with the golf shirt for the reasons stated.  I wouldn't make it a requirement though. 

[Dragoon]

If the minimum required uniform was BDUs/BBUs, every member could buy that when they join.  Keep the collar blank until you get your first promotion.   Simple, and no need for golf shirts.

[capchiro]

I hate to admit it, but if we are to be uniform, we will need to go to something everyone can wear and that will probably mean the BBDU.  I guess in the overall picture it would be okay.  I think it would look pretty good if everyone was in BBDU's, cadets and seniors, overweight and/or bearded.  We would at least look like a team instead of a herd.  I guess something similiar would be needed for dress or semidress.  I don't think tight white aviator shirts look good on overweight seniors, but I also don't know where you get reverse tailored or wider at the bottom than the top white shirts, so I don't know what to offer for dress uniform.. 

[Dragoon]

A compromise would be seniors in BBDU, cadets in BDU.   Lots of organizations put their cadets in different uniforms (like all the service academies, fer instance).

Wearing "warrior clothes" is part of the appeal of the cadet program.  Hopefully, our seniors have grown beyond such ego reinforcement.

But  some will play the cost card - claiming they can get real BDUs or ABUs cheaper or for free.

So if we end up in BDUs and BBDUS, at least we're down to 2 uniforms when we want to look alike, as opposed to the plethora 'o choices worn today.

[jimmydeanno]

Hopefully, our seniors have grown beyond such ego reinforcement

[Hawk200]

But  some will play the cost card - claiming they can get real BDUs or ABUs cheaper or for free.

And cheaper or free is a bad thing? I'll stick with cheaper or free. You want to open your wallet and buy me a set, I'll wear it. I spend my money, I want the most bang for the buck. I'm still using BDU's that were issued to me when I joined the Guard. You'd have me throw those away and buy new stuff because you don't like the military uniforms.

Besides, putting cadets in ABU, and seniors in blue isn't uniform at all. When you remove the association between the two, then the uniform concept fails.

[SStradley]

One suggestion to give us a more uniform appearance that has been made by several (me for one) members on Lt. Col. White's thread is to make the BDU the new corporate field uniform upon the adoption on the ABU, and phase out the BBDU.  This will give us a more uniform appearance with all members in a green military uniform. 

As to the cost in the long term I don't think good BDUs will cost any more than good BBDUs.  That the cops use the BBDU it does not fly long term.  1) Cops use several colors black, blue, brown, urban and woodland camo BDU. 2) Cops will be changing to the new "ACU" cut field uniforms because they also use body armor. 3) Cops will be changing to the new "digital camo styles" because they are new "high speed low drag" look.

So what do you'all think: 

ABU and BBDU or ABU and BDU and why?

[Hawk200]

One suggestion to give us a more uniform appearance that has been made by several (me for one) members on Lt. Col. White's thread is to make the BDU the new corporate field uniform upon the adoption on the ABU, and phase out the BBDU.  This will give us a more uniform appearance with all members in a green military uniform. 

As to the cost in the long term I don't think good BDUs will cost any more than good BBDUs.  That the cops use the BBDU it does not fly long term.  1) Cops use several colors black, blue, brown, urban and woodland camo BDU. 2) Cops will be changing to the new "ACU" cut field uniforms because they also use body armor. 3) Cops will be changing to the new "digital camo styles" because they are new "high speed low drag" look.

So what do you'all think: 

ABU and BBDU or ABU and BDU and why?

CAP is not going to be able to adopt the BDU as a corporate uniform "just because the Air Force is done with it". It would still be a military uniform design previously worn by the the Air Force, and as such they make the determination as to whether or not it's allowed. Civil Air Patrol, nor its members, have the option of adopting what they feel like.

Second, that would involve members going out to purchase in the off chance that it did actually get approved. Which would mean throwing away their BBDUs for something else. Not a cost saving measure. Those that have BBDUs, probably have many uniforms that are quite serviceable. They don't need the service life shortened by an unnecessary phase out.

[Eclipse]

CAP is not going to be able to adopt the BDU as a corporate uniform "just because the Air Force is done with it". It would still be a military uniform design previously worn by the the Air Force, and as such they make the determination as to whether or not it's allowed. Civil Air Patrol, nor its members, have the option of adopting what they feel like.

Once the US military, as a whole, phases out the woodland camo BDU, it will no longer be a "military uniform", at least as far as the United States is concerned.  That day, however, is a long way off - something like 2011 or 2012 I believe is the USAF phase-out, not sure on the other services.

Second, that would involve members going out to purchase in the off chance that it did actually get approved. Which would mean throwing away their BBDUs for something else. Not a cost saving measure. Those that have BBDUs, probably have many uniforms that are quite serviceable. They don't need the service life shortened by an unnecessary phase out.

I don't know why anyone would spend money in "anticipation" it might be approved, that's just a waste, although I personally know at least one member (who has more dollars than sense), who says he already owns a full set of ABU's, with what he believes is what will be the approved insignia, for the day they are approved.

I think we'd be better off going to a completely different tactical uniform, the SG-1 uniforms might be a good choice - dark gray BDU's with semi-subdued insignia.  If we all adopted a non-military uniform, we would eliminate overnight all the issues of grooming, etc., all look the same, and could wear whatever insignia we wanted (within some reason).

Bottom on "looking like a team"? Until you >ISSUE< uniforms at either no cost, or included in the registration fees, members will always have options, and some will choose to exercise those options.

[Hawk200]

CAP is not going to be able to adopt the BDU as a corporate uniform "just because the Air Force is done with it". It would still be a military uniform design previously worn by the the Air Force, and as such they make the determination as to whether or not it's allowed. Civil Air Patrol, nor its members, have the option of adopting what they feel like.

Once the US military, as a whole, phases out the woodland camo BDU, it will no longer be a "military uniform", at least as far as the United States is concerned.  That day, however, is a long way off - something like 2011 or 2012 I believe is the USAF phase-out, not sure on the other services.

Many people have wanted khakis for CAP. If it's no longer a military uniform, why aren't we wearing it now? Also, OD/jungle fatigues are no longer a military uniform, why aren't we wearing them?

Trying to keep woodland BDUs will be a sure sign of an organization that isn't moving forward. I seriously doubt that woodlands will remain as a coporate uniform. Besides, the Air Force isn't stupid, they'll know that if it got adopted as the "corporate" uniform, everyone is gonna want subdued insignia, and they'll tell us that they know.

I believe that the Air Force may have a little more pull on our corporate uniforms than their official policy of "We don't care." We need to be careful on what we try to do. "He who shall not be named" created his own uniform, and the appearance presented was of CAP as an autonomous organization. It didn't fly. Trying to adopt the woodland as corporate is going to be far more trouble than it's worth.

Something that most people don't seem to think about is the fact that the new utilities in use by the military aren't just about the camo. The uniforms are more practical, more comfortable, more useful than the BDU. Why do you want to wear outdated old-school uniform designs when the new stuff just works better? It's an example of people wanting the warrior look, even if they have to go with an old, broke down and tired design. They think it looks cool, but to outsiders it looks outdated. And looking "aged" doesn't exactly inspire confidence in people.

Second, that would involve members going out to purchase in the off chance that it did actually get approved. Which would mean throwing away their BBDUs for something else. Not a cost saving measure. Those that have BBDUs, probably have many uniforms that are quite serviceable. They don't need the service life shortened by an unnecessary phase out.

I don't know why anyone would spend money in "anticipation" it might be approved, that's just a waste, although I personally know at least one member (who has more dollars than sense), who says he already owns a full set of ABU's, with what he believes is what will be the approved insignia, for the day they are approved.

A perfect example of jumping the gun. Many people do it. There was a major in Alaska that went and bought the then new USAF service dress with the officer sleeve rank. She put gold stripes on the sleeve, citing the premise that the AF would follow the CG Aux practice at the time where they wore silver officer rank where the CG wore gold (or maybe it was the other way around). At the time, the AF was still testing the officer sleeve rank. So she showed up with an AF service coat, and gold sleeve rank. I'm betting you can easily imagine the reactions.

I think we'd be better off going to a completely different tactical uniform, the SG-1 uniforms might be a good choice - dark gray BDU's with semi-subdued insignia.  If we all adopted a non-military uniform, we would eliminate overnight all the issues of grooming, etc., all look the same, and could wear whatever insignia we wanted (within some reason).

Bottom on "looking like a team"? Until you >ISSUE< uniforms at either no cost, or included in the registration fees, members will always have options, and some will choose to exercise those options.

I don't see a need for dark colors at all, although I see your reasoning behind the SG-1 team uniform concept. I wouldn't go with the original designs, but there are outfits available that are drastically improved in both concept and function. 5.11 series clothing, and many of the associated "clones" are perfect examples.

Although many go for tactical and military looks, there are practical reasons for organizations with our missions to wear them. They have plenty of pockets for minor things, and they're usually designed to carry stuff such as backpaks and load bearing gear. They're designed to be part of an ensemble. Many of the early utility designs weren't so utilitarian.

[davedove]

the SG-1 uniforms might be a good choice

Do we get the zat guns too?

[SStradley]

the SG-1 uniforms might be a good choice

Do we get the zat guns too?

Just don't shoot me three times.

[SARMedTech]

I work with a state disaster medical response team. We have one uniform--BDUs. Since the group was founded in 1999, black BDUs have been mandated with most members choosing either Propper or Tru-Spec. Right now we are in a transition period between black and khaki so as to be more uniform with the other disaster medical teams around the country. The mandatory transition will occur in 2011 with both uniforms being allowed until then. Cotton twill or poly/cotton ripstops are both allowed at the members discretion.

Except for command staff and our warrant and chief warrant officers, all members where the exact same uniform (with the exception of head gear which can be a patrol cap, boonie, low rise baseball cap or stocking cap as weather dictates). The insignia are all the same: team patch on left sleeve with specialty rocker underneath. "Reverse" flag on right sleeve Team name above left pocket (IMERT) and last name and certification/specialty (EMT, Commo, Logistics, etc) above the right pocket. Depending on the length of your last name, some (including me) wear the specialty tape separately above the name tape. Command staff is designated by either cloth or metal insignia worn on both collars. The "Enlisteds" wear nothing on their collar except those who have been issued a Presidential or Gubernatorial unit commendation pin and these are only worn by the members who were on the team at the time the commendation was given. We dont do the since you are on the team and we have the commendation we all wear it deal. State of Illinois/DOPH vertically oriented photo IDs are worn either attached to one of the top BDU blouse pockets, the collar or on some type of lanyard. ANYTHING else to be affixed to the uniform MUST be approved by either the DOPH or the executive committee. I believe that our medical director may wear a caduceus on his collar but I couldnt swear to it. Black T-shirts are worn under the BDUs with the team logo on the front left breast and IMERT in 4" letters across the back. There is some variation  in boots but most are wearing the 8" Bates side zip EMS boot.  This uniform is worn for all occasions formal, work parties, etc and most members maintain a set of BDUs that are pressed and creased for "appearance important" events. We do have a class A uniform which is identical to that worn by the USPHS except the sleeve cuff braid is light blue instead of yellow.  It is not mandatory as of this date due to its high cost and right now only command staff has them, but any member may buy one if he or she chooses.

The only variations are: a cold weather down filled "ski vest", black in color. BDUs worn with or without the blouse, a black or khaki "tactical" vest, M-65 field coat with patches or a 3 in 1 parka and a black mock turtleneck with IMERT printed on the collar either under the BDU blouse or by itself in place of the t-shirt. We are also introducing a grey t-shirt of a lighter weight for warm weather duty. BDU sleeves may be worn all the way down in which case they must be buttoned, rolled up about 4 inches from the wrist or "zip" rolled above the elbow in either the Navy/Marine "gunny roll" or the Coast Guard style in which the cuff is rolled down over the other material for a more finished look, which is how I wear mine in hot weather.

You'd be surprised how little controversy or bickering we have over uniform issues.  We even have a "team store" where these items can be purchased. And in terms of looking like a team, I was recently as a meeting and it was nice to look down the conference table and see the same uniform all the way down.

[Dragoon]

But  some will play the cost card - claiming they can get real BDUs or ABUs cheaper or for free.

And cheaper or free is a bad thing? I'll stick with cheaper or free. You want to open your wallet and buy me a set, I'll wear it. I spend my money, I want the most bang for the buck. I'm still using BDU's that were issued to me when I joined the Guard. You'd have me throw those away and buy new stuff because you don't like the military uniforms.

Besides, putting cadets in ABU, and seniors in blue isn't uniform at all. When you remove the association between the two, then the uniform concept fails.

While cost is a factor, YOUR cost isn't.  After all, there's some guy somewhere claiming "I've already got hunter's camouflage.  I don't want to buy BDUs.  You want to open your wallet and buy me a set, I'll wear it."

There's another guy claiming the same thing about his USMC BDU Cap.  Or his brown hunter's boots.

In a few years, you'll probably have to open your wallet and buy ABUs or BBDUs anyway.

The points is, while cost is a factor, it ain't the only factor.  Uniformity is a concern as well.  They have to be balanced.  Because if it was all about cost, we'd all just wear whatever we had handy...

[SARMedTech]

I also forgot to mention the esprit d'corps that is gained from the same uniform WORN uniformly and the fact that are uniform regs are simplified eliminates the need for "corrective actions" from fubar'd uniform wear.

[SStradley]

But  some will play the cost card - claiming they can get real BDUs or ABUs cheaper or for free.

And cheaper or free is a bad thing? I'll stick with cheaper or free. You want to open your wallet and buy me a set, I'll wear it. I spend my money, I want the most bang for the buck. I'm still using BDU's that were issued to me when I joined the Guard. You'd have me throw those away and buy new stuff because you don't like the military uniforms.

Besides, putting cadets in ABU, and seniors in blue isn't uniform at all. When you remove the association between the two, then the uniform concept fails.

While cost is a factor, YOUR cost isn't.  After all, there's some guy somewhere claiming "I've already got hunter's camouflage.  I don't want to buy BDUs.  You want to open your wallet and buy me a set, I'll wear it."

There's another guy claiming the same thing about his USMC BDU Cap.  Or his brown hunter's boots.

In a few years, you'll probably have to open your wallet and buy ABUs or BBDUs anyway.

The points is, while cost is a factor, it ain't the only factor.  Uniformity is a concern as well.  They have to be balanced.  Because if it was all about cost, we'd all just wear whatever we had handy...

Well said. "While cost is a factor, YOUR cost isn't".

[SARMedTech]

One suggestion to give us a more uniform appearance that has been made by several (me for one) members on Lt. Col. White's thread is to make the BDU the new corporate field uniform upon the adoption on the ABU, and phase out the BBDU.  This will give us a more uniform appearance with all members in a green military uniform. 

As to the cost in the long term I don't think good BDUs will cost any more than good BBDUs.  That the cops use the BBDU it does not fly long term.  1) Cops use several colors black, blue, brown, urban and woodland camo BDU. 2) Cops will be changing to the new "ACU" cut field uniforms because they also use body armor. 3) Cops will be changing to the new "digital camo styles" because they are new "high speed low drag" look.

So what do you'all think: 

ABU and BBDU or ABU and BDU and why?

CAP is not going to be able to adopt the BDU as a corporate uniform "just because the Air Force is done with it". It would still be a military uniform design previously worn by the the Air Force, and as such they make the determination as to whether or not it's allowed. Civil Air Patrol, nor its members, have the option of adopting what they feel like.

Second, that would involve members going out to purchase in the off chance that it did actually get approved. Which would mean throwing away their BBDUs for something else. Not a cost saving measure. Those that have BBDUs, probably have many uniforms that are quite serviceable. They don't need the service life shortened by an unnecessary phase out.

With all due respect, the AF doesnt hold a patent on woodland camo. It is used by military, paramilitary and police organizations all over the world.

Ive been away from the forums for awhile but it seems impossible to believe that we are still having this same conversation. As far as members who say they would quit if they had to wear BBDUs as seniors, let em go.  Obviously they are in CAP for the wrong reasons. The proper reason is service, the wrong one is ego and looking high speed. I know alot of SMs who enjoy the respect and attention they get in public when they are wearing BDUs. But I can tell you that since joining a DMAT team, the general public still has the same admiration for the uniform, even though we are wearing khakis. I was recently at Union Station in Chicago which is were alot of Navy personnel travel to and from Great Lakes. While I was waiting for my train, I had no fewer than a dozen Navy NCOs and officers come up, introduce themselves and many of them give me an invitation to pay a visit to GL any time like.

As Stonewall has said so many times, its not hard to wear a uniform properly. I take great pride in my appearance while in uniform. I never need a shave, my hair is always well groomed, I dont slouch and I make an effort to hold a military bearing. As Ive said before, we recently changed from black BDUs to khaki to be more in line with other DMAT team across the country. Except for the teams specific "logo" team patch worn on the left sleeve and the color of the individual teams t-shirts, you couldnt tell us apart at 50 ft.

CAP members want to be taken seriously. If thats the case stop the complaining about the uniforms, get together on one uniform (the BBDU so all can wear it, or another color like khaki, OD or HRT grey) be proud of it, wear it with pride and move on. Ive recommended joining CAP to a few of my team members and they come to this forum and read the constant jack-jawing about uniforms and they are really put off. Just make a decision on one uniform service wide and get on with it. There is nothing that makes a team more effective than esprit d'corps and the constant bickering as well as the different uniform do nothing to help that esprit along.

[Hawk200]

As far as members who say they would quit if they had to wear BBDUs as seniors, let em go.  Obviously they are in CAP for the wrong reasons. The proper reason is service, the wrong one is ego and looking high speed. I know alot of SMs who enjoy the respect and attention they get in public when they are wearing BDUs.

That post may not outright say it, but it kinda leads into a viewpoint I'm seeing lately. That viewpoint being that since I like to wear military uniforms, then I'm in for the wrong reasons.

I came into CAP to serve my community, work with cadets, and pass on some of the military knowledge I've gained over the years. But according to some people, since I'm in a military uniform, I'm in for the wrong reasons. Or because I don't want to buy anything new because someone else thinks that CAP needs to minimize or disassociate themselves from the military. If I don't agree, then I've got an ego problem, and am in for the wrong reason.

To a few, it's OK to be part of a team, as long as I follow their personal desires to demilitarize CAP. But a few of those same people threaten to quit if they would have to wear something more military in appearance. Seems hypocritical to me.

Many of the people I see with this viewpoint probably wouldn't have joined the original CAP. The original where people joined us because they couldn't be in the military. People that embraced the military aspects, wore military uniforms, and then served with distinction. A few lost their lives. But since they embraced the military aspect, they were in for the wrong reasons.

Another point: If you want any respect as an organization, you need to both look and be high speed. And look sloppy or cheap doesn't present that. There are some that just want to be taken seriously. Problem is that they won't be regardless of any uniform they wear.

[Dragoon]

I would say that anyone who would quit CAP simply over the choice of uniform, be it more or less military than what they'd like, is probably not a guy I want on my team.

[Hawk200]

I would say that anyone who would quit CAP simply over the choice of uniform, be it more or less military than what they'd like, is probably not a guy who I want on my team.

Not my point. I'm seeing regular opinions that people choosing to wear a military uniform are in for the wrong reasons. The reasons don't seem to matter. Just that military attire is wrong.

These same people threaten to quit if they had to wear something more military. Hence the hypocrisy.

You wanna wear BBDU's or a blue flightsuit, or a CSU, fine with me. Just wear them right.

Which is another problem some of the anti-military sentiment seems to have a problem doing. Some seem to want to ditch the military uniforms because they don't have what it takes or just choose not to wear any uniform correctly. Or with any sense of dignity for that matter.

The major problem is that civilization judges based on appearance, and there are people that don't make the grade or choose not to, and resent the fact that they don't meet a certain standard. So they attempt to abolish the standard.

I think some people think that if there are no military uniforms, then they won't be held to a standard of presentable appearance. Which, in itself, is a joke.

If these underachievers managed to get the military uniforms done away with, they would still fall short. And then the resentment would change to against those that still maintain bearing and high standards for their appearance. Actions that for current and prior military personnel is simple habit.

Let's be blunt: I know there are people that resent my military background. The reasons are different. Some couldn't serve for medical reasons. Others because they didn't make that choice at the right time. Some for reasons they choose not to mention. Many absolutely hate the fact that the new guy has more ribbons and badges than they do. Which a corporate uniform would handily eliminate, wouldn't it?. The reasons are varied, but the resentment is there.

[Dragoon]

We have to remember that a fair number of the CAP distinctive uniforms are rather military.

The TPU is.

The BBDU is (and would be more so if the hat and outerwear were mandatory)

The Blue Utility/Flightsuit are ((and would be more so if the hat and outerwear were mandatory)

The truly non-military ones are the golf shirt (no rank, no hat, no jacket) and the blazer (just a suit with a nametag)

You're right - some guys just want to wear whatever they want.  That's bad.

Some are looking to dodge the military side of CAP.  We need to deal with that.  Either by demanding a "military" environment, transitioning to a civilian EMS environment, or by accepting a more relaxed "semi-military environment."  Any of these are  fine with me.  But claiming to be military while letting folks opt out pretty much proves we're not military at all.  After all, you don't see any USAF guys saying, "no thanks, I'll just grow a beard and wear a golf shirt to work today."

Behind the uniform debate is a battle for the soul of CAP's culture.  What are we?   Civilian or military?  A hybrid?  What are the minimum standards of conduct?  ARE there standards of conduct?

Or are we so hard up for members we keep inventing new choices on what to wear and how to act just so we don't lose anyone?

[Hawk200]

Or are we so hard up for members we keep inventing new choices on what to wear and how to act just so we don't lose anyone?

I think you hit the nail on the head here. We've dropped standards to grow numbers. Ironically, some branches of the military have too. And they are having problems. In some people's haste to be non-military, they refuse to learn some of the lessons that the miltary has.

We have had people come to meetings that don't want to be a part because they don't want to wear any uniform. But they do anyway, in one way or another.

I remember going to a movie theater, and was waiting outside one particular screen. Three teenagers walked past, one was talking about how she couldn't be in the military because of the uniforms. The others were nodding in approval. The irony? Each of the three was wearing a Rockies ballcap (the same colors), a purple plaid flannel shirt, black T-shirt, blue jeans (all with the same level of fade), and white high tops. I laughed. They gave me a strange look, but kept going.

It's ironic how so many people fight uniformity, but do it unconciously. How do we show them that we're just a variation on a theme? Or that it's really not all that hard?

So many people want to belong to something, but chafe at what it takes. It's not about wearing the uniform, it's about showing them to take pride in it. When you take pride in being part of the team, it makes all the difference.

[RiverAux]

Unfortunately, there is a combination of "civilian" CAP members as well as "Real Military" members on this board who are in favor of moving CAP members away from the military uniforms for very different reasons, but they have the same goal.  An odd combination, but it is there. 

I don't think most CAP members in the real world think about it in that fashion, but it is obvious that most adult members are moving more and more towards wearing the civilian clothes.  Personally I think it is because some are too lazy to want to wear a real uniform properly while others do it as a way of having to avoid saluting, etc. that goes with the military uniforms. 

[Duke Dillio]

I have had varied experiences with uniforms and attitudes in my service to CAP.  I can tell you that really only one thing bothers me.  When I show up to a REDCAP or SAREX, it has always been my opinion that rank should stay at the door.  I have been in units in the past where someone thinks that SAR time is D&C time.  I can't tell you how greatly this annoys me.  I don't want cadets saluting me in the field.  It just feels odd.  This is why I like the CAWG's GT uniform.  COWG had the same thing but ended up losing it about the same time that the COWG CC was relieved which was the worst possible thing that I have ever seen in my time with CAP, but that's another topic.  I would not be opposed to the removal of all rank on uniforms used during missions.  This won't happen though.  If I am in charge of a particular mission or activity, I generally tell the people involved that D&C can go on during meetings and color guard practice, but I don't want to see it in the field.

In the Army, we used to joke about how things went all the time.  It seemed that every other week or so we would have some sort of inspection.  When we came out of the field, the first week or so was spent painting, shining, cleaning, and inspecting all of our equipment.  The old joke was that should we ever encounter the enemy, our actions would be to break down everything and prepare for an inspection.  While I understand why we cleaned everything, it did seem to get old after awhile.

I will never understand all of the politics involved with the uniform issues in CAP.  I will never understand why people want to wear berets all the time.  My personal response would be to let them wear one in a rainstorm, in howling winds, or on really hot sunny days.  This will deter them from wanting to wear them all the time.  Even the guys that I knew from the "special units" said that they would rather have worn a BDU cap versus their berets.  Just one example of something I will never understand.  Until then, I will simply follow 39-1 as best I can and teach my cadets to the best of my ability.

[Eclipse]

...I will simply follow 39-1 as best I can and teach my cadets to the best of my ability.

That's all any of us can expect to do - the best we can.

The academic bantering of 10 or 20 people here is not reflective of the majority of CAP...

[Hawk200]

I will never understand why people want to wear berets all the time. 

When I was younger, I thought berets were "cool". As I got older, I learned that a beret wouldn't really define me as a person, or make me any better than without one. So I got over it.

Eventually, I ended up in an Army component. And I grew to hate the thing. I get "corrected" on occasion for wearing a soft cap. What strikes me funny is that most of the personnel correcting me are the ones that are less than special anyway. To them, the beret is something that defines them as a soldier. Personally, I believe that being a soldier isn't about the clothes. And a beret doesn't make anyone "hi-speed".

It may be wrong, but I don't think very highly of anyone that considers a beret as anything other than a hat (even if it is a unique one).

[jimmydeanno]

When I was younger, I thought berets were "cool".

I got over beret's pretty quick once I saw the Griswolds wearing them in National Lampoon's European Vacation...

[Hawk200]

Unfortunately, there is a combination of "civilian" CAP members as well as "Real Military" members on this board who are in favor of moving CAP members away from the military uniforms for very different reasons, but they have the same goal. 

What I find ironic is that current thought, compared to the history of the organization.

Seems like a lot of people want to wear what they want, but with the ability to say "We're with the Air Force". An unusual dichotomy. People don't want the trappings, but they do want the "cred".

As far as the public is concerned, if you don't dress like the Air Force (which some of our people do), then they consider you posers. I've dealt with plenty of posers of various types, and I know that they can be a serious detriment. Getting lumped in with them is bad news for us.

[SStradley]

As far as the public is concerned, if you don't dress like the Air Force (which some of our people do), then they consider you posers. I've dealt with plenty of posers of various types, and I know that they can be a serious detriment. Getting lumped in with them is bad news for us.

Hawk,

I am confused by the above.  Did you mean to say that if a CAP member is wearing a CAP Uniform (ie: BBDU) then the public thinks of them as "posers"?  If so a poser as what?  I can see the public viewing someone who is in a USAF uniform and they are busting out (to fat) of it, being view as a poser.  But if you wear a CAP uniform and represent yourself as a CAP member then that is what you are and there can be no mistake.

Of course someone can wear the corporate uniforms in such a way to discredit CAP just as much as the can discredit both the USAF and CAP in the USAF uniforms.

[Hawk200]

As far as the public is concerned, if you don't dress like the Air Force (which some of our people do), then they consider you posers. I've dealt with plenty of posers of various types, and I know that they can be a serious detriment. Getting lumped in with them is bad news for us.

Hawk,

I am confused by the above.  Did you mean to say that if a CAP member is wearing a CAP Uniform (ie: BBDU) then the public thinks of them as "posers"?  If so a poser as what?  I can see the public viewing someone who is in a USAF uniform and they are busting out (to fat) of it, being view as a poser.  But if you wear a CAP uniform and represent yourself as a CAP member then that is what you are and there can be no mistake.

Some people consider us posers anyway, regardless of how we present ourselves. In those cases, there really is nothing we can do. But for the most part, people wearing uniforms when it's obvious that it's just another set of clothes to them is where people can tell the difference.

I was referencing some of the other types that are in CAP that present themselves as Special Forces, or some kind of Federal agents. We have those types too.

Outside of the military, I see the types that pretend to be cops, or constables, or bounty hunters, or Federal agents. Unfortunately, some of our internal "posers" get lumped in with them. And by association, the rest of us do too.

Of course someone can wear the corporate uniforms in such a way to discredit CAP just as much as the can discredit both the USAF and CAP in the USAF uniforms.

This is why it's important to present ourselves in a proper manner. Sloppy uniforms, excessive unneeded field gear, unauthorized uniform items all tend to present the wrong image.

Have you ever noticed that most of the types that claim to be Special Forces, Delta Force, and similar never wear things that those teams actually wear? The Special Ops teams tend to be a lot more subdued in their behaviour and appearance than the ones claiming to be, but never were.

I think a few of our members don't want military style, so they don't get held to a certain standard. It takes a little work to walk the walk, and talk the talk, but it becomes habit after a while. Some just don't want to bother with it.

[SARMedTech]

As far as the public is concerned, if you don't dress like the Air Force (which some of our people do), then they consider you posers. I've dealt with plenty of posers of various types, and I know that they can be a serious detriment. Getting lumped in with them is bad news for us.

Hawk,

I am confused by the above.  Did you mean to say that if a CAP member is wearing a CAP Uniform (ie: BBDU) then the public thinks of them as "posers"?  If so a poser as what?  I can see the public viewing someone who is in a USAF uniform and they are busting out (to fat) of it, being view as a poser.  But if you wear a CAP uniform and represent yourself as a CAP member then that is what you are and there can be no mistake.

Some people consider us posers anyway, regardless of how we present ourselves. In those cases, there really is nothing we can do. But for the most part, people wearing uniforms when it's obvious that it's just another set of clothes to them is where people can tell the difference.

I was referencing some of the other types that are in CAP that present themselves as Special Forces, or some kind of Federal agents. We have those types too.

Outside of the military, I see the types that pretend to be cops, or constables, or bounty hunters, or Federal agents. Unfortunately, some of our internal "posers" get lumped in with them. And by association, the rest of us do too.

Of course someone can wear the corporate uniforms in such a way to discredit CAP just as much as the can discredit both the USAF and CAP in the USAF uniforms.

This is why it's important to present ourselves in a proper manner. Sloppy uniforms, excessive unneeded field gear, unauthorized uniform items all tend to present the wrong image.

Have you ever noticed that most of the types that claim to be Special Forces, Delta Force, and similar never wear things that those teams actually wear? The Special Ops teams tend to be a lot more subdued in their behaviour and appearance than the ones claiming to be, but never were.

I think a few of our members don't want military style, so they don't get held to a certain standard. It takes a little work to walk the walk, and talk the talk, but it becomes habit after a while. Some just don't want to bother with it.

In fact, most of those who claim to have been or be special operators of whatever sort also usually use garbage that a true spec-op wouldnt use in a million years or would have been issued and dumped as soon as they were out of sight. There was a recent documentary on about Green Berets operating in AFGN and except for the subdued American flags, the looked more like well worn mountain guides than soldiers (I mean no disrespect, just an observation). Heavy unkempt beards, long hair, etc. Fact is,the few that I have met and have actually been able to confirm them as operators talk very little about their military service at all.

I also think the poser attitude, having all the good toys and most expensive equipment and carry a Kestrel for some unknown reason all wears off after they have had to ruck 5 miles to a crash site a few times. Once they have had to get their butts in the mud more than an handful of times, it quickly becomes all about practicality, and I can speak for experience on this. When I first got into SAR (not in CAP) I had to have the slickest, highest speed everything. After about 10 years, I carry and wear the bare minimum for the operation and could give a flip about how I look, at least when in the field. The unfortunate part about the posers is that until they learn what happens and what its all about once the rubber meets the road, the irritate and slow everyone else down and then those among us who have been at it awhile end up having to bear their share of the load because they have crapped out. I worked years ago with a SAR EMT who just had to have a STOMP medical pack. That lasted all of about one operations. He now carries a small ALICE, minus the frame.

[Eclipse]

I also think the poser attitude, having all the good toys and most expensive equipment and carry a Kestrel for some unknown reason...

YMMV, but I wouldn't leave a mission base without my kestral - its saved my life at least twice - once actually carrying me out of the woods to safety


Linky: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kestrel

In seriousness, some of the poser attitude is propagated by the same leaders who refuse to have "uncomfortable" conversations, some of it should be addressed in day-1 training, and some of it is part of the learning process.

[SARMedTech]

I used the Kestrel as an example. I own one myself and its a constant in my pack. I guess I was using to illustrate folks carrying gear they have no idea how to use.

[SStradley]

I used the Kestrel as an example. I own one myself and its a constant in my pack. I guess I was using to illustrate folks carrying gear they have no idea how to use.

SARMedTech,

I never cared for the shape of the Kestrel, but my kit has a Lightfoot DA.  Would I be a poser if I took my Ultratech on a SAR mission?  If I have my dress pants on I have a UTX-70.  If it is Jeans or BDUs then the aformentened Lightfoot or a UMS (which is just a LUDT with a safety).

Tell us the story of the Kestrel saving your life.  Did the shape play a roll?

[flyguy06]

I say have two types of uniforms. The USAF Blue uniform and or BDU's (cadets are not required to wear BDU's) and the civilian grey pants and white aviator shirt for those that dont meet the weight and heigth standards.
Forget about the other uniforms.

[SARMedTech]

I used the Kestrel as an example. I own one myself and its a constant in my pack. I guess I was using to illustrate folks carrying gear they have no idea how to use.

SARMedTech,

I never cared for the shape of the Kestrel, but my kit has a Lightfoot DA.  Would I be a poser if I took my Ultratech on a SAR mission?  If I have my dress pants on I have a UTX-70.  If it is Jeans or BDUs then the aformentened Lightfoot or a UMS (which is just a LUDT with a safety).

Tell us the story of the Kestrel saving your life.  Did the shape play a roll?

Im not sure what you mean, Major. Ive yet to have the Kestrel save my life, I was simply using it as an example of pricey equipment that some members buy and dont have the slightest idea how to use.

[pixelwonk]

topic please.

[SStradley]

I used the Kestrel as an example. I own one myself and its a constant in my pack. I guess I was using to illustrate folks carrying gear they have no idea how to use.

SARMedTech,

I never cared for the shape of the Kestrel, but my kit has a Lightfoot DA.  Would I be a poser if I took my Ultratech on a SAR mission?  If I have my dress pants on I have a UTX-70.  If it is Jeans or BDUs then the aformentened Lightfoot or a UMS (which is just a LUDT with a safety).

Tell us the story of the Kestrel saving your life.  Did the shape play a roll?

Im not sure what you mean, Major. Ive yet to have the Kestrel save my life, I was simply using it as an example of pricey equipment that some members buy and dont have the slightest idea how to use.

SARMedTech,

Just playing with the MicroTech theme.  Also it was Eclipse who used a Kestrel to save his life not you. My bad.

Tedda,

Sorry for the topic drift.  I will try to do better.

On topic content:  I think the root word of Uniform is uniform.  If we don't look uniform then we don't look like we are in Uniform  or we look like a "pick-up sandlot team".

[Dragoon]

Yup.  But as long as we focus our uniforms on "what makes the individual look/feel good" instead of "what makes the team look/feel good", we'll continue to have the problem.

Optional standards are not standards at all.